Beef Data Genomics Programme (2015-2020)

croot · 07-10-2015 11:03am

The man in red and black wrote: »

Surely the 650kg at 12 months is a typo is it? I didn't think that would be possible but if it was then that is outrageous pumping up! :eek:

I'm nearly sure that's what he told me and my reaction was the same. I had just been telling him how happy I was with my weanling weights when he told me. Remember thinking how the hell could you push them to that weight.

Bellview · 07-10-2015 1:29pm

croot wrote: »

I'm nearly sure that's what he told me and my reaction was the same. I had just been telling him how happy I was with my weanling weights when he told me. Remember thinking how the hell could you push them to that weight.

I wouldn't consider 650 for a char at 12 months a tough weight to get to.. I have an angus bull this year at 420kgs at 9 months without pushing him.. if he keeps same daily weight gain he would be pushing 600kgs at 12 months, so if a small AA can do it a Char should easily achieve that...

if we allow 60 kgs as a birth weight for the calf the average daily gain is 1.6kg to get to 650kgs at 12 months

bogman_bass · 07-10-2015 2:53pm

ruben37 wrote: »

. If your correct, you might explain why there are 10 a day dropping out of the Beef Data and Genomics Program?

Where did that figure come from?

Anyways 10 a day considering the numbers involved is tiny. That's like 1% a month and anybody that's going to drop out will do so in the next month or 2 so I doubt anybody is panicking.

Sounds like you more worried about your breed getting called out for their poor maternal qualities. Don't worry about it there is still a market for good terminal sires

Bellview · 07-10-2015 3:05pm

bogman_bass wrote: »

Where did that figure come from?

Anyways 10 a day considering the numbers involved is tiny. That's like 1% a month and anybody that's going to drop out will do so in the next month or 2 so I doubt anybody is panicking.

Sounds like you more worried about your breed getting called out for their poor maternal qualities. Don't worry about it there is still a market for good terminal sires

will be interesting how many will pull out over the next 6 months especially after the discussion meetings. I will definitely take the cash this year, bank it but will make a decision next year, then pay it back if I pull out. While the stars are as wrong a F%ck across the herd, the herd profile hits the metrics, so I will draw the cash from the minister... My view is ICBF & Teagasc are the only guaranteed winners from the scheme as there are so many stupid complex rules inserted that won't make a blind bit of difference to beef herd

dohc turbo2 · 07-10-2015 4:37pm

Dep figures say 5% of the 30,000 have only pulled out . If u can believe that

Bullocks · 08-10-2015 8:08am

dohc turbo2 wrote: »

Dep figures say 5% of the 30,000 have only pulled out . If u can believe that

How did they pull out ? Can you notify them ? Our advisor said just don't comply with the tagging or form filling and that will be good enough but I'd reckon there must be a proper opt out method

patrickn · 08-10-2015 9:40am

Bullocks wrote: »

How did they pull out ? Can you notify them ? Our advisor said just don't comply with the tagging or form filling and that will be good enough but I'd reckon there must be a proper opt out method

You just send a note with your name, address and Herdnumber to say you wish to withdraw from the scheme to Beef Schemes Section, Dept. of Agriculture and Food , Portlaoise.

Canaryblue · 09-10-2015 12:56pm

Farrell wrote: »

What's the Goldbar calves like, he's being pushed big time, as NCBC & Eurogene have him.
Think we commercial suckler farmers will soon have to do more homework on the Bulls we use, especially if keeping the off-spring

Good quality animals, long and well fleshed with good growth rates. We'll have our first heifer by him calving next summer so that'll be interesting.

slippy wicket · 09-10-2015 8:42pm

patrickn wrote: »

You just send a note with your name, address and Herdnumber to say you wish to withdraw from the scheme to Beef Schemes Section, Dept. of Agriculture and Food , Portlaoise.

I emailed the beef schemes section on Monday evening asking this very question, still have not got any response.
Very poor form, like this nonsense scheme.

