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Despite the scandals...

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Comments

  • #52
    mooreman09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭mooreman09


    splinter65 wrote: »
    They’re not practicing Catholics. They shouldn’t go to Holy Communion unless they’ve been to Confession and you can go to confession and get absolution but only if you are sorry in your heart and determined not to sin again.

    Fully agreed

    There must be very few real Catholics around at the moment. I don't know any - including friends that wed in churches and go to mass every so often.


  • #53
    BloodBath
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You can “personally garuntee me” or anyone else if absolutely nothing to do with Tuam. You don’t know any more about Tuam then anyone else until the report comes out and to assume anything until then is both supremely arrogant on your behalf and counter productive to the wishes of those directly affected by the report.
    Why on earth would I feel ashamed of something I had no hand act or part in?
    When a brother has been proved to have sexually assaulted his sister do you ask other family members who knew nothing if they are ashamed too?
    When you read about a bullying incident in a semi state that resulted in a suicide do you say all the other staff should be ashamed?
    Is every scout and scout leader who ever lived to be ashamed?
    Are you ashamed of things you didn’t do?

    I have heard many harrowing tales of those in the laundries. The level of inhumanity and cruelty rivalled that of the SS Nazi's. We shall see now won't we assuming we get an actual investigation and not just an exhumation for reburial. The state has a lot to hide in these matters as well.

    More fail analogies that completely ignore that these systems were put in place by the pope and those at the top of the church and were not just cases of 1 or 2 bad apples. They were systems of power, control and greed that caused the deaths and suffering of millions of people.

    But believe whatever you want to believe. The facts are out there. If you want to support evil that is your choice.


  • #54
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    BloodBath wrote: »
    I have heard many harrowing tales of those in the laundries. The level of inhumanity and cruelty rivalled that of the SS Nazi's. We shall see now won't we assuming we get an actual investigation and not just an exhumation for reburial. The state has a lot to hide in these matters as well.

    More fail analogies that completely ignore that these systems were put in place by the pope and those at the top of the church and were not just cases of 1 or 2 bad apples. They were systems of power, control and greed that caused the deaths and suffering of millions of people.

    But believe whatever you want to believe. The facts are out there. If you want to support evil that is your choice.

    You’re admitting now that if the Tuam report isn’t what you want it to be that you will label it a whitewash. How convenient for you.
    The Nazis were responsible for the torture execution starvation and death of at least 7 million people in a 6 year period. When you compare them to the Mercy nuns you denigrate and downgrade every single one of those 7 million.
    But the left are shameless in describing every single solitary person not on the left as a Nazi, to the point where Nazism is now meaningless to a whole generation of young people.
    I hope you never have to experience what Nazism actually really means because I think you’ll find that it’s not the same as being in a convent. At all.


  • #55
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    The local soccer club had a number of coach’s convicted of sexual abuse etc but does that mean I should stop going to soccer matchs ??

    You want to use this example? Grand do, let's go....

    If the FAI were involved in moving sexual abusing coaches around to different clubs, silencing abuse victims and covering up abuse.... Would you want to have anything to do with the FAI?

    What if the FAI was still refused to release its records to international investigators and had still not paid the millions owed to abuse victims?

    Any sane person wouldn't touch the FAI or GAA in this situation, but with the catholic church people just turn a blind eye and stick their fingers in the ears.

    It's beyond disturbing. You enable this behaviour by supporting the organisation.

    By all means by a Christian and believe in the Bible if it works for you, but supporting the catholic church as an organisation is questionable


  • #56
    OU812
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,072 ✭✭✭OU812


    Blind faith = None so blind as those the don't wish to see.


  • #57
    BloodBath
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You’re admitting now that if the Tuam report isn’t what you want it to be that you will label it a whitewash. How convenient for you.
    The Nazis were responsible for the torture execution starvation and death of at least 7 million people in a 6 year period. When you compare them to the Mercy nuns you denigrate and downgrade every single one of those 7 million.
    But the left are shameless in describing every single solitary person not on the left as a Nazi, to the point where Nazism is now meaningless to a whole generation of young people.
    I hope you never have to experience what Nazism actually really means because I think you’ll find that it’s not the same as being in a convent. At all.

    If you want to keep putting words in my mouth sure. If an independent commission properly investigates it with autopsies of all 800 children then I will accept the result.

    Please save your indignation for somebody else. My own grandfather was in Auschwitz for 4 years. The church were just as bad as the Nazi's. All fascists trying to control how people live and think through fear and persecution. The RCC are responsible for the deaths and suffering of far more people than the Nazis, granted over a far longer period of time but we don't have to go back as far as even the Nazis to see some of the worst of it. I suggest you look at the last 100 years alone as that is the best documented but by all means have a look at the last 1500 if you want some good horror stories.

