Despite the scandals...

splinter65

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/despite-scandals-over-1000-british-to-become-catholic-at-easter

Great to see this. It’s amazing considering all the horrific things done by people pretending to be Catholics that these people can see past that and discover that there is only one thing that’s true and real and that’s Catholicism.

antiskeptic

splinter65 wrote: »

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/despite-scandals-over-1000-british-to-become-catholic-at-easter

Great to see this. It’s amazing considering all the horrific things done by people pretending to be Catholics that these people can see past that and discover that there is only one thing that’s true and real and that’s Catholicism.

What's amazing is someone's ability to suppose that Catholicism and it's mechanisms had nothing to do with the horrific things done by core members of Catholicism.

Quite how you suppose that someone isn't a Catholic just because they do something horrific is beyond me. As if Christ came to save the righteous.

Achasanai

splinter65 wrote: »

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/despite-scandals-over-1000-british-to-become-catholic-at-easter

Great to see this. It’s amazing considering all the horrific things done by people pretending to be Catholics that these people can see past that and discover that there is only one thing that’s true and real and that’s Catholicism.

I imagine that applies to popes, archbishops, bishops, and priests. Where does Catholicism begin and individual actions end?

splinter65

antiskeptic wrote: »

What's amazing is someone's ability to suppose that Catholicism and it's mechanisms had nothing to do with the horrific things done by core members of Catholicism.

Quite how you suppose that someone isn't a Catholic just because they do something horrific is beyond me. As if Christ came to save the righteous.

If you break the rules of the Catholic Church to the extent that those who committed, and covered up, the heinous abuses, then you’ve excommunicated yourself really. You can keep going to the sacraments and pretending that you are but youre not.
Only a tiny percentage of the worlds Catholics perpetrated or enabled the abusers.
The fact that the vast vast majority are totally innocent indicates that Catholiscm and it’s mechanisms was really just a route to get access to victims for the evil people.
We don’t say that Scouting is responsible for creating abusers, or Swimming clubs or families, where by far the most abusing goes on, so why would we blame Catholicism?

splinter65

Achasanai wrote: »

I imagine that applies to popes, archbishops, bishops, and priests. Where does Catholicism begin and individual actions end?

Anyone who used their position in RCC to abuse anyone else or hide an abuser ( a tiny proportion of Catholics) excommunicated themselves. The many many millions who are innocent need have no concern.

amcalester

splinter65 wrote: »

Anyone who used their position in RCC to abuse anyone else or hide an abuser ( a tiny proportion of Catholics) excommunicated themselves. The many many millions who are innocent need have no concern.

Is this official from the church or just how you attempt to square that particular circle?

eviltwin

splinter65 wrote: »

Anyone who used their position in RCC to abuse anyone else or hide an abuser ( a tiny proportion of Catholics) excommunicated themselves. The many many millions who are innocent need have no concern.

As a survivor of clerical abuse I find that cold comfort when the people responsible still hold onto their jobs as representatives of the CC.

Cabaal

splinter65 wrote: »

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/despite-scandals-over-1000-british-to-become-catholic-at-easter

Great to see this. It’s amazing considering all the horrific things done by people pretending to be Catholics that these people can see past that and discover that there is only one thing that’s true and real and that’s Catholicism.

So those that committed abuse and helped cover up abuse were pretending to be Catholics?

If that's the case you have serious problem due to the countless priests, nuns, bishops, cardinals and even popes that were "pretending"

splinter65

Cabaal wrote: »

So those that committed abuse and helped cover up abuse were pretending to be Catholics?

If that's the case you have serious problem due to the countless priests, nuns, bishops, cardinals and even popes that were "pretending"

They’re not really countless though, very tiny proportion of clerics really. Many many many more were impeccable.

amcalester

splinter65 wrote: »

They’re not really countless though, very tiny proportion of clerics really. Many many many more were impeccable.

Put a number on it then!

Achasanai

splinter65 wrote: »

They’re not really countless though, very tiny proportion of clerics really. Many many many more were impeccable.

A tiny (although that's debatable) proportion involved in the actual abuse and rape of children (and others), but you would need the hierarchy to be complicit in order to facilitate the movement around of priests, as well as local clergy who kept quiet rather than voicing concerns.


