Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

tom1ie · 05-03-2021 11:53am

Do we know when the next stage of metro development happens? Ie is the next stage a railway order or what’s happening?

MJohnston · 05-03-2021 1:03pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Do we know when the next stage of metro development happens? Ie is the next stage a railway order or what’s happening?

From the December 2020 update on Metrolink.ie:

TII continues to develop the MetroLink scheme in preparation for the Railway Order application which it anticipates will be made in June 2021.

...

An update in relation to the expected selection of a provider of client services to TII is now expected to follow in January 2021, including the anticipated timing for the PIN and OJEU notice.

...

The preliminary market consultation on the main contract packages including in relation to the PPP option has now been re-scheduled for Q1 2021.

Dunno whether the client services provider update happened, can't be bothered scrolling back in the thread!

tom1ie · 05-03-2021 2:50pm

MJohnston wrote: »

From the December 2020 update on Metrolink.ie:

Dunno whether the client services provider update happened, can't be bothered scrolling back in the thread!

Maybe going off track here (pardon the pun) but why do TII need client services? Surely they are the client so they just employ the PSDP and PSCS?

Pete_Cavan · 05-03-2021 3:15pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Maybe going off track here (pardon the pun) but why do TII need client services? Surely they are the client so they just employ the PSDP and PSCS?

Presumably there are multiple client services to be provided, as listed here; https://www.metrolink.ie/#/news

PSDP and PSCS aren't listed there but are almost always done by the lead designer and contractor respectively. They should have a PSDP already but no PSCS until a construction contract is awarded. Seeing as there will be multiple construction contracts, there would be a PSCS for each one.

ted1 · 05-03-2021 6:13pm

So what’s the current status of this project ?
When can we expect them to break ground?

tom1ie · 05-03-2021 8:07pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Presumably there are multiple client services to be provided, as listed here; https://www.metrolink.ie/#/news

PSDP and PSCS aren't listed there but are almost always done by the lead designer and contractor respectively. They should have a PSDP already but no PSCS until a construction contract is awarded. Seeing as there will be multiple construction contracts, there would be a PSCS for each one.

Agreed but these are all appointed by the client. Why does the client (TII) need someone to act as client?
Why can’t TII fulfill that role?

Not that it matters too much but I’m just interested.

Pete_Cavan · 05-03-2021 10:04pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Agreed but these are all appointed by the client. Why does the client (TII) need someone to act as client?
Why can’t TII fulfill that role?

Not that it matters too much but I’m just interested.

Without knowing exactly what the client services are it is hard to comment. Metrolink will involve three large civil works contracts, a Linewide Systems contract and a PPP for everything related to rolling stock plus then dealing with all the various stakeholders and the general public. There will be a lot of administration involved and TII have a limited enough staff who will also be spread across other projects (roads network, Luas extensions, some cycle route projects, etc.).

jumpinsheep · 05-03-2021 11:51pm

In the news section, related to December 2020 update, there is mentioned
" Preparation of the Preliminary Business Case is also well advanced in accordance with the summary timetable issued with the October update. "

Can't find any detail anywhere about such timetable and neither about that October update in their website.
I've already asked in a previous post, but has anyone any info about the above?

strassenwo!f · 06-03-2021 10:27am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: Dart Underground is off topic for this thread. There are other threads to discuss it in.

Mod : Do not discuss Mod instructions on thread. Use the PM instead.

Any further discussion will result in sanctions. There are plenty of other threads to discuss Dart Underground.

CatInABox · 21-03-2021 1:58pm

The updated business case was submitted to the department of transport recently, according to the Sunday Business Post.

Paywalled, but it's here.

marno21 · 21-03-2021 2:53pm

From the above article:

* Business case submitted to DTTAS; to go to Cabinet for approval before year end.
* ABP submission after this which could take a year

“This is mainly due to our desire to develop the preliminary design to a greater level of detail, to enable a detailed cost forecast for the scheme to be established, in accordance with best international practice,” the spokesman said.

“This had the knock-on effect of delaying the preliminary business case approval process.”

The spokesman declined to give an estimated completion date for the metro line and said an estimate of how much it would cost would be published once the preliminary business case is approved by the government.