    Also I am not on the left. I don't buy into these idiotic political ideologies designed to divide people much like religion.


  • #58
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    BloodBath wrote: »
    If you want to keep putting words in my mouth sure. If an independent commission properly investigates it with autopsies of all 800 children then I will accept the result.

    Please save your indignation for somebody else. My own grandfather was in Auschwitz for 4 years. The church were just as bad as the Nazi's. All fascists trying to control how people live and think through fear and persecution. The RCC are responsible for the deaths and suffering of far more people than the Nazis, granted over a far longer period of time but we don't have to go back as far as even the Nazis to see some of the worst of it. I suggest you look at the last 100 years alone as that is the best documented but by all means have a look at the last 1500 if you want some good horror stories.

    Also I am not on the left. I don't buy into these idiotic political ideologies designed to divide people much like religion.

    You’ll accept the Tuam report if it gives you the verdict you’ve already decided is the correct one, and you won’t if it doesn’t.
    The church have killed more people then the Nazis.... grand.


  • #59
    BloodBath
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You’ll accept the Tuam report if it gives you the verdict you’ve already decided is the correct one, and you won’t if it doesn’t.
    The church have killed more people then the Nazis.... grand.

    Nope. Again try reading what I said. Try reading some history books as well while you're at it.

    There have been many genocidal wars instigated by the RCC, the inquisitions all over Europe, and the rampant abduction of women and children all over the world.

    The RCC hate women but love fiddling little boys and their long and sordid history proves this.

    The amazing part is there are so many women in Ireland who will stand by the church despite their history of completely oppressing women for hundreds of years right up until the 70's and 80's in Ireland. It must be some form of Stockholm syndrome. Most of them are old enough to remember what it was like. They really should know better.


  • #60
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    splinter65 wrote: »
    The majority enabled the mass rape of children? Please explain this. Thanks.


    When reports began emerging of systematic rape and abuse of children in the RCC, did those at the top do anything? Bar obfuscating the issue? No, priests were moved around to different parishes when their actions were beginning to get themselves a name. So, yes, the popes and bishops enabled the mass rape of children.


    The same goes to all those priests who stayed quiet when the reports started to emerge, as well as to those priests who, while not actually participating in raping children, said naught as priests were moved around.



    So, yes, the majority.



    In my local parish, a priest started to get a 'name' for himself, before one day he was gone (same story with him in the three different parishes he was shipped to after this). Each priest in this parish knew exactly what he was up to, but said nothing. This was replicated throughout parishes in every diocese, as well as in other institutions controlled by the church.


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  • #61
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,553 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    If the management of the club knew of the abuse and did nothing would you still associate yourself with the club?

    This is the important thing. What did they do once they found out about an abuser amongst them. The proper thing to do is to act in the children's best interest which is to go to the police and get the abuser arested and convicted if it turns out to be a true allegation.

    The wrong thing to do is to put the reputation of the organisation ahead of children's interests. Ignoring the allegations, silencing victims, shielding the abuser from investigation and prosecution.

    The most evil thing to do would be to move the abuser to another area where they can abuse more children. Telling the police was never Catholic Church policy in practice. Instead they systematically chose the interest of the church over the children.

    They chose the most evil possible policy. Guardians of morality, my hoop.

    If a football club or Scout group acted the same way then they would be equally culpable. The catholics were able to maintain discipline and ensure none of their people did the right thing by telling the police. They lost all credibility when that came to light. Most people will never forgive that kind of evil behaviour.


  • #62
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,459 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Achasanai wrote: »
    I imagine that applies to popes, archbishops, bishops, and priests. Where does Catholicism begin and individual actions end?

    Cognitive dissonance makes the world go round


  • #63
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    splinter65 wrote: »
    If you break the rules of the Catholic Church to the extent that those who committed, and covered up, the heinous abuses, then you’ve excommunicated yourself really. You can keep going to the sacraments and pretending that you are but youre not.

    Which begs the question:

    were they Catholics at the time of their offending and excommunicated themselves as a result of their offences.

    Or did they excommunicate themselves before they committed the offences.
    Only a tiny percentage of the worlds Catholics perpetrated or enabled the abusers.

    Your point was that they weren't Catholics. It seems they were .. at the time of the offences
    The fact that the vast vast majority are totally innocent indicates that Catholiscm and it’s mechanisms was really just a route to get access to victims for the evil people.

    Isn't all sin evil? You seem to be drawing an arbitrary line: below a certain line of evil acts, a person ceases to be a Catholic.

