Denver Broncos Thread

Stev_o · 10-08-2011 2:13pm #1

Probably the only decent QB controversy so far this year pits Orton vs Tebow in a battle of who will be Denver's number one. A very strange situation with Tebow being in charge of pre lockout workouts with every indication that Orton would be traded away to Miami once a CBA was signed.

Didn't take long for that trade to break down and suddenly Orton went from unwanted to Number 1.

Now obviously each guy has his own strengths and weaknesses. But what is the general opinion of people on this board about the whole situation? What camp do people stand in?

Personally I support Orton, Denver (now offence to any fans

) is quite a poor team overall. Brandon Lloyd their star WR made a breakout season WITH Orton throwing him the ball not Tebow. If Tebow had of started last season would Llyod have made the Pro Bowl? It's not like Denver's receiving corp's is that great and it doesn't help when your running game is non existent when your star RB is injured for most of the year.

This is a team that is falling apart due to it's crap rushing game and a woeful defence that can't get to the QB, IMO it is not down to QB that Denver is struggling.

Amirani · 10-08-2011 2:29pm

I'm going with Orton too. Tebow can sit and continue to learn, it won't do him any harm. The likes of Rodgers, Cassel etc. had a good few years learning behind a proven QB in Favre and Brady. Tebow is even more raw than these guys and still needs a lot of learning in my opinion.

Orton is a proven starter in the NFL. He'll give your receivers the best chance of catching balls and thus the best chance of you winning games. I'm still not fully sure that Tebow will make it as an NFL QB but the more learning he can do behind a good Quarterback is gonna increase his chances exponentially.

Denver with Orton have a chance of playoffs in a weak division. Denver with Tebow will probably be picking in the top 5 next year. Then what are they going to do? They're going to rush out and draft a quarterback and they're no better off.

mikemac · 10-08-2011 2:34pm

I dislike all the focus on the QB. Most important position yes but Orton was one their best players last season but the team had a losing season and so the QB gets blamed
I read lots of teams forums and some of their fans are way too harsh on Orton, almost hysterical

Right at this moment if I were John Fox and it's Gameweek One I'd have Orton as starter, best QB on the team

However he has one year left on his deal so you either lock him up or you trade him. If he plays this year and Broncos miss the playoffs then you're back to where you are now and still don't know enough about Tebow.

If I was Miami I certainly think he's worth a third and you may get him for a fourth. I don't know why the deal fell through but I think it may still go ahead

Regarding their running game and defence, no better man then John Fox to work on this and the signings of two DT's and Von Miller and McGahee will plug their main holes
Dumbervill back too.

Broncos will have a good season and a decent shot at the playoffs

Juan Pablo · 10-08-2011 2:36pm

Orton is a solid starting QB and was too valuable to trade for Denver vs what they were going to get from Miami. I can see him being the No1 for the year, which will upset those in Denver who want Tebow time. Short section on Sports Centre last night regarding this, felt that Tebow isn't there yet. With Orton starting, the like of Brandon Llyods stock has risen from a fantasy perspective.

Stev_o · 10-08-2011 2:42pm

mikemac wrote: »

I dislike all the focus on the QB. Most important position yes but Orton was one their best players last season but the team had a losing season and so the QB gets blamed
I read lots of teams forums and some of their fans are way too harsh on Orton, almost hysterical

Right at this moment if I were John Fox and it's Gameweek One I'd have Orton as starter, best QB on the team

However he has one year left on his deal so you either lock him up or you trade him. If he plays this year and Broncos miss the playoffs then you're back to where you are now and still don't know enough about Tebow.

If I was Miami I certainly think he's worth a third and you may get him for a fourth. I don't know why the deal fell through but I think it may still go ahead

Regarding their running game and defence, no better man then John Fox to work on this and the signings of two DT's and Von Miller and McGahee will plug their main holes
Dumbervill back too.

Broncos will have a good season and a decent shot at the playoffs

Exactly if you look at Denvers stats for last season you'll immediately see the problem lies with the Defence and the Running Game. Their passing stats were some of the best in the League for crying out loud! Think it's just easy to blame a QB when you have a cult following for someone like Tebow sitting behind Orton.

Honestly Tebow to me is a perfect fit for Miami. Miami had it's greatest success running the Wild Cat and here is a QB who can do that by default while giving you a okay passing game.

Peyton Manning · 10-08-2011 2:55pm

Denver's passing game (and Orton's by reasoning) was largely inflated due to the presence of Josh McDaniels. He makes average quarterbacks look good, and good quarterbacks look even better. For me, Kyle Orton is an average QB. I'd be shocked if he put up anywhere near the same numbers as last year if he starts this year.

This is about more than the better player though, and considering everything, I agree with what spiralism said in the free agents/trades thread - Tebow must start. If Orton starts and does well, you have a situation at the end of the season where Orton will likely leave anyway, and the Broncos may not be in a position to pick one of the big 3 QBs in the draft. If he does poorly, then you still have an untested Tebow on the bench and then you've another QB controversy - go with Tebow from 2012 or draft one of the big 3? It makes sense to go with Tebow now. That way, if he does well, congrats - you have your franchise QB. If not, then you draft one of Luck, Jones or Barkley.