I get that there could be some kind of stockholm syndrome involved in people who were already members of the RCC, but for people to know what the church was (and is) up to, as well as the ongoing refusal to make reparations to the victims, is hardly a cause for celebration.

splinter65

Achasanai wrote: »

A tiny (although that's debatable) proportion involved in the actual abuse and rape of children (and others), but you would need the hierarchy to be complicit in order to facilitate the movement around of priests, as well as local clergy who kept quiet rather than voicing concerns.


I get that there could be some kind of stockholm syndrome involved in people who were already members of the RCC, but for people to know what the church was (and is) up to, as well as the ongoing refusal to make reparations to the victims, is hardly a cause for celebration.

I’ve specified the enablers of the abusers are equally if not actually even more guilty then the actual perpetrators.
Educated adults being baptized into the one true church despite the scandals is cause for huge celebration.
Once people searching for the truth find it (and the body and blood of Jesus is the only truth) it’s the beginning of their lives all over again.

ohnonotgmail

splinter65 wrote: »

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/despite-scandals-over-1000-british-to-become-catholic-at-easter

Great to see this. It’s amazing considering all the horrific things done by people pretending to be Catholics that these people can see past that and discover that there is only one thing that’s true and real and that’s Catholicism.

How is this not the No True Scotsman fallacy?

Cabaal

splinter65 wrote: »

I’ve specified the enablers of the abusers are equally if not actually even more guilty then the actual perpetrators.

The highest positions in the catholic church are guilty of cover ups and in some cases abuse and you want to try claim they are not Catholics.

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic, the vast majority of Catholics hold the current and all previous popes in extremely high regard, the Vatican also holds them in high regard

Achasanai

splinter65 wrote: »

I’ve specified the enablers of the abusers are equally if not actually even more guilty then the actual perpetrators.
Educated adults being baptized into the one true church despite the scandals is cause for huge celebration.
Once people searching for the truth find it (and the body and blood of Jesus is the only truth) it’s the beginning of their lives all over again.

So, people joining an organisation where a significant percentage (I would say a majority) enabled the mass rape of children is a cause for celebration? At what point does the 'truth' of the RCC come into question when you have the whole organisation involved in either perpetrating mass abuse or enabling it?

henryporter

It would appear that Christian gullibility extends beyond the basics of deities, miracles, angels, and so on to this heinous belief that abuse wasn't systematically perpetrated and covered up to protect the Catholic Church at large. Its offensive to victims of clerical abuse to be so blase (as well as being characteristically indifferent as a 'Christian').

Peregrinus

henryporter wrote: »

It would appear that Christian gullibility extends beyond the basics of deities, miracles, angels, and so on to this heinous belief that abuse wasn't systematically perpetrated and covered up to protect the Catholic Church at large. Its offensive to victims of clerical abuse to be so blase (as well as being characteristically indifferent as a 'Christian').

It certainly wasn't systematically perpetrated to protect or benefit the church; how could it possibly have had that outcome? But, yes, it was systematically covered up, and systematically mishandled in other ways, with the object of protecting the institutional, professional church. And this greatly magnified the already hideous effect of the abuses committed.

Hobosan

It's unpalatable but true to say that sometimes in trying to protect children, we put them in more danger.

We trust those closest to us in our communities when the closest people are the ones most likely to cause harm.

If parents sent their teenage son/daughter on the plane to England to meet relatives, and they were abused/abducted on the way, people will say that's bad parenting. Yet by sending them over with a grandparent they are drastically increasing the chance of abduction/harm, nevermind the fact that the relatives they are sending them to are more likely to abuse or abduct them than anyone else throughout the journey if they travelled alone.

I know people will hate this, but I believe parents are more interested in shifting responsibility for potential abuse sometimes. If the grandparent on the flight seemed trustworthy the whole time then nobody would blame the parents if they uncharacteristically abused the teenager on the journey, but if you sent them alone which decreases liklihood of abuse, and something happened, then you will be heavily castigated for that decision.

People think they are being risk averse when they are actually increasing risk sometimes. It's a very emotional decision whether to allow young people out in the world, but if there's someone else that will get blamed it makes that decision easier. There are utterly depraved cases of people using this human inclination against them.

These cases in the United States being a notable example of how easy it is to convince people to do depraved acts if someone else is perceived to be responsible: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_search_phone_call_scam

The Mount Washington case is a microcosm of how abuse and cover ups are so easy to orchestrate.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

It certainly wasn't systematically perpetrated to protect or benefit the church; how could it possibly have had that outcome? But, yes, it was systematically covered up, and systematically mishandled in other ways, with the object of protecting the institutional, professional church. And this greatly magnified the already hideous effect of the abuses committed.

