End of #metoo

05-12-2018 1:31am

leggo wrote: »

I said don’t reply to my post unless the thing everyone is hysterical about happened to you. So far, zero takers in the first few hours. I expect some newly registered users and some dodgy-sounding stories overnight.

An article was posted about men taking proactive action to avoid being accused by some nutter. We then had some stories or similar from posters.

You asking that only people who have been accused post, is not only moronic, it's missing the entire point of the conversation, since it's specifically about avoiding being accused.

Outlaw Pete · 05-12-2018 2:54am

leggo wrote: »

I said don’t reply to my post unless the thing everyone is hysterical about happened to you. So far, zero takers in the first few hours. I expect some newly registered users and some dodgy-sounding stories overnight.

So let me get this straight: you're expecting men who are long time regulars on Boards to share times in the lives that they've been falsely accused of sexually assaulting women? A crime which is seen as one of (if not) the most abhorrent crimes in our society and one which is increasingly being seen as the accused being 'Guilty until proven innocent' than it's traditional converse and which regularly sees the usual suspects out in force telling us that 'Not Guilty =/= Innocent'.

Yeah, a real head scratcher why you've had zero takers so far on your request.

Quite frankly I think what is going on today is just going to lead to even more false allegations being made going forward, and there is already some good recent evidence that it's for sure in the post, as even children are making false allegations and at younger and younger ages too and it's hardly surprising with some attitudes about that are regularly trivializing them, suggesting they won't have any longstanding effects on blokes.

But anyway, I think you'll have to make do with some articles on men who for sure have had their lives destroyed by false allegations, although I doubt that will change your mind, horses and water come to mind.

https://www.inquisitr.com/5110462/group-of-mean-girls-falsely-accuse-boy-of-sexual-assault-because-they-dont-like-him-school-does-nothing/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5574923/Teacher-falsely-accused-groping-students-adopted-child-removed.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8828589/Teachers-lives-ruined-by-false-allegations-warns-minister.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIG7nXR4LZQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAS8MSlDzxo

Then there's of course the sad case of the Jay Cheshire and the effect a false allegation had on him (and his family):

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/young-womans-agony-over-mum-10512152

#MeToo has largely been a load of baloney ever since Weinstein first appeared in it's crosshairs. Before that, from what I have seen, it seemed to have been harmless enough, something that was low level and was really more about women sharing experiences of harassment than the self serving vigilantism which it is today and largely for political end.

About 1% of the anger that was directed at those who had apparently enabled Weinstein and facilitated him went where it should have, and that was at the women who walked into the Weinstein Company boardroom, armed to the teeth with evidence that he was abusing his position, saying they had enough and were taking it further, but yet changed their mind when he, or his brother, got their cheque books out and that for me shows us that this has always been more about trying to take down the ever elusive patriarchy than anything else, otherwise the women who turned a blind eye to Weinsteins behaviour wouldn't have all got a free pass.

One of the corner stones of justice in a healthy society, and particularly with regards to crimes of a sexual nature, is due process and the quicker we get back to that the better as allegations being made on social media has done no good whatsoever and the toll for it having done so has for the most been ignored.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2018/08/03/the-metoo-suicides/

Enough.

Zorya · 05-12-2018 6:37am

meeeeh wrote: »

Dismissive attitude like yours makes victims feel embarrassed because apparently what is happening to them isn't really that bad. And if they mention it later it's just dissmised as bit of hysteria from those who were not brave enough to shout stop. Screw that, just because I had no bruises it doesn't mean that part of my childhood didn't end that day.

.

I can't remember exactly my age but I was young because my sternum was the perfect height for the bus driver to keep grinding his erection into it as he held me close at the Brownies disco, and every time I made good my escape he followed and the troop leader, a lady, insisted I dance with him some more.

Horrible **** happens. It is not the same as being set upon and raped. It's the conflating of all sexual deviancy that I find disturbing

leggo · 05-12-2018 9:22am

I didn’t say don’t reply in the topic, you can chat away amongst yourselves if you want. Just please don’t talk to me because I don’t care about your articles and YouTube videos about this. I find this passionate anti-#MeToo sentiment from lads totally creepy.

Still no takers anyway. Nobody has firsthand experience of the thing they’re worried about but still wants to act like it’s a thing. Okay.

Fann Linn · 05-12-2018 9:25am

leggo wrote: »

I didn’t say don’t reply in the topic, you can chat away amongst yourselves if you want. Just please don’t talk to me because I don’t care about your articles and YouTube videos about this. I find this passionate anti-#MeToo sentiment from lads totally creepy.

Still no takers anyway. Nobody has firsthand experience of the thing they’re worried about but still wants to act like it’s a thing. Okay.

