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Despite the scandals...

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    #32
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    BloodBath wrote: »
    It's not happening much in Ireland anymore because the spotlight is on them. It is happening in many other poor countries though. The RCC are a parasite that move around and feed off of the uneducated and vulnerable.

    People were still being sent to the Magdeline laundries by the 70's so yes in the last 50 years these things were still happening.

    The RCC for hundreds of years have perpetrated pure evil. The onus is on you to learn. Not for me to teach you. Just because they are pretending to be goody 2 shoes now that the spotlight is on them and the internet exists doesn't change that fact.

    So you have no evidence or incidents to describe of children or anyone being abused by the Church in Ireland over the last few years, but we are just to take your word for it? Sorry, no. That’s rubbish.


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    #33
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    splinter65 wrote: »
    So you have no evidence or incidents to describe of children or anyone being abused by the Church in Ireland over the last few years, but we are just to take your word for it? Sorry, no. That’s rubbish.

    Just shows how successful the church has been in destroying the evidence.


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    #34
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    splinter65 wrote: »
    So you have no evidence or incidents to describe of children or anyone being abused by the Church in Ireland over the last few years, but we are just to take your word for it? Sorry, no. That’s rubbish.

    Talk about straw manning. I said in the last 50 years and there are hundreds of examples in the last 50 years if you look for them.

    The church in Ireland today is a shadow of it's former size and self. They have moved their numbers to other poorer, less educated countries so they can continue their abuse unimpeded.

    If you regarded yourself to be a good christian and believe in the teachings of the bible then you would see the church are total hypocrites. The bible teaches you to not worship false prophets/idols but the church has you praying to saints, inanimate objects and other false idols. Saint Brigid was 1 of the 3 goddesses of Celtic religion and had nothing to do with Christianity.

    Saint Patrick was likely involved in genocide. The story of him removing the snakes of Ireland was removing the remnants of the Celtic faith and the triple spiral that represent the 3 goddesses of that religion are the snakes and the holy trinity. In fact the majority of stories of the bible are taken from older religions.

    But the fools will still celebrate the killing of our culture.


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    #35
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭homer911


    Wow! A lot of allegations going on in this thread and not a shred of evidence to support them. Calm down folks.

    If the Roman Catholic church wants to celebrate 1000 souls formally joining them, fine. Unfortunately at the same time there are tens of thousands leaving, some to other churches but most giving up on the church. Their departure at this point (imo) is less likely to do with the abuse within the church and more likely to be do with the lack of teaching on the fundamentals of faith, making Roman Catholicism into a rule-following religion where the only thing that is guaranteed is inability to keep the rules


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    #36
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    Not a shred of evidence?

    Are you an ostrich? You have your head in the sand if you think there is no evidence for the allegations presented here.


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    #37
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    BloodBath wrote: »
    Not a shred of evidence?

    Are you an ostrich? You have your head in the sand if you think there is no evidence for the allegations presented here.

    When you find some evidence to support your allegation that children are being sexually abused and enslaved and otherwise abused by the RCC in Ireland in 2019 or even over the last 10 years then bring it here and we will discuss it. Because that is what is being claimed. And that is lies.


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    #38
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    BloodBath wrote: »
    Talk about straw manning. I said in the last 50 years and there are hundreds of examples in the last 50 years if you look for them.

    The church in Ireland today is a shadow of it's former size and self. They have moved their numbers to other poorer, less educated countries so they can continue their abuse unimpeded.

    If you regarded yourself to be a good christian and believe in the teachings of the bible then you would see the church are total hypocrites. The bible teaches you to not worship false prophets/idols but the church has you praying to saints, inanimate objects and other false idols. Saint Brigid was 1 of the 3 goddesses of Celtic religion and had nothing to do with Christianity.

    Saint Patrick was likely involved in genocide. The story of him removing the snakes of Ireland was removing the remnants of the Celtic faith and the triple spiral that represent the 3 goddesses of that religion are the snakes and the holy trinity. In fact the majority of stories of the bible are taken from older religions.

    But the fools will still celebrate the killing of our culture.

    You are alleging that the abuses are ongoing. They are not. That is not strawmanning. That is the truth.


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    #39
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    I never said in 2019 in Ireland now did I. You are continuing with a straw man argument.

    Your argument consists of there are little to no cases in the last 5-10 years and ignoring the hundreds of years of consistent violations of the worst kind before that.