Probably not for this thread, but at the level of say the Magdalene Laundries, I think you could reasonably argue that there was systematic abuse by the church for the benefit of the church.

BloodBath

The RCC in the last 50 years alone in Ireland are responsible for systematic child trafficking, rape, physical, mental and sexual abuse, slavery and murder as well as brain washing the majority of people into being complete asshats who accepted this nonsense.

This went from the bottom to the top and was covered up every step of the way. Looking at accounts from other parts of the world they did they exact same thing there. It was the majority. The organisation and people who support it are evil.

I look forward to the 800 babies bodies in Tuam being exhumed and investigated. You might wake up then.

This is coming from someone who has faith in god by the way. I have 0 faith in the church however. RCC apologists make me sick.

splinter65

Achasanai wrote: »

So, people joining an organisation where a significant percentage (I would say a majority) enabled the mass rape of children is a cause for celebration? At what point does the 'truth' of the RCC come into question when you have the whole organisation involved in either perpetrating mass abuse or enabling it?

The majority enabled the mass rape of children? Please explain this. Thanks.

splinter65

BloodBath wrote: »

The RCC in the last 50 years alone in Ireland are responsible for systematic child trafficking, rape, physical, mental and sexual abuse, slavery and murder as well as brain washing the majority of people into being complete asshats who accepted this nonsense.

This went from the bottom to the top and was covered up every step of the way. Looking at accounts from other parts of the world they did they exact same thing there. It was the majority. The organisation and people who support it are evil.

I look forward to the 800 babies bodies in Tuam being exhumed and investigated. You might wake up then.

This is coming from someone who has faith in god by the way. I have 0 faith in the church however. RCC apologists make me sick.

You have evidence of child trafficking rape and slavery of children by the church here in Ireland last year and over the last couple of years? Who have you reported this to may I ask? The Gardai? When did this happen?

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

Probably not for this thread, but at the level of say the Magdalene Laundries, I think you could reasonably argue that there was systematic abuse by the church for the benefit of the church.

Yes, in the sense that the business model, so to speak, required the abusive treatment of the inmates in order to be economically viable, and keeping it economically viable served the purpose of the convent/religious order.

Three points (I think, related points):

1. Although that was systematic abuse for the benefit of the convent/order, it wasn't systematic sexual] abuse. Which is not to excuse or minimise it.

2. It wasn't covered up - as in, it was well-known that conditions in the Magdalene Laundries were severe. We have no activities here analogous to religious superiors transferring abusers, concealing activities, etc. This wasn't necessary, becaue the general public broadly considered grim treatment/conditions in the Magdalen Laundries to be fitting, and wasn't interested to enquire into the details.

3. It wasn't just for the benefit of the convent/order; the whole system also benefitted wider society in dealing with the "scandal" of umarried pregnancy, concealing it, discouraging it and serving to mark strong social disapprobation and thereby make the rest of us feel good about ourselves. The horrifying fact is that a large proportion of the inmates in the Magdalen Laundries didn't have to be there. They didn't have to enter and, having entered, they could leave at any time. If they stayed, it was partly because, bad and all as the laundries were, the alternatives outside were worse.

sydthebeat

The hand washing in this thread would make Pontius Pilate proud......

BloodBath

splinter65 wrote: »

You have evidence of child trafficking rape and slavery of children by the church here in Ireland last year and over the last couple of years? Who have you reported this to may I ask? The Gardai? When did this happen?

What do you think the Magdalene laundries were? A holiday camp? It was slave labour while the children were taken and sold (child trafficking). Autopsies of the 800 babies in Tuam will show many were murdered. I bet there are other sites like this in Ireland alone as well.

There are countless cases of rape as well on our little island. Many poor young girls were raped by priests then shipped off to the laundry because people would not believe their story.

You have to be completely blind to not see any of this. People like you are why things like this happened and are still happening.

Blowfish

splinter65 wrote: »

I’ve specified the enablers of the abusers are equally if not actually even more guilty then the actual perpetrators.
Educated adults being baptized into the one true church despite the scandals is cause for huge celebration.
Once people searching for the truth find it (and the body and blood of Jesus is the only truth) it’s the beginning of their lives all over again.

Excommunication is propbably the most seriously penalty to apply to Catholics, so if it's the one true church, why did God allow it to be lead by those who you say had excommunicated themselves? Arent those who are excommunicated supposed to be exiled from Christian society, not running the thing?