So unless you've been raped you can't talk about rape. You better have a word with Noeline Blackwell of the Rape Crisis Centre so.

Dalomanakora · 05-12-2018 9:36am

I was raped as a teenager. First serious boyfriend, bit older than me, I was a virgin, didn't want it, said no, and well, you can guess what happened. When I finally told our friends because I needed support, they turned on me. I was a lying whore, he didn't do it, I wanted to have sex with him.

And I fcuking hate what the metoo movement has become. At first, when it was women bravely sharing their harrowing experiences on social media, I applauded it. We should not be silenced and we should be able to talk about what happened to us.

I didn't post anything though. I knew what'd happen. I knew it'd turn into a certain minority of women posting about the man who tried to chat them up, embellishing the story. I saw more than one friend post their story when I'd been on that night out with them and their version was false.

Unfortunately what started as a wonderful, empowering movement, has become a misandrist witch hunt.

Zorya · 05-12-2018 9:41am

Dalomanakora wrote: »

I was raped as a teenager. First serious boyfriend, bit older than me, I was a virgin, didn't want it, said no, and well, you can guess what happened. When I finally told our friends because I needed support, they turned on me. I was a lying whore, he didn't do it, I wanted to have sex with him.

And I fcuking hate what the metoo movement has become. At first, when it was women bravely sharing their harrowing experiences on social media, I applauded it. We should not be silenced and we should be able to talk about what happened to us.

I didn't post anything though. I knew what'd happen. I knew it'd turn into a certain minority of women posting about the man who tried to chat them up, embellishing the story. I saw more than one friend post their story when I'd been on that night out with them and their version was false.

Unfortunately what started as a wonderful, empowering movement, has become a misandrist witch hunt.

Thank you for saying this, D.

This is what I feel too.

Dalomanakora · 05-12-2018 9:46am

Zorya wrote: »

Thank you for saying this, D.

This is what I feel too.

Thank you

I just really hate this idea that men are predators and women are victims. It's happened to me and you can fcuk right off if you want to call me a victim. I'm not a victim, I'm strong, I'm a survivor and I made damn sure I recovered mentally.

I feel for women who haven't recovered. Some will never recover. And speaking out can help massively. By telling my family, I finally realised I needed help and I got it. And I know some women will struggle. I wouldn't judge a woman for struggling after an assault like being groped against her will. It's not the same as rape, but it's still traumatic for some women and I understand that.

But not all men are like this. There are so so many good, kind, decent men in the world who respect and love women. There are lots of men who read signals wrong and went in for a kiss the woman didn't want - and in my experience, they've all apologised when they realised it wasn't wanted.

Men aren't the enemy. Rapists are. And thankfully, the vast majority of men are NOT rapists.

Zorya · 05-12-2018 9:54am

Dalomanakora wrote: »

Thank you

I just really hate this idea that men are predators and women are victims. It's happened to me and you can fcuk right off if you want to call me a victim. I'm not a victim, I'm strong, I'm a survivor and I made damn sure I recovered mentally.

I feel for women who haven't recovered. Some will never recover. And speaking out can help massively. By telling my family, I finally realised I needed help and I got it. And I know some women will struggle. I wouldn't judge a woman for struggling after an assault like being groped against her will. It's not the same as rape, but it's still traumatic for some women and I understand that.

But not all men are like this. There are so so many good, kind, decent men in the world who respect and love women. There are lots of men who read signals wrong and went in for a kiss the woman didn't want - and in my experience, they've all apologised when they realised it wasn't wanted.

Men aren't the enemy. Rapists are. And thankfully, the vast majority of men are NOT rapists.

+100 D

I have had assault experiences that would make your blood run cold and they deeply traumatised me, but I also feel like a victor for dealing with it. Yes, some people are more traumatised by less for various reasons. And probably with good reason in many cases. I do feel sorry for that.

But to also have inappropriate leg rubbing or leering or smutty talk or innuendo compared to actual life-threatening assault where you fear death at any moment makes me so cross. And like you I never felt the need to blame ''men'' in general. It was that particular human being at that particular time that was wholly to blame. And my good brothers, father, husband, sons, male friends would have cheerfully killed for me if they had been there any of those times.

Metoo is a horribly divisive movement.

meeeeh · 05-12-2018 10:39am

Zorya wrote: »

But to also have inappropriate leg rubbing or leering or smutty talk or innuendo compared to actual life-threatening assault where you fear death at any moment makes me so cross. And like you I never felt the need to blame ''men'' in general. It was that particular human being at that particular time that was wholly to blame. And my good brothers, father, husband, sons, male friends would have cheerfully killed for me if they had been there any of those times.

Metoo is a horribly divisive movement.