    You think a serial killer is ok if they have not killed in the last year despite killing 100 people in the 50 years before that? No I didn't think so. That's how I feel about the RCC.

    How do you know what is going on in these remote missionaries? You don't and it will probably take decades again for that to be revealed like it was here.

    What will your excuse be when it is revealed that many of the babies in the Tuam septic tank were murdered? Just a bad apple I guess and not the result of systematic oppression, slavery, abuse and child trafficking.


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    #40
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    BloodBath wrote: »
    I never said in 2019 in Ireland now did I. You are continuing with a straw man argument.

    Your argument consists of there are little to no cases in the last 5-10 years and ignoring the hundreds of years of consistent violations of the worst kind before that.

    You think a serial killer is ok if they have not killed in the last year despite killing 100 people in the 50 years before that? No I didn't think so. That's how I feel about the RCC.

    How do you know what is going on in these remote missionaries? You don't and it will probably take decades again for that to be revealed like it was here.

    What will your excuse be when it is revealed that many of the babies in the Tuam septic tank were murdered? Just a bad apple I guess and not the result of systematic oppression, slavery, abuse and child trafficking.

    You describe the abuse as ongoing over the last 50 years. It isn’t. Its very simple. Once again if you know of anyone at all who is abusing a child or an adult, enslaving raping or illegally burying or in any way breaking the law then you need to contact the Gardai.
    I don’t think that it’s going to be the findings that any of the babies in Tuam were murdered. That’s my opinion, you don’t know any more about what the report is going to find then anyone else. You’ll just have to wait and see.


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    #41
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You describe the abuse as ongoing over the last 50 years. It isn’t. Its very simple. Once again if you know of anyone at all who is abusing a child or an adult, enslaving raping or illegally burying or in any way breaking the law then you need to contact the Gardai.
    I don’t think that it’s going to be the findings that any of the babies in Tuam were murdered. That’s my opinion, you don’t know any more about what the report is going to find then anyone else. You’ll just have to wait and see.

    Most of the abuse back then didn't come out until many years later either. You have no clue what they are doing in Africa and South America and other poorer regions.

    Sure because it's perfectly reasonable to dump the bodies of 800 children from a single laundry in a septic tank completely undocumented. Knowing the history of abuse by the RCC I can personally guarantee you that many of those children were murdered. Whether we will get autopsies on 800 bodies remains to be seen or if they can even prove foul play outside of massive bone injuries. This is another massive scandal that has yet to reach the surface decades later but I'm sure you will find an excuse for it.

    How many other sites like this are in Ireland? Do you feel no shame supporting an organisation with a history of so many disgusting abuses? An organisation that through their actions have completely contradicted the teaching of Jesus yet still want you to forgive them. Jesus made friends with a prostitute. The RCC rounded up rape victims, put them into slave labour, while snatching their child and selling it to the highest bidder or dumping it in a septic tank if they couldn't sell it.


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    #42
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,937 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    BloodBath wrote: »
    Most of the abuse back then didn't come out until many years later either. You have no clue what they are doing in Africa and South America and other poorer regions.

    Sure because it's perfectly reasonable to dump the bodies of 800 children from a single laundry in a septic tank completely undocumented. Knowing the history of abuse by the RCC I can personally guarantee you that many of those children were murdered. Whether we will get autopsies on 800 bodies remains to be seen or if they can even prove foul play outside of massive bone injuries. This is another massive scandal that has yet to reach the surface decades later but I'm sure you will find an excuse for it.

    How many other sites like this are in Ireland? Do you feel no shame supporting an organisation with a history of so many disgusting abuses? An organisation that through their actions have completely contradicted the teaching of Jesus yet still want you to forgive them. Jesus made friends with a prostitute. The RCC rounded up rape victims, put them into slave labour, while snatching their child and selling it to the highest bidder or dumping it in a septic tank if they couldn't sell it.

    I often wonder about other Countries and worry that it's going on there. There is not the same access to kids here as there used to be, which is more the reason for it not continuing here in recent years.

    I'm surprised more people have joined up to the organisation, I can understand those who have believed all their lives not willing to give it up, but new recruits to an organisation with such a bleak past is a bit surprising.


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    #43
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    BloodBath wrote: »
    Nobody is attacking your faith. I have my own faith in god. I can't overlook hundreds of years of evil by the RCC though. While there may be many good people working for them they are misguided into supporting evil. You are supporting evil by supporting the RCC. That's the point.