AlanPat · 10-08-2011 3:41pm

Denver's problems run so much deeper than QB, until we can stop a team on defence, it wont make a difference who is behind centre.
Having said that I'm a Tebow fan and would like to see him start, nothing against Orton, but the team is a work in progress for the next few years.
I don't see the team getting anywhere near playoff football this season.
Orton isn't the answer long term, he's in the final year of his contract, will be gone after this season. Find out if Tebow is the future, if he is then great, if not, then it's back to the draft.

All McD had to do was come in and sort out the defence, but no, his ego had to bring the whole organisation to it's knees. Thanks. (End Rant).

Chucky the tree · 10-08-2011 5:02pm

Orton is better but I'd go with Tebow. You drafted him number 1, time to find out if he can cut it. If he can't then you'll be in prime position to draft Luck next year.

Chardee MacDennis · 10-08-2011 5:28pm

Tebow might steal a few goal line touchdowns or grab a few first downs with a QB sneak but i dont rate his throwing ability from what i've seen (not very much admittedly) but I honestly think he's not good enough for a starting slot ahead of Orton.

LuckyLloyd · 10-08-2011 6:26pm

Orton is a far better QB than Tebow will ever be.

You don't need to be a Denver insider to realise that Tebow must not have been making the right noises before camp and in practice thus far for him not to be named starter. If he was demonstrating any sort of decent progression he would be in there. On Football Today they implied that Tebow does not exactly have the confidence of the players too.

Tebow is being discussed because he was a god at the college level. His skills do not transfer well, he shouldn't have been drafted in the first round, and he will never be a starting QB in the NFL.

Yeah, maybe Denver should throw him in anyway to get ahead in the Luck sweepstakes, but at the same time if he is looking way off the pace in practice every day, you can't blame them for playing the markedly better player.

LuckyLloyd · 10-08-2011 6:36pm

Rick Reilly being straight up about the whole thing:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6848493

Nice kid, great athlete, blah, blah. Useless QB.

eagle eye · 10-08-2011 10:45pm

I watched all of Tebow's starts last season and I think he definitely deserves his shot at the starting job. Even in the game against the Chargers where he didn't play that well he still inspired all those around him to perform to their very best.

Orton is pretty ordinary with a career QB rating of 79. He has been better under McDaniels but he is still only in the mid 80s during that time, he is awful when pressured. Tebow only got three games last season but in that time he lifted the home crowd, inspired his teammates and played well for the most part.

Now I'm a huge Tebow fan but I'm not one to keep saying a player deserves more opportunities if he hasn't shown anything but Tebow has and he could be a great one.

Any of these so called 'experts' who say differently are idiots in my book. Until he gets a legitimate shot you can't say that.

Peyton Manning · 10-08-2011 11:16pm

The only decent QB controversy? Don't know about that, John Beck vs Rex Grossman has the potential to rival Jimmy vs Timmy's cripple fight in South Park.

tallaghtoutlaws · 10-08-2011 11:32pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Any of these so called 'experts' who say differently are idiots in my book. Until he gets a legitimate shot you can't say that.

What is a legitimate shot in your book?

eagle eye · 10-08-2011 11:56pm

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

What is a legitimate shot in your book?

When he is told he is the starter and its up to himself to keep it. He got the last 3 games last year and based on them I think he certainly deserves that shot now. If you remember Orton played horribly when his OL got worse, Tebow stepped in with that same OL and did pretty well and a lot better than Orton.

Stev_o · 11-08-2011 12:02am

eagle eye wrote: »

When he is told he is the starter and its up to himself to keep it. He got the last 3 games last year and based on them I think he certainly deserves that shot now. If you remember Orton played horribly when his OL got worse, Tebow stepped in with that same OL and did pretty well and a lot better than Orton.

But you admitted it yourself that Orton only looked good because he was in McDaniels system, now obviously McDaniels was fired when Tebow started but that doesn't mean that the play book was suddenly ripped up and a new one made for 4 games.

eagle eye · 11-08-2011 12:45am

Stev_o wrote: »

But you admitted it yourself that Orton only looked good because he was in McDaniels system, now obviously McDaniels was fired when Tebow started but that doesn't mean that the play book was suddenly ripped up and a new one made for 4 games.

I'm saying that when it collapsed under Orton that Tebow stepped in and there was a huge improvement immediately. Not just Tebow but you could see the reaction of the fans to him and the players too. That time when they came back from 17-0 down at halftime to the Texans. He goes running up after scoring the TD to take the lead and celebrates with the D who are going back on the field after the kickoff. They come up with an interception, you gotta give him credit there for livening things up for those guys. Did his actions inspire them? We don't know for sure but I thought at the time that if this was my teammate I'd want to go out and finish the game for him right there and then they did just that.

tallaghtoutlaws · 11-08-2011 12:46am

eagle eye wrote: »

When he is told he is the starter and its up to himself to keep it. He got the last 3 games last year and based on them I think he certainly deserves that shot now. If you remember Orton played horribly when his OL got worse, Tebow stepped in with that same OL and did pretty well and a lot better than Orton.

