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I.S. 10101 - The replacement for ET101:2008

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Comments

  • #212
    Dred.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Dred.


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    An AFDD is individual to each protected circuit.

    Some of the combined devices might be an RCBO and AFDD, so you could be looking for an overcurrent, an Earth fault or series or parallel arcing. Often there is an indicator to show the reason for the device operating.

    Separates is always better, be crazy trying to troubleshoot random RCBO/AFDD combined trips

    Maybe with the indicator it's not too bad to troubleshoot but you still have the issue of waste if the RCD section goes faulty

    Not just for protective devices

    Computers , audio equipment , lots of stuff, separates makes more sense


  • #213
    dbas
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭dbas


    Hello all,
    I'm wondering do any followers know the rules regarding consumer unit location in a domestic residence.
    I was told it should be no more than 2m from the entrance door.
    Is that correct or a misinterpretation of the rules?
    I'm asking in relation to a 3 storey residence with door at ground floor and kitchen/ living area on second floor.

    Thanks for any assistance


  • #214
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    dbas wrote: »
    Hello all,
    I'm wondering do any followers know the rules regarding consumer unit location in a domestic residence.
    I was told it should be no more than 2m from the entrance door.
    Is that correct or a misinterpretation of the rules?
    I'm asking in relation to a 3 storey residence with door at ground floor and kitchen/ living area on second floor.

    Thanks for any assistance

    That does not make any sense to me so I would be suprised if it was correct. I will have a quick look and see what I can find.


  • #215
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    I just had a look at pages 139 to 141 which is where I would expect to find such a requirement if it existed and there is nothing that states that the DB must be within 2m of the entrance.


  • #216
    dbas
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭dbas


    2011 wrote: »
    I just had a look at pages 139 to 141 which is where I would expect to find such a requirement if it existed and there is nothing that states that the DB must be within 2m of the entrance.

    Thanks for the reply.

    I don't have a copy of it myself. I wonder are they confused between a stand alone house and multi residential main board in an apartment block or something.

    Thanks again


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  • #217
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭meercat


    dbas wrote: »
    Hello all,
    I'm wondering do any followers know the rules regarding consumer unit location in a domestic residence.
    I was told it should be no more than 2m from the entrance door.
    Is that correct or a misinterpretation of the rules?
    I'm asking in relation to a 3 storey residence with door at ground floor and kitchen/ living area on second floor.

    Thanks for any assistance

    Perhaps the requirements for meter box location is getting mixed up with distribution board location
    Meter box required within 2mts of front

    https://www.esbnetworks.ie/docs/default-source/publications/your-meter-cabinet.pdf?sfvrsn=6


  • #218
    dbas
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭dbas


    meercat wrote: »
    Perhaps the requirements for meter box location is getting mixed up with distribution board location
    Meter box required within 2mts of front

    https://www.esbnetworks.ie/docs/default-source/publications/your-meter-cabinet.pdf?sfvrsn=6

    You might have a point there. Has to be done basis for it.
    Thanks


  • #219
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    As regards isolators in kitchen for dishwashers, extractors etc can one put more than one socket one on isolator provided of course loading etc has been taken into account.


  • #220
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭meercat


    Fils wrote: »
    As regards isolators in kitchen for dishwashers, extractors etc can one put more than one socket one on isolator provided of course loading etc has been taken into account.

    No. Separate isolation for each appliance


  • #221
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    meercat wrote: »
    No. Separate isolation for each appliance

    Ok, Ill end up tattoo wall of isolators. I normally use smart light system and we have no isolators on wall.
    Conventional setup here, may use 4 gang switch and contactors .


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  • #222
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Fils wrote: »
    Ok, Ill end up tattoo wall of isolators. I normally use smart light system and we have no isolators on wall.
    Conventional setup here, may use 4 gang switch and contactors .

    Switches and contactors and local isolation are not the same thing


  • #223
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    I’m complying with regs still though am I not?


  • #224
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Fils wrote: »
    I’m complying with regs still though am I not?

    No

    You have to be able to switch off manually close to the appliance


  • #225
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    Electric showers don’t have to, is there a reg specific to kitchen appliances that do?


