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IE to lease UK fleet?

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    #122
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Dats me wrote: »
    But then where will they put these 600 carriages? Dublin is incredibly congested, article mentions 629 as the size of the current fleet, I can't see how a doubling of trains could be possible without DU, better service around Galway and Cork etc would be great but again can't see the numbers. Maybe it's a typo as said above.

    I've no idea myself I just can't see how they'll get through Connolly

    The framework would be for delivery over 10 years.

    Currently only 341 vehicles are in the pipeline, but the agreement would take them to 2034 by which time the 2800 and 29000s would be up for renewal being 34 and 32 years old respectively, as would the Japanese DARTs which would be between 30 and 34 years old aswell.

    Future fleets are for both replacement aswell as expansion.


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    #123
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,787 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    GM228 wrote: »
    The framework would be for delivery over 10 years.

    Currently only 341 vehicles are in the pipeline, but the agreement would take them to 2034 by which time the 2800 and 29000s would be up for renewal being 34 and 32 years old respectively, as would the Japanese DARTs which would be between 30 and 34 years old aswell.

    Future fleets are for both replacement aswell as expansion.

    Good riddance to the Japanese darts - I look forward to a day when I don't have the guy opposite's knee in my crotch.


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    #124
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    1ph to Sligo is madness. I'm sure its a well used line but Cork just about sustain a hourly service. The N4 is due to get a few upgrades at the Sligo end and this will impact them in the coming years.

    Galway can sustain a 1ph service because Westport will likely become a shuttle 2ph outside a morning/evening peak like Tralee.

    Still would not be optimistic that they will happen anytime soon.

    Sorry, just contributing now, haven't read everything.

    Sligo 1tph - no need for this, what is needed is faster services, i.e. aim for 2.5hrs.

    GY 1tph, yes, good idea.

    My suggestion - double track GY to Athenry, add stations in suburban GY, e.g. at Roscam, maybe at Renmore.


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    #125
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Ireland trains wrote: »
    The reccomended artical also mentions 4 tph on galway to athenry, faster services, a platform 8 at connolly and quad tracking heuston to park west.
    I asume for the 600 coaches it was either a typo or this could include new enterprise fleet aswell

    Sorry, but which article says this?


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    #126
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    Geuze wrote: »
    Sorry, but which article says this?


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ambitious-boss-sets-sights-on-growing-passenger-numbers-to-75-million-37731326.html


    Sorry, should have been linked. It appears to be behind a paywall now sadly, but maybe you just have to register.


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    #127
    Thrashssacre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    Has it been specified where the new leased trains would go? there fairly short units so capacitywise there fairly useless for peak commuter services unless used in multiples


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    #128
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Thrashssacre wrote: »
    Has it been specified where the new leased trains would go? there fairly short units so capacitywise there fairly useless for peak commuter services unless used in multiples

    185s can and often do work in multiples.


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    #129
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Why are none of the new BMU trains 8 car.
    I know that more flexibility but there would be less capacity.
    I assume new enterprise fleet will be multiple units rather than loco haul


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    #130
    Thrashssacre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    What would be the capacity different between a 3x2 car 185 and a 4x8 22k?


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    #131
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Thrashssacre wrote: »
    What would be the capacity different between a 3x2 car 185 and a 4x8 22k?

    Class 22000
    190 seats for a 3 car.
    262 seats for a 4 car

    Class 185
    Coach A: 64 standard + 4 tip-up seats (doubles as bike storage area)
    Coach B: 72 standard + accessible toilet
    Coach C: 18 standard + 6 tip up (doubles as wheelchair area) + Accessible Toilet + 15 First Class + Trolley Storage

    So essentially at current configuration you're looking at:
    154 Standard + 10 tip-up seats + 16 First Class = 180 seats.

    However if you take First Class and the Trolley area out and take out the now unnecessary dedicated First class luggage rack, you would get at least 13 more seats in without too much of a problem, which would take you up to 193


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    #132
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    loyatemu wrote: »
    Good riddance to the Japanese darts - I look forward to a day when I don't have the guy opposite's knee in my crotch.

    Isn't that just the seat arrangement?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #133
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Isn't that just the seat arrangement?

    The older Japanese ones are horrible, the seats are overly padded and feel too low to the ground and sag towards the edges and the space between seats facing each other is so little it's impossible to sit opposite to anyone that's not a kid, without the previously mentioned problem.

    That's before you deal with their poor heating, woeful passenger information system and the general feeling that they're an outer suburban train that's being used on an inner suburban journey that they are not really suitable for.