Played well? Firstly He was average at best. Secondly he looked better than Orton because he had the athletic ability to get away from the pocket but this didn't help his passing game. So the O-line argument doesn't fly.

Thirdly, Take away his running ability and no one would rate him. The only team he put up solid numbers on were the Texans and lets face their secondary is one of the worst in the NFL. In fact his QB rating was only helped by the game he played mid season were he completed 1/1 for 3 yds and a TD giving him a 100% passer rating and a solid QB rating 118 i think.

He is an average passer of the football at best and unless he learns how to use his feet better in the pocket and learn to throw a football better he will always be average and will be worse than Orton.

LuckyLloyd · 11-08-2011 12:55am

EE, do some reading. The consensus from observers is that he has looked really awful in practice thus far, and Orton is miles ahead of him. Infact, there is a good chance that he is third on the depth chart behind Quinn on opening day.

You got to earn a shot. If he is regressing in camp, he doesn't deserve to start. He might sell a ton of jerseys, and he'll always have a following no matter what because of what he achieved in College - but he is not an NFL standard QB.

For reference, ridiculously dominant running college QBs often don't pan out at the next level. Particularly when they don't gain any exposure to a pro style offense.

Tebow is struggling with a 3 step drop, and can't throw real well. All the heart and grit and perfect sound-bytes in the world ain't going to overcome those problems.

LuckyLloyd · 11-08-2011 1:35am

Tom_Brady wrote: »

The only decent QB controversy? Don't know about that, John Beck vs Rex Grossman has the potential to rival Jimmy vs Timmy's cripple fight in South Park.

Sexy Rexy fighting fit!

TaosHum · 11-08-2011 11:02am

Tom_Brady wrote: »

The only decent QB controversy? Don't know about that, John Beck vs Rex Grossman has the potential to rival Jimmy vs Timmy's cripple fight in South Park.

John Beck's finest moment.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDIqcHBkyJs

spiralism · 11-08-2011 1:33pm

I'm of the opinion that Orton is quite a skilled passer and can play to a high level. However i dont know if i rate him as a leader or when the chips are down. Therefore, hes a good/great passer but an average QB.

Having said that, the criticism Orton has come under in the last 9 months or so seems to have really pissed him off if interviews are anything to go by, this could light a fire under him and push him to prove his doubters wrong at all costs.

Tebow cant pass anywhere near as well as him it would seem but is fantastic when the chips are down and a phenomenal leader... a lot will come out in his preseason reps, its what pushed him from third to 2nd string last year, i'd bet he plays very well in his time given and gives Fox and Elway food for thought.

Also, Orton has never finished a season without picking up an injury of some sort, I'd be confident that Tebow gets his shot some way or another. Sure who's to say Orton doesn't get flattened by Ware tonight and get hurt, these things can change very quickly.

Huge Tebow fan, but if Orton justifies his starting slot through his performances then fair play to him and i have his back

Syferus · 11-08-2011 9:44pm

It just smacks of directionless management - if Tebow's so bad, why did they actively flirt with trading Orton only a week ago? Surely Tebow can't have turned an entire front office against him with a few sub-par practices. The safe option is Orton, the option that could re-ignite the Broncos as a franchise is Tebow.

It'd be a shame for the position of quarter-back itself if Tebow never gets a real shot because whatever you say about him he's mold-breaking and he has the potential to change how quarter-backs are evaluated in the future.

tallaghtoutlaws · 11-08-2011 9:53pm

Syferus wrote: »

It'll be a shame for the position of quarter-back itself if Tebow never gets a real shot because whatever you say about him he's mold-breaking and he has the potential to change how quarter-backs are evaluated in the future.

What? Why would it be a shame to the position of QB. Plenty of QBs with high potential coming out of college never got their shot. All of a sudden because its Tim Tebow people are crying over him getting his "chance" or "shot". Right now he is struggling in camp. He struggled at times last season. He is an average passer with a long wind up and cant do basic drop backs for a QB.

To put it simply if Tebow hadn't the same athletic ability or this motivation and character people talk about he wouldn't be a NFL QB. People are basing his shot on things you wouldn't normally associate with QB. Sure a QB needs to be a leader but he also needs to be guess what? A fricking QB and a pro one at that.

As for Denver they will eventually offload Orton and go with Tebow. If they don't Tebow will find a team because there are plenty of team out there stupid enough to think he will win them a bowl.

He will never win a bowl, He will never go to the Hall of Fame and if Denver want to bank on Tebow eventually good for them and the AFC.

Syferus · 11-08-2011 10:01pm

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

What? Why would it be a shame to the position of QB. Plenty of QBs with high potential coming out of college never got their shot. All of a sudden because its Tim Tebow people are crying over him getting his "chance" or "shot". Right now he is struggling in camp. He struggled at times last season. He is an average passer with a long wind up and cant do basic drop backs for a QB.

To put it simply if Tebow hadn't the same athletic ability or this motivation and character people talk about he wouldn't be a NFL QB. People are basing his shot on things you wouldn't normally associate with QB. Sure a QB needs to be a leader but he also needs to be guess what? A fricking QB and a pro one at that.