In a recent submission to the mid-term review of the National Development Plan, Ibec, the business representative group, called for the delivery of Metrolink to be accelerated.

cgcsb · 21-03-2021 3:11pm

So almost a whole year for bc approval then another year for planning approval then tendering. That's optimistically a late 2023 construction start

Pete_Cavan · 21-03-2021 3:33pm

cgcsb wrote: »

So almost a whole year for bc approval then another year for planning approval then tendering. That's optimistically a late 2023 construction start

I assume they can submit the RO to ABP before the BC goes to Cabinet? Maybe they just need Department approval to submit the RO?

yascaoimhin · 21-03-2021 4:26pm

marno21 wrote: »

From the above article:

* Business case submitted to DTTAS; to go to Cabinet for approval before year end.
* ABP submission after this which could take a year

That's more than likely an error. Metrolink will be submitted to ABP in June/July, they told Dublin Commutter Coalition that via DM not a week ago.

yascaoimhin · 21-03-2021 4:27pm

cgcsb wrote: »

So almost a whole year for bc approval then another year for planning approval then tendering. That's optimistically a late 2023 construction start

Metrolink have already said they intended to begin the tendering process before the scheme is fully approved by ABP

roadmaster · 21-03-2021 4:40pm

Is it not a bit late in the day for a business case considering all the work that has being done? What would happen at this stage if the business case was rejected?

Pete_Cavan · 21-03-2021 5:05pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Is it not a bit late in the day for a business case considering all the work that has being done? What would happen at this stage if the business case was rejected?

The Business Case is an ongoing process and it gets reviewed and updated at various stages of the project. There are "gates" where it needs to get approval to progress to the next stage.

Peregrine · 21-03-2021 5:42pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Is it not a bit late in the day for a business case considering all the work that has being done? What would happen at this stage if the business case was rejected?

It's still early. This is only the preliminary business case. The final business case has to approved by the government after procurement and before construction when the tendered costs are known.

Shedite27 · 21-03-2021 6:08pm

Yeah first step was to agree the route, then doing surveys to ensure the route was possible.

Now that we know the route, they've to prove that there are enough people going to use the route on a daily basis and that capacity can meet demand etc, to make it worthwhile. In theory it should hopefully be a formality.

They couldn't do a business case until they knew where the stops would be to show how many people live within catchment of each stop

cgcsb · 21-03-2021 8:46pm

yascaoimhin wrote: »

Metrolink have already said they intended to begin the tendering process before the scheme is fully approved by ABP

ABP have the power to impose conditions that can make a significant impact on the tender cost. Tendering before these are known on one of the state's largest ever (perhaps the largest ever) single project is probably not a great idea. This will open the door to additional claims and you could end up with another children's hospital farce.

BAM are still issuing claims on that.

yascaoimhin · 22-03-2021 1:01pm

cgcsb wrote: »

ABP have the power to impose conditions that can make a significant impact on the tender cost. Tendering before these are known on one of the state's largest ever (perhaps the largest ever) single project is probably not a great idea. This will open the door to additional claims and you could end up with another children's hospital farce.

BAM are still issuing claims on that.

Metrolink have also started that the reason they took so long on detailed design was to make sure that the cost of construction can be certain.
The Tender will be to build the finished design.

cgcsb · 22-03-2021 1:34pm

yascaoimhin wrote: »

Metrolink have also started that the reason they took so long on detailed design was to make sure that the cost of construction can be certain.
The Tender will be to build the finished design.

We live in hope.

22-03-2021 6:41pm

cgcsb wrote: »

We live in hope.

I for one am certainly holding my breath.

jumpinsheep · 23-03-2021 7:53pm

cgcsb wrote:

We live in hope.

While it is for the greater good, go green, [add your reasons], etc., imagine those living in the ca. 100, between houses and apartments, under CPO threat, with the ongoing house crisis, covid19 related difficulties, etc.

3 years already gone and who knows how many more before shovel in the ground, between government and potentially ABP reviews, giving for granted the budget is (still?) there.

Time will tell, hopefully soon enough

Podge_irl · 23-03-2021 11:57pm

jumpinsheep wrote: »

While it is for the greater good, go green, [add your reasons], etc., imagine those living in the ca. 100, between houses and apartments, under CPO threat, with the ongoing house crisis, covid19 related difficulties, etc.

3 years already gone and who knows how many more before shovel in the ground, between government and potentially ABP reviews, giving for granted the budget is (still?) there.

Time will tell, hopefully soon enough

The owners of the apartments will not be out of pocket and the residents received an offer that was far above what they were entitled to given a 4 years notice (i.e. entitled to nothing and were offered far above that). They had a decent chance of being evicted for non-Metrolink reasons and getting nothing...

cgcsb · 24-03-2021 2:06pm

jumpinsheep wrote: »

While it is for the greater good, go green, [add your reasons], etc., imagine those living in the ca. 100, between houses and apartments, under CPO threat, with the ongoing house crisis, covid19 related difficulties, etc.