    I'm generally not a fan of bench seats, but the 8100s are the best DARTs by far.


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    #134
    Rashers72
    Registered Users Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭Rashers72


    Confirmed by CEO that after the refurbishment was scrapped last year, now the backup plan of leasing 'unlikely'. Very bad news again for rail users in Ireland ðŸ™
    https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/rushhour-congestion-to-get-worse-before-it-gets-better-irish-rail-37731324.html
    We will get 5 new sets to cover the entire country but I doubt they will be in service till 2022, and then once testing completed in 2024 we get 100 carriages. IE/NTA need to quickly come up with a plan C in short term...


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    #135
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,558 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Rashers72 wrote: »
    Confirmed by CEO that after the refurbishment was scrapped last year, now the backup plan of leasing 'unlikely'. Very bad news again for rail users in Ireland
    https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/rushhour-congestion-to-get-worse-before-it-gets-better-irish-rail-37731324.html
    We will get 5 new sets to cover the entire country but I doubt they will be in service till 2022, and then once testing completed in 2024 we get 100 carriages. IE/NTA need to quickly come up with a plan C in short term...

    Other than the 2700s or leasing (there is serious demand on the GB network for that stock), there is no plan C. New stock will take until 2021 regardless of where they order from given the tendering process and long lead times

    Realistically, until it becomes a potential election issue then there won’t be any urgency at government level - remember that they hold the purse strings. As yet I’m not even sure that the DoT have finally signed off on allowing the NTA/IE order the ICRs let alone anything else.


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    #136
    Salmon Leap
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭Salmon Leap


    How much of a difference would it make if the MkIIIs had not been scrapped? Would they have helped much?


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    #137
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Salmon Leap wrote: »
    How much of a difference would it make if the MkIIIs had not been scrapped? Would they have helped much?


    a good bit i'd suspect. certainly better then the current situation. remember there have been a few of us on this site discussing the capacity issues for years now. the recession may have meant less numbers but it didn't do anything for over-crowding. they were simply left to cram on to the much much shorter and a lot less of new trains. as said though, more people need to make this an election issue otherwise we will be discussing it in 10 years or more.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #138
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Mk3 would be nice but the need is for commuter trains and the Mk3 ain't good at that. There are ICR's tied up on commuter runs currently where they cannot cope with large volumes of passengers

    The push pull sets were limited to 70mph when Heuston is now an entirely 100mph operation. The cost to retain a block of the Mk3 fleet was looked at and the decision was to get more ICR's instead when the numbers in terms of running costs and major overhaul were looked at. Cost per km on a Mk3 is double that of an ICR and the reliability numbers are very much in the ICR's favour by at least a factor of 10.

    Ideally there would be a spare Mk3 in Heuston, Cork and Connolly on standby if something went wrong which would help


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    #139
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Whats the difference between the ICR long distance and commuter type.

    Should they not order a few extra ICR cars now the leasing is unlikely. Maybe even an extra 2 or 3 six car full sets on top of the 41 or up it to 60. Is it possible to request central doors and design the interior to commuter standard on some of new ICR coachs.


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    #140
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Whats the difference between the ICR long distance and commuter type.

    Should they not order a few extra ICR cars now the leasing is unlikely. Maybe even an extra 2 or 3 six car full sets on top of the 41 or up it to 60. Is it possible to request central doors and design the interior to commuter standard on some of new ICR coachs.

    More standing room for commuters, can't have people standing for an intercity journey so I be amazed if they asked for a commuter fit-out.

    FG have really been woeful in terms of action on public transport since they came in, but pro-cyclical fiscal spending/cutting is the norm in Ireland, I think this mess coming from a lack of investment was inevitable


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    #141
    Jem72
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭Jem72


    The differences between long-distance and commuter ICRs are minimal. I think there may be a bit less luggage rack space but that's about it. Centre cars only makes sense as they are going to be cheaper given that they lack a cab and they also get a lot more seats for the same money.

    I think the reason the 41 ICRs is a priority is because there is an option to get 41 centre cars from the original contract so they are getting a great price on them. But with a bit more ICR capacity, it's possible that the 12 29K units used on Longford could be freed up for more sensible duty. I'd guess there are more doing other runs that would be better served with 22Ks.

    Neither commuter nor intercity ICRs are suitable for standing but that doesn't bother Irish Rail. They claim it is not a safety issue but I wouldn't like to find myself standing in a vestible in the event of an accident since the whole point of modern Intercity vestibles is to allow for crumple zones.