    You don't have to lose your faith, stop praying, or give up your beliefs. Just stop supporting the church. Do you want to continue worshipping false prophets?

    I suggest you study a true history of the RCC to see how evil they truly are. They have the blood of millions on their hands. It's far more than a case of a few bad eggs.

    The local soccer club had a number of coach’s convicted of sexual abuse etc but does that mean I should stop going to soccer matchs ??


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    #44
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,156 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    The local soccer club had a number of coach’s convicted of sexual abuse etc but does that mean I should stop going to soccer matchs ??

    If the management of the club knew of the abuse and did nothing would you still associate yourself with the club?


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    #45
    Hobosan
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Hobosan


    The Catholic Church are bigger than most States so it's no surprise they don't adhere to state law. Their control has been waning but with a bit of strategy they could bring us to kneel in no time. They have the resources.

    They are masters of deception. Few can be riled up against the actions of the Church as they could the British or Saudi Arabians for example. They know how to walk a tightrope. That's not to say they don't do despicable things but they know how to play the game and can outlast generations of bad publicity only to be back to full power.

    They beat you with a finely decorated velvet glove while their messiah says to only worship God and shun false prophets.

    It's the power of the Church that has people transfixed. All the best artists and writers in history are captivated by it. A terrible beauty.


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    #46
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    The local soccer club had a number of coach’s convicted of sexual abuse etc but does that mean I should stop going to soccer matchs ??

    Sadly your analogy falls far short of the history of systematic abuses by the church.

    The church's list of abuses goes far beyond a few bad eggs abusing kids here and there. What if the local soccer club was also enslaving your women, selling their kids, neglecting kids until they died or outright murdering kids. All controlled and covered up by the guys at the top of the FA who live in golden palaces while they profiteer from slave labour and child trafficking and pay 0 taxes on their billions in annual revenue.

    In that case not only would I not support the club. I wouldn't support any club in the jurisdiction of that FA.

    But it wouldn't stop my love of football.


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    #47
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭homer911


    Just a suggestion - maybe we could focus on the original focus of this thread? There are lots of other threads on child abuse


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    #48
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    Fair enough. I can be a bit strong on this subject and maybe it wasn't the right thread for it.

    It just annoys me so sorry if I ruffled any feathers but the truth is the truth.

    Too many people are still asleep.


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    #49
    mooreman09
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭mooreman09


    splinter65 wrote: »
    If you break the rules of the Catholic Church to the extent that those who committed, and covered up, the heinous abuses, then you’ve excommunicated yourself really. You can keep going to the sacraments and pretending that you are but youre not.
    Only a tiny percentage of the worlds Catholics perpetrated or enabled the abusers.
    The fact that the vast vast majority are totally innocent indicates that Catholiscm and it’s mechanisms was really just a route to get access to victims for the evil people.
    We don’t say that Scouting is responsible for creating abusers, or Swimming clubs or families, where by far the most abusing goes on, so why would we blame Catholicism?

    What about Catholics that break rules and Co-Habit and have sex before marriage. Then go to a church for a Catholic wedding but never confess.... Are they still Catholics or technically excommunicated?


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    #50
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    BloodBath wrote: »
    Most of the abuse back then didn't come out until many years later either. You have no clue what they are doing in Africa and South America and other poorer regions.

    Sure because it's perfectly reasonable to dump the bodies of 800 children from a single laundry in a septic tank completely undocumented. Knowing the history of abuse by the RCC I can personally guarantee you that many of those children were murdered. Whether we will get autopsies on 800 bodies remains to be seen or if they can even prove foul play outside of massive bone injuries. This is another massive scandal that has yet to reach the surface decades later but I'm sure you will find an excuse for it.

    How many other sites like this are in Ireland? Do you feel no shame supporting an organisation with a history of so many disgusting abuses? An organisation that through their actions have completely contradicted the teaching of Jesus yet still want you to forgive them. Jesus made friends with a prostitute. The RCC rounded up rape victims, put them into slave labour, while snatching their child and selling it to the highest bidder or dumping it in a septic tank if they couldn't sell it.

    You can “personally garuntee me” or anyone else if absolutely nothing to do with Tuam. You don’t know any more about Tuam then anyone else until the report comes out and to assume anything until then is both supremely arrogant on your behalf and counter productive to the wishes of those directly affected by the report.
    Why on earth would I feel ashamed of something I had no hand act or part in?
    When a brother has been proved to have sexually assaulted his sister do you ask other family members who knew nothing if they are ashamed too?
    When you read about a bullying incident in a semi state that resulted in a suicide do you say all the other staff should be ashamed?
    Is every scout and scout leader who ever lived to be ashamed?
    Are you ashamed of things you didn’t do?