Stop with the life threatening nonsense. Wast majority of rape victims are not killed, the rape can be violent, scary but in vast majority of cases it is not life threatening. There is a huge spectre of sexual assault between groping someone and raping and killing someone. Many women are perfectly able to deal with all kinds of stuff (me included) but they shouldn't have to.

And by the way I have no idea who are the hordes who blame all men. Some women being overly hysterical on twitter and some men here are overly hysterical about being falsely accused of rape.

Dalomanakora · 05-12-2018 10:43am

meeeeh wrote: »

Stop with the life threatening nonsense. Wast majority of rape victims are not killed, the rape can be violent, scary but in vast majority of cases it is not life threatening.

Yes, god forbid a woman DARE feel in fear of her life when a man is in the middle of doing the most violating, disgusting act that can happen to a woman, against her will. How dare she believe a man as evil as that could possibly stretch to further evil acts!

The poster's sentiments were the bloody same as yours, she just shared her own experience also and you're telling her she's not right to feel the way she did?

meeeeh · 05-12-2018 10:51am

Dalomanakora wrote: »

Yes, god forbid a woman DARE feel in fear of her life when a man is in the middle of doing the most violating, disgusting act that can happen to a woman, against her will. How dare she believe a man as evil as that could possibly stretch to further evil acts!

The poster's sentiments were the bloody same as yours, she just shared her own experience also and you're telling her she's not right to feel the way she did?

No I'm saying that people can be scared and traumatised even when objectivity wast majority of cases don't end in victims death. And I don't think rape where someone was drugged or just pinned down or something similar should be dismissed as not being as bad. Someone in abusive relationship can be suffering hugely and just to dismiss it as not being life threatening is ridiculous.

I wasn't commenting experience but on insinuation that there is either rape under threat of life or a bit of groping and very little else.

B0jangles · 05-12-2018 10:55am

Yeah, there's always going to be someone who had an experience even worse than the one you* experienced, so dismissing other people's trauma as trivial because yours was worse seems both pointless and mean-spirited to me.

*non-specific 'you'

leggo · 05-12-2018 10:55am

See the gaping flaw in the article posted earlier in the week, and the prevailing sentiment of some here, is the arrogant notion that *their* trauma is somehow the only relevant one and that anyone else’s is lesser, therefore if she chooses not to want to speak about it, nobody should. No, that’s just her own experience, and by that token people can come out and say to her “Well you only got raped once, I was a prisoner of war and used to get gang raped every day so you can’t talk to me about trauma!” It’s not a reasonable attitude to have by any metric.

The thing is nobody is *trying* to compare traumas. That’s not what’s happening here. Nobody is saying “my experience is the worst, look at me.” Yes violent rape is worse than casual groping in a nightclub, that doesn’t mean that casual groping is okay and shouldn’t be spoken about because it ‘lessens’ the impact of rape. That’s such a rudimentary understanding of the issue. It’d be like someone moaning about workplace bullying and me saying “Well at least you weren’t murdered!!” As harrowing as it is to read through victims’ experiences, being a victim of something doesn’t make you an expert in how to fix that thing. If I get slapped by a scumbag in the street, they don’t slap the knowledge of how to rehabilitate under-educated youths into fully functional members of society into me like.

The problem with that attitude is that it, if you play through her wishes and it prevails, it actually achieves the end she’s trying to avoid: people being afraid of coming out and speaking because they feel what they say is insignificant. It also gives the creepy lads who claim to care about ‘the integrity of the law’ (you don’t mate, literally not one person on this planet believes that you do) ammo as they try minimise the issue when it’s plain as day to see their actual bugbear with it is because they’re worried about a few incidents that people in their past might speak out about. They want to discredit the movement so they can get away unscathed if anything comes out about them, so the people they’re afraid of can’t speak up. It’s ****ing obvious as anything, even on boards. Come at me all you like with a case from the back arse of Australia two years ago that you think validates your stance, you’re just outing yourself on one of the biggest websites in Ireland as a rapey prick.

Rape is bad. Sexual assault/groping is bad. Being creepy is bad. One being worse doesn’t make the other okay. If people (not just men) are scared, good. It’s good to be scared of breaking the law. Sometimes I get really wound up about what I perceive as an injustice in the moment and want to punch someone perpetrating it, but I’m scared of going to prison and ruining my life, so I don’t and society is better off for it (as am I). But, as with any law, if you’ve no plans of breaking it or are sure you’ve never broken it before, you’ve nothing to be afraid of.

Zorya · 05-12-2018 10:58am

meeeeh wrote: »

No I'm saying that people can be scared and traumatised even when objectivity wast majority of cases don't end in victims death. And I don't think rape where someone was drugged or just pinned down or something similar should be dismissed as not being as bad. Someone in abusive relationship can be suffering hugely and just to dismiss it as not being life threatening is ridiculous.