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    #142
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Whats the difference between the ICR long distance and commuter type.!
    Jem72 wrote: »
    The differences between long-distance and commuter ICRs are minimal. I think there may be a bit less luggage rack space but that's about it.

    There is no such thing as a commuter or long distance ICR, all are the same with the exception of the 5 piece ICRs which have a buffet and so called Premier class in the A1 car.

    When delivered there were two types of 6 piece sets, some with the premier class/buffet and some without, the ones without became known as the HC (high capacity) fleet to distinguish from the premier fleet, but HC was misleading as the only difference was the extra seats afforded by having a standard A2 car instead of the A1.


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    #143
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Don't some 5car icrs operate as commuter services
    Will IE ever make their premier class seats more comfortable or 2+1 configuration?
    What is the buffet service offerings like and in maby 7 years time when there is enough capacity is their a change IE will make dining cars?
    And finally any news of the new icr eeat covers


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    #144
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Don't some 5car icrs operate as commuter services
    Will IE ever make their premier class seats more comfortable or 2+1 configuration?
    What is the buffet service offerings like and in maby 7 years time when there is enough capacity is their a change IE will make dining cars?
    And finally any news of the new icr seat covers


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    #145
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Ireland trains wrote: »
    Don't some 5car icrs operate as commuter services
    Will IE ever make their premier class seats more comfortable or 2+1 configuration?
    What is the buffet service offerings like and in maby 7 years time when there is enough capacity is their a change IE will make dining cars?
    And finally any news of the new icr seat covers

    Yes the operate Newbridge-GCD, Portlaoise-Heuston and Carlow-Heuston (used to anyway).


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    #146
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Dats me wrote: »
    More standing room for commuters, can't have people standing for an intercity journey so I be amazed if they asked for a commuter fit-out.

    FG have really been woeful in terms of action on public transport since they came in, but pro-cyclical fiscal spending/cutting is the norm in Ireland, I think this mess coming from a lack of investment was inevitable

    But is there not some ICR sets in a commuter format of some sort. Thought there was 4 or 5 sets meant for commuter work.


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    #147
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    GM228 wrote: »
    There is no such thing as a commuter or long distance ICR, all are the same with the exception of the 5 piece ICRs which have a buffet and so called Premier class in the A1 car.

    When delivered there were two types of 6 piece sets, some with the premier class/buffet and some without, the ones without became known as the HC (high capacity) fleet to distinguish from the premier fleet, but HC was misleading as the only difference was the extra seats afforded by having a standard A2 car instead of the A1.

    Thats what it was, high capacity. Thats answers that.


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    #148
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Jem72 wrote: »
    The differences between long-distance and commuter ICRs are minimal. I think there may be a bit less luggage rack space but that's about it. Centre cars only makes sense as they are going to be cheaper given that they lack a cab and they also get a lot more seats for the same money.

    I think the reason the 41 ICRs is a priority is because there is an option to get 41 centre cars from the original contract so they are getting a great price on them. But with a bit more ICR capacity, it's possible that the 12 29K units used on Longford could be freed up for more sensible duty. I'd guess there are more doing other runs that would be better served with 22Ks.

    Neither commuter nor intercity ICRs are suitable for standing but that doesn't bother Irish Rail. They claim it is not a safety issue but I wouldn't like to find myself standing in a vestible in the event of an accident since the whole point of modern Intercity vestibles is to allow for crumple zones.

    I understand centre cars will be an awful lot cheaper. But if leasing is unlikely and they were willing to spend the money i wonder, if Rotem can provide them, have they explored the option of ordering extra.

    I know the key thing is the position of the doors but is it possible or worthwhile altering the seating in some of the new order ICR for commuter purposes. If numbers keep going the way they are they'll still be way short by the time these arrive, if ordered.


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    #149
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Irish rail need more trains for kildare line as intercity trains are starting to become commuter trains at this stage which is increasing journey times.

    Quote from wikipedia-irish rail page
    an initial purchase of 41 will be made for delivery in 2021, comprising three new trains, with the remainder planned as intermediate vehicles to lengthen existing units. The deal for the new vehicles is intended to include options for up to 40 further vehicles.[14] There are also plans for a total replacement of the existing DART fleet,

    This is from todays railways magezine which i do not have.
    If anyone has this artical could they please post it.


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    #150
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The NTA have now issued a tender:

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=141241&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders


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    #151
    Rashers72
    Registered Users Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭Rashers72


    marno21 wrote: »
    The NTA have now issued a tender:

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=141241&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

    So how does that fit into the details announced by IE CEO last week? He said leasing unlikely whereas this tender says either leasing or purchase. Am I missing something?


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