As for Denver they will eventually offload Orton and go with Tebow. If they don't Tebow will find a team because there are plenty of team out there stupid enough to think he will win them a bowl.

He will never win a bowl, He will never go to the Hall of Fame and if Denver want to bank on Tebow eventually good for them and the AFC.

For fans, and for sports in general, change is usually a good thing. Just like the league itself has mutated from a run-first to a pass-first league players that are outside of the norm can do the same for their positions if successful. A league with more QBs with Tebow's phsyicality and atheticism is hardly going to make for a less exciting prospect - I'm not saying Tebow has nothing to work on.

tallaghtoutlaws · 11-08-2011 10:11pm

Syferus wrote: »

For fans, and for sports in general, change is usually a good thing. Just like the league itself has mutated from a run-first to a pass-first league players that are outside of the norm can do the same for their positions if successful. A league with more QBs with Tebow's phsyicality and atheticism is hardly going to make for a less exciting prospect.

Change? Vick has been doing it for years now. But the difference with Vick and Tebow is that Vicks arm was somewhat pro ready as was his motion and footwork. Vick's downfall is throwing deep accurately and not depending on his feet, although last year he was doing it well.

But this has nothing to do with change. This has to do with whether or not Tebow can play as a QB in the NFL and be good at it.

And you are helping with my argument in what you wrote in bold now here is the BUT to that. Tebow is an average passer.

As for the bit in Italics see Michael Vick, no one said he wasnt exciting either but concerns were whether or not an athletic QB would stand strong in the pocket and throw the football. It took Vick a stint in Jail and Andy Reid to realise how to do it but again Vick already had the ingredients to do it. Tebow doesn't. He lacks the basics to run a pro offense and he is struggling in camp right now.

People are looking at the hype that was Tim Tebow in college and I said it before and I will say it again college football is miles away from the NFL and trying to carry that hype into the Pros is nonsense.

As for getting his shot someone needs to explain this one to me what they mean. He started 3 games last season. He got a shot. And guess what he was average and is doing badly in camp right now.

tallaghtoutlaws · 11-08-2011 10:22pm

This is a good article by Lombardi and I have to agree his time in Denver is done.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82160481/article/tebow-will-fail-in-denver-because-no-one-has-vested-interest?module=HP11_cp

Sponsorship is vital in many sports.

In golf, unless a young player is sponsored -- i.e. has someone covering his expenses while he trains to become a pro -- he has little chance of making it to the PGA Tour on his own. Same in boxing. Someone has to sponsor the potential fighter, paying his way while he trains for the real money fight.

In the world of the NFL, sponsorship is just as critical.

Take the curious case of Tim Tebow in Denver. I believe he has a place in the NFL, but that can only happen when he has the sponsorship of an entire organization. Right now, Tebow does not have that. Why? Let's take a step back in time to remind ourselves how we got here.

This time last year, Tebow was the bright shining star representing the future of the Broncos. Leading up to the 2010 NFL Draft, Tebow was a lightning rod. Every team analyzed him and whether you believed he would be a first-round pick or not, everyone had a passionate opinion. As an organization, Denver seemed unified in its love for Tebow, trading up to take him 25th overall, higher than most people expected. At Tebow's introductory press conference, current general manager Brian Xanders was full of smiles, praising the work of Tebow and explaining why he would be a perfect fit for the Broncos. Then-head coach Josh McDaniels also was in full support of Tebow, sharing his vision of what offense would maximize his skill set.

Teaching Tebow the system in Year 1 was critical, as well as working on his mechanics and his ability to make accurate throws. No one claimed it would be easy, and no one thought Tebow could be an instant starter. But with his highly acclaimed work habits and competitive spirit, Broncos brass believed it would be just a matter of time before Tebow emerged as Denver's football future.

The critical mistake the Broncos made was not understanding the total commitment they were making as an organization to Tebow. Drafting Tebow was not like drafting any other quarterback. Everyone, from the owner on down, should have been aware of the totality of the pick.

That wasn't the case, though. Seven months after picking Tebow, the Broncos fired the man who drafted him, McDaniels, and then others in the organization came forward to say they never liked the pick. Firing McDaniels is clearly the owner's right, but constant changes in the coaching staff means constant changes with the players. When McDaniels walked out of the building, so did Tebow's sponsorship. Any chance Tebow would become the next star quarterback in Denver was gone.

The Broncos wanted to make their fan base happy, and former Hall of Fame quarterback John Elway wanted to become part of the organization. Turning the football operation over to Elway accomplished both. Elway is now making all the decisions needed to guide the fortunes of the franchise. With Xanders remaining in his same job, the Broncos tried to pick up the pieces from a horrible season.

Elway was not even on the job one day when the Tebow bailout started. When asked about whether he viewed Tebow as the future of the Broncos, he honestly answered that he was not his kind of quarterback. But later he retracted that statement, expressing warm support for Tebow. Elway has every right to build this team in his vision, his style and his understanding of what it will take to win a Super Bowl. His lack of commitment to Tebow is not a criticism, but rather a reflection of how little understanding the Broncos had when they allowed McDaniels to make the pick.