3 years already gone and who knows how many more before shovel in the ground, between government and potentially ABP reviews, giving for granted the budget is (still?) there.

Time will tell, hopefully soon enough

These people have effectively won one of the secondary prizes on the lottery.

jumpinsheep · 24-03-2021 5:29pm

Podge_irl wrote:

The owners of the apartments will not be out of pocket and the residents received an offer that was far above what they were entitled to given a 4 years notice (i.e. entitled to nothing and were offered far above that). [...]

I guess you're referring to tenants with "residents" - what was offered to them and when? Any reference?
Any tenant availed of whatever was on offer?

Podge_irl wrote:

[...] They had a decent chance of being evicted for non-Metrolink reasons and getting nothing...

Any example of those non-Metrolink eviction reasons?
Can only think of tenants not paying rent and being evicted by the property owner as a consequence; not sure if that's what you're suggesting as one of the non-Metrolink reasons?

CatInABox · 24-03-2021 6:19pm

jumpinsheep wrote: »

I guess you're referring to tenants with "residents" - what was offered to them and when? Any reference?
Any tenant availed of whatever was on offer?

Nothing has happened on CPOs, other than the NTA/TII publishing the CPO guideline document for the Metrolink project.

The CPO process will begin around the time the Railway order is approved. Most likely, the NTA/TII will go with a carrot and stick approach: They'll make an offer that's substantially above fair market value, and if the owner chooses to reject the offer and go to court, then they'll only get fair market value.

Outside of that, they'll get a fair bit of the process compensated too, such as legal fees, removal fees, stamp duty, etc.

The CPO process is pretty mature, and outside of the farmer in Leixlip and his epic battle with Intel/IDA, there's very little complaints about it. Even in the Intel/IDA case, the problem was that the IDA were only CPOing his land on mere possibility of Intel expanding in the future, and the courts correctly told them to get lost. Once Intel announced plans to expand, and the IDA could prove it was in the national interest, then the CPO went through, and the farmer lost his case. It'll be extremely simple to prove that Metrolink is worth the CPO of a few houses/apartments.

LXFlyer · 24-03-2021 6:32pm

cgcsb wrote: »

These people have effectively won one of the secondary prizes on the lottery.

To be fair, while the CPO process is essential, and the people concerned will rightly be very well compensated, I don't think that anyone who does end up having to move home through no choice of their own having happily lived somewhere, would view it in quite such a positive light!

Moving home is one of the traumatic experiences in life I think, especially trying to find a suitable new location.

yascaoimhin · 24-03-2021 6:34pm

jumpinsheep wrote: »

imagine those living in the ca. 100, between houses and apartments, under CPO threat, with the ongoing house crisis, covid19 related difficulties, etc.

The campaign to save this apartment block has largely gone silent.
Save for retweeting the ramblings of Cormac Rabbitt from "Metro Dublin" they haven't said anything about fighting the CPO since May last year.

CatInABox · 24-03-2021 6:59pm

yascaoimhin wrote: »

The campaign to save this apartment block has largely gone silent.
Save for retweeting the ramblings of Cormac Rabbitt from "Metro Dublin" they haven't said anything about fighting the CPO since May last year.

At a guess, I'd say a few things are happening here.

They're holding off until the project is back in the news, as there's definitely going to be stories on the cost once the final amount is known.
Their earlier protests fell on relatively deaf ears, as the vast majority of people think that the CPO is regrettable but necessary.
The number of people actually protesting is relatively small, as some owners are ok with the CPO, including the majority of landlords owning the apartments.

All guesses on my part, but I'd put money on them being mostly right. Expect to hear from these guys once you start seeing articles about the cost. I think the fact that DCC is fully on board with the CPO, pending a replacement being found for the Markievicz centre being found, really took the wind out of any protests sails.

jd · 16-04-2021 1:48pm

Letters are now being sent to some home owners prior to application to ABP

cgcsb · 16-04-2021 4:48pm

Sounds positive. Hopefully a railway order will be submitted to ABP by June.

Bsharp · 16-04-2021 6:41pm

Think September/October is a best case. The amount of documentation to pull together, and then finalise the final version, is ridiculous.