Bleating Lamb · 09-10-2015 9:05pm

slippy wicket wrote: »

I emailed the beef schemes section on Monday evening asking this very question, still have not got any response.
Very poor form, like this nonsense scheme.

Ah now....emails take 7-9 working days to reach the Dept.

tanko · 09-10-2015 10:59pm

Did anyone go to any of the suckler demonstration evenings in Drumshambo or Mohill last week. Meant to get to the one in Mohill but it didn't work out.
Anything new at them?

bogman_bass · 10-10-2015 1:58am

Started tagging today one of the tags broke when the tramp whipped her head around breaking the spike before it went through >:(

Grueller · 10-10-2015 6:30am

bogman_bass wrote: »

Started tagging today one of the tags broke when the tramp whipped her head around breaking the spike before it went through >:(

Tell the truth about those docility figures now!!!!! They are unreal flimsy alright. Far worse than the bvd tags.

Miname · 10-10-2015 7:41am

Grueller wrote: »

Tell the truth about those docility figures now!!!!! They are unreal flimsy alright. Far worse than the bvd tags.

I tagged one straight through a jumbo tag. My cows ears are too small for all the decorations. Why do they need samples from the cows that were done last year anyways?

kelslat · 10-10-2015 8:37am

Chaos here at the tagging, got a couple of tags mixed up. I rang icbf and I just said to put a note in with the tags. They sent an email to the DNA lab also.

blue5000 · 10-10-2015 1:46pm

bogman_bass wrote: »

Started tagging today one of the tags broke when the tramp whipped her head around breaking the spike before it went through >:(

Chance sending it off, if the tip scraped her ear there is probably enough in it for the sample, had one last yr and it worked ok.

bogman_bass · 10-10-2015 1:55pm

blue5000 wrote: »

Chance sending it off, if the tip scraped her ear there is probably enough in it for the sample, had one last yr and it worked ok.

Not even close

TITANIUM. · 10-10-2015 2:02pm

bogman_bass wrote: »

Started tagging today one of the tags broke when the tramp whipped her head around breaking the spike before it went through >:(

Had exactly the same here. I painstakingly got the tag kind of back together while on the tagger held her real tight and tagged her. To my amazement the tag stayed on her. Sent it off anyway. They recommend sending what you have anyway even if the tag breaks. It doesn't even have to be sent in the fluid tube if you've broken that.

Count Mondego · 11-10-2015 12:05pm

I bought a few weanlings off a lad who was farming in his 90s, some legend of a man. His son was telling me afterwards that the ould lad was putting some of the genomic tags on a few of them, and firing the samples out over the wall of the crush. He thought they were just for piercing the ear! :-)

Fantastic character.

Base price · 11-10-2015 11:57pm

Canaryblue wrote: »

See the thing is yes the charolais breed is a terminal breed but that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of suckler cows up and down the country bred ofF charolais bulls. So if the pedigree charolais breeders (I myself am one) can improve the maternal traits of their herd then it will have a knock on effect to improving the suckler herd.

Of the 17 bull calves we've had born in 2015, 16 of them qualify for the BDGP scheme. With some of them being 4 and 5 stars for replacement ACROSS THE BREEDS!

Canaryblue can you please reference your information excluding any personal details of course.
I was on the Pedigree Breeders Council with other interested parties (Dept, AI stations, ICSA, IFA etc) when the idea/format of ICBF was first instigated.
In fact the discussions, agreement and backing of each individual breed society through their councils was paramount to ICBF's existence.
At no point was it agreed that data would be compared across breeds - data would only be compared within a specific breed.
If that situation has changed then I would be obliged if you could reference same.

Dozer1 · 12-10-2015 11:59am

Some balls having to do all the tagging before housing time.
All the cattle were in last week for scanning as couldn't delay it any more waiting for the tags, then they arrived Friday so gave most of Saturday rounding them up again.

A few hairy moments but all done now, trying to get cows due to calve soon through the crush was not good.