Instead of finding a potential young offensive head coach who could see a vision for Tebow, Elway chose an established NFL head coach, John Fox, to bring stability and leadership to the organization. Don't blame Fox for not jumping on the Tebow train, either, because it was not his pick. Fox retained Mike McCoy as the offensive coordinator, which, in theory, would be good for Tebow but in reality does not appear that way. McCoy was not a part of the process that led to drafting Tebow and has no vested interest in the pick.

Without total team sponsorship, the Tebow pick won't work in Denver. It won't work because no one has a vested interest in making it work. It won't work because Fox wants to win now and worry about the future later. No one remains who will lay claim to agreeing with the pick. The only guy who did was fired in December.

Now, Tebow is fighting for his back-up job with Brady Quinn. He's clearly not in competition with starter Kyle Orton, who the front office put on the trade block before camp started. However, Orton now is firmly in place and has since been told he won't be traded. Does anyone in Denver know what they really want to do?

Back in 1987, when working for the 49ers, coach Bill Walsh traded for Steve Young, a journeyman quarterback with the Buccaneers. Sending a mid-round pick and some of Eddie DeBartolo's cash, Walsh saw something in Young that warranted his sponsorship. Most of the league laughed, including some in his own organization. But Walsh had a vision, a plan, and the owner's full support to make the trade, as well as the time to determine if his vision was correct.

What happened to Young is what has to happen to Tebow. He will need to get traded to a coach willing to sponsor him and an owner willing to give the coach time. It won't happen in Denver, because there is no one who wants to be burdened with the pick -- including the ones in the room when the pick was made.

LuckyLloyd · 12-08-2011 12:06am

Syferus wrote: »

It'd be a shame for the position of quarter-back itself if Tebow never gets a real shot because whatever you say about him he's mold-breaking and he has the potential to change how quarter-backs are evaluated in the future.

I'm sorry, but this post smacks of an ignorance of the wider history of the sport. Tebow is not mould breaking. He's a fantastic athlete, with all the intangibles - probably born to be a professional athlete. But he is not going to revolutionize the QB position in the NFL, because he can't play a pro style offense.

At Florida, Tebow led a roster that had a significant talent edge on both sides of the ball against the majority of their schedule. His athleticism allowed him to get it done with his feet - but in the NFL, the worst franchises have defenses packed with stars at the college level. His game simply does not cut it.

Moreover, someone like Tebow failing and not being good enough is not new. There have been countless dominant running QBs playing in non pro style offenses at the college level over the years who couldn't get it done at the next level.

Personally, I think Tebow is good enough to get on a roster - but probably in a Brad Smith utility type role. For me, Denver's mistake is not failing to make him starting QB. It's failing to think outside the box and develop some funky **** to throw into the offensive mix a few times a game that utilises Tebow's specific skillset.

Syferus · 12-08-2011 12:17am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this post smacks of an ignorance of the wider history of the sport. Tebow is not mould breaking. He's a fantastic athlete, with all the intangibles - probably born to be a professional athlete. But he is not going to revolutionize the QB position in the NFL, because he can't play a pro style offense.

At Florida, Tebow led a roster that had a significant talent edge on both sides of the ball against the majority of their schedule. His athleticism allowed him to get it done with his feet - but in the NFL, the worst franchises have defenses packed with stars at the college level. His game simply does not cut it.

Moreover, someone like Tebow failing and not being good enough is not new. There have been countless dominant running QBs playing in non pro style offenses at the college level over the years who couldn't get it done at the next level.

Personally, I think Tebow is good enough to get on a roster - but probably in a Brad Smith utility type role. For me, Denver's mistake is not failing to make him starting QB. It's failing to think outside the box and develop some funky **** to throw into the offensive mix a few times a game that utilises Tebow's specific skillset.

Come on now. I never said he's a singular aberration, indeed it should be obvious to most the similarities in his style of play and Falcons-era Vick, while Steve (and Vince) Young springs to mind in terms of a dual-threat quarter-back.

Tebow is a tight end-sized QB, though, and it's hard for anyone to make the case that if Tebow does succeed - coupled with Vick continuing his form with the Eagles and Newton delivering a hybrid of the two at Carolina - that it will contribute to different ideas as to what the most effective type of QB is. If there's room for a Peyton Manning, a Ben Roethlisberger, a Drew Brees and a Michael Vick in the league the idea of Tebow playing QB isn't much of a stretch. If you disagree that's your choice, but until he's given the chance to develop and grow as a pro then no one can really discount him or anyone coming up in his mold.

I saw that article on NFL.com and it makes alot of sense. If Denver don't see him as the future they need to trade him immediately to a team that does want him because he has to be a project for a team for him to be of real value to them. Washington springs to mind as a team that could do with a young QB to develop.

LuckyLloyd · 12-08-2011 1:43am

Tebow is a tight end-sized QB, though, and it's hard for anyone to make the case that if Tebow does succeed - coupled with Vick continuing his form with the Eagles and Newton delivering a hybrid of the two at Carolina - that it will contribute to different ideas as to what the most effective type of QB is. If there's room for a Peyton Manning, a Ben Roethlisberger, a Drew Brees and a Michael Vick in the league the idea of Tebow playing QB isn't much of a stretch. If you disagree that's your choice, but until he's given the chance to develop and grow as a pro then no one can really discount him or anyone coming up in his mold.

