Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

I.S. 10101 - The replacement for ET101:2008

1235

Comments

  • #202
    Dred.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Dred.


    Good points

    Of course there's been high profile issues with large appliances namely fridges and tumble dryers

    An auto dry powder fire extinguisher over the appliance would prob be more benefit than an AFD in those cases

    It's a complex picture


  • #203
    Risteard81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    2011 wrote: »
    Yes, they can identify arcing by looking at the waveform.



    An installation could be wired perfectly but an appliance could go on fire due to an electrical fault. I saw this a few years ago. MCB’s and RCD’s may not operate under these conditions.

    These devices have been around for a while and have proven to work.

    I'd have to respectfully disagree that AFDDs have been proven to work. They are a highly controversial device.


  • #204
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    I'd have to respectfully disagree that AFDDs have been proven to work. They are a highly controversial device.

    Really? Any links ?


  • #205
    Dred.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Dred.


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    I'd have to respectfully disagree that AFDDs have been proven to work. They are a highly controversial device.

    Are.you saying they're not proven to be 100% effective at arc-fault interruption ?

    That wouldn't be surprising

    There's a myriad of issues with RCDs and their effectiveness.
    You could argue they are a controversial device if you use that metric.


  • #206
    Risteard81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    2011 wrote: »
    Really? Any links ?
    John Ward and David Savery have both set up a number of tests with them on YouTube. Also in the US where AFCIs have been used for a number of years there is significant debate as to whether they are effective. I'll try to find some links for you later.

    Probably the main issue at present, however, is the sheer cost of the devices.

    Personally I'm open-minded as to how effective they are. A test may not simulate real world conditions effectively. I would offer the devices and leave it to the client to decide whether they are prepared to accept the cost of them.

    Type 2 SPDs, however, are a no-brainer in my opinion. They really aren't that dear now and may give protection to sensitive equipment against switching surges etc. and I fit these as standard.


  • #207
    Dred.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Dred.


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    John Ward and David Savery have both set up a number of tests with them on YouTube. Also in the US where AFCIs have been used for a number of years there is significant debate as to whether they are effective. I'll try to find some links for you later.

    Probably the main issue at present, however, is the sheer cost of the devices.

    Personally I'm open-minded as to how effective they are. A test may not simulate real world conditions effectively. I would offer the devices and leave it to the client to decide whether they are prepared to accept the cost of them.

    Type 2 SPDs, however, are a no-brainer in my opinion. They really aren't that dear now and may give protection to sensitive equipment against switching surges etc. and I fit these as standard.

    Type 3 SPD is for sensitive equipment

    Type 2 is for sub-boards and mainboards(where no lightning protection fitted)


  • #208
    Risteard81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    Dred. wrote: »
    Type 3 SPD is for sensitive equipment

    Type 2 is for sub-boards and mainboards(where no lightning protection fitted)
    Type 3 is typically fitted local to the load (e.g. surge protected leads). Type 2 should still be fitted at DBs.

    Type 1 is for lighting protection with an LPS etc., but generally that's not something which needs to be considered as we don't really have enough lightning incidents in this country. However large commercial and industrial sites (i.e. those with LPS) should obviously allow for these.


  • #209
    Dred.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Dred.


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Type 3 is typically fitted local to the load (e.g. surge protected leads). Type 2 should still be fitted at DBs.

    Type 1 is for lighting protection with an LPS etc., but generally that's not something which needs to be considered as we don't really have enough lightning incidents in this country. However large commercial and industrial sites (i.e. those with LPS) should obviously allow for these.

    Yes, you have to do the main board then sub-boards and equipment


  • #210
    Dred.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Dred.


    So what would a rec be checking if called out to an AFDD trip

    L-N loop impedances on the fixed wiring?

    IR testing of fixed wiring

    Appliance testing?

    How many circuits can an AFDD protect?


  • Advertisement
  • #211
    Risteard81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    Dred. wrote: »
    So what would a rec be checking if called out to an AFDD trip

    L-N loop impedances on the fixed wiring?

    IR testing of fixed wiring

    Appliance testing?

    How many circuits can an AFDD protect?
    An AFDD is individual to each protected circuit.