I wasn't commenting experience but on insinuation that there is either rape under threat of life or a bit of groping and very little else.

But you know that is not what I am saying. However metoo conflates ALL sexual assault and wrongly so. Perhaps you could read the Ann Sterzinger piece I posted a while back, she expresses it better.

And you did say '' stop with the life threatening nonsense'' - that is what you said. You were allowed say your experience, but you pooh-poohed anothers. In one case in a remote place in rural Turkey I was suddenly jumped and pushed to the ground by a group of 4 middle aged drunk and aggressive men, who proceeded to rip off my clothes, all lying on top of me in a frenzy, suffocating me, and I absolutely feared I would die. Only for the intervention of a very old man who happened to pass by, and who called them to their senses, I believe I was a goner. So I am not going to reply to you anymore, because you contemptuously dismiss other peoples perspectives eg ''stop with the life threatening nonsense''.

Zorya · 05-12-2018 11:00am

B0jangles wrote: »

Yeah, there's always going to be someone who had an experience even worse than the one you* experienced, so dismissing other people's trauma as trivial because yours was worse seems both pointless and mean-spirited to me.

*non-specific 'you'

No, just fcuking no. I am tired of this. Some lech in the office grabbing your ass or making a comment about your tits IS NOT THE SAME AS RAPE. It is not even in the same fcuking ball park.

I'm out of here, Sick and tired of this metoo ****. Truly.

B0jangles · 05-12-2018 11:03am

Zorya wrote: »

No, just fcuking no. I am tired of this. Some lech in the office grabbing your ass or making a comment about your tits IS NOT THE SAME AS RAPE. It is not even in the same fcuking ball park.

I'm out of here, Sick and tired of this metoo ****. Truly.

You're the only one who is pretending that #metoo is demanding that having your ass grabbed and rape should be treated as being equally bad.
Saying they are both bad is not saying they are the same - how is that so hard to grasp?

like, having your pocket-picked is bad, being violently mugged is also bad - does criminalizing pocket-picking trivialize violent muggings?

Zorya · 05-12-2018 11:06am

B0jangles wrote: »

You're the only one who is pretending that having your ass grabbed and rape are the same thing.

Saying they are both bad is not saying they are the same - how is that so hard to grasp?

Right so saying an infant drinking a cup of coffee is bad is the same as saying an infant being injected with heroin is bad. They are both bad. But they are not in the same ball park at all. Bad is perhaps being stretched to accommodate quantitatively different thinsg here and thereby lessening the impact of its essential meaning.

B0jangles · 05-12-2018 11:09am

Zorya wrote: »

Right so saying an infant drinking a cup of coffee is bad is the same as saying an infant being injected with heroin is bad. They are both bad. But they are not in the same ball park at all. Bad is perhaps being stretched to accommodate quantitatively different thinsg here and thereby lessening the impact of its essential meaning.

Why do you feel entitled to decide what the essential meaning is?

How would you feel if a person who had had an even worse experience than you told you to pipe down, you were lucky, you didn't have it so bad, stop complaining?

silverharp · 05-12-2018 11:11am

leggo wrote: »

If people (not just men) are scared, good. It’s good to be scared of breaking the law. Sometimes I get really wound up about what I perceive as an injustice in the moment and want to punch someone perpetrating it, but I’m scared of going to prison and ruining my life, so I don’t and society is better off for it (as am I). But, as with any law, if you’ve no plans of breaking it or are sure you’ve never broken it before, you’ve nothing to be afraid of.

I think any men that were breaking the law knew they were breaking the law, but be careful what you wish for. I can see more men adopting the Mike Pence rule, not wanting to work or travel alone with women for work, not wanting to mentor women etc.
I saw a tweet yesterday by a journalist saying that a women he had been friendly to at work told him she was uncomfortable about his interest in her and warned him off, the tweet ended with him saying he was gay. Throw in an extra level of crazy and she would have gone straight to HR and reported him first.

Zorya · 05-12-2018 11:15am

B0jangles wrote: »

Why do you feel entitled to decide what the essential meaning is?

How would you feel if a person who had had an even worse experience than you told you to pipe down, you were lucky, you didn't have it so bad, stop complaining?

I don't feel entitled to decide it but in actual fact words do have essential meaning. Or at least they did for they are rapidly losing their meaning in the post-modern context. Experiences are qualitiatively and quantitatively different in the real life that exists outside of feelings. That is the nature of basic matter. Not that the basic nature of matter seems to be all that relevant anymore - we have arrived at a metaphysical impasse.