HE. CANNOT. THROW.

As for the rest, remember this dude? How about this guy, he was huge for the position. This beast could get it done with his feet before a horrific injury, and this guy ran for nearly 3k yards in essentially five seasons.

Vick will start for a genuine contender this year backed up by Vince Young. Seriously man, this idea that 'the next great running QB will revolutionize the position' is dead wrong. The NFL has had numerous run happy QBs, it is aware of them, and they can succeed. But all of the above names (apart from Stewart I guess) could all THROW THE ****ING FOOTBALL. They could exist with 3 step drops, run pro sets efficiently, etc.

The NFL will never deny players that are good enough their shot. It is a true meritocracy in that respect - everyone wants to win and they'll play whoever they think can help them to achieve that end (and gamble with loads of players who 'might' in the process). But Tebow just doesn't have the skills.

Of course, when players like Tebow fail there will be no shortage of college fanboys there who just don't wish to understand why.

Syferus · 12-08-2011 2:00am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

HE. CANNOT. THROW.

As for the rest, remember this dude? How about this guy, he was huge for the position. This beast could get it done with his feet before a horrific injury, and this guy ran for nearly 3k yards in essentially five seasons.

Vick will start for a genuine contender this year backed up by Vince Young. Seriously man, this idea that 'the next great running QB will revolutionize the position' is dead wrong. The NFL has had numerous run happy QBs, it is aware of them, and they can succeed. But all of the above names (apart from Stewart I guess) could all THROW THE ****ING FOOTBALL. They could exist with 3 step drops, run pro sets efficiently, etc.

The NFL will never deny players that are good enough their shot. It is a true meritocracy in that respect - everyone wants to win and they'll play whoever they think can help them to achieve that end (and gamble with loads of players who 'might' in the process). But Tebow just doesn't have the skills.

Of course, when players like Tebow fail there will be no shortage of college fanboys there who just don't wish to understand why.

Look, I'm not going to get into a shouting match over a quarter-back - we disagree, it's as simple as that.

spiralism · 12-08-2011 3:38am

he threw pretty well tonight in the time he was given, for what its worth, 6/7 for 91 yards. orton with 2/6 for 37

tallaghtoutlaws · 12-08-2011 4:03am

spiralism wrote: »

he threw pretty well tonight in the time he was given, for what its worth, 6/7 for 91 yards. orton with 2/6 for 37

Pre-season though means nothing. Watching the Pats tonight and Hoyer and Mallett had all day in the pocket to launch footballs.

And if you look at the throws the majority bar one of them was a long pass. The Backs and WR spruced up the amount of yards. Again it goes back to his long wind up he ends up throwing short passes.

spiralism · 12-08-2011 4:08am

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Pre-season though means nothing. Watching the Pats tonight and Hoyer and Mallett had all day in the pocket to launch footballs.

aye, though it proved that tebow isnt that bad in an actual game situation after getting criticised for not performing well in practice... it is only preseason though, sure brady quinn has looked good too

tallaghtoutlaws · 12-08-2011 4:10am

spiralism wrote: »

aye, though it proved that tebow isnt that bad in an actual game situation after getting criticised for not performing well in practice... it is only preseason though, sure brady quinn has looked good too

Again dude these are true reflection of game situations. Pre-season is nothing more than an advanced practice scrimmage. Game 3 of the Pre-season is when you start to see some sort of competition as starters are getting ready.

But as Llyod and myself and others have said Tebow cant pass the football. Short passes will only get you so far. And that article I posted earlier shows that the Broncos probably wont give him the time to fix his issues.

Remember who drafted Tebow as his project.

spiralism · 12-08-2011 4:16am

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Again dude these are true reflection of game situations. Pre-season is nothing more than an advanced practice scrimmage. Game 3 of the Pre-season is when you start to see some sort of competition as starters are getting ready.

But as Llyod and myself and others have said Tebow cant pass the football. Short passes will only get you so far. And that article I posted earlier shows that the Broncos probably wont give him the time to fix his issues.

Remember who drafted Tebow as his project.

he's already proved he can pass and go deep at that, even if it was against a crappy houston defence

Michael lombardi's opinion is a lot different to what Elway and Fox might actually do as well

Chucky the tree · 12-08-2011 4:17am

spiralism wrote: »

aye, though it proved that tebow isnt that bad in an actual game situation after getting criticised for not performing well in practice... it is only preseason though, sure brady quinn has looked good too

No it doesn't, some of his completed throws looked pretty poor. The incompleted one was flat out horrendous.

eagle eye · 12-08-2011 7:17am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

HE. CANNOT. THROW.

HE CAN THROW. Remember he only started 3 games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb1zHpeBeZM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As for the rest, remember this dude? How about this guy, he was huge for the position. This beast could get it done with his feet before a horrific injury, and this guy ran for nearly 3k yards in essentially five seasons.