    Some of the combined devices might be an RCBO and AFDD, so you could be looking for an overcurrent, an Earth fault or series or parallel arcing. Often there is an indicator to show the reason for the device operating.


  • #212
    Dred.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Dred.


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    An AFDD is individual to each protected circuit.

    Some of the combined devices might be an RCBO and AFDD, so you could be looking for an overcurrent, an Earth fault or series or parallel arcing. Often there is an indicator to show the reason for the device operating.

    Separates is always better, be crazy trying to troubleshoot random RCBO/AFDD combined trips

    Maybe with the indicator it's not too bad to troubleshoot but you still have the issue of waste if the RCD section goes faulty

    Not just for protective devices

    Computers , audio equipment , lots of stuff, separates makes more sense


  • #213
    dbas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    Hello all,
    I'm wondering do any followers know the rules regarding consumer unit location in a domestic residence.
    I was told it should be no more than 2m from the entrance door.
    Is that correct or a misinterpretation of the rules?
    I'm asking in relation to a 3 storey residence with door at ground floor and kitchen/ living area on second floor.

    Thanks for any assistance


  • #214
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    dbas wrote: »
    Hello all,
    I'm wondering do any followers know the rules regarding consumer unit location in a domestic residence.
    I was told it should be no more than 2m from the entrance door.
    Is that correct or a misinterpretation of the rules?
    I'm asking in relation to a 3 storey residence with door at ground floor and kitchen/ living area on second floor.

    Thanks for any assistance

    That does not make any sense to me so I would be suprised if it was correct. I will have a quick look and see what I can find.


  • #215
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    I just had a look at pages 139 to 141 which is where I would expect to find such a requirement if it existed and there is nothing that states that the DB must be within 2m of the entrance.


  • #216
    dbas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    2011 wrote: »
    I just had a look at pages 139 to 141 which is where I would expect to find such a requirement if it existed and there is nothing that states that the DB must be within 2m of the entrance.

    Thanks for the reply.

    I don't have a copy of it myself. I wonder are they confused between a stand alone house and multi residential main board in an apartment block or something.

    Thanks again


  • Advertisement
  • #217
    meercat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,757 ✭✭✭meercat


    dbas wrote: »
    Hello all,
    I'm wondering do any followers know the rules regarding consumer unit location in a domestic residence.
    I was told it should be no more than 2m from the entrance door.
    Is that correct or a misinterpretation of the rules?
    I'm asking in relation to a 3 storey residence with door at ground floor and kitchen/ living area on second floor.

    Thanks for any assistance

    Perhaps the requirements for meter box location is getting mixed up with distribution board location
    Meter box required within 2mts of front

    https://www.esbnetworks.ie/docs/default-source/publications/your-meter-cabinet.pdf?sfvrsn=6


  • #218
    dbas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    meercat wrote: »
    Perhaps the requirements for meter box location is getting mixed up with distribution board location
    Meter box required within 2mts of front

    https://www.esbnetworks.ie/docs/default-source/publications/your-meter-cabinet.pdf?sfvrsn=6

    You might have a point there. Has to be done basis for it.
    Thanks


  • #219
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    As regards isolators in kitchen for dishwashers, extractors etc can one put more than one socket one on isolator provided of course loading etc has been taken into account.


  • #220
    meercat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,757 ✭✭✭meercat


    Fils wrote: »
    As regards isolators in kitchen for dishwashers, extractors etc can one put more than one socket one on isolator provided of course loading etc has been taken into account.

    No. Separate isolation for each appliance


  • #221
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    meercat wrote: »
    No. Separate isolation for each appliance

    Ok, Ill end up tattoo wall of isolators. I normally use smart light system and we have no isolators on wall.
    Conventional setup here, may use 4 gang switch and contactors .


  • Advertisement
  • #222
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Fils wrote: »
    Ok, Ill end up tattoo wall of isolators. I normally use smart light system and we have no isolators on wall.
    Conventional setup here, may use 4 gang switch and contactors .

    Switches and contactors and local isolation are not the same thing


  • #223
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    I’m complying with regs still though am I not?


  • #224
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Fils wrote: »
    I’m complying with regs still though am I not?

    No

    You have to be able to switch off manually close to the appliance


  • #225
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    Electric showers don’t have to, is there a reg specific to kitchen appliances that do?