Kevtherev1 · 16-04-2021 7:10pm

Above letter confirmation of what has been said before. Construction now to start in 2023, with six years maybe complete and open December 2029 two years late. God knows when or if metro extends to sandyford. Good letter thanks for posting.

marno21 · 18-04-2021 3:15am

MetroLink FAQ April 2021

https://www.metrolink.ie/assets/downloads/MetroLink_FAQ.pdf

ncounties · 18-04-2021 9:13am

marno21 wrote: »

MetroLink FAQ April 2021

https://www.metrolink.ie/assets/downloads/MetroLink_FAQ.pdf

"5. What are the current timelines for the project?
Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) will apply for a Railway Order for the project in late summer
2021."

spacetweek · 18-04-2021 9:41am

That’s a slippage. RO was meant to be end Q2 this year.

CatInABox · 18-04-2021 8:09pm

spacetweek wrote: »

That’s a slippage. RO was meant to be end Q2 this year.

Not too surprising, the Updated Business Case was delayed as well.

I hadn't had a laugh in a while, so I decided to check in with my favourite residents association, GADRA. While there's much to dislike about them, I have to admit that their commitment to their website is phenomenal. TII held a presentation about the intervention tunnel in Albert Park for them, and they've kindly put the presentation, and their own minutes up on their site.

Nothing really new if you've already been following it, but it is somewhat what interesting to see the engagement. It's primarily NTA/TII going through many, many different variation of "We've looked into it, and we're not doing it because X".

See presentation and meeting notes

Uriel. · 18-04-2021 9:45pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Not too surprising, the Updated Business Case was delayed as well.

I hadn't had a laugh in a while, so I decided to check in with my favourite residents association, GADRA. While there's much to dislike about them, I have to admit that their commitment to their website is phenomenal. TII held a presentation about the intervention tunnel in Albert Park for them, and they've kindly put the presentation, and their own minutes up on their site.

Nothing really new if you've already been following it, but it is somewhat what interesting to see the engagement. It's primarily NTA/TII going through many, many different variation of "We've looked into it, and we're not doing it because X".

See presentation and meeting notes

It shows you why these type of projects take so long and cost so much. Not saying that engagements with communities is a bad thing.
Everyone was the station close to their front door but none of the other necessities of public transport infrastructure

yascaoimhin · 19-04-2021 10:27am

CatInABox wrote: »

Not too surprising, the Updated Business Case was delayed as well.

I hadn't had a laugh in a while, so I decided to check in with my favourite residents association, GADRA. While there's much to dislike about them, I have to admit that their commitment to their website is phenomenal. TII held a presentation about the intervention tunnel in Albert Park for them, and they've kindly put the presentation, and their own minutes up on their site.

Nothing really new if you've already been following it, but it is somewhat what interesting to see the engagement. It's primarily NTA/TII going through many, many different variation of "We've looked into it, and we're not doing it because X".

See presentation and meeting notes

God the amount of times, they say "A Station would be larger and take more park land" only to have a councillor repeat, "This should be a station and shouldn't take so much park space"

Fugazifan · 19-04-2021 9:51pm

yascaoimhin wrote: »

The campaign to save this apartment block has largely gone silent.
Save for retweeting the ramblings of Cormac Rabbitt from "Metro Dublin" they haven't said anything about fighting the CPO since May last year.

Some news on the proposed Tara Street St route alignment:

https://www.oic.ie/decisions/mr-x-and-transport-infras-2/index.xml

https://twitter.com/savemarkievicz/status/1384151378033987585?s=20

More detailed information was requested under FOI on alternative routes that they found unfeasible . TII maintained that by releasing the information it would put undue influence on the decision makers as the decision making process was still ongoing. (Compare this to how they were influenced to change the route in the beginning of the process. I thought the idea was to allow people to shape the process).
The OIC felt that the burden was on TII to demonstrate how releasing the information would be against the public interest.she said they failed to do so and ruled in the applicants favour. They must release the information or appeal to the High Court within 4 weeks

Fugazifan · 19-04-2021 10:09pm

Shedite27 wrote: »

Yeah first step was to agree the route, then doing surveys to ensure the route was possible.

Now that we know the route, they've to prove that there are enough people going to use the route on a daily basis and that capacity can meet demand etc, to make it worthwhile. In theory it should hopefully be a formality.

They couldn't do a business case until they knew where the stops would be to show how many people live within catchment of each stop

According to the findings of the OIC, the route hasn't been decided?

https://www.oic.ie/decisions/mr-x-and-transport-infras-2/index.xml

"TII says that no final decision on the Metrolink route has been made and deliberations remain ongoing, including in relation to the proposed station at Tara Street."

Elessar · 19-04-2021 10:25pm

CatInABox wrote: »

At a guess, I'd say a few things are happening here.
They're holding off until the project is back in the news, as there's definitely going to be stories on the cost once the final amount is known.