Canaryblue · 12-10-2015 12:07pm

Base price wrote: »

Canaryblue can you please reference your information excluding any personal details of course.
I was on the Pedigree Breeders Council with other interested parties (Dept, AI stations, ICSA, IFA etc) when the idea/format of ICBF was first instigated.
In fact the discussions, agreement and backing of each individual breed society through their councils was paramount to ICBF's existence.
At no point was it agreed that data would be compared across breeds - data would only be compared within a specific breed.
If that situation has changed then I would be obliged if you could reference same.

Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong but are you saying you don't know how ICBF data for pedigree animals is presented?

Base price · 12-10-2015 1:04pm

Canaryblue wrote: »

Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong but are you saying you don't know how ICBF data for pedigree animals is presented?

Your forgiven

"Of the 17 bull calves we've had born in 2015, 16 of them qualify for the BDGP scheme. With some of them being 4 and 5 stars for replacement ACROSS THE BREEDS!"
Across the breeds is the part that I wondering about. Where did you find that information.

Canaryblue · 12-10-2015 1:12pm

Base price wrote: »

Your forgiven
"Of the 17 bull calves we've had born in 2015, 16 of them qualify for the BDGP scheme. With some of them being 4 and 5 stars for replacement ACROSS THE BREEDS!"
Across the breeds is the part that I wondering about. Where did you find that information.

Look up any bull on icbf, on the left it will show the stars within the breed and on the right it will show the stars across all beef breeds.

If you take CQA for example, he's 3 stars for replacement within the Simmental breed and 5 stars for replacement across all beef breeds.

Also there was no need to forgive me, I was right

Base price · 12-10-2015 7:54pm

Canaryblue wrote: »

Look up any bull on icbf, on the left it will show the stars within the breed and on the right it will show the stars across all beef breeds.

If you take CQA for example, he's 3 stars for replacement within the Simmental breed and 5 stars for replacement across all beef breeds.

Also there was no need to forgive me, I was right

Thanks for the info

dohc turbo2 · 13-10-2015 4:34am

I was at the scheme meeting last night , majority was fairly positive there it seemed , once lads got there questions answered they seemed pretty happy with it , few extra bob anyway

ruben37 · 16-10-2015 12:23am

bogman_bass wrote: »

Where did that figure come from?

Anyways 10 a day considering the numbers involved is tiny. That's like 1% a month and anybody that's going to drop out will do so in the next month or 2 so I doubt anybody is panicking.

Sounds like you more worried about your breed getting called out for their poor maternal qualities. Don't worry about it there is still a market for good terminal sires

Farming independent I cant post links yet but it's still one of the most read articles on the site. I am sure it wont be to hard to find! As for your other comments I feel your aggrieved at not being able to produce the same quality of animal with out a dirty big dairy cow or the likes in your yard and hungry for pitiful mugs money that the vast majority will pay back, it is clearly a farce of a scheme for many quality breeders.

Limestone Cowboy · 16-10-2015 12:34am

Count Mondego wrote: »

I bought a few weanlings off a lad who was farming in his 90s, some legend of a man. His son was telling me afterwards that the ould lad was putting some of the genomic tags on a few of them, and firing the samples out over the wall of the crush. He thought they were just for piercing the ear! :-)

Fantastic character.

Girlfriend is working wit a farm planner and an auld fella landed into the office a few weeks back looking to get samples done, fine says she where do you want them done? The ones in the cows ears says your man not having a clue what any of it was about and he had never applied for the scheme. Probably for the best!

Bellview · 16-10-2015 10:24am

ruben37 wrote: »