    We don’t say that Scouting is responsible for creating abusers, or Swimming clubs or families, where by far the most abusing goes on, so why would we blame Catholicism?

    If Scouting buried the issue as the Catholic church did then we would well say that Scouting is responsible. Putting people in positions of power, not monitoring the exercise of that power (since power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, something even the dog in the street knows) and burying abuse of power..

    ..doth creation of abusers make


  • #64
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,497 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I happened across this thread earlier today:

    Cardinal Sean Brady aware of abuse in 1975

    Over seven years later, and despite the appointment of a new pope with yet more promises to deal with those who facilitated abuse, Sean Brady is still a cardinal.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #65
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,450 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    splinter65 wrote: »
    When you find some evidence to support your allegation that children are being sexually abused and enslaved and otherwise abused by the RCC in Ireland in 2019 or even over the last 10 years then bring it here and we will discuss it. Because that is what is being claimed. And that is lies.


    Telling that you specified "in Ireland".

    Plenty of abuse going on elsewhere,and little interest to put a stop to it.
    It is and always has been a reactive rather than a proactive response to abuse.


  • #66
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    kneemos wrote: »
    Telling that you specified "in Ireland".

    Plenty of abuse going on elsewhere,and little interest to put a stop to it.
    It is and always has been a reactive rather than a proactive response to abuse.

    and a very slow reaction at that.


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  • #67
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    kneemos wrote: »
    It is and always has been a reactive rather than a proactive response to abuse.


    The church has been extremely pro active as soon as they found out about abuse!

    Oh wait... You mean in a manner that safe guarded children rather then protecting the church's image.....


  • #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Splinter65, you keep deflecting and trying to bring scouts into it. Would that be the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland, later CSI and now part of Scouting Ireland?

    You are aware that Father Tom and Ernest Farrell founded the association, right? That most scout meetings took place in parish halls and later in halls built by the scout units on church land, right? That scout camps had catholic chaplains attending, right?

    That scouts had unit mass and parades and were forced to do so because the scout unit was seen as part of the parish? That catholic priests attended unit council (equivalent to board of management) meeting and knew every boy on a first name basis.

    That priests took part in every single aspect of scouting and were the ones who could decide which lay person could become a scout leader or not. You know all this, right? Because I certainly do.

    You try to deflect, but can only point your finger at an organization that took until the late 1990’s (and for some, later) to get out from under the thumb of the same priests who were responsible for systematic abuse of children throughout their parishes.

    It took my old unit years to shake off the local PP, a strange man with far too much interest in boys and as someone who was involved at local, regional and national levels, I can assure you this was not an experience limited to my own unit (now group).

    Level blame squarely at organizations and institutions for failing to act, but accept (because failure to do so makes you look like a fool) that the Catholic Church had it’s part to play in allowing abuse to permeate all groups or associations with youth membership in Ireland.

    You know well that the PP’s control extended far beyond the boundaries of the chapel grounds. If anything was happening, anything at all untoward, he knew of it. Sure isn’t that the main reason why Catholics are told to confess their sins to a man in garb, when all other Christians do perfectly well by praying to their god directly?

    Control. It’s all about control. That belonged to the Catholic Church.

    Never again.


  • #69
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,450 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Cabaal wrote: »
    The church has been extremely pro active as soon as they found out about abuse!

    Oh wait... You mean in a manner that safe guarded children rather then protecting the church's image.....


    Cases in point.
    https://cruxnow.com/news-analysis/2019/03/31/selling-people-the-vatican-gets-it-on-abuse-a-challenge-right-now/


  • #70
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You describe the abuse as ongoing over the last 50 years. It isn’t. Its very simple. Once again if you know of anyone at all who is abusing a child or an adult, enslaving raping or illegally burying or in any way breaking the law then you need to contact the Gardai.
    I don’t think that it’s going to be the findings that any of the babies in Tuam were murdered. That’s my opinion, you don’t know any more about what the report is going to find then anyone else. You’ll just have to wait and see.

    It has already been established by the investigations already done at tuam and other mother and baby homes that many of the children did not die from natural causes. Some were literally neglected to death. No medical care, no nourishment. And then thrown into empty septic tanks naked, unwrapped atop of other dead babies . And the "nuns" were paid £5 sterling by the council for each "burial" which is the only reason death certs were ever signed... by the nuns by the way

    Maybe spend Holy Week researching, reading all the evidence? All the contents of the reports are easy to find online. The findings are almost all found and excavation has started at the Sean Ross Abbey home now after info given by local folk, and then there are the other eight homes that are to be excavated etc.