Good luck.

Mrsmum · 05-12-2018 11:15am

Zorya wrote: »

+100 D

I have had assault experiences that would make your blood run cold and they deeply traumatised me, but I also feel like a victor for dealing with it. Yes, some people are more traumatised by less for various reasons. And probably with good reason in many cases. I do feel sorry for that.

But to also have inappropriate leg rubbing or leering or smutty talk or innuendo compared to actual life-threatening assault where you fear death at any moment makes me so cross. And like you I never felt the need to blame ''men'' in general. It was that particular human being at that particular time that was wholly to blame. And my good brothers, father, husband, sons, male friends would have cheerfully killed for me if they had been there any of those times.

Metoo is a horribly divisive movement.

But who is comparing the two as the same though ?

Because "life-threatening assault" is obviously so dreadful, does that mean "inappropriate leg rubbing or leering or smutty talk" can't be called out at all as being a problem for women ? Wouldn't it be wonderful if little girls born today didn't have to become experts at dealing with this kind of stuff when they are grown up.

B0jangles · 05-12-2018 11:20am

Zorya wrote: »

I don't feel entitled to decide it but in actual fact words do have essential meaning. Or at least they did for they are rapidly losing their meaning in the post-modern context. Experiences are qualitiatively and quantitatively different in the real life that exists outside of feelings. That is the nature of basic matter. Not that the basic nature of matter seems to be all that relevant anymore - we have arrived at a metaphysical impasse.
Good luck.

Ok, we seem to be wandering into Peterson-style flimflam here, but the central point remains the same incorrect assumption - that talking about rape and sexual assault as being related, automatically means claiming they are the same thing.

Rape and sexual assault are part of the same general grouping of offences, but they are not the same thing. Like cars and bicycles are both wheeled vehicles, but a car and a bike are not the same thing.

No-one here is claiming they are the same thing.

Dalomanakora · 05-12-2018 11:20am

I wouldn't compare groping/assault with rape, because I think both are equally disgusting, just to point out. They're both terrible and they can both impact the person on the receiving end very badly. It's not for me to judge who's had a worse experience. I've seen women with objectively less serious experiences than me struggle more, and women with worse experiences struggle less than me.

My post to meeeh was purely because of her "nonsense" comment about fearing for one's life.

leggo · 05-12-2018 11:28am

silverharp wrote: »

I think any men that were breaking the law knew they were breaking the law, but be careful what you wish for. I can see more men adopting the Mike Pence rule, not wanting to work or travel alone with women for work, not wanting to mentor women etc.
I saw a tweet yesterday by a journalist saying that a women he had been friendly to at work told him she was uncomfortable about his interest in her and warned him off, the tweet ended with him saying he was gay. Throw in an extra level of crazy and she would have gone straight to HR and reported him first.

If a man is actively scared of being accused of sexual assault that they would take active measures in their life to avoid it, does that sound like a person women should want to be mentored by?

I’m a man. Zero fear on my part. I work with all women and chat away all day to them, I’ll go for drinks with them in groups or one-on-one and get plastered and wake up the next day not the least bit concerned if I was creepy or sexually harassed them because I know I haven’t/won’t. I’ve had sex with my share of women in the past and I sleep soundly at night knowing none of them will accuse me of anything (because I know nothing happened) and that, should one go absolutely bonkers and do so, it’ll be dealt with and I’ll suffer minimal inconvenience. I’ve done nothing, I’m not going to do anything, the law will prove as much if it ever somehow came to it, I’ve nothing to worry about. Simple.

ohnonotgmail · 05-12-2018 11:29am

silverharp wrote: »

I think any men that were breaking the law knew they were breaking the law, but be careful what you wish for. I can see more men adopting the Mike Pence rule, not wanting to work or travel alone with women for work, not wanting to mentor women etc.
I saw a tweet yesterday by a journalist saying that a women he had been friendly to at work told him she was uncomfortable about his interest in her and warned him off, the tweet ended with him saying he was gay. Throw in an extra level of crazy and she would have gone straight to HR and reported him first.

I dont think Mike Pence is the role model that men that men should be following.

meeeeh · 05-12-2018 11:31am

Mrsmum wrote: »

But who is comparing the two as the same though ?

Because "life-threatening assault" is obviously so dreadful, does that mean "inappropriate leg rubbing or leering or smutty talk" can't be called out at all as being a problem for women ? Wouldn't it be wonderful if little girls born today didn't have to become experts at dealing with this kind of stuff when they are grown up.

