General British politics discussion thread

Podge_irl · 05-07-2021 10:26am

fash wrote: »

In a way this was the original plan "do nothing and let people get infected" - but now with the slight addition of having a large chunk of people vaccinated - but not children or young people and hoping that the vaccine wall holds against any variants that arise. Of note the world pays the price if they miscalculate and allow a new variant to arise as a result of the upcoming infection spike (as Europe is already paying for the UK's failures that led to the existence of alpha and the earlier than necessary spread in Europe of delta)

I suspect a new variant is more likely to arise in the other 5 Billion unvaccinated people than it is in the 30 million unvaccinated Brits.

Variants happen - the alpha variant could have just as easily arisen in Ireland or Germany. Delta is also going to become the dominant variant for now and was going to no matter what the UK did, as can be seen from its rise in Australia.

The UK (and everyone) needs to come out of restrictions at some point. There is a perfectly valid argument that having a spike in cases now is better than in autumn/winter. There is no indication that there is disagreement from PHE

05-07-2021 12:01pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

That’s what one of the experts on news talk morning show last week was saying I’ll check Spotify later

Btw you are confusing immunity with efficacy, one you don’t get infected the other you still get infected potentially but might not lead hospitalisation

Best case scenario Covid mutates into something that doesn’t kill as many like Spanish flu did, but somehow to surprise of scientists Covid keeps mutating into more virulent and deadlier strains that spread easier. This is where UKs policy of creating a breeding ground is so reprehensible.

We might never have herd immunity to Covid just like we don’t have immunity to common cold

We probably will never have full immunity. The fact we ha w to give out flu jabs every year is testament to that.

We have to go back to normal (whatever that looks like) at some point.

Leroy42 · 05-07-2021 12:16pm

Aegir wrote: »

We probably will never have full immunity. The fact we ha w to give out flu jabs every year is testament to that.

We have to go back to normal (whatever that looks like) at some point.

Sure, but does it make sense that that point is in the midst of a massive rise in daily cases and a new variant that is more transferable?

This line that "well it has to happen at some stage" is close to a strawman, and the government know exactly what they are doing by extolling it.

Who is going to argue for keeping the restrictions for ever? It's akin to 'when did you stop beating your wife?" question.

And we don't have to go back to normal. Thats not how this works. We all want to, we would all prefer to, but simply wanting it doesn't change the fact.
We have been extremely fortunate to have been able to not only discover but produce a vaccine that works and is safe. It would be foolish to think that should the disease mutate that it will be as 'easy' again.

It think that the speed of developing the vaccine has led many to think that the problem is essentially solved and nothing to worry about.

Podge_irl · 05-07-2021 12:23pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

And we don't have to go back to normal. Thats not how this works.

Its how it worked for every other pandemic in human history eventually. The disease will mutate again. The chances of delta being the last significant variant are almost zero. Also, there is absolutely no reason to suspect it would be harder to produce a booster or new vaccine for the variant. The only problem will be rolling it out again if needed (a not insignificant problem granted).

The core argument seems to be that its better to have the spike in summer than winter. There is logic behind it and it is, by all accounts, generally supported in principle by PHE.

Leroy42 · 05-07-2021 12:40pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Its how it worked for every other pandemic in human history eventually. The disease will mutate again. The chances of delta being the last significant variant are almost zero. Also, there is absolutely no reason to suspect it would be harder to produce a booster or new vaccine for the variant. The only problem will be rolling it out again if needed (a not insignificant problem granted).

The core argument seems to be that its better to have the spike in summer than winter. There is logic behind it and it is, by all accounts, generally supported in principle by PHE.

Eventually being the operative word. The numbers do not suggest that eventually is now. It seems very much to be a political decision, ignoring the risks for political gain.

They might end up getting away with it, they won their last bet on the vaccine gap between 1st and 2nd and they have got massive political capital out of that.

So I can completely understand where Johnson and his government as coming from. Popular now, and deal with any issues later on.

devnull · 05-07-2021 12:51pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Eventually being the operative word. The numbers do not suggest that eventually is now. It seems very much to be a political decision, ignoring the risks for political gain.

You also have to remember the majority of Tory voters would be double jabbed at the point the restrictions are lifted and the people who are not double jabbed are going to be people who are not that likely to vote Tory anyway.