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    #51
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    mooreman09 wrote: »
    What about Catholics that break rules and Co-Habit and have sex before marriage. Then go to a church for a Catholic wedding but never confess.... Are they still Catholics or technically excommunicated?

    They’re not practicing Catholics. They shouldn’t go to Holy Communion unless they’ve been to Confession and you can go to confession and get absolution but only if you are sorry in your heart and determined not to sin again.


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    #52
    mooreman09
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭mooreman09


    splinter65 wrote: »
    They’re not practicing Catholics. They shouldn’t go to Holy Communion unless they’ve been to Confession and you can go to confession and get absolution but only if you are sorry in your heart and determined not to sin again.

    Fully agreed

    There must be very few real Catholics around at the moment. I don't know any - including friends that wed in churches and go to mass every so often.


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    #53
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You can “personally garuntee me” or anyone else if absolutely nothing to do with Tuam. You don’t know any more about Tuam then anyone else until the report comes out and to assume anything until then is both supremely arrogant on your behalf and counter productive to the wishes of those directly affected by the report.
    Why on earth would I feel ashamed of something I had no hand act or part in?
    When a brother has been proved to have sexually assaulted his sister do you ask other family members who knew nothing if they are ashamed too?
    When you read about a bullying incident in a semi state that resulted in a suicide do you say all the other staff should be ashamed?
    Is every scout and scout leader who ever lived to be ashamed?
    Are you ashamed of things you didn’t do?

    I have heard many harrowing tales of those in the laundries. The level of inhumanity and cruelty rivalled that of the SS Nazi's. We shall see now won't we assuming we get an actual investigation and not just an exhumation for reburial. The state has a lot to hide in these matters as well.

    More fail analogies that completely ignore that these systems were put in place by the pope and those at the top of the church and were not just cases of 1 or 2 bad apples. They were systems of power, control and greed that caused the deaths and suffering of millions of people.

    But believe whatever you want to believe. The facts are out there. If you want to support evil that is your choice.


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    #54
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    BloodBath wrote: »
    I have heard many harrowing tales of those in the laundries. The level of inhumanity and cruelty rivalled that of the SS Nazi's. We shall see now won't we assuming we get an actual investigation and not just an exhumation for reburial. The state has a lot to hide in these matters as well.

    More fail analogies that completely ignore that these systems were put in place by the pope and those at the top of the church and were not just cases of 1 or 2 bad apples. They were systems of power, control and greed that caused the deaths and suffering of millions of people.

    But believe whatever you want to believe. The facts are out there. If you want to support evil that is your choice.

    You’re admitting now that if the Tuam report isn’t what you want it to be that you will label it a whitewash. How convenient for you.
    The Nazis were responsible for the torture execution starvation and death of at least 7 million people in a 6 year period. When you compare them to the Mercy nuns you denigrate and downgrade every single one of those 7 million.
    But the left are shameless in describing every single solitary person not on the left as a Nazi, to the point where Nazism is now meaningless to a whole generation of young people.
    I hope you never have to experience what Nazism actually really means because I think you’ll find that it’s not the same as being in a convent. At all.


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    #55
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    The local soccer club had a number of coach’s convicted of sexual abuse etc but does that mean I should stop going to soccer matchs ??

    You want to use this example? Grand do, let's go....

    If the FAI were involved in moving sexual abusing coaches around to different clubs, silencing abuse victims and covering up abuse.... Would you want to have anything to do with the FAI?

    What if the FAI was still refused to release its records to international investigators and had still not paid the millions owed to abuse victims?

    Any sane person wouldn't touch the FAI or GAA in this situation, but with the catholic church people just turn a blind eye and stick their fingers in the ears.

    It's beyond disturbing. You enable this behaviour by supporting the organisation.

    By all means by a Christian and believe in the Bible if it works for you, but supporting the catholic church as an organisation is questionable


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    #56
    OU812
    Registered Users Posts: 6,035 ✭✭✭OU812


    Blind faith = None so blind as those the don't wish to see.