That's exactly it. I intentionally didn't mention other experiences but I was also stalked twice, in Turkey I was pulled into shops in Bazar because men wanted to talk to me, someone tried to rape me in the hostel (I was right type of blonde at the time and apparently fair game), some streaker was cycling around me in the car park and threatened to rape me in the middle of the night. I don't even remember how many times I was groped but I know it happened at least twice. This **** is just tiring to deal with. Only attempted rape properly screwed me for a year or two but I don't think a drunk leering at me in a restaurant and telling my father what a nice sexy mistress he has was the most pleasant experience either. Do I expect prison sentences for stuff like that? No I don't. But I wish is that a man or woman who behaved like that or grabbed someones bottom would be told to stop by those around them. Not just it being dismissed as bit of a joke.

Mrsmum · 05-12-2018 11:34am

Re connecting lesser offences to rape, both of which are awful but to different degrees, how do we know that the rapists out there aren't getting comfort/permission in their warped minds from the general disrespect they see happening towards women allowing them to do their sickening worst. How do we know that their first actions weren't groping etc before they progressed to rape. And that doesn't mean all gropers go on to become rapists. But maybe the lesser stories of metoo and the impact of the general population checking their behaviour more carefully will cut out this comfort zone for actual rapists. Almost like the way zero tolerance to small crimes prevented bigger crimes in New York.

silverharp · 05-12-2018 11:38am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I dont think Mike Pence is the role model that men that men should be following.

Why not? work is work and its not disrespectful , Im pretty sure Mike Pence’s wife think the Mike Pence rule is great

leggo · 05-12-2018 11:52am

silverharp wrote: »

Why not? work is work and its not disrespectful , Im pretty sure Mike Pence’s wife think the Mike Pence rule is great

It’s a lot of effort to go to when the flip side is just “Be normal.”

ohnonotgmail · 05-12-2018 11:53am

silverharp wrote: »

Why not? work is work and its not disrespectful , Im pretty sure Mike Pence’s wife think the Mike Pence rule is great

because his attitude is based on fear. fear of women in general and probably his wife in particular. it isn't healthy.

up for anything · 05-12-2018 12:25pm

For me, #MeToo brings much needed attention to the hundreds of thousands of little sexual assaults that take place every day to people. Maybe if people are made to realise that ass slapping or unasked for leaning in for hugs was extremely out of order which it is then there would be less leeway given to rapists and serious sexual assaulters all of which would make the world a much nicer place to move through. If, for instance, a stranger in a nightclub or late bar didn't get away with grabbing a girl from behind and nibbling on her ear as she struggles to get away wasn't let off the hook by the oh well he was only messing/he was drunk/she was wearing* brigade then any kind of rape might well be less common than it is. Same goes for ball-grabbing women.

James Brown · 05-12-2018 3:09pm

A lot of calling out the #metoo is coming from folk nervous and wanting to go back to a time were women kept quiet unless they were really really raped. It's sad. It you're not acting like a scumbag you'll be fine. Yes there are exceptions, but that's true of anything. While there are indeed people who might use this for gain or revenge, their are also those who would like to see it all go away. All this does is make it harder for victims to come forward. That's the major take away from all this feminazi sh*te.
I'll get into a lift with a woman, give a woman a lift. The idea that it's common place for women to falsely accuse is nonsense. I've never been accused and I don't know anyone who has been. I do know many women who have been harassed. But that's neither here nor there. Basically all the feminazi talk will achieve is make victims more reluctant to report abuse. Do any of you believe women en masse are all of a sudden going to start falsely accusing people?

James Brown · 05-12-2018 3:12pm

silverharp wrote: »

Why not? work is work and its not disrespectful , Im pretty sure Mike Pence’s wife think the Mike Pence rule is great

He's a religious lunatic for one. Also he believes in 'pray away the gay'.

nullzero · 05-12-2018 3:14pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

A lot of calling out the #metoo is coming from folk nervous and wanting to go back to a time were women kept quiet unless they were really really raped

What does that mean?
Should false rape accusations be entertained because real rape also occurs?

p1akuw47h5r3it · 05-12-2018 3:15pm

leggo wrote: »

If a man is actively scared of being accused of sexual assault that they would take active measures in their life to avoid it, does that sound like a person women should want to be mentored by?

I’m a man. Zero fear on my part. I work with all women and chat away all day to them, I’ll go for drinks with them in groups or one-on-one and get plastered and wake up the next day not the least bit concerned if I was creepy or sexually harassed them because I know I haven’t/won’t. I’ve had sex with my share of women in the past and I sleep soundly at night knowing none of them will accuse me of anything (because I know nothing happened) and that, should one go absolutely bonkers and do so, it’ll be dealt with and I’ll suffer minimal inconvenience. I’ve done nothing, I’m not going to do anything, the law will prove as much if it ever somehow came to it, I’ve nothing to worry about. Simple.