I can show you about 50 guys that you would be certain would make it in the NFL that didn't. Tebow has these intangibles that just make him so much better than all these other guys. Its going to be hard for Tebow under John Fox though, his playbook has never been QB friendly, either that or he is just the unluckiest coach in football because every QB has struggled more often than not in his system.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Vick will start for a genuine contender this year backed up by Vince Young. Seriously man, this idea that 'the next great running QB will revolutionize the position' is dead wrong. The NFL has had numerous run happy QBs, it is aware of them, and they can succeed. But all of the above names (apart from Stewart I guess) could all THROW THE ****ING FOOTBALL. They could exist with 3 step drops, run pro sets efficiently, etc.

Who is saying that? I'm certainly not saying it. There are exceptions to every rule. Look at Favre, he should never have made it or lasted so long given all the problems he had and with his gunslinger attitude where he would risk an interception to get the big score. Look at Brees, only 6' tall but he is one of the best in the league. For me Tebow's biggest strengths are his desire to win, to improve himself everyday, the way he inspires others. He can throw the ball, he is not the best there will ever be at it, he is not the worst either but his attitude has brought him a long way to this point and it will bring him a lot further. McDaniels knows more about QBs than most in the NFL, he improved Orton in his first year in Denver, Brady had a ridiculous season throwing 50 tds under him, Matty Cassel had an excellent season under him too. This man took Tebow in the first round of the draft, for me that means an awful lot. There were rumours that Belichick was going after him too and he has praised him many times.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The NFL will never deny players that are good enough their shot. It is a true meritocracy in that respect - everyone wants to win and they'll play whoever they think can help them to achieve that end (and gamble with loads of players who 'might' in the process). But Tebow just doesn't have the skills.

Again you keep pumping out the same line that Tebow doesn't have the skills. He is a winner thats the most important thing. Look at Joe Flacco, full of the right throws proper mechanics and all that but the guy just can't get it done when it matters most.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Of course, when players like Tebow fail there will be no shortage of college fanboys there who just don't wish to understand why.

What are we to take from this?

Is it a my name is LuckyLloyd and I am an expert on Quarterbacks and anybody who thinks Tebow will make it is dumb? Seriously is that the line you are taking here?

tallaghtoutlaws · 12-08-2011 1:04pm

eagle eye wrote: »

HE CAN THROW. Remember he only started 3 games.

Well of course taking someone's point literally about throwing is easy to disprove. Personally when I talk about his throwing its inaccurate and requires long wind ups. Notice in your video that every pass he makes he has ample time in the pocket. Notice every time he gets rushed he runs. As for that first pass in the Vid ALL the WR work.

Anyone can dump a long ball into the corner of the endzone into double coverage and hope someone pulls it in. In fact I remember last year after that game it was broken down in highlights and many said it was a hit and hope. WR did all the work getting that ball in.

Tebow still needs a lot of work and Denver it seems are not willing to give it to him. His footwork sucks and his throwing motion and passes are average. He needs far too much work and for him to make it in the NFL someone is going to have to work with him as a team and give him time. And personally I dont see anyone doing it if Denver offload him the end of the season.

The issue of Tebow is like the Manning Brady arguments going to come down to agree to disagree.

tallaghtoutlaws · 12-08-2011 1:09pm

eagle eye wrote: »

McDaniels knows more about QBs than most in the NFL, he improved Orton in his first year in Denver, Brady had a ridiculous season throwing 50 tds under him, Matty Cassel had an excellent season under him too. This man took Tebow in the first round of the draft, for me that means an awful lot. There were rumours that Belichick was going after him too and he has praised him many times.

Just read this again. You hit the nail on the head here when we talk about Tebow needs work. McDaniels SAW potential in Tebow to be a pro. McDaniels knew he wasn't ready right away but believed he could work with him. The problem here is McDaniels no longer controls his project.

The NFL is a business and finding a team with patience and time to develop Tebow could be hard work unless the Rams pick him up and re-unite him with McDaniels.

As for Belichick Tebow would have sat on our bench as 3rd string had we taken him and you wouldn't have seen him take a snap in 2 years with Brady still there. That and the fact Hoyer is most likely going to be Bradys back up until someone else like Mallet moves him from the Depth. Oh and it was just a rumour.

Black Swan · 12-08-2011 1:12pm

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Pre-season though means nothing.

Indeed.

Chucky the tree · 12-08-2011 1:57pm

Being a winner is the most important trait to being an nfl quarterback. :pac: There are loads of 2nd/3rd string QB players who have/do work just as hard as Tebow to improve and get better, problem is they don't have the natual talent and skills required and that's Tebow's problem. I mean if in your 2nd year as an NFL quarterback and all you can do is the play-action then you're in big trouble.

Rented Mule · 12-08-2011 2:13pm

Orton is not the flashiest QB in the NFL. He is an outstanding game manager and a proven NFL QB who won't hurt you in game situations.

The only situation that I can see Tebow performing well in would be goal line situations. He is more athletically gifted than Orton in this situation.

The idea that you have play Tebow because he was a 1st round pick is laughable. McDaniels completely reached with this pick to take a player who would have been available several rounds late You don't waste a pick like this on a 'project', and that's exactly what you have in Tebow.