    And all the abusers were irish men and women working against their own people

    Oh and look up Letterfrack too. a hidden graveyard with around 100 boys buried there, from 6 onwards, cruelly abused

    Overseas commntators call the abuse here genocide, Irish abusing Irish

    I entered the Catholic church when I came to Ireland nearly 20 years ago. Always a solid Christian from young childhood.
    My first year here the first abuse scandal broke. Goldenbridge. We all thought that that was it
    But it is a bottomless pit.
    It really is and we are not at the bottom yet

    I am still a devout and faithful Christian in the deepest sense and know many fine Catholics who are becoming more and more alienated.

    Not simply by the abuse but by the attitude you express.

    Jesus, Son of God saviour, purity, love , total goodness. How could He remain in this establishment?

    Last year I took some visitors to Blennerville, the working windmill. There were old millstones propped up against the mill and I remembered the words of jesus, telling us that it were better for any who ab used children that a millstone were tied around their necks and they were cast into the water

    Please, take time to read and to listen. Please.

    It was a hard and shocking process for me to take that journey of fact finding with every academic skill I have. I am through to a place of grieving peace and reality now, my faith in Jesus stronger than ever.


  • #71
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    splinter65 wrote: »
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/despite-scandals-over-1000-british-to-become-catholic-at-easter

    Great to see this. It’s amazing considering all the horrific things done by people pretending to be Catholics that these people can see past that and discover that there is only one thing that’s true and real and that’s Catholicism.

    It is great to see this, I agree.

    Jesus gave humanity the Catholic Church to deliver the only means of Salvation.


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  • #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    hinault wrote: »
    It is great to see this, I agree.

    Jesus gave humanity the Catholic Church to deliver the only means of Salvation.

    The Catholic Church will deliver the only means of salvation? If what they deliver is salvation, you can keep it so.

    'Save yourselves' and do the rest of us a favour: stop injecting your beliefs into the education of innocent children (especially the pure crap about being born into sin, you fools), stop covering up systematic and ongoing abuse of children and vulnerable young men and women, preying on single mothers and uneducated fools who will be easily swayed to follow the teachings of anyone who believes they have the only means of salvation to offer the world.

    A few converts means nothing to anyone but yourselves. I bet 100 times as many would have 'left' on Easter if the Catholic Church hadn't effectively made it impossible to do so. Honestly, I'd urinate on a chalice full of 'The Eucharist' (utter nonsense) or into the tabernacle if it would result in an actual termination of your claim to me as a Catholic.

    Just because some morons decide now would be a good time to join the flock, doesn't mean you've anything to contribute towards saving anyone from anything. You can't even save the children from your clergy, can you?


  • #73
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    JayZeus wrote: »
    The Catholic Church will deliver the only means of salvation? If what they deliver is salvation, you can keep it so.

    'Save yourselves' and do the rest of us a favour: stop injecting your beliefs into the education of innocent children (especially the pure crap about being born into sin, you fools), stop covering up systematic and ongoing abuse of children and vulnerable young men and women, preying on single mothers and uneducated fools who will be easily swayed to follow the teachings of anyone who believes they have the only means of salvation to offer the world.

    A few converts means nothing to anyone but yourselves. I bet 100 times as many would have 'left' on Easter if the Catholic Church hadn't effectively made it impossible to do so. Honestly, I'd urinate on a chalice full of 'The Eucharist' (utter nonsense) or into the tabernacle if it would result in an actual termination of your claim to me as a Catholic.

    Just because some morons decide now would be a good time to join the flock, doesn't mean you've anything to contribute towards saving anyone from anything. You can't even save the children from your clergy, can you?

    Most likely they converted because they think the Church of England have become too soft on homosexuals and others the converts would like to see burn in hell.


  • #74
    Dublinandy2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 772 ✭✭✭Dublinandy2


    hinault wrote: »
    It is great to see this, I agree.

    Jesus gave humanity the Catholic Church to deliver the only means of Salvation.


    Jesus gave us salvation, not the Catholic Church. Humans seeking power gave us the Catholic Church.


    To be a Christian is not to be a catholic,or Protestant or any denomination, it is to follow Christ and His law, the new testament.


    Sorry to go off topic, if I am but it’s statements like this which people who haven’t studied the word will believe at face value.


  • #75
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Dublinandy2 wrote: »
    To be a Christian is not to be a catholic,or Protestant or any denomination, it is to follow Christ and His law, the new testament.
    Which law did the first Christians follow before the NT was assembled around AD390? And who guarded the "deposit of faith"?


  • #76
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    hinault wrote: »
    Jesus gave humanity the Catholic Church to deliver the only means of Salvation.

    And what a balls they made of it, always on about what others should be doing instead of what they themselves should be doing.


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