You don't know none of them will accuse you. You just presume they won't. Same way a women who goes home to a mans house presumes he won't rape her. And the vast majority of the time the accusation/rape doesn't happen, but it can. You dont need to change anything you do necessarily, but don't be so naive at the same time.
Also you don't know if you've been creepy or not, it's a subjective thing. This is what is what seemingly worries people. Neill DeGrasse Tyson lifted up a womens sleeve to look at her tattoo, which has now led to him being accused of sexual assault (amongst other accusations). I'd imagine he didn't think himself creep doing that.

What most people have an issue with is the witch hunt that occurs when an allegation that is made, and the seemingly desire for a lowering of the burden of proof when it comes to such allegations or shifting the Burden somewhat onto the accused to prove consent which has happened in Iceland.
https://bigthink.com/aeon-ideas/why-rape-cases-should-not-be-subject-to-reasonable-doubt

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/05/09/cambridge-university-considers-lowering-burden-proof-claims/

https://www.thejournal.ie/iceland-consent-3943673-Apr2018/

Reviews and Books Galore · 05-12-2018 3:29pm

leggo wrote: »

I didn’t say don’t reply in the topic, you can chat away amongst yourselves if you want. Just please don’t talk to me because I don’t care about your articles and YouTube videos about this. I find this passionate anti-#MeToo sentiment from lads totally creepy.

Still no takers anyway. Nobody has firsthand experience of the thing they’re worried about but still wants to act like it’s a thing. Okay.

Why do you find it creepy? Is it because men are involving themselves in areas that affect women? OR because they are menacing/creepy and may be bad men that could hurt women? Or just because men should be active in stopping violence against women? Are women who are against it 'creepy' and menacing?

Bigbagofcans · 05-12-2018 3:41pm

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Why do you find it creepy? Is it because men are involving themselves in areas that affect women? OR because they are menacing/creepy and may be bad men that could hurt women? Or just because men should be active in stopping violence against women? Are women who are against it 'creepy' and menacing?

There are some misogynistic men (and women for that matter) who are relishing in the backlash of the #metoo movement. You see the same posters popping up on threads on Boards for any excuse to criticise women.

Reviews and Books Galore · 05-12-2018 3:43pm

Also, it's interesting how the metoo/general feminism movement has targeted women recently. I guess there are more talks how women can be misogynistic* also and I guess that could be good. Maybe it's because a lot of women voted for trump and there is a bit of a backswing?

*Men can also be misandrist. Actually, men can be very misandrist as, in my opinion, men criticise men more and women criticise women more than the opposite gender.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 05-12-2018 3:47pm

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

There are some misogynistic men (and women for that matter) who are relishing in the backlash of the #metoo movement. You see the same posters popping up on threads on Boards for any excuse to criticise women.

What a ridiculous response. He said lads as lads in general.

Bigbagofcans · 05-12-2018 3:55pm

DanDan6592 wrote: »

What a ridiculous response. He said lads as lads in general.

Ridiculous eh? I didn't interpret him as meaning lads in general.

professore · 05-12-2018 4:41pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

because his attitude is based on fear. fear of women in general and probably his wife in particular. it isn't healthy.

With good reason. As a woman there isn't an accusation that a man can make against you that everyone will believe the man, regardless of evidence, that can destroy your career and livelihood in the same way a sexual misconduct allegation can for a man in 2018.

It is the perfect way to take out a male rival on the corporate ladder, or just someone you don't like. It is completely irrelevant if there is any truth to it or not - it's game over.

There are women out there who would walk on dead bodies to further their own narcissistic agendas. A false sexual assault allegation? Take the guy down and as a bonus get sympathy points. They are the ones Mike Pence is afraid of.

ohnonotgmail · 05-12-2018 4:45pm

professore wrote: »

With good reason. As a woman there isn't an accusation that a man can make against you that everyone will believe the man, regardless of evidence, that can destroy your career and livelihood in the same way a sexual misconduct allegation can for a man in 2018.

It is the perfect way to take out a male rival on the corporate ladder, or just someone you don't like. It is completely irrelevant if there is any truth to it or not - it's game over.

There are women out there who would walk on dead bodies to further their own narcissistic agendas. A false sexual assault allegation? Take the guy down and as a bonus get sympathy points. They are the ones Mike Pence is afraid of.

What a stupid way to go through life. a life of fear and ignorance.

B0jangles · 05-12-2018 4:45pm

professore wrote: »

With good reason. As a woman there isn't an accusation that a man can make against you that everyone will believe the man, regardless of evidence, that can destroy your career and livelihood in the same way a sexual misconduct allegation can for a man in 2018.

