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General British politics discussion thread

ancapailldorcha

It was suggested that a new thread for non-Brexit political matters regarding the United Kingdom might be warranted so here we are.

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Headshot

Strazdas wrote: »

From what I can gather, no country in Europe is throwing caution to the wind like this. Yes, there is reopening of society going, but there are lots of safeguards built in - antigen testing, mask wearing, use of vaccine certs etc.

Johnson seems to be saying 'to hell with it', throwing all of society open and not bothering with any precautions or restrictions (saying outdoor summer music festivals can go ahead, Premier League matches with full stadiums and so on).

Did you see his new conference today? Looked like the medical experts were there against their will lol

Tell me how

devnull wrote: »

The quality of political discussion is only going to get worse from here on in. It's laughable that the article finishes by saying that Brazier hopes that there is not a culture war, having spent the last few minutes taunting the other side and egging it on, with the odd bit of deception by omission and the old 'maybe masks don't work' theory.

The second sentence of the article starts with 'Your face as nature intended, or...'

Written by the clean shaven Brazier.....

Strazdas

Headshot wrote: »

It's really crazy and reckless how the BJ is going to basically removing all pandemic rules on the 19th July

I particularly cannot get over the removing of mask rule, it's nuts

From what I can gather, no country in Europe is throwing caution to the wind like this. Yes, there is reopening of society going, but there are lots of safeguards built in - antigen testing, mask wearing, use of vaccine certs etc.

Johnson seems to be saying 'to hell with it', throwing all of society open and not bothering with any precautions or restrictions (saying outdoor summer music festivals can go ahead, Premier League matches with full stadiums and so on).

[Deleted User]

It's acceptance that COVID cannot be defeated, so let's return to normal as quickly as possible.
Let herd immunity & high levels of vaccination finally snuff out the virus after a final wave.

Headshot

It's really crazy and reckless how the BJ is going to basically removing all pandemic rules on the 19th July

I particularly cannot get over the removing of mask rule, it's nuts

devnull

Just seen this article on GB News:
https://www.gbnews.uk/gb-views/colin-brazier-masks-will-be-the-new-culture-war-frontier/110520

You have to laugh at the fact it talks about there being a new culture war about masks, because the entire purpose of that article seems to be to create exactly that. This is the exact kind of stuff which is why the UK has such a divided society.

Articles like that are just playing people off each other and dividing them more by putting people in different corners and egging people into thinking the whole thing is a war. It's laughable that they moan about culture wars, when they are the ones creating them!

It's also noticeable that they cherry pick a YouGov poll from May because it gives them a result that they like and ignore the other polls that have happened since, that have given a result that doesn't suit their agenda. Dishonesty at it's best

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1412074455141163012

The quality of political discussion is only going to get worse from here on in. It's laughable that the article finishes by saying that Brazier hopes that there is not a culture war, having spent the last few minutes taunting the other side and egging it on, with the odd bit of deception by omission and the old 'maybe masks don't work' theory.

[Deleted User]

partyguinness wrote: »

I am not sure if these figures are available but how does that compare with the ratio of tests carried out?

Use this site https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

partyguinness

Tell me how wrote: »

UK rolling 7 day average of new cases is currently at 24K, a value that has been rising since the middle of May when it was at 2K.

I am not sure if these figures are available but how does that compare with the ratio of tests carried out?

Podge_irl

breezy1985 wrote: »

What do you mean you support the concept. You just said you would not make that decision yourself

In an ideal world I would strongly encourage but not mandate their use. I would also allow TfL or whoever else to mandate them on their own services if they so wish.

In this world I probably wouldn't have removed the requirement now just cause I don't think its worth the hassle that is already forming. It is a touchpoint for a lot of people seemingly. However, the laws were introduced under emergency legislation very much with the argument that they were required to stop the NHS from being overloaded. That does not seem to currently be a risk. At the very least the requirement should move from being based on emergency legislation to primary legislation if people are insistent on it continuing.