  • #226
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Fils wrote: »
    Electric showers don’t have to, is there a reg specific to kitchen appliances that do?

    That was something ecssa brought in years ago but it was a mistake

    A lot of contractors fitted the switch and contactor but it was a mixup at the time


  • #227
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    Reci have no issue with it.


  • #228
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    The idea with the shower isolators is that you don't use them to turn off the shower while in use

    You preferably leave them on all the time although DFB will disagree

    And you can safely switch off all the live poles locally while working on the electric shower


  • #229
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    We give a switching from lightning system to contactor for shower. No isolator down stream.


  • #230
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Fils wrote: »
    We give a switching from lightning system to contactor for shower. No isolator down stream.

    There is nothing wrong with switching large loads such as a shower with a contractor. However the shower must have a local isolator.


  • #231
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    We provide a switch at a switch location that energises contactor. This has been approved by Reci, same as some run twin brown and use pull cord switch to energise contactor at db.
    Far more practical and safer than trying to terminate 10 square in a pull cord.


  • Advertisement
  • #232
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Fils wrote: »
    We provide a switch at a switch location that energises contactor. This has been approved by Reci, same as some run twin brown and use pull cord switch to energise contactor at db.
    Far more practical and safer than trying to terminate 10 square in a pull cord.

    Whoever is approving it hasn't a clue what they're talking about

    This nonsense all started with ECSSA telling contractors to use contactors instead of isolators because they were burning out

    Obviously easier to wire through a contactor at the DB too but it misses the whole point of isolating locally


  • #233
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    I know a lot of contractors wiring 10 square direct from db via a contactor straight to shower.
    They use twin brown 1.5 send phase out in one leg and return to A1. Are you saying all these contractors are wrong?


  • #234
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Fils wrote: »
    I know a lot of contractors wiring 10 square direct from db via a contactor straight to shower.
    They use twin brown 1.5 send phase out in one leg and return to A1. Are you saying all these contractors are wrong?

    Yes and it's not even debatable

    Twin and contactor is a method of controlling the supply to the instantaneous shower


  • #235
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    I gather from your previous posts that this is against regs?


  • #236
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Fils wrote: »
    Reci have no issue with it.

    RECI do not write the rules.


  • #237
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    Indeed they don’t, they are produced by industry experts who sit on the NSAI’s Electro Technical Committee.


  • #238
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Every installation has a main isolator to isolate the entire installation
    Every DB has an incomer /isolator to isolate the DB
    Every outbuilding has an isolater/incommer to isolate the outbuilding
    Every appliance has a local isolator to isolate the appliance

    I remember when I first started working on callout to 3P equipment
    Every panel full of contactors has an isolator fitted that has to be turned off before the door will physically open

    Also if you saw what happens with contactors sticking and operators jamming them in you'd never consider them for isolation, appreciate the modular type can't be pushed in.


  • #239
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Fils wrote: »
    I know a lot of contractors wiring 10 square direct from db via a contactor straight to shower.
    They use twin brown 1.5 send phase out in one leg and return to A1. Are you saying all these contractors are wrong?

    Yes I believe they are wrong.

    Have a look at IS10101, 555.1.2:

    Every appliance shall be provided with a seperate isolating switch complying with 537.2 and capable of interrupting the load current. This device shall be installed as close as practicable, ideally within 2m, at a height of between 400 and 1200 mm above floor level, and where it can be operated without danger.

    As can be seen isolating switches must comply with 537.2 "Devices for Isolation" which in trun points to table 527A.1. This is titled "Devices for isolation and switching". This table clearly states that contactors are not suitable for isolation.


  • #240
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    The problem with the domestic isolators arose because the isolators weren't fit for purpose

    Poor quality and not fit for wirng, interrupting load current and repeated on/off

    The solution would be to upgrade the isolation not swtich to a method of controlling the supply to the shower


  • Advertisement
  • #241
    meercat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,757 ✭✭✭meercat


    In 2016 Reci recommend switching showers by contactor

    When I discussed this with my inspector shortly afterwards he didn’t seem keen on the idea

    The control circuit also has to be rcd protected and a double pole switch outside the bathroom door.