Farming independent I cant post links yet but it's still one of the most read articles on the site. I am sure it wont be to hard to find! As for your other comments I feel your aggrieved at not being able to produce the same quality of animal with out a dirty big dairy cow or the likes in your yard and hungry for pitiful mugs money that the vast majority will pay back, it is clearly a farce of a scheme for many quality breeders.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/is-it-worth-breeding-your-own-replacements-if-youve-less-than-20-cows/

the Teagasc boy has answered an interesting question. His view is if a man has fewer than 20 cows then he should buy in replacements ... the most probable source of these heifers are from the dairy herd (as the larger beef guys will need to keep the 4 & 5 stars). There are 55,000 beef farmers out of 73,000 in this category. If the answer is we need to buy heifers from Dairy why bother with an improvement scheme... even Teagasc are calling the scheme a joke without realising it

the more interesting number of guys not taking part will be next spring as a number of advisors are stating if you don't send back the tags you will get excluded from scheme and this is the path that a number of folks are taking

dohc turbo2 · 16-10-2015 11:16am

The bit I find bad about it , the scheme is to try and improve the suckler herd in Ireland yet if u have a non pedigree bull in ur herd as long as he is a 4-5 star in 2018 he is good enough for the scheme

TITANIUM. · 16-10-2015 2:16pm

dohc turbo2 wrote: »

The bit I find bad about it , the scheme is to try and improve the suckler herd in Ireland yet if u have a non pedigree bull in ur herd as long as he is a 4-5 star in 2018 he is good enough for the scheme

Sure if he's 4r5 star at that stage he should be included. A bull doesn't need to be a pedigree to consistently bring good stock. A buddy of mine runs a Ch-Si X bull. He's a Repair out of a cracking simental cow. And he consistently breeds great square cattle and great heifers in fairness to him. I know crossed stock bulls can be abit hit and miss a sometimes inconsistent but sure allot of AI bulls have the same problem.

ALANC81 · 16-10-2015 2:33pm

We stopped using scrub bulls years ago and for good reason we're hardly going to go back in time and use them again.

TITANIUM. · 16-10-2015 3:04pm

ALANC81 wrote: »

We stopped using scrub bulls years ago and for good reason we're hardly going to go back in time and use them again.

I'm 100% AI myself. What your talking about and what I'm talking about are two very different animals. This is no ordinary sinn feiner bull. He's a AI ch out of a pedigree si cow. His calving is predicable and the progeny are solid. It's not a practice I go in for myself but I can't argue with his results. I'm sure there are even a few guys on here that do the same themselves.

ALANC81 · 16-10-2015 3:42pm

Granted the bull may produce good cattle but in reality if people start using cross breed bulls again it wouldn't be long before the bulls being used had multiple breeds in them and breeding very inconsistently. That's the reason we stopped using them. Cattle in Ireland have come a long way in the last 20 years it wouldn't take very long to set them back 20 years.
You could say I'm biased we breed PBR cattle but what I'm saying is true.

Kovu · 16-10-2015 3:49pm

I have to say I agree with Alan above.
There is no way that crossbred bulls can be consistent. A percentage will be but not the majority.
I've seen both sides, a ten month blue/lm bull here managed to roide two heifers. They calved at 20 &22 mnths, both calves came red and worked out better ppk than others. But if they had taken after the blue, who knows. Could have been two sections.
Other was a section to a scrub at 22months. A ch lm cross. The issue I have is the usual inconsistent calves.

TITANIUM. · 16-10-2015 4:11pm

ALANC81 wrote: »

Granted the bull may produce good cattle but in reality if people start using cross breed bulls again it wouldn't be long before the bulls being used had multiple breeds in them and breeding very inconsistently. That's the reason we stopped using them. Cattle in Ireland have come a long way in the last 20 years it wouldn't take very long to set them back 20 years.
You could say I'm biased we breed PBR cattle but what I'm saying is true.

I hear what you're saying Alan but your arguing against a point that I'm not making. This isn't a multi breed bull with abit of everything in him. He's a bi-breed bull with 100% pedigree on both sides.he bred this bull for this purpose. I'm not saying that this is the future r that it's even a viable option. All I'm saying is that this type bull that is doing the business should not be marked down in the stars or excluded from the scheme on the grounds of him not being a pedigree bull.

Incidentally what breed of pd cattle do you breed? I'm guessing Ch?