They're merely playing to their supporters, most of their supporters who are double jabbed are also the ones that are applying the pressure to remove all restrictions because they have the protection of two jabs whereas others are not so lucky.

The people who are going to be at most at risk here would be those in their 30s and 40s who would have only had one jab by the time that the restrictions are lifted and whilst they can still wear masks and take precautions. They are not going to be able to be fully personally responsible for what happens as they can't control what others do around them in the absence of any restrictions.

Strazdas · 05-07-2021 12:52pm

There seems to be a new narrative developing in Britain that the Delta variant is virtually harmless, as fewer people are being hospitalised or dying.

But that underestimates just how sick people become with Covid. I've a friend in his mid 40s who contracted Covid, is normally as fit as a fiddle and healthy but ended up being pole axed by it and thought he was going to die - despite not being hospitalised.

It seems a very risky / dangerous strategy to downgrade the threat from Delta as Johnson is doing and treat it as if it's just like picking up a cold or the flu.

05-07-2021 12:56pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Eventually being the operative word. The numbers do not suggest that eventually is now. It seems very much to be a political decision, ignoring the risks for political gain.

They might end up getting away with it, they won their last bet on the vaccine gap between 1st and 2nd and they have got massive political capital out of that.

So I can completely understand where Johnson and his government as coming from. Popular now, and deal with any issues later on.

The numbers will always go up and down, the question is do we keep implementing restrictions every time the number go up and yet the hospital number don’t follow suit?

Should we also implement a lockdown every winter to keep the spread of flu under control?

05-07-2021 12:59pm

devnull wrote: »

You also have to remember the majority of Tory voters would be double jabbed at the point the restrictions are lifted and the people who are not double jabbed are going to be people who are not that likely to vote Tory anyway.

They're merely playing to their supporters, most of their supporters who are double jabbed are also the ones that are applying the pressure to remove all restrictions because they have the protection of two jabs whereas others are not so lucky.

Im sorry, but that is absolute nonsense.

Podge_irl · 05-07-2021 1:02pm

Strazdas wrote: »

There seems to be a new narrative developing in Britain that the Delta variant is virtually harmless, as fewer people are being hospitalised or dying.

But that underestimates just how sick people become with Covid. I've a friend in his mid 40s who contracted Covid, is normally as fit as a fiddle and healthy but ended up being pole axed by it and thought he was going to die - despite not being hospitalised.

It seems a very risky / dangerous strategy to downgrade the threat from Delta as Johnson is doing and treat it as if it's just like picking up a cold or the flu.

There also seems to be a narrative that the level of restrictions across Europe are not completely unprecedented and a massive incursion on people's liberties that needs significant compelling reasons. Stopping people getting quite ill is not sufficient. The mantra and logic initially was the need to stop the health services from being overwhelmed - I can happily get on board with that. But if that is not currently a risk then the balance changes.

Leroy42 · 05-07-2021 1:06pm

Aegir wrote: »

The numbers will always go up and down, the question is do we keep implementing restrictions every time the number go up and yet the hospital number don’t follow suit?

Should we also implement a lockdown every winter to keep the spread of flu under control?

Are we really back to saying this is akin to the flu?

Leroy42 · 05-07-2021 1:10pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

There also seems to be a narrative that the level of restrictions across Europe are not completely unprecedented and a massive incursion on people's liberties that needs significant compelling reasons. Stopping people getting quite ill is not sufficient. The mantra and logic initially was the need to stop the health services from being overwhelmed - I can happily get on board with that. But if that is not currently a risk then the balance changes.

The issue is that once it gets out of control it is very difficult to deal with it. We saw it in the US, Italy, UK and recently in India. Where they went from congratulating themselves and dealing with it to full on crisis.

If, and its a a big if, the rapid pread leads to a further mutation and then the vaccine doesn't work as well then the UK could rapidly find itself overrun in the NHS.

By that stage it will be too late to actually stop it and all that can be done is bury the dead and hope for the best.

And this isn't the first time. Exiting 1st lockdown we heard the same arguments. Same with the 2nd. Now the vaccinations are the reason why this time everything is fine.

And they might very well be right. Its a hell of a gamble. And that is exactly what it is. A gamble. Put everything on Red.