    Page 6

    https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/09/2016dec_news.pdf


    My inspector also ruled out contactor isolation for kitchens


  • #242
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    meercat wrote: »
    In 2016 Reci recommend switching showers by contactor

    When I discussed this with my inspector shortly afterwards he didn’t seem keen on the idea

    The control circuit also has to be rcd protected and a double pole switch outside the bathroom door.

    Page 6

    https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/09/2016dec_news.pdf


    My inspector also ruled out contactor isolation for kitchens

    You're just doubling up by adding a contactor

    The dials on the shower unit control the shower and the isolator provides isolation

    What has RCD protection of control circuit got to do with anything or what regulation is that, electrical equipment in bathroom zones is it ?


  • #243
    meercat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,757 ✭✭✭meercat


    Henry.. wrote: »
    You're just doubling up by adding a contactor

    The dials on the shower unit control the shower and the isolator provides isolation

    What has RCD protection of control circuit got to do with anything or what regulation is that, electrical equipment in bathroom zones is it ?

    Just pointing out what Reci recommend at the time and the discussions I had.


  • #244
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    meercat wrote: »
    In 2016 Reci recommend switching showers by contactor

    When I discussed this with my inspector shortly afterwards he didn’t seem keen on the idea

    As I said there is nothing wrong with switching a shower with a contactor. However this does not mean that a local isolator is not a requirement.
    Page 6

    https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/09/2016dec_news.pdf

    I take it that you are referring to this text on page 6:

    As shower switches have been a common problem as regards to fires and contacts burning out, switching with a contactor is recommended.

    I would take this to mean that when switching under load conditions a suitably rated contactor is preferable, not that the contactor can be used as a substitute for the local isolator. The local isolator is still a requirement for compliance with IS10101.


  • #245
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Why would you need to switch a shower load though is the question ?

    The issues with isolators really comes down to the isolator being suitable for the task which they clearly weren't given the number of replacements needed regularly


  • #246
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Henry.. wrote: »
    Why would you need to switch a shower load though is the question ?

    Personally I wouldn't switch the shower via anything when under load conditions. However, some people do so frequently. I also tend to leave shower isolators and cooker switches on all of the time. I believe that these are only for maintenance, nothing else. This debate has occurred on this forum many times.
    The issues with isolators really comes down to the isolator being suitable for the task which they clearly weren't given the number of replacements needed regularly

    I think that too many people use low quality isolators.Crabtree and MK isolators tend to provide a lifetime of trouble free service particularly if they are not switched frequently or under load.


  • Advertisement
  • #247
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    Well the regs in earlier post have copper fastened the topic I had, as such I don’t get involved in that domestic wiring too much just the smart side of it.
    For now showers will stay wired the way via a contactor, I can suggest fitting a double pole isolator at db after contactor. Again I know not compliant, but it’s a isolator for lock off for maintenance as well as lock off rcbo.
    We see more and more customers against using pull cords in bathrooms or the cooker switch beside the light switch.
    Regs are there but a lot are horse and cart generation, so much potential there if a common ground was found. Many the cooker switch or pull cord I have seen in worse wear in installations so getting too caught up in them just because it’s a reg isn’t the be all and end all.


  • #248
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Picture a scenario where there is major work ongoing in an installation

    Someone at the DB energizes the contactor while someone is simultaneously fitting a new shower

    That is the problem or most of it with the remote switching


  • #249
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    The person working at the shower should have locked off and prove dead. They only have key to go live. Common sense.


  • #250
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Fils wrote: »
    The person working at the shower should have locked off and prove dead. They only have key to go live. Common sense.

    Yes, the circuit should be locked off, the protective device should be labelled correctly, the person working on the shower should verify that the power is off....

    Great in theory, but in the real world (especially in domestic installations) this does not always work. This is why IS10101 requires local isolation.

    If your argument was accepted on the basis that any circuit can be isolated at the distribution board, then there would not be a requirement for any local isolators (including cookers).


  • #251
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    You need to be careful if you are depending on a local isolation point to 100% circuit dead. I have seen cooker switches used for showers and although they physically switched off the power was not interrupted through them. That’s why always lock of the mcb, rcbo of the circuit you are working on.
    If it were a lighting supply or socket supply you were working on in a domestic supply isn’t that what you would be doing anyway.
    Lock off kits are cheap.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement