Labour want to bring back auto-birthright citizenship

breezy1985 · 10-11-2020 1:39pm

kildare lad wrote: »

More Nigerian taxi drivers in Dublin ?

To get citizenship they would have to be born here and so would they not be Irish taxi drivers

seamus · 10-11-2020 1:40pm

DelaneyIn wrote: »

It wasn’t unnecessary at all. In the years prior to the referendum, 58% of all asylum seeking women over the age of 16 were pregnant upon making their application for asylum.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/information%20note.pdf/Files/information%20note.pdf

And?

Your own link shows that the numbers were massively declining after the Supreme Court ruling.

In any case, there is no indication that this was a major issue in need of solving through constitutional amendment.

road_high · 10-11-2020 1:44pm

This has Aodhan O’Riordain paw prints allover it. Virtue signalling nonsense. It’s very obvious the 2004 referendum was the correct course of action. And even more so going forward facing reduced budgets budgets for public services..

kildare lad · 10-11-2020 1:44pm

seamus wrote: »

The 2004 referendum was heavily pushed by racist groups, when such a thing had less profile in Ireland. There was a lot of disinformation flying around and made up stories of boats and planes filled with pregnant Nigerians. The change was unnecessary. "Anchor" children was an overblown boogeyman, but it was the foundation of the campaign to make the change.

It didn't take long for the auld racism card being brought out. I voted in 2004 and I didn't remember any racist groups pushing any agenda. You might be surprised to know some people live in the real world and see what's really going on instead of this far left multicultural utopian bubble they're so desperately trying to achieve .

Donald Trump · 10-11-2020 1:58pm

seamus wrote: »

And?

Your own link shows that the numbers were massively declining after the Supreme Court ruling.

In any case, there is no indication that this was a major issue in need of solving through constitutional amendment.

Of course it needed constitutional amendment. A constitutional amendment put it in there in the late 90's and once they realised the unintended consequences, they needed another one to take it out. The constitutional right was only there for a few years. You can't legislate contrary to the constitution so they had to fix that to fix the situation.

25% of children being born in the state were to non-nationals. Many of whom were literally coming in off boats and straight to the maternity hospitals. Others would land pregnant and declare that they were seeking asylum, knowing full well that that process would allow them to remain for long enough to give birth.

It was a danger to all involved. The only way to remove the attraction was to remove the constitutional right to it. Removing the right did not mean that children of foreigners could not get citizenship - it just meant that they could not take the piss

breezy1985 · 10-11-2020 2:00pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Of course it needed constitutional amendment. A constitutional amendment put it in there in the late 90's and once they realised the unintended consequences, they needed another one to take it out. The constitutional right was only there for a few years. You can't legislate contrary to the constitution so they had to fix that to fix the situation.

25% of children being born in the state were to non-nationals. Many of whom were literally coming in off boats and straight to the maternity hospitals. Others would land pregnant and declare that they were seeking asylum, knowing full well that that process would allow them to remain for long enough to give birth.

It was a danger to all involved. The only way to remove the attraction was to remove the constitutional right to it. Removing the right did not mean that children of foreigners could not get citizenship - it just meant that they could not take the piss

25% of children born in Ireland were non nationals? That sounds very high where are you getting the figure from

jones · 10-11-2020 2:06pm

Absolute bonkers stuff by labour - what world are they living in. Not only would it mean automatic Irish citizenship it would also be EU citizenship just for being born on the tarmac of Dublin airport (to make an extreme example).

Will never happen and to me this just looks like virtue signalling at its finest but can you imagine it did? The country would be swamped by non EU migrants and who'd blame them.

Donald Trump · 10-11-2020 2:07pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

25% of children born in Ireland were non nationals? That sounds very high where are you getting the figure from

It was well known at the time. Hospitals were being put under severe pressure. If you know anyone who had a kid in a public hospital around that time, they would tell you about being surrounded by beds of foreign women.

It is also in the Department of Justice document someone posted earlier http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/information%20note.pdf/Files/information%20note.pdf . Paragraph 12

Wibbs · 10-11-2020 2:08pm

seamus wrote: »

And?

Your own link shows that the numbers were massively declining after the Supreme Court ruling.

So chancers were using this legislation to enter the country? So it seems we do agree. And the numbers fell off a cliff after the referendum was passed. If it were reversed the chancers would be back again. The same chancers that are almost entirely rejected by current immigration depts.

In any case, there is no indication that this was a major issue in need of solving through constitutional amendment.

The only country in Europe that had this legislation. Legislation that was on the back of a peace agreement and not intended for non EU chancers. Legislation that grew our non EU population by a considerable amount in the late 90's and early 00's. A population that even two decades on has higher than background reliance on social welfare. Then again Diversity(of the correct sort) Is Our Strength types are remarkably blinkered towards anything that goes against this credo so things are never major issues.

kildare lad · 10-11-2020 2:10pm

If my mam gives birth to me while they're on holidays in china , does that make me chinese ?

Yurt2 · 10-11-2020 2:24pm

kildare lad wrote: »

If my mam gives birth to me while they're on holidays in china , does that make me chinese ?

Aodhan O'Riordan would probably try to tell you yes with a straight face.

blackbox · 10-11-2020 2:31pm

In the USA the birthright of a child gives no additional rights to the parents.

In Ireland, when we had the birthright law, parents and guardians were also granted residency rights as the courts deemed that the child had a right to have them here. This did not revert when the child reached adulthood.

Wibbs · 10-11-2020 2:33pm

Yurt! wrote: »

Aodhan O'Riordan would probably try to tell you yes with a straight face.

If the poster is pale of face I seriously doubt it. This "diversity" is remarkably colour specific and it's only ever in one direction. None of the diversity pundits would suggest that what a majority African or Asian culture really needs to be progressive is more White migrants. More locally consider the well over one hundred thousand White non native Irish living in Ireland that almost never get any sort of mention. They're practically invisible.

Donald Trump · 10-11-2020 2:35pm

blackbox wrote: »

In the USA the birthright of a child gives no additional rights to the parents.

In Ireland, when we had the birthright law, parents and guardians were also granted residency rights as the courts deemed that the child had a right to have them here. This did not revert when the child reached adulthood.

Even if it had "reverted" it would have made little difference. The parents would have be naturalised by then. The only thing that they could have done was to give a special visa to the parents which explicitly legally stopped the clock as regards duration of stay.

However when the children reached 18, they would still be able to petition to get status for their parents anyway.

lemonTrees · 10-11-2020 2:38pm

Another example of why Ireland needs a right leaning political party. The pendulum is swinging too far to the left and must be addressed.

Yurt2 · 10-11-2020 2:47pm

lemonTrees wrote: »

Another example of why Ireland needs a right leaning political party. The pendulum is swinging too far to the left and must be addressed.

You can be sure that privately, there will be a large cross sections in every political party that would have huge reservations or be outright opposed to this (even in the Labour party). It is however extremely difficult to come out and say it as they would be hammered by a noisy minority in the press and social media.

This would be an absolute red line issue on the doorstep for me during an election and anyone who feels similar should not be shy about expressing that viewpoint to candidates looking for a vote.

FYI: I'm not even on the right of the political spectrum. I just think (know actually) that Ireland reverting to jus soli would end in absolute disaster for this country.

mohawk · 10-11-2020 2:49pm

lemonTrees wrote: »

Another example of why Ireland needs a right leaning political party. The pendulum is swinging too far to the left and must be addressed.

Do we need a right leaning party? Just because a person supports controlled immigration doesn’t mean they are right wing.

weldoninhio · 10-11-2020 2:52pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Thats what their priority is? Jaysis, read the room lads.

Apart from the 80% majority at the time, floating it for reconsideration ahead of the mammoth task of refloating the economy, wherein immigration is an issue at the best of times, is simply naive and tone deaf.

You seem to misunderstand. Labour don’t want to put it to the people. They want to usurp the will of the people by just changing it without a vote by the public.

marieholmfan · 10-11-2020 2:53pm

lemonTrees wrote: »

Another example of why Ireland needs a right leaning political party. The pendulum is swinging too far to the left and must be addressed.

Assuming that half of these 'birthright citizens' are boys they could be a full division that we may well need in the near future when we again wage war against our eternal enemy.

Why are people who claim to be on the right seeking to weaken Ireland's warfighting ability??

Are they actually ENGLAND'S HIRELINGS?

John Doe1 · 10-11-2020 2:56pm

Labour still exist??

They are right though, what this country needs is 1000's of underqualified people from incompatible cultures (Anti-woman and liberal values) who may not be able to speak the language competing with our already stretched working class in a job market which will be made even smaller by automation in the coming years.

Geniuses!

Gervais08 · 10-11-2020 3:03pm

Wibbs wrote: »

If the poster is pale of face I seriously doubt it. This "diversity" is remarkably colour specific and it's only ever in one direction. None of the diversity pundits would suggest that what a majority African or Asian culture really needs to be progressive is more White migrants. More locally consider the well over one hundred thousand White non native Irish living in Ireland that almost never get any sort of mention. They're practically invisible.

That is an excellent point Wibbs - white people going to a black county - evil nasty colonialism whilst black people coming into a white country - yay for diversity!!!

There used to be a word when I was a wee one for treating people differently due to their colour....

Gervais08 · 10-11-2020 3:06pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

Assuming that half of these 'birthright citizens' are boys they could be a full division that we may well need in the near future when we again wage war against our eternal enemy.

Why are people who claim to be on the right seeking to weaken Ireland's warfighting ability??

Are they actually ENGLAND'S HIRELINGS?

Put the top back on the marker after you’ve used it dude k???

1hnr79jr65 · 10-11-2020 3:08pm

I would be strongly against voting for birthright citizenship due to current economy and jobs market, not to mention the country being abused for social welfare payments amongst other things. Also when you consider how bad the housing situation and homelessness rates are on top of direct provision refugees, it does not make any sense for such a law to be passed.

Right now in terms of direct provision I am not aware of the numbers of births in this situation, however with how the applications are managed and length of time it takes to process, it would give applicants ample opportunity to exploit such a law to have children while waiting for application to be processed only for them to receive automatic clearance once a child is born.

We have enough issues that are not being dealt with that we can't afford to open the country up to free citizenship, we will go bust.

breezy1985 · 10-11-2020 3:12pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

It was well known at the time. Hospitals were being put under severe pressure. If you know anyone who had a kid in a public hospital around that time, they would tell you about being surrounded by beds of foreign women.

It is also in the Department of Justice document someone posted earlier http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/information%20note.pdf/Files/information%20note.pdf . Paragraph 12

I was too young to know much about it at the time I was just shocked by the 25% figure. Ide believe it in Dublin alright but surprised it says the national figure is similar which is interesting.

Varik · 10-11-2020 3:12pm

You've politicians and the always fun Immigrant Council of Ireland proposing punishments and party's restricting any member that brought up anything remotely anti immigration, it's not a topic they think should be allowed to be brought up. They don't even hide the fact that they think it'd win some votes and have support, they just don't want it allowed. The wrong kind of democracy.

Labour or any others push this then it's not fringe anymore it's front and centre.

breezy1985 · 10-11-2020 3:16pm

Gervais08 wrote: »

That is an excellent point Wibbs - white people going to a black county - evil nasty colonialism whilst black people coming into a white country - yay for diversity!!!

There used to be a word when I was a wee one for treating people differently due to their colour....

White people going to white countries can be colonialism to as us Irish should well know

breezy1985 · 10-11-2020 3:18pm

lemonTrees wrote: »

Another example of why Ireland needs a right leaning political party. The pendulum is swinging too far to the left and must be addressed.

Jeysus lad don't worry I'm left and I can tell you there is nothing left wing about this country and won't be in my lifetime

Gervais08 · 10-11-2020 3:19pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

White people going to white countries can be colonialism to as us Irish should well know

Dear God do we ever!!

But the point still stands - the cognitive dissonance is strong!

biko · 10-11-2020 3:21pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Jeysus lad don't worry I'm left and I can tell you there is nothing left wing about this country and won't be in my lifetime

There are plenty of left wing parties and even some extreme left parties.
That said there are right wing and extreme right parties but they aren't in power.

breezy1985 · 10-11-2020 3:29pm

biko wrote: »

There are plenty of left wing parties and even some extreme left parties.
That said there are right wing and extreme right parties but they aren't in power.

Who are the left and extreme left in your view?

biko · 10-11-2020 3:34pm

Moderate left parties in power
Sinn Fein
Labour
Social Democrats

More extreme left, still in power
Green Party
PBP

Are these not left in your opinion breezy1985? If not, where are they on the political compass in your opinion?

Kermit.de.frog · 10-11-2020 3:39pm

kildare lad wrote: »

If my mam gives birth to me while they're on holidays in china , does that make me chinese ?

If you're looking for the aul benefits ye wouldn't be going to China tbh

They take a dim view of that sorta thing.

breezy1985 · 10-11-2020 3:40pm

biko wrote: »

Moderate left parties in power
Sinn Fein
Labour
Social Democrats

More extreme left, still in power
Green Party
PBP

Are these not left in your opinion breezy1985? If not, where are they on the political compass in your opinion?

I agree they are all left with the exception of the Greens who are socially liberal but I wouldn't say the are left wing which is more an economic policy and I would not trust the greens to give one s*** about the working class

But I don't think you have a clue what the term in power means. Do you mean they have a TD?

Geuze · 10-11-2020 3:51pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Jeysus lad don't worry I'm left and I can tell you there is nothing left wing about this country and won't be in my lifetime

Ireland has moved left, politically.

https://muellerstefan.net/papers/mueller_regan_irelandleftright.pdf

Geuze · 10-11-2020 3:52pm

biko wrote: »

Moderate left parties in power
Sinn Fein
Labour
Social Democrats

More extreme left, still in power
Green Party
PBP

Are these not left in your opinion breezy1985? If not, where are they on the political compass in your opinion?

I would have put the GP in with SF / Lab / SocDems?

Why call them extreme left?

conorhal · 10-11-2020 3:58pm

John Doe1 wrote: »

Labour still exist??

They are right though, what this country needs is 1000's of underqualified people from incompatible cultures (Anti-woman and liberal values) who may not be able to speak the language competing with our already stretched working class in a job market which will be made even smaller by automation in the coming years.

Geniuses!

Yes, but Labour need voters!

Like the Democrats in the States and Labour in the UK, if you can't get the natives to vote for you then you might was well import voters that will!

Donald Trump · 10-11-2020 4:01pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I was too young to know much about it at the time I was just shocked by the 25% figure. Ide believe it in Dublin alright but surprised it says the national figure is similar which is interesting.

If you read that paragraph it goes on to explain that two-thirds of that figure were not then-current asylum seekers and many of those followed the pattern of arrival into the country just before birth.

But even if you think about it for a minute: one-third of that 25% were from asylum seekers. So you are still talking about around 8% of all births at that time being to mothers who had entered the system to claim asylum status.

In other words, 1-in-12 babies were being born to asylum seeking mothers. Another 2-in-12 were being born to non-nationals - many of whom were arriving in late pregnancy.

That was why the change had to be made. It was an open door and easily open to abuse and word was spreading.

biko · 10-11-2020 4:06pm

Geuze wrote: »

I would have put the GP in with SF / Lab / SocDems?

Why call them extreme left?

Perhaps we can have a separate thread on that as it's offtopic for this one?

breezy1985 · 10-11-2020 4:10pm

Geuze wrote: »

Ireland has moved left, politically.

https://muellerstefan.net/papers/mueller_regan_irelandleftright.pdf

Who is Stefan Muller ?

biko · 10-11-2020 4:11pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

But I don't think you have a clue what the term in power means. Do you mean they have a TD?

Yes, a TD means influence. Influence means power.

breezy1985 · 10-11-2020 4:12pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you read that paragraph it goes on to explain that two-thirds of that figure were not then-current asylum seekers and many of those followed the pattern of arrival into the country just before birth.

But even if you think about it for a minute: one-third of that 25% were from asylum seekers. So you are still talking about around 8% of all births at that time being to mothers who had entered the system to claim asylum status.

In other words, 1-in-12 babies were being born to asylum seeking mothers. Another 2-in-12 were being born to non-nationals - many of whom were arriving in late pregnancy.

That was why the change had to be made. It was an open door and easily open to abuse and word was spreading.

I agree with the current law I was just shocked by the 25% figure

breezy1985 · 10-11-2020 4:15pm

biko wrote: »

Yes, a TD means influence. Influence means power.

So Sinn Fein are in power in the UK and the Healy-Raes are in power in Ireland.

You would be laughed out of any sane conversation for saying that. In power means has always meant and will always mean being a member of the party running government so only the Greens on your list are in power

biko · 10-11-2020 4:48pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

So Sinn Fein are in power in the UK and the Healy-Raes are in power in Ireland.

You would be laughed out of any sane conversation for saying that. In power means has always meant and will always mean being a member of the party running government so only the Greens on your list are in power

Hmm ok, let's accept that so we don't get bogged down in semantics.

Let's trace back to your comment

I'm left and I can tell you there is nothing left wing about this country and won't be in my lifetime

Since there are plenty of left wing parties as I have shown, why do you think Ireland isn't left enough for you and what party should take it where you want it to go?
Do you think Labour is right to try for another referendum about jus soli? Do you think we should have jus soli here?

breezy1985 · 10-11-2020 4:54pm

biko wrote: »

Hmm ok, let's accept that so we don't get bogged down in semantics.

Let's trace back to your comment

Since there are plenty of left wing parties as I have shown, why do you think Ireland isn't left enough for you and what party should take it where you want it to go?

Ide be closest to Labour despite disagreeing with them on the current topic and I have no problems with the SD. PBP are not positive for me and just complain without offering anything decent or realistic in return and I don't really trust Sinn Fein not to flip flop on the left stuff when it suits and I don't see them doing too much in a left sense up north so far

I agree these are left parties but I don't think any will have any significant power any time soon and we definitely will not get an all left alliance government in my lifetime

weldoninhio · 10-11-2020 5:27pm

biko wrote: »

Hmm ok, let's accept that so we don't get bogged down in semantics.

Let's trace back to your comment

Since there are plenty of left wing parties as I have shown, why do you think Ireland isn't left enough for you and what party should take it where you want it to go?
Do you think Labour is right to try for another referendum about jus soli? Do you think we should have jus soli here?

Again, Labour do not want another referendum. They want the Dail to change the law. There was a vote on this last year. SF was another party who voted in favour of changing the law. Thankfully it was voted down.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/vote/dail/32/2019-01-24/12/

Mad_maxx · 10-11-2020 5:35pm

seamus wrote: »

The 2004 referendum was heavily pushed by racist groups, when such a thing had less profile in Ireland. There was a lot of disinformation flying around and made up stories of boats and planes filled with pregnant Nigerians. The change was unnecessary. "Anchor" children was an overblown boogeyman, but it was the foundation of the campaign to make the change.

But a change back seems like it would be equally unnecessary. I'd love to know what the specific issues are that are trying to be fixed?

I know there's a specific blind spot in regards to citizenship for people who've been here a long time in direct provision or otherwise without an official visa. Children especially. But that seems to me to be easily solved with legislation rather than a modification to the consitution.

Personally I think that's too simplistic. Citizenship or "belonging" to a country is more than where your parents are from or on what soil you were born.

I'm happy with an open enough regime that allows people to gain citizenship without reguiring archaic tests of lineage or knowlede, but that doesn't just throw it out like confetti.

For example, an automatic right for anyone to apply for citizenship if they have been in residence for ten years or more, regardless of whether that residence is legal or not. This would include a general analysis of the individual's circumstances; convictions would disqualify them, but further education and/or a solid record of employment/self-employment (legal or otherwise) would help them.

For children, granting automatic citizenship to any child over 3 that has been in continuous residence for 2 years before the age of six, 5 years before they turn ten, or 8 years before they turn 18. Any child who has been here that long, knows no other place as "home". It is cruel and spiteful to deny them the right to live here for life.

passing the referendum merely brought us into line with the rest of the EU on this issue

Wibbs · 10-11-2020 5:54pm

Geuze wrote: »

Ireland has moved left, politically.

https://muellerstefan.net/papers/mueller_regan_irelandleftright.pdf

To some degree yes, on certain matters, but as Mohawk put it earlier:

mohawk wrote: »

Do we need a right leaning party? Just because a person supports controlled immigration doesn’t mean they are right wing.

Mad_maxx · 10-11-2020 5:58pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Jeysus lad don't worry I'm left and I can tell you there is nothing left wing about this country and won't be in my lifetime

this country is overtly left leaning , it always was but it takes the cake this past decade

statesaver · 10-11-2020 5:59pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

passing the referendum merely brought us into line with the rest of the EU on this issue

It did. I wonder why Labour and others want to break from the EU on this issue now.

biko · 10-11-2020 5:59pm

Yurt! wrote: »

*The Chinese kid in Bray.

In one high-profile case, Eric Zhi Ying Xue – a nine-year-old from Bray, Co Wicklow – faced removal from the state despite having been here for his entire life.

Asked whether they were considering an amnesty for any of those affected by the citizenship referendum, the Department of Justice said that the EU had said cases would be dealt with on a case-by-case approach as opposed to any “mass regularisation”.

https://www.thejournal.ie/citizenship-rights-irish-born-children-4475530-Feb2019/

Deportation order against him was lifted last year
https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1217/1101717-deportation-order-against-wicklow-schoolboy-lifted/

Labour want to bring back auto-birthright citizenship

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