ALANC81 · 16-10-2015 5:15pm

No I understand what your saying but it's a fine line between a purpose bread half breed bull and anything with stars will do. I don't think everyone would go that route but if enough did it could be drastic for suckler farming.
We breed Limousin's.

patsy_mccabe · 16-10-2015 6:55pm

I see in todays journal that if an animal is Genotyped it's reliability would increase to 40% for a typical 20% reliability value.

blue5000 · 16-10-2015 7:21pm

Slightly off topic, but has anyone visited this place yet ?

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/teagasc-says-its-new-100-cow-suckler-farm-in-the-west-will-be-a-one-man-operation/

case5130 · 16-10-2015 9:31pm

Is there any where to put in a cows tag to see what rating she has

The man in red and black · 17-10-2015 2:50pm

case5130 wrote: »

Is there any where to put in a cows tag to see what rating she has

Go into ICBF. Click reports tab, hit EuroStar, if you are in BDGP there will be a file to click on when you click BDGP Euro-Star Report.

case5130 · 17-10-2015 4:23pm

The man in red and black wrote: »

Go into ICBF. Click reports tab, hit EuroStar, if you are in BDGP there will be a file to click on when you click BDGP Euro-Star Report.

These would be cows in after buying so they don't show up on my report ya see

Farrell · 17-10-2015 4:58pm

case5130 wrote: »

These would be cows in after buying so they don't show up on my report ya see

If you're after buying & a member of ICBF they'll show up in your profile, might not be instantly but after a few days

farawaygrass · 17-10-2015 6:26pm

If you bought a bull earlier this year, a four star but low reliability, will he do for the scheme or when he's genotyped could that change his stars?

dohc turbo2 · 17-10-2015 7:29pm

farawaygrass wrote: »

If you bought a bull earlier this year, a four star but low reliability, will he do for the scheme or when he's genotyped could that change his stars?

He will , but from what I learned the last night was that after genotyping he could go up 20-30 euro or go down same and if he is border line 4 star ( 75 ) euro I think he could drop a star

farawaygrass · 17-10-2015 9:59pm

dohc turbo2 wrote: »

He will , but from what I learned the last night was that after genotyping he could go up 20-30 euro or go down same and if he is border line 4 star ( 75 ) euro I think he could drop a star

That puts my mind at ease so, he's 110e terminal but only 52e replacement (72e progeny traits, whatever that is) but he's still a 4 star replacement across breeds!
Was it worth attending the meeting?

fanmanad · 17-10-2015 10:18pm

Hi all,
First time poster here. Paid a visit to the Teagasc Newford Herd in Athenry a few weeks ago that Blue 5000 referred to a few posts back. (cant seem to quote the post) We were part of a discussion group and was fairly impressed by what we were shown. Seen cows with calves at foot and all of last years stock which are being kept for finishing. Cows were small framed with an average weight of something over 500kg but were able to wean calves of over 300kg with no creep feeding. Was worth the visit to see an alternative to your usual suckler herd.

Bullocks · 17-10-2015 10:31pm

fanmanad wrote: »

Hi all,
First time poster here. Paid a visit to the Teagasc Newford Herd in Athenry a few weeks ago that Blue 5000 referred to a few posts back. (cant seem to quote the post) We were part of a discussion group and was fairly impressed by what we were shown. Seen cows with calves at foot and all of last years stock which are being kept for finishing. Cows were small framed with an average weight of something over 500kg but were able to wean calves of over 300kg with no creep feeding. Was worth the visit to see an alternative to your usual suckler herd.

It would be interesting to see alright, I wonder when they do open days or are there online reports for it

fanmanad · 17-10-2015 10:36pm

Not sure about open days but they said that a website was to be set up under newford suckler herd and weekly updates were to be posted on it

dohc turbo2 · 18-10-2015 12:02am

farawaygrass wrote: »

That puts my mind at ease so, he's 110e terminal but only 52e replacement (72e progeny traits, whatever that is) but he's still a 4 star replacement across breeds!
Was it worth attending the meeting?

It was tbh , went into detail about stars and stuff, money side of it , and how it works

Beef Data Genomics Programme (2015-2020)

Comments