Also, the removing of the school bubble system seems, all in all, like probably a positive step.

breezy1985

Podge_irl wrote: »

So are wait staff in pubs and restaurants.

The messaging around the pubs etc was different and was an effort to avoid statutorily closing them and thus being liable for compensation. It was poorly handled and an utter mess. Recommending people don't go to these locations but not providing financial support is a recipe for disaster. As things stood at the time mandating closure and providing financial assistance was absolutely the way to go. Anyway, as you may have noticed these places are now back open. Encouraging mask use without legally requiring it is actually not a remotely similar scenario as there is no conflicting messaging. I agree they are not doing it well, but I would support the concept. Being an absolute jackass is, in general, not illegal and yet I still strive not to do it.

I have no problem with individual stores etc mandating their requirements either.

What do you mean you support the concept. You just said you would not make that decision yourself.

Also the individual stores are mostly run by people who never step foot in them and the minimum wage staff getting Covid spat on them will have no say in the decision

Podge_irl

breezy1985 wrote: »

So we are back to square one with Johnson and his "go to the pubs but don't go the pubs but go to the pubs" nonsense.
The shop worker or train conductor who follows the mask wearing advice is stuck against their will with the people who don't bother and that's wrong especially when you consider they are often young and less likely to have dose 2

So are wait staff in pubs and restaurants.

The messaging around the pubs etc was different and was an effort to avoid statutorily closing them and thus being liable for compensation. It was poorly handled and an utter mess. Recommending people don't go to these locations but not providing financial support is a recipe for disaster. As things stood at the time mandating closure and providing financial assistance was absolutely the way to go. Anyway, as you may have noticed these places are now back open. Encouraging mask use without legally requiring it is actually not a remotely similar scenario as there is no conflicting messaging. I agree they are not doing it well, but I would support the concept. Being an absolute jackass is, in general, not illegal and yet I still strive not to do it.

I have no problem with individual stores etc mandating their requirements either.

breezy1985

Podge_irl wrote: »

Because I think it will have minimal impact and both pushing for it and strongly arguing against it are largely performative political positions. I strongly suspect that for a large cohort of people who suggest delaying a few months, they will then decide seasonal winter illnesses are reason enough to keep the restrictions in place.

I would rather they were stronger on continuing to encourage mask use as opposed to the utterly ridiculous "freedom day" narrative but I also dislike onerous laws unless there are strong reasons for them. There is plenty of blame to go around on this front, but no longer making something legally required and punishable should not be the same as saying it is no longer advisable. Legal restrictions are a hammer that needs to be wielded carefully.

So we are back to square one with Johnson and his "go to the pubs but don't go the pubs but go to the pubs" nonsense.
The shop worker or train conductor who follows the mask wearing advice is stuck against their will with the people who don't bother and that's wrong especially when you consider they are often young and less likely to have dose 2

Podge_irl

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ok yes of course it "at some point" needs to change but for someone who probably wouldn't change the law yourself you seem to be very keen to defend the change so I'm a bit confused by your point

Because I think it will have minimal impact and both pushing for it and strongly arguing against it are largely performative political positions. I strongly suspect that for a large cohort of people who suggest delaying a few months, they will then decide seasonal winter illnesses are reason enough to keep the restrictions in place.

I would rather they were stronger on continuing to encourage mask use as opposed to the utterly ridiculous "freedom day" narrative but I also dislike onerous laws unless there are strong reasons for them. There is plenty of blame to go around on this front, but no longer making something legally required and punishable should not be the same as saying it is no longer advisable. Legal restrictions are a hammer that needs to be wielded carefully.

breezy1985

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't think it "needs" to change right now and I probably wouldn't do so myself but at some point yes it does need to change. However, I also think it will probably have minimal impact given no one is going to be wearing masks in homes or pubs/bars where I suspect most of the transmission will happen as it involves people in close proximity for extended periods with usually insufficient ventilation.

I think removing the need to isolate for vaccinated people, removing the quarantine for travellers, removing the tracking of people in indoor locations are probably all things that should happen either now or soon. I am reasonably ambivalent on the removal of mask wearing on public transport though I think a permanent shift to encouraging it would be a good thing as it would bring benefits well past COVID.

Ok yes of course it "at some point" needs to change but for someone who probably wouldn't change the law yourself you seem to be very keen to defend the change so I'm a bit confused by your point

Podge_irl

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ok so you agree with Johnson that it needs to change on a liberty and freedom agenda which trump's a keeping people safe agenda.
I think that's very wrong and goes against Johnson's own promise to follow the science and his own science adviser is against him on this.

Tories have been queueing up on BBC today and admitting that lifting restrictions will lead to more hospitalisations and long Covid cases

I don't think it "needs" to change right now and I probably wouldn't do so myself but at some point yes it does need to change. However, I also think it will probably have minimal impact given no one is going to be wearing masks in homes or pubs/bars where I suspect most of the transmission will happen as it involves people in close proximity for extended periods with usually insufficient ventilation.

I think removing the need to isolate for vaccinated people, removing the quarantine for travellers, removing the tracking of people in indoor locations are probably all things that should happen either now or soon. I am reasonably ambivalent on the removal of mask wearing on public transport though I think a permanent shift to encouraging it would be a good thing as it would bring benefits well past COVID.

Tell me how

Podge_irl wrote: »

Because there should, in general, be a pretty high barrier for legally requiring things?

"Science" is not a monolithic thing either.

UK rolling 7 day average of new cases is currently at 24K, a value that has been rising since the middle of May when it was at 2K.

breezy1985

Podge_irl wrote: »

Because there should, in general, be a pretty high barrier for legally requiring things?

"Science" is not a monolithic thing either.

Ok so you agree with Johnson that it needs to change on a liberty and freedom agenda which trump's a keeping people safe agenda.
I think that's very wrong and goes against Johnson's own promise to follow the science and his own science adviser is against him on this.

Tories have been queueing up on BBC today and admitting that lifting restrictions will lead to more hospitalisations and long Covid cases

[Deleted User]

breezy1985 wrote: »

Continuing to wear masks on transport and in shops is an obvious and sensible solution. Wearing a mask in a shop has no negative effect on the economy

Transport and shops I would agree. They are places where people have no choice in entering, but pubs, restaurants etc people have a choice. If they don't want to risk it, then don't go in.

Podge_irl

breezy1985 wrote: »

If there isnt much difference then why change it. This is a purely political and symbolic move and not following the science as Johnson promised to do

Because there should, in general, be a pretty high barrier for legally requiring things?

"Science" is not a monolithic thing either.

Tell me how

Podge_irl wrote: »

Its not a "solution" for anything. It is of somewhat (likely mild) beneficial impact.

Encouraging people to continue to wear masks seems sensible. Though considering its not enforced I just don't see much difference between encouraging and mandating.

I can't get over peoples unwillingness to do what they can. The benefits of masks themselves in terms of stopping the movements of droplets in either direction is one thing, but they also signal an awareness that the virus is still a thing and a reminder to do other things such as social distance, wash your hands, use sanitiser etc.

Here in New England, there is a very high rate of people vaccinated, indoor dining and events are ramping up and the mask mandate has been removed for over a month now but it is still advised on public transport and 'requested' in stores if people aren't vaccinated and people continue to wear them. Not everyone, but a significant portion of people and thankfully I haven't seen a single incident of people refusing to wear them (when it was mandatory) or berating others for doing so now when it isn't. They have become something that I think people will adopt of their own free will going forward either when they think they may have a cold, or are interacting with people who likely do.

Given the impact Covid head over the last 15 months, I can't understand why people wouldn't do what they can in an effort to at least not contribute to the virus continuing.

breezy1985

Podge_irl wrote: »

Its not a "solution" for anything. It is of somewhat (likely mild) beneficial impact.

Encouraging people to continue to wear masks seems sensible. Though considering its not enforced I just don't see much difference between encouraging and mandating.

If there isnt much difference then why change it. This is a purely political and symbolic move and not following the science as Johnson promised to do

Podge_irl

breezy1985 wrote: »

Continuing to wear masks on transport and in shops is an obvious and sensible solution. Wearing a mask in a shop has no negative effect on the economy

Its not a "solution" for anything. It is of somewhat (likely mild) beneficial impact.

Encouraging people to continue to wear masks seems sensible. Though considering its not enforced I just don't see much difference between encouraging and mandating.

ancapailldorcha

breezy1985 wrote: »

Continuing to wear masks on transport and in shops is an obvious and sensible solution. Wearing a mask in a shop has no negative effect on the economy

Struggling to see the argument there myself. It's on for so little time that you may as well. I'm wondering if the libertarians in the party see it as totemic and have been pressuring him as a result. If the situation here deteriorates after this, it'll look incredibly bad for the government.

Tyrone212

Strazdas wrote: »

I can understand some of the easing of restrictions by Johnson but lifting the ban on indoor mask wearing and on public transport for example seems bonkers - all the indications are that this is an effective measure.

Didn't he do the same for schools in England just as Delta was taking off? Idiotic.

breezy1985

Podge_irl wrote: »

The net result is to imply that Covid in general poses far less of a threat then it did. Which is true. Hard to see how anyone could argue otherwise.

There is always going to be a trade off when the time comes to relax restrictions. There will always be people who want it sooner and people who want it later. I don't particularly blame people for not trusting the current UK govt but I equally don't have much time for anyone proclaiming there to be an obvious and sensible solution.

Continuing to wear masks on transport and in shops is an obvious and sensible solution. Wearing a mask in a shop has no negative effect on the economy

Podge_irl

Strazdas wrote: »

Yes, I'm aware of the 'link between the virus and hospitalisation has been broken by the vaccines' claim. But the net result is to imply that the Delta variant itself now poses far less of a threat to British society. There are even now demands that GB should stop mass testing and stop publishing daily case numbers.

The net result is to imply that Covid in general poses far less of a threat then it did. Which is true. Hard to see how anyone could argue otherwise.

There is always going to be a trade off when the time comes to relax restrictions. There will always be people who want it sooner and people who want it later. I don't particularly blame people for not trusting the current UK govt but I equally don't have much time for anyone proclaiming there to be an obvious and sensible solution.

Strazdas

Aegir wrote: »

You seem to be getting confused.

The clear inference is that the vaccines are working.

Yes, I'm aware of the 'link between the virus and hospitalisation has been broken by the vaccines' claim. But the net result is to imply that the Delta variant itself now poses far less of a threat to British society. There are even now demands that GB should stop mass testing and stop publishing daily case numbers.

Podge_irl

Strazdas wrote: »

It's being hinted at. British media keeps focussing in on hospitalisations being low with the Delta variant (despite the nearly 30k new cases a day). The clear implication is that the worst of the pandemic is over and Britain can quite easily 'live with' Covid now, therefore few or no restrictions are needed from now on.

Pretty sure the suggestion is more that hospitalisation is low because vaccine rates among the most at risk are high.

Of course, the theory as to the reasoning for it isn't all the relevant. The most pertinent fact is that hospitalsation rates are indeed low.

[Deleted User]

Strazdas wrote: »

It's being hinted at. British media keeps focussing in on hospitalisations being low with the Delta variant (despite the nearly 30k new cases a day). The clear implication is that the worst of the pandemic is over and Britain can quite easily 'live with' Covid now, therefore few or no restrictions are needed from now on.

You seem to be getting confused.

The clear inference is that the vaccines are working.

Strazdas

Aegir wrote: »

where are you getting this from? No one is saying that Delta is less harmless at all.

It's being hinted at. British media keeps focussing in on hospitalisations being low with the Delta variant (despite the nearly 30k new cases a day). The clear implication is that the worst of the pandemic is over and Britain can quite easily 'live with' Covid now, therefore few or no restrictions are needed from now on.