  • #226
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Fils wrote: »
    Electric showers don’t have to, is there a reg specific to kitchen appliances that do?

    That was something ecssa brought in years ago but it was a mistake

    A lot of contractors fitted the switch and contactor but it was a mixup at the time


  • #227
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    Reci have no issue with it.


  • #228
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    The idea with the shower isolators is that you don't use them to turn off the shower while in use

    You preferably leave them on all the time although DFB will disagree

    And you can safely switch off all the live poles locally while working on the electric shower


  • #229
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    We give a switching from lightning system to contactor for shower. No isolator down stream.


  • #230
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Fils wrote: »
    We give a switching from lightning system to contactor for shower. No isolator down stream.

    There is nothing wrong with switching large loads such as a shower with a contractor. However the shower must have a local isolator.


  • #231
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    We provide a switch at a switch location that energises contactor. This has been approved by Reci, same as some run twin brown and use pull cord switch to energise contactor at db.
    Far more practical and safer than trying to terminate 10 square in a pull cord.


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  • #232
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Fils wrote: »
    We provide a switch at a switch location that energises contactor. This has been approved by Reci, same as some run twin brown and use pull cord switch to energise contactor at db.
    Far more practical and safer than trying to terminate 10 square in a pull cord.

    Whoever is approving it hasn't a clue what they're talking about

    This nonsense all started with ECSSA telling contractors to use contactors instead of isolators because they were burning out

    Obviously easier to wire through a contactor at the DB too but it misses the whole point of isolating locally


  • #233
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    I know a lot of contractors wiring 10 square direct from db via a contactor straight to shower.
    They use twin brown 1.5 send phase out in one leg and return to A1. Are you saying all these contractors are wrong?


  • #234
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Fils wrote: »
    I know a lot of contractors wiring 10 square direct from db via a contactor straight to shower.
    They use twin brown 1.5 send phase out in one leg and return to A1. Are you saying all these contractors are wrong?

    Yes and it's not even debatable

    Twin and contactor is a method of controlling the supply to the instantaneous shower


  • #235
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    I gather from your previous posts that this is against regs?


  • #236
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Fils wrote: »
    Reci have no issue with it.

    RECI do not write the rules.


  • #237
    Fils
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Fils


    Indeed they don’t, they are produced by industry experts who sit on the NSAI’s Electro Technical Committee.


  • #238
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    Every installation has a main isolator to isolate the entire installation
    Every DB has an incomer /isolator to isolate the DB
    Every outbuilding has an isolater/incommer to isolate the outbuilding
    Every appliance has a local isolator to isolate the appliance

    I remember when I first started working on callout to 3P equipment
    Every panel full of contactors has an isolator fitted that has to be turned off before the door will physically open

    Also if you saw what happens with contactors sticking and operators jamming them in you'd never consider them for isolation, appreciate the modular type can't be pushed in.


  • #239
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Fils wrote: »
    I know a lot of contractors wiring 10 square direct from db via a contactor straight to shower.
    They use twin brown 1.5 send phase out in one leg and return to A1. Are you saying all these contractors are wrong?

    Yes I believe they are wrong.

    Have a look at IS10101, 555.1.2:

    Every appliance shall be provided with a seperate isolating switch complying with 537.2 and capable of interrupting the load current. This device shall be installed as close as practicable, ideally within 2m, at a height of between 400 and 1200 mm above floor level, and where it can be operated without danger.

    As can be seen isolating switches must comply with 537.2 "Devices for Isolation" which in trun points to table 527A.1. This is titled "Devices for isolation and switching". This table clearly states that contactors are not suitable for isolation.


  • #240
    Henry..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Henry..


    The problem with the domestic isolators arose because the isolators weren't fit for purpose

    Poor quality and not fit for wirng, interrupting load current and repeated on/off

    The solution would be to upgrade the isolation not swtich to a method of controlling the supply to the shower


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  • #241
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭meercat


    In 2016 Reci recommend switching showers by contactor

    When I discussed this with my inspector shortly afterwards he didn’t seem keen on the idea

    The control circuit also has to be rcd protected and a double pole switch outside the bathroom door.

    Page 6

    https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/09/2016dec_news.pdf


    My inspector also ruled out contactor isolation for kitchens


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