Denver has a completely new regime this season. A regime that was obviously not too fond of what McDaniels did in his short tenure. John Elway is reported to have not been to fond of the Tebow pick. If Tebow is going to be a full time starting QB in the NFL, it will most likely be in his next contract with another team.

tallaghtoutlaws · 12-08-2011 2:22pm

Steve_O posted this up in the pre-season thread and I missed this in the highlights. But this sums up Tebow right now and why he has work to do. This is one of the things Andy Reid stressed with Vick not to do. Don't depend on your feet.

But in this instance Tebow clearly wasn't thinking and if you do stuff like this in the regular season you will find yourself warming a bench.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Stev_o wrote: »

Got to laugh at this play from Denver vs Cowboys.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-preseason/09000d5d8216516a/Tebow-Turnaround

The penalties sum that play up. The problem with a QB that chooses to use his feet. Make sure you don't cross the line of scrimmage when throwing. Also make sure your linemen haven't gone too far downfield as the minute you run they will look to block for you. If you throw that ball and they have gone beyond 5 yards penalty on you. Oh and you might get some blocks in the back.

See this right here is what coaches dont like in Athletic QBs.

LuckyLloyd · 12-08-2011 3:37pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Is it a my name is LuckyLloyd and I am an expert on Quarterbacks and anybody who thinks Tebow will make it is dumb? Seriously is that the line you are taking here?

Tebow will make it as a football player, not as a starting QB. And yes, people who don't get that are dumb.

boccy23 · 12-08-2011 4:11pm

Saw Orton play when I was in Indiana for Purdue and have followed him all through his college and pro career so I think Denver is mad to even look at Tebow. Orton is a very good Pro QB and could be even better if given a chance.

But I have to say, it is fun to watch Tebow play. He goes down Hard!! You're just waiting for when he is going to get opened up.

spiralism · 15-08-2011 1:56am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Tebow will make it as a football player, not as a starting QB. And yes, people who don't get that are dumb.

is this the Fullback/Tight End thing again? If Tebow doesnt make it as a QB, he wont make it full stop probably. And to say that he certainly wont make it as a starting QB is ludicrous. Maybe he won't sure, but theres more evidence right now that he will make it than not

I'll say this, if you could combine Orton's passing skills with Tebow's Intangibles, you'd have some player

Chucky the tree · 15-08-2011 2:25am

spiralism wrote: »

is this the Fullback/Tight End thing again? If Tebow doesnt make it as a QB, he wont make it full stop probably. And to say that he certainly wont make it as a starting QB is ludicrous. Maybe he won't sure, but theres more evidence right now that he will make it than not

I'll say this, if you could combine Orton's passing skills with Tebow's Intangibles, you'd have some player

He's a second year QB who still can't do a 3 step drop. Can't seem to sit in the pocket and go through his reads at all either. Apart from the play action fake and then going long down the field there really isn't much he can do as a QB.

spiralism · 15-08-2011 12:10pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

He's a second year QB who still can't do a 3 step drop. Can't seem to sit in the pocket and go through his reads at all either. Apart from the play action fake and then going long down the field there really isn't much he can do as a QB.

despite this, he looked good in his 3 starts, kept us competitive against two teams that had badly blown us out earlier in the season and won us a match against houston on his own. If we'd had orton in through to the end of the season we'd have taken 3 hammerings and ended up 3-13

tallaghtoutlaws · 15-08-2011 3:26pm

spiralism wrote: »

If we'd had orton in through to the end of the season we'd have taken 3 hammerings and ended up 3-13

This made me laugh out loud. So its all Orton's fault for your bad record? For fooks sake I have heard it all now. As for Denver winning those games you are mad if you think it was just Tebow that won them. The Broncos had nothing to play for than pride at that point.

Orton would have opened up on the Texans also. Their secondary was the worst in the NFL as for the other 2 games they could have gone either way. Sure Tebow might have sparked the players up for 3 games but lets face it the season was over and the coaching staff should have done that at the start of the season. But for his football skills were average at best and you could see his flaws.

Got to love it the blaming Orton for the loses though. Broncos fans quickly turning into Eagles fans looking for a scapegoat.

spiralism · 17-08-2011 12:26am

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

This made me laugh out loud. So its all Orton's fault for your bad record? For fooks sake I have heard it all now. As for Denver winning those games you are mad if you think it was just Tebow that won them. The Broncos had nothing to play for than pride at that point.

Orton would have opened up on the Texans also. Their secondary was the worst in the NFL as for the other 2 games they could have gone either way. Sure Tebow might have sparked the players up for 3 games but lets face it the season was over and the coaching staff should have done that at the start of the season. But for his football skills were average at best and you could see his flaws.

Got to love it the blaming Orton for the loses though. Broncos fans quickly turning into Eagles fans looking for a scapegoat.

no, but Orton was playing some awful stuff by that stage in the season, he would definitely have got us blown out against Oakland and SD (he had in the two reverse fixtures) and wouldnt have been able to muster a comeback against Houston. He'd probably have put up pretty numbers and lost in all 3 games, it was the story of the season for him.

I'm not blaming Orton for any of those losses, don't be ridiculous. Having the #32 Defence in the NFL contributed to nearly all of those losses (cept @ Kansas i suppose and maybe Arizona, he was unnaturally bad in those games) far more than Orton did

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