It is the perfect way to take out a male rival on the corporate ladder, or just someone you don't like. It is completely irrelevant if there is any truth to it or not - it's game over.

There are women out there who would walk on dead bodies to further their own narcissistic agendas. A false sexual assault allegation? Take the guy down and as a bonus get sympathy points. They are the ones Mike Pence is afraid of.

Do you seriously think a woman who makes false accusations of sexual assaults in an effort to get ahead in her profession is likely to be hired or promoted by any company, ever again?

Just think about what you are suggesting - people mostly do not report workplace harrassment because it very very often damages their career prospects (no-one likes a troublemaker!), but you think there are people who literally make up claims in order to get promotions?

edit: even people who are able to legally prove 100% that their claims of harrassment are valid still tend to get frozen out of their professional field afterwards - they might get a settlement but it tends to come at a very heavy cost, careerwise.

leggo · 05-12-2018 4:57pm

Me: “don’t reply to this particular post if you don’t have a firsthand story.”

Lads who don’t like #MeToo: “He said no but I’m going to do it anyway!”

Hmm.

professore · 05-12-2018 4:59pm

B0jangles wrote: »

Do you seriously think a woman who makes false accusations of sexual assaults in an effort to get ahead in her profession is likely to be hired or promoted by any company, ever again?

It's impossible to prove that an allegation is false - unless it is very specific and you have eyewitnesses or camera footage. I don't believe that AT ALL about not being hired anywhere ever. I personally know a woman who accused a guy of sexual harassment - 100% correctly as the guy was a sleazebag - got a settlement and went on to bigger and better things. Now a guy falsely accused, that's a different story.

And the same goes about allegations of any sort.

Look, I personally don't go about my life worrying about false accusations either - but if I worked in certain fields - politics or media being two - I can see it being a big factor with self obsessed attention seekers doing anything for publicity. I mean two of the "accusations" against Neil DeGrasse Tyson are quite frankly pathetic. Looking for pluto on a tattoo on someone's arm IN PUBLIC at a PUBLIC EVENT ... how the hell is that sexual misconduct????

You see it in the Dail recently with that woman accusing Jerry Buttimer of sexist behaviour when she basically wouldn't shut up and he said she was talking over him, and Arlene Foster claiming calls for her to resign over the Cash for Ash scandal was "misogyny" even though she was just incompetent at best and corrupt at worst.

nullzero · 05-12-2018 5:00pm

leggo wrote: »

Me: “don’t reply to this particular post if you don’t have a firsthand story.”

Lads who don’t like #MeToo: “He said no but I’m going to do it anyway!”

Hmm.

If you don't want to deal with people discussing your opinions and engaging you on them then start a blog.

B0jangles · 05-12-2018 5:04pm

professore wrote: »

It's impossible to prove that an allegation is false. I don't believe that AT ALL about not being hired anywhere ever. I personally know a woman who accused a guy of sexual harassment - 100% correctly as the guy was a sleazebag - got a settlement and went on to bigger and better things. Now a guy falsely accused, that's a different story.

And the same goes about allegations of any sort.

Look, I personally don't go about my life worrying about false accusations either - but if I worked in certain fields - politics or media being two - I can see it being a big factor with self obsessed attention seekers doing anything for publicity. I mean two of the "accusations" against Neil DeGrasse Tyson are quite frankly pathetic.

You see it in the Dail recently with that woman accusing Jerry Buttimer of sexist behaviour when she basically wouldn't shut up and he said she was talking over him, and Arlene Foster claiming calls for her to resign over the Cash for Ash scandal was "misogyny" even though she was just incompetent at best and corrupt at worst.

You just completely invented an extremely implausible circumstance in which someone 'might' falsely claim to have been sexually assaulted as a means of getting ahead in the workplace, in order to give yourself something to worry about.

There is something very Inception-esque about that.

leggo · 05-12-2018 5:05pm

nullzero wrote: »

If you don't want to deal with people discussing your opinions and engaging you on them then start a blog.

Happy to have any and all posts addressed, just like you were able to here. It’s just mad how those who are against an anti-rape movement couldn’t respect one request in one post not to do one thing. Is that a character trait I see emerging??

professore · 05-12-2018 5:18pm

B0jangles wrote: »

You just completely invented an extremely implausible circumstance in which someone 'might' falsely claim to have been sexually assaulted as a means of getting ahead in the workplace, in order to give yourself something to worry about.

There is something very Inception-esque about that.

I said I don't worry about it.

What is it with some people ... have you never been in a situation where someone tried to completely screw you over? It's happened to me several times - not with sexual harassment, but the kind of people that screw people over would have no compunction about something like that, where money is involved especially. Practically the whole business world operates like this at times, and it's gender neutral.

End of #metoo

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