Their earlier protests fell on relatively deaf ears, as the vast majority of people think that the CPO is regrettable but necessary.

The number of people actually protesting is relatively small, as some owners are ok with the CPO, including the majority of landlords owning the apartments.

All guesses on my part, but I'd put money on them being mostly right. Expect to hear from these guys once you start seeing articles about the cost. I think the fact that DCC is fully on board with the CPO, pending a replacement being found for the Markievicz centre being found, really took the wind out of any protests sails.

I dunno tbh. The Irish love a sob story. I reckon once the threat of CPOs raise their heads again you'll see parish politics at its finest as TDs and other representatives get behind their constituents and decry the big bad metro for threatening to evict 'vulnerable' people from their homes, most of whom won't get anywhere close to them again for any sort of price (I'm talking the apartments here).

I think there will be enormous pressure to reroute metro to avoid this at all costs and the government will have to bend. This is Ireland remember, the only country in the world where the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many.

I'll eat my hat if the above doesn't happen.

Fugazifan · 19-04-2021 10:26pm

https://www.oic.ie/decisions/mr-x-and-transport-infras-2/index.xml

Check this out from the OICs findings, I was going to ask what are Metrolink hiding, but it seems they don't have anything, 2 powerpoint presentations and a report with less information than the published document Appendix M.

"Essentially, TII’s position is that the public interest in granting the request is adequately served by the public availability of Appendix M and that releasing the records at this point in time i.e. before the final decisions are made on the route and design of the project, would be contrary to the public interest."

"TII says that the records represent the collective technical and professional opinions of the project team at a point in time."

"the Investigator noted that the Jacobs IDOM report is largely similar to and in some aspects less detailed than the information published as Appendix M. The Investigator noted that Appendix M also reflects the other two records. She asked TII to identify the differences between Appendix M and the records at issue and to describe the impact of the disclosure of those differences on the deliberative processes that remain in relation to the Metrolink and/or Tara Street Station. TII’s submissions did not address these matters."

donvito99 · 19-04-2021 10:52pm

Fugazifan wrote: »

I thought the idea was to allow people to shape the process).

This works both ways. Interchange at Tara allows an even larger section of the public to benefit from Metrolink.

Fugazifan · 20-04-2021 3:10am

donvito99 wrote: »

This works both ways. Interchange at Tara allows an even larger section of the public to benefit from Metrolink.

I don't think anyone is against an interchange at Tara St? I'm not.
The point I'm trying to raise is the selection of the particular route chosen, while vacant sites were dismissed on technical grounds, now it is apparent that there is very little evidence of any due diligence on the part of TII.

Fugazifan · 20-04-2021 3:17am

donvito99 wrote: »

This works both ways. Interchange at Tara allows an even larger section of the public to benefit from Metrolink.

I'm really not sure what your point is, are you saying that citizens should not be allowed to have an input into the process of selecting the route? It's fair to ask the question why not find an alternative to knocking down the only public swimming pool and leisure centre provided by the city council in the city centre as well as an apartment block and other houses? That will certainly not benefit the people who it affects.

Pete_Cavan · 20-04-2021 6:33am

Fugazifan wrote: »

I don't think anyone is against an interchange at Tara St? I'm not.
The point I'm trying to raise is the selection of the particular route chosen, while vacant sites were dismissed on technical grounds, now it is apparent that there is very little evidence of any due diligence on the part of TII.

That's not what was said at all. The decision seems to be that TII have to produce a report on yhe report ghat they didn't publish, even though the report which wasn't published is less detailed than the report which was published.

There doesn't seem to be any flaws or incorrect information identified or any lack of due diligence. Just seems like a lot of people making work (money) for themselves and/or trying to justify the existence of their job. These projects are mana from heaven for jobsworths.

Fugazifan · 20-04-2021 12:10pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

That's not what was said at all. The decision seems to be that TII have to produce a report on yhe report ghat they didn't publish, even though the report which wasn't published is less detailed than the report which was published.

There doesn't seem to be any flaws or incorrect information identified or any lack of due diligence. Just seems like a lot of people making work (money) for themselves and/or trying to justify the existence of their job. These projects are mana from heaven for jobsworths.

The decision is that TII release the information as it was , they don't write a report!
The 3 documents which justify the reasons they said they could not find an alternative route are two Powerpoint presentations and a Jacobs IDOM report, all which she noted had same or less information than published Appendix M.
Appendix M was scant and so lacking in detail which prompted the FOI request in the first place. TII are hiding behind an excuse that it would not be in the public interest to release them.

Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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