When a more sensible, but less popular and harder option, is to maintain controls and look to get even more people vaccinated over the next month or two and then it becomes less of a gamble.

05-07-2021 1:20pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Are we really back to saying this is akin to the flu?

That ain’t what I said, is it.

Leroy42 · 05-07-2021 1:22pm

Aegir wrote: »

That ain’t what I said, is it.

So why are you bring the flu into it? What was the purpose of that line in your post?

Strazdas · 05-07-2021 1:25pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

The issue is that once it gets out of control it is very difficult to deal with it. We saw it in the US, Italy, UK and recently in India. Where they went from congratulating themselves and dealing with it to full on crisis.

If, and its a a big if, the rapid pread leads to a further mutation and then the vaccine doesn't work as well then the UK could rapidly find itself overrun in the NHS.

By that stage it will be too late to actually stop it and all that can be done is bury the dead and hope for the best.

And this isn't the first time. Exiting 1st lockdown we heard the same arguments. Same with the 2nd. Now the vaccinations are the reason why this time everything is fine.

And they might very well be right. Its a hell of a gamble. And that is exactly what it is. A gamble. Put everything on Red.

When a more sensible, but less popular and harder option, is to maintain controls and look to get even more people vaccinated over the next month or two and then it becomes less of a gamble.

I can understand some of the easing of restrictions by Johnson but lifting the ban on indoor mask wearing and on public transport for example seems bonkers - all the indications are that this is an effective measure.

breezy1985 · 05-07-2021 1:31pm

Strazdas wrote: »

I can understand some of the easing of restrictions by Johnson but lifting the ban on indoor mask wearing and on public transport for example seems bonkers - all the indications are that this is an effective measure.

Its a stupid decision. Having to wear a mask on transport or doing shopping really isnt that hard a thing to do and there is no reason to get rid of it this soon

Strazdas · 05-07-2021 1:35pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Its a stupid decision. Having to wear a mask on transport or doing shopping really isnt that hard a thing to do and there is no reason to get rid of it this soon

It all seems to be based on the 'Covid is as good as over' and 'Delta variant is practically harmless' thing that the Tories and the Brexit press are pushing. If nobody has to wear a mask, it will show to Johnson's supporters that the pandemic is at an end and everything is back to normal.

Podge_irl · 05-07-2021 1:40pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

The issue is that once it gets out of control it is very difficult to deal with it. We saw it in the US, Italy, UK and recently in India. Where they went from congratulating themselves and dealing with it to full on crisis.

If, and its a a big if, the rapid pread leads to a further mutation and then the vaccine doesn't work as well then the UK could rapidly find itself overrun in the NHS.

Yes it could. But you can not (or at least should not) implement massively restrictive social measures as a prophylactic. This is an incredibly large expansion of government power and intrusion into personal liberty that needs significant and immediately compelling reasons.

I am not a fan of their marketing of it and their bull**** around "Freedom Day" and all that nonsense. The current UK govt have quite the knack for pomposity and ridiculousness but they are not wildly flying in the face of scientific evidence in this case. There is, as is often the case, very much a split of opinion on the matter. I also don't think removing the mask mandate on public transport is necessary, but then compliance in London doesn't seem great anyway. The difference between a recommendation and an unenforced rule is minimal.

Leroy42 wrote: »

When a more sensible, but less popular and harder option, is to maintain controls and look to get even more people vaccinated over the next month or two and then it becomes less of a gamble.

I'm not all that sure it is less popular. Regardless of the levels of vaccination, as they will never be 100% and nor are the vaccines 100% effective, there will be an increase in cases following any step change in rules. There are models showing that it is better to have that peak in summer than winter. Maybe they are wrong, but they are also not making it up.

05-07-2021 1:47pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

So why are you bring the flu into it? What was the purpose of that line in your post?

it was a straight forward comparison, I thought that was pretty obvious.

every year europe sees a considerable number of deaths from Flu, but there is no lockdown. This would suggest that there is an acceptable number of deaths with regards this particular disease.

Sooner or later, the same will have to apply to Covid as well.

Strazdas wrote: »

It all seems to be based on the 'Covid is as good as over' and 'Delta variant is practically harmless' thing that the Tories and the Brexit press are pushing. If nobody has to wear a mask, it will show to Johnson's supporters that the pandemic is at an end and everything is back to normal.

where are you getting this from? No one is saying that Delta is less harmless at all.

Sam Russell · 05-07-2021 1:52pm

Is there a link between the variants and the AZ vaccine?

AZ was tested in UK, SA, Brazil, and India. Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and Delta in that order.

A virus will mutate - it is their nature. The mutation will either be unsuccessful and die out, or it will be successful and propagate wildly. Now a vaccine against the virus will be successful where it suppresses that virus, but if it is not able to suppress the new variant that will multiply more so and become dominant, just like delta is doing now.

A virus that spreads without symptoms in the many, will infect many more than one the has serious symptoms. A variant that spreads more quickly, will - well, spread more quickly. So the delta variant appears to be able to spread more quickly and have less symptoms on the many, but gives rise to long Covid. Just what no-one wants.

And the UK are about to remove all protective measures.

Strazdas · 05-07-2021 1:53pm

Aegir wrote: »

where are you getting this from? No one is saying that Delta is less harmless at all.

It's being hinted at. British media keeps focussing in on hospitalisations being low with the Delta variant (despite the nearly 30k new cases a day). The clear implication is that the worst of the pandemic is over and Britain can quite easily 'live with' Covid now, therefore few or no restrictions are needed from now on.

05-07-2021 1:57pm

Strazdas wrote: »

It's being hinted at. British media keeps focussing in on hospitalisations being low with the Delta variant (despite the nearly 30k new cases a day). The clear implication is that the worst of the pandemic is over and Britain can quite easily 'live with' Covid now, therefore few or no restrictions are needed from now on.

You seem to be getting confused.

The clear inference is that the vaccines are working.

Podge_irl · 05-07-2021 1:59pm

Strazdas wrote: »

It's being hinted at. British media keeps focussing in on hospitalisations being low with the Delta variant (despite the nearly 30k new cases a day). The clear implication is that the worst of the pandemic is over and Britain can quite easily 'live with' Covid now, therefore few or no restrictions are needed from now on.

Pretty sure the suggestion is more that hospitalisation is low because vaccine rates among the most at risk are high.

Of course, the theory as to the reasoning for it isn't all the relevant. The most pertinent fact is that hospitalsation rates are indeed low.

Strazdas · 05-07-2021 2:03pm

Aegir wrote: »

You seem to be getting confused.

The clear inference is that the vaccines are working.

Yes, I'm aware of the 'link between the virus and hospitalisation has been broken by the vaccines' claim. But the net result is to imply that the Delta variant itself now poses far less of a threat to British society. There are even now demands that GB should stop mass testing and stop publishing daily case numbers.

Podge_irl · 05-07-2021 2:06pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Yes, I'm aware of the 'link between the virus and hospitalisation has been broken by the vaccines' claim. But the net result is to imply that the Delta variant itself now poses far less of a threat to British society. There are even now demands that GB should stop mass testing and stop publishing daily case numbers.

The net result is to imply that Covid in general poses far less of a threat then it did. Which is true. Hard to see how anyone could argue otherwise.

There is always going to be a trade off when the time comes to relax restrictions. There will always be people who want it sooner and people who want it later. I don't particularly blame people for not trusting the current UK govt but I equally don't have much time for anyone proclaiming there to be an obvious and sensible solution.

breezy1985 · 05-07-2021 2:12pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

The net result is to imply that Covid in general poses far less of a threat then it did. Which is true. Hard to see how anyone could argue otherwise.

There is always going to be a trade off when the time comes to relax restrictions. There will always be people who want it sooner and people who want it later. I don't particularly blame people for not trusting the current UK govt but I equally don't have much time for anyone proclaiming there to be an obvious and sensible solution.

Continuing to wear masks on transport and in shops is an obvious and sensible solution. Wearing a mask in a shop has no negative effect on the economy

Tyrone212 · 05-07-2021 2:16pm

Strazdas wrote: »

I can understand some of the easing of restrictions by Johnson but lifting the ban on indoor mask wearing and on public transport for example seems bonkers - all the indications are that this is an effective measure.

Didn't he do the same for schools in England just as Delta was taking off? Idiotic.

ancapailldorcha · 05-07-2021 2:21pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Continuing to wear masks on transport and in shops is an obvious and sensible solution. Wearing a mask in a shop has no negative effect on the economy

Struggling to see the argument there myself. It's on for so little time that you may as well. I'm wondering if the libertarians in the party see it as totemic and have been pressuring him as a result. If the situation here deteriorates after this, it'll look incredibly bad for the government.

Podge_irl · 05-07-2021 2:23pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Continuing to wear masks on transport and in shops is an obvious and sensible solution. Wearing a mask in a shop has no negative effect on the economy

Its not a "solution" for anything. It is of somewhat (likely mild) beneficial impact.

Encouraging people to continue to wear masks seems sensible. Though considering its not enforced I just don't see much difference between encouraging and mandating.

breezy1985 · 05-07-2021 2:29pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Its not a "solution" for anything. It is of somewhat (likely mild) beneficial impact.

Encouraging people to continue to wear masks seems sensible. Though considering its not enforced I just don't see much difference between encouraging and mandating.

If there isnt much difference then why change it. This is a purely political and symbolic move and not following the science as Johnson promised to do

Tell me how · 05-07-2021 2:32pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Its not a "solution" for anything. It is of somewhat (likely mild) beneficial impact.

Encouraging people to continue to wear masks seems sensible. Though considering its not enforced I just don't see much difference between encouraging and mandating.

I can't get over peoples unwillingness to do what they can. The benefits of masks themselves in terms of stopping the movements of droplets in either direction is one thing, but they also signal an awareness that the virus is still a thing and a reminder to do other things such as social distance, wash your hands, use sanitiser etc.

Here in New England, there is a very high rate of people vaccinated, indoor dining and events are ramping up and the mask mandate has been removed for over a month now but it is still advised on public transport and 'requested' in stores if people aren't vaccinated and people continue to wear them. Not everyone, but a significant portion of people and thankfully I haven't seen a single incident of people refusing to wear them (when it was mandatory) or berating others for doing so now when it isn't. They have become something that I think people will adopt of their own free will going forward either when they think they may have a cold, or are interacting with people who likely do.

Given the impact Covid head over the last 15 months, I can't understand why people wouldn't do what they can in an effort to at least not contribute to the virus continuing.

Podge_irl · 05-07-2021 2:36pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

If there isnt much difference then why change it. This is a purely political and symbolic move and not following the science as Johnson promised to do

Because there should, in general, be a pretty high barrier for legally requiring things?

"Science" is not a monolithic thing either.

05-07-2021 2:41pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Continuing to wear masks on transport and in shops is an obvious and sensible solution. Wearing a mask in a shop has no negative effect on the economy

Transport and shops I would agree. They are places where people have no choice in entering, but pubs, restaurants etc people have a choice. If they don't want to risk it, then don't go in.

breezy1985 · 05-07-2021 2:42pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Because there should, in general, be a pretty high barrier for legally requiring things?

"Science" is not a monolithic thing either.

Ok so you agree with Johnson that it needs to change on a liberty and freedom agenda which trump's a keeping people safe agenda.
I think that's very wrong and goes against Johnson's own promise to follow the science and his own science adviser is against him on this.

Tories have been queueing up on BBC today and admitting that lifting restrictions will lead to more hospitalisations and long Covid cases

Tell me how · 05-07-2021 2:45pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Because there should, in general, be a pretty high barrier for legally requiring things?

"Science" is not a monolithic thing either.

UK rolling 7 day average of new cases is currently at 24K, a value that has been rising since the middle of May when it was at 2K.

Podge_irl · 05-07-2021 3:07pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ok so you agree with Johnson that it needs to change on a liberty and freedom agenda which trump's a keeping people safe agenda.
I think that's very wrong and goes against Johnson's own promise to follow the science and his own science adviser is against him on this.

Tories have been queueing up on BBC today and admitting that lifting restrictions will lead to more hospitalisations and long Covid cases

I don't think it "needs" to change right now and I probably wouldn't do so myself but at some point yes it does need to change. However, I also think it will probably have minimal impact given no one is going to be wearing masks in homes or pubs/bars where I suspect most of the transmission will happen as it involves people in close proximity for extended periods with usually insufficient ventilation.