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    #57
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You’re admitting now that if the Tuam report isn’t what you want it to be that you will label it a whitewash. How convenient for you.
    The Nazis were responsible for the torture execution starvation and death of at least 7 million people in a 6 year period. When you compare them to the Mercy nuns you denigrate and downgrade every single one of those 7 million.
    But the left are shameless in describing every single solitary person not on the left as a Nazi, to the point where Nazism is now meaningless to a whole generation of young people.
    I hope you never have to experience what Nazism actually really means because I think you’ll find that it’s not the same as being in a convent. At all.

    If you want to keep putting words in my mouth sure. If an independent commission properly investigates it with autopsies of all 800 children then I will accept the result.

    Please save your indignation for somebody else. My own grandfather was in Auschwitz for 4 years. The church were just as bad as the Nazi's. All fascists trying to control how people live and think through fear and persecution. The RCC are responsible for the deaths and suffering of far more people than the Nazis, granted over a far longer period of time but we don't have to go back as far as even the Nazis to see some of the worst of it. I suggest you look at the last 100 years alone as that is the best documented but by all means have a look at the last 1500 if you want some good horror stories.

    Also I am not on the left. I don't buy into these idiotic political ideologies designed to divide people much like religion.


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    #58
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    BloodBath wrote: »
    If you want to keep putting words in my mouth sure. If an independent commission properly investigates it with autopsies of all 800 children then I will accept the result.

    Please save your indignation for somebody else. My own grandfather was in Auschwitz for 4 years. The church were just as bad as the Nazi's. All fascists trying to control how people live and think through fear and persecution. The RCC are responsible for the deaths and suffering of far more people than the Nazis, granted over a far longer period of time but we don't have to go back as far as even the Nazis to see some of the worst of it. I suggest you look at the last 100 years alone as that is the best documented but by all means have a look at the last 1500 if you want some good horror stories.

    Also I am not on the left. I don't buy into these idiotic political ideologies designed to divide people much like religion.

    You’ll accept the Tuam report if it gives you the verdict you’ve already decided is the correct one, and you won’t if it doesn’t.
    The church have killed more people then the Nazis.... grand.


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    #59
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You’ll accept the Tuam report if it gives you the verdict you’ve already decided is the correct one, and you won’t if it doesn’t.
    The church have killed more people then the Nazis.... grand.

    Nope. Again try reading what I said. Try reading some history books as well while you're at it.

    There have been many genocidal wars instigated by the RCC, the inquisitions all over Europe, and the rampant abduction of women and children all over the world.

    The RCC hate women but love fiddling little boys and their long and sordid history proves this.

    The amazing part is there are so many women in Ireland who will stand by the church despite their history of completely oppressing women for hundreds of years right up until the 70's and 80's in Ireland. It must be some form of Stockholm syndrome. Most of them are old enough to remember what it was like. They really should know better.


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    #60
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    splinter65 wrote: »
    The majority enabled the mass rape of children? Please explain this. Thanks.


    When reports began emerging of systematic rape and abuse of children in the RCC, did those at the top do anything? Bar obfuscating the issue? No, priests were moved around to different parishes when their actions were beginning to get themselves a name. So, yes, the popes and bishops enabled the mass rape of children.


    The same goes to all those priests who stayed quiet when the reports started to emerge, as well as to those priests who, while not actually participating in raping children, said naught as priests were moved around.



    So, yes, the majority.



    In my local parish, a priest started to get a 'name' for himself, before one day he was gone (same story with him in the three different parishes he was shipped to after this). Each priest in this parish knew exactly what he was up to, but said nothing. This was replicated throughout parishes in every diocese, as well as in other institutions controlled by the church.


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    #61
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,967 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    If the management of the club knew of the abuse and did nothing would you still associate yourself with the club?

    This is the important thing. What did they do once they found out about an abuser amongst them. The proper thing to do is to act in the children's best interest which is to go to the police and get the abuser arested and convicted if it turns out to be a true allegation.

    The wrong thing to do is to put the reputation of the organisation ahead of children's interests. Ignoring the allegations, silencing victims, shielding the abuser from investigation and prosecution.

    The most evil thing to do would be to move the abuser to another area where they can abuse more children. Telling the police was never Catholic Church policy in practice. Instead they systematically chose the interest of the church over the children.

    They chose the most evil possible policy. Guardians of morality, my hoop.

    If a football club or Scout group acted the same way then they would be equally culpable. The catholics were able to maintain discipline and ensure none of their people did the right thing by telling the police. They lost all credibility when that came to light. Most people will never forgive that kind of evil behaviour.


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