LuasSimon

Lot of valid points here . I can only speak from my own perspective but my catholic interactions have been positive , none of the priests I encountered in my parish were ever accused of anything and a couple of them to be fair did outstanding work building community halls etc .
At a personal level my family live saw plenty of tragedy and saying a few prayers gave me great hope and calmness at dark times , why should this be such a bad thing ?
Yes lots of bad stuff happened but there’s plenty of people for various reasons got peace of mind / confort etc from mass or a few prayers so yes weed out the bad eggs but give the large amount of Catholics who want to say a prayer a break !

splinter65

BloodBath wrote: »

What do you think the Magdalene laundries were? A holiday camp? It was slave labour while the children were taken and sold (child trafficking). Autopsies of the 800 babies in Tuam will show many were murdered. I bet there are other sites like this in Ireland alone as well.

There are countless cases of rape as well on our little island. Many poor young girls were raped by priests then shipped off to the laundry because people would not believe their story.

You have to be completely blind to not see any of this. People like you are why things like this happened and are still happening.

Where is this still happening that clerics are abusing children in Ireland? You realise that if you have seen this you have to go to the Gardai? you’ve said that this is all happening in the last 50 years. I’m asking you where this has happened in the last 20 years of the 50 even. For some reason you’re pretending that these atrocities are on going. And yes children continue to be raped on this island by their family members. That has nothing to do with the church.
Over 90% of sexually abused children are abused by their own family members.

BloodBath

LuasSimon wrote: »

Lot of valid points here . I can only speak from my own perspective but my catholic interactions have been positive , none of the priests I encountered in my parish were ever accused of anything and a couple of them to be fair did outstanding work building community halls etc .
At a personal level my family live saw plenty of tragedy and saying a few prayers gave me great hope and calmness at dark times , why should this be such a bad thing ?
Yes lots of bad stuff happened but there’s plenty of people for various reasons got peace of mind / confort etc from mass or a few prayers so yes weed out the bad eggs but give the large amount of Catholics who want to say a prayer a break !

Nobody is attacking your faith. I have my own faith in god. I can't overlook hundreds of years of evil by the RCC though. While there may be many good people working for them they are misguided into supporting evil. You are supporting evil by supporting the RCC. That's the point.

You don't have to lose your faith, stop praying, or give up your beliefs. Just stop supporting the church. Do you want to continue worshipping false prophets?

I suggest you study a true history of the RCC to see how evil they truly are. They have the blood of millions on their hands. It's far more than a case of a few bad eggs.

BloodBath

splinter65 wrote: »

Where is this still happening that clerics are abusing children in Ireland? You realise that if you have seen this you have to go to the Gardai? you’ve said that this is all happening in the last 50 years. I’m asking you where this has happened in the last 20 years of the 50 even. For some reason you’re pretending that these atrocities are on going. And yes children continue to be raped on this island by their family members. That has nothing to do with the church.
Over 90% of sexually abused children are abused by their own family members.

It's not happening much in Ireland anymore because the spotlight is on them. It is happening in many other poor countries though. The RCC are a parasite that move around and feed off of the uneducated and vulnerable.

People were still being sent to the Magdeline laundries by the 70's so yes in the last 50 years these things were still happening.

The RCC for hundreds of years have perpetrated pure evil. The onus is on you to learn. Not for me to teach you. Just because they are pretending to be goody 2 shoes now that the spotlight is on them and the internet exists doesn't change that fact.

El_Duderino 09

splinter65 wrote: »

If you break the rules of the Catholic Church to the extent that those who committed, and covered up, the heinous abuses, then you’ve excommunicated yourself really. You can keep going to the sacraments and pretending that you are but youre not.
Only a tiny percentage of the worlds Catholics perpetrated or enabled the abusers.
The fact that the vast vast majority are totally innocent indicates that Catholiscm and it’s mechanisms was really just a route to get access to victims for the evil people.
We don’t say that Scouting is responsible for creating abusers, or Swimming clubs or families, where by far the most abusing goes on, so why would we blame Catholicism?

Nobody can stop an abuser from abusing in the first instance. But once they find out about the abuse they become part of the story. In every instance where a member of the clergy found out about abuse and went to the police, they acted correctly (were there many cases where this happened?). In every I stance where they found out about abuse and tried to hide the abuse and shield the abuser, they became complicit in any future abuse.

Since the latter was RCC policy in practice then obviously the RCC is complicit in the abuse. If Scouting organisations did similar then they would be similarly complicit. It's very simple really