I think removing the need to isolate for vaccinated people, removing the quarantine for travellers, removing the tracking of people in indoor locations are probably all things that should happen either now or soon. I am reasonably ambivalent on the removal of mask wearing on public transport though I think a permanent shift to encouraging it would be a good thing as it would bring benefits well past COVID.

breezy1985 · 05-07-2021 3:10pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't think it "needs" to change right now and I probably wouldn't do so myself but at some point yes it does need to change. However, I also think it will probably have minimal impact given no one is going to be wearing masks in homes or pubs/bars where I suspect most of the transmission will happen as it involves people in close proximity for extended periods with usually insufficient ventilation.

I think removing the need to isolate for vaccinated people, removing the quarantine for travellers, removing the tracking of people in indoor locations are probably all things that should happen either now or soon. I am reasonably ambivalent on the removal of mask wearing on public transport though I think a permanent shift to encouraging it would be a good thing as it would bring benefits well past COVID.

Ok yes of course it "at some point" needs to change but for someone who probably wouldn't change the law yourself you seem to be very keen to defend the change so I'm a bit confused by your point

Podge_irl · 05-07-2021 3:14pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ok yes of course it "at some point" needs to change but for someone who probably wouldn't change the law yourself you seem to be very keen to defend the change so I'm a bit confused by your point

Because I think it will have minimal impact and both pushing for it and strongly arguing against it are largely performative political positions. I strongly suspect that for a large cohort of people who suggest delaying a few months, they will then decide seasonal winter illnesses are reason enough to keep the restrictions in place.

I would rather they were stronger on continuing to encourage mask use as opposed to the utterly ridiculous "freedom day" narrative but I also dislike onerous laws unless there are strong reasons for them. There is plenty of blame to go around on this front, but no longer making something legally required and punishable should not be the same as saying it is no longer advisable. Legal restrictions are a hammer that needs to be wielded carefully.

breezy1985 · 05-07-2021 3:22pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Because I think it will have minimal impact and both pushing for it and strongly arguing against it are largely performative political positions. I strongly suspect that for a large cohort of people who suggest delaying a few months, they will then decide seasonal winter illnesses are reason enough to keep the restrictions in place.

I would rather they were stronger on continuing to encourage mask use as opposed to the utterly ridiculous "freedom day" narrative but I also dislike onerous laws unless there are strong reasons for them. There is plenty of blame to go around on this front, but no longer making something legally required and punishable should not be the same as saying it is no longer advisable. Legal restrictions are a hammer that needs to be wielded carefully.

So we are back to square one with Johnson and his "go to the pubs but don't go the pubs but go to the pubs" nonsense.
The shop worker or train conductor who follows the mask wearing advice is stuck against their will with the people who don't bother and that's wrong especially when you consider they are often young and less likely to have dose 2

Podge_irl · 05-07-2021 3:32pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

So we are back to square one with Johnson and his "go to the pubs but don't go the pubs but go to the pubs" nonsense.
The shop worker or train conductor who follows the mask wearing advice is stuck against their will with the people who don't bother and that's wrong especially when you consider they are often young and less likely to have dose 2

So are wait staff in pubs and restaurants.

The messaging around the pubs etc was different and was an effort to avoid statutorily closing them and thus being liable for compensation. It was poorly handled and an utter mess. Recommending people don't go to these locations but not providing financial support is a recipe for disaster. As things stood at the time mandating closure and providing financial assistance was absolutely the way to go. Anyway, as you may have noticed these places are now back open. Encouraging mask use without legally requiring it is actually not a remotely similar scenario as there is no conflicting messaging. I agree they are not doing it well, but I would support the concept. Being an absolute jackass is, in general, not illegal and yet I still strive not to do it.

I have no problem with individual stores etc mandating their requirements either.

breezy1985 · 05-07-2021 3:34pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

So are wait staff in pubs and restaurants.

The messaging around the pubs etc was different and was an effort to avoid statutorily closing them and thus being liable for compensation. It was poorly handled and an utter mess. Recommending people don't go to these locations but not providing financial support is a recipe for disaster. As things stood at the time mandating closure and providing financial assistance was absolutely the way to go. Anyway, as you may have noticed these places are now back open. Encouraging mask use without legally requiring it is actually not a remotely similar scenario as there is no conflicting messaging. I agree they are not doing it well, but I would support the concept. Being an absolute jackass is, in general, not illegal and yet I still strive not to do it.

I have no problem with individual stores etc mandating their requirements either.

What do you mean you support the concept. You just said you would not make that decision yourself.

Also the individual stores are mostly run by people who never step foot in them and the minimum wage staff getting Covid spat on them will have no say in the decision

Podge_irl · 05-07-2021 3:40pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

What do you mean you support the concept. You just said you would not make that decision yourself

In an ideal world I would strongly encourage but not mandate their use. I would also allow TfL or whoever else to mandate them on their own services if they so wish.

In this world I probably wouldn't have removed the requirement now just cause I don't think its worth the hassle that is already forming. It is a touchpoint for a lot of people seemingly. However, the laws were introduced under emergency legislation very much with the argument that they were required to stop the NHS from being overloaded. That does not seem to currently be a risk. At the very least the requirement should move from being based on emergency legislation to primary legislation if people are insistent on it continuing.

Also, the removing of the school bubble system seems, all in all, like probably a positive step.

partyguinness · 05-07-2021 3:48pm

Tell me how wrote: »

UK rolling 7 day average of new cases is currently at 24K, a value that has been rising since the middle of May when it was at 2K.

I am not sure if these figures are available but how does that compare with the ratio of tests carried out?

05-07-2021 4:46pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I am not sure if these figures are available but how does that compare with the ratio of tests carried out?

Use this site https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

devnull · 05-07-2021 9:02pm

Just seen this article on GB News:
https://www.gbnews.uk/gb-views/colin-brazier-masks-will-be-the-new-culture-war-frontier/110520

You have to laugh at the fact it talks about there being a new culture war about masks, because the entire purpose of that article seems to be to create exactly that. This is the exact kind of stuff which is why the UK has such a divided society.

Articles like that are just playing people off each other and dividing them more by putting people in different corners and egging people into thinking the whole thing is a war. It's laughable that they moan about culture wars, when they are the ones creating them!

It's also noticeable that they cherry pick a YouGov poll from May because it gives them a result that they like and ignore the other polls that have happened since, that have given a result that doesn't suit their agenda. Dishonesty at it's best

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1412074455141163012

The quality of political discussion is only going to get worse from here on in. It's laughable that the article finishes by saying that Brazier hopes that there is not a culture war, having spent the last few minutes taunting the other side and egging it on, with the odd bit of deception by omission and the old 'maybe masks don't work' theory.

Headshot · 05-07-2021 9:26pm

It's really crazy and reckless how the BJ is going to basically removing all pandemic rules on the 19th July

I particularly cannot get over the removing of mask rule, it's nuts

05-07-2021 9:35pm

It's acceptance that COVID cannot be defeated, so let's return to normal as quickly as possible.
Let herd immunity & high levels of vaccination finally snuff out the virus after a final wave.

Strazdas · 05-07-2021 9:38pm

Headshot wrote: »

It's really crazy and reckless how the BJ is going to basically removing all pandemic rules on the 19th July

I particularly cannot get over the removing of mask rule, it's nuts

From what I can gather, no country in Europe is throwing caution to the wind like this. Yes, there is reopening of society going, but there are lots of safeguards built in - antigen testing, mask wearing, use of vaccine certs etc.

Johnson seems to be saying 'to hell with it', throwing all of society open and not bothering with any precautions or restrictions (saying outdoor summer music festivals can go ahead, Premier League matches with full stadiums and so on).

Tell me how · 05-07-2021 9:40pm

devnull wrote: »

The quality of political discussion is only going to get worse from here on in. It's laughable that the article finishes by saying that Brazier hopes that there is not a culture war, having spent the last few minutes taunting the other side and egging it on, with the odd bit of deception by omission and the old 'maybe masks don't work' theory.

The second sentence of the article starts with 'Your face as nature intended, or...'

Written by the clean shaven Brazier.....

Headshot · 05-07-2021 9:44pm

Strazdas wrote: »

From what I can gather, no country in Europe is throwing caution to the wind like this. Yes, there is reopening of society going, but there are lots of safeguards built in - antigen testing, mask wearing, use of vaccine certs etc.

Johnson seems to be saying 'to hell with it', throwing all of society open and not bothering with any precautions or restrictions (saying outdoor summer music festivals can go ahead, Premier League matches with full stadiums and so on).

Did you see his new conference today? Looked like the medical experts were there against their will lol

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