The Chinese Big Lie

cryptocurrency · 24-04-2020 2:48am

MadYaker wrote: »

Interesting bit on China here.

Here's the study he's talking about https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(20)30089-X/fulltext

He doesn't talk about Vietnam, Korea or Australia ...he doesn't believe Russia or any nation that might make western europe look bad. Hmmm

Maybe the world is lying

MadYaker · 24-04-2020 3:03am

He spoke about Australia at length in that video. Did you read the study? He has frequently bashed the UK and US governments in his other videos, and was critical of football matches and cheltenham going ahead in the UK in early March in that exact video I linked. This guy posted a video in January saying that this virus was going to cause a global pandemic. He's made a lot of predictions and they have all turned out to be correct. You should start watching his videos and reading the studies that he links.

cryptocurrency · 24-04-2020 9:35am

MadYaker wrote: »

He spoke about Australia at length in that video. Did you read the study? He has frequently bashed the UK and US governments in his other videos, and was critical of football matches and cheltenham going ahead in the UK in early March in that exact video I linked. This guy posted a video in January saying that this virus was going to cause a global pandemic. He's made a lot of predictions and they have all turned out to be correct. You should start watching his videos and reading the studies that he links.

I seen a brief bit on Aus in the video but skipped through to at speed. Will check now.

Do you have links where he looks at the likes of Vietnam

MadYaker · 24-04-2020 1:07pm

I can't remember if he has covered Vietnam or not. He uploads global updates daily if you start watchig his videos he might cover Vietnam at some point. Send him an email and ask him to he's pretty good at responding. https://www.youtube.com/user/Campbellteaching/about

cryptocurrency · 24-04-2020 2:37pm

MadYaker wrote: »

I can't remember if he has covered Vietnam or not. He uploads global updates daily if you start watchig his videos he might cover Vietnam at some point. Send him an email and ask him to he's pretty good at responding. https://www.youtube.com/user/Campbellteaching/about

The counter of this whole thread has been that the Chinese figures are not that odd within the region and The geographical location of the likes of Vietnam, Lao, etc.. are very significant. These countries are run by fairly similar governments to China. All we have had here is spin and attack from some posters that anyone who pointed that out was either defending China or a bot. I know my whole argument and the info I have been getting from people in China outside of Hubei correlates with these nations.

Why isn’t this the news story, along with the horrendous figures that are coming from Europe/North America more. Focusing on China and some fantasy idea that they could have saved the world if allowed into China in January is a smokescreen.

We keep going around and around in circles on this.

Poor_old_gill · 24-04-2020 2:51pm

https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYXJ0MTkuY29tL2ZyZWFrb25vbWljcy1yYWRpbw&ep=14&episode=NWViODVkZjQtMGZmNS00NDRkLTgzYmQtYWJhNjAwMGVmNTFj

Podcast link- might have been posted already.
Very good listen

cryptocurrency · 24-04-2020 7:00pm

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYXJ0MTkuY29tL2ZyZWFrb25vbWljcy1yYWRpbw&ep=14&episode=NWViODVkZjQtMGZmNS00NDRkLTgzYmQtYWJhNjAwMGVmNTFj

Podcast link- might have been posted already.
Very good listen

Doesn't mention Vietnam ðŸ‡»ðŸ‡³....and of course it will, isn't that the whole point

MadYaker · 24-04-2020 10:59pm

You should watch his daily updates. I like him because he doesn't have an agenda and he justs presents the facts. In time I think we'll find out that the outbreak started in China in november and they had upwards of a quarter of a millon cases. This would line up with the US intellegence reports about an outbreak of a contagion in China in november and the first coronavirus deaths in California in early february.

25-04-2020 12:30am

MadYaker wrote: »

You should watch his daily updates. I like him because he doesn't have an agenda and he justs presents the facts. In time I think we'll find out that the outbreak started in China in november and they had upwards of a quarter of a millon cases. This would line up with the US intellegence reports about an outbreak of a contagion in China in november and the first coronavirus deaths in California in early february.

Perhaps (And I do agree that it's possible), but the US does have an agenda to push, so using their intelligence reports is supporting that agenda. Trump has made it clear that he's aiming directly at China, and pushing any indication of responsibility away from his administration. That's going to be reflected in any intelligence briefings/reports that are released to the public.

MadYaker · 25-04-2020 1:07am

Trump ignored these intel reports fyi, to be honest even at this point i doubt he's aware this intellegence even exists. There's no dounbt trump has an agenda, its blame everyone else in a desperate attempt to save his reelction chances. I don't blame china for what has happened in europe or the USA. But there is rising anti China sentiment all over the world now as the truth slowly begins to come out. In a globalised world we are all in this together. If they could just be straight with the information from the outset it would save everyone a lot of hassle and gain them a lot of credibility.

25-04-2020 2:23am

MadYaker wrote: »

Trump ignored these intel reports fyi, to be honest even at this point i doubt he's aware this intellegence even exists. There's no dounbt trump has an agenda, its blame everyone else in a desperate attempt to save his reelction chances. I don't blame china for what has happened in europe or the USA. But there is rising anti China sentiment all over the world now as the truth slowly begins to come out. In a globalised world we are all in this together. If they could just be straight with the information from the outset it would save everyone a lot of hassle and gain them a lot of credibility.

Yes, but the the US government has been fractured for two decades now. We've seen that with the FBI, CIA, etc playing up to various political groups before and during Trumps reign. The point is that regardless of whether the intelligence agencies are playing to Trumps tune, or not, they're no longer unbiased agencies. There are too many agendas at play here. The military corporations who would have a stake in any war. The various political groups who see China as the enemy. Some are in Trumps camp, but just because the others worked against him before Covid, it's likely they're together with regards to policy on China.

If it was anyone else, I might be more trusting of such reports, but China remains America's most comparable enemy, both economically and militarily. It's logical that most groups will be intent on further discrediting China because it boosts the US image across the world, an image that has been in decline since the invasion of Iraq under Bush.

As for the "truth", I'm skeptical. I don't trust the CCP but I know they're not inept. They're selfish bastards who want to remain in power, and they're unlikely to have as many mistakes with information that "seem" to have happened. The CCP today is not the CCP of Mao. Mao and his cronies, never really understood western society or politics. However, the CCP of today, many of it's upper echelon have studied or lived in western countries before assuming their positions in the government. They know, somewhat, how western nations behave, so I wouldn't be so quick to buy into the info released from the US. They also know the importance of controlling information, and have decades of 'successful' experience in doing so.

Regardless of what China did or said, they would be still be a nation that has concentration camps, engages in ethnic cleansing, etc.. so they don't gain anything by being transparent. That negative perception will always win out. Naturally enough really.

In closing, I wouldn't be so quick to accept the info releases from either the US or China. They're superpowers and they're playing a game between them, and we're stuck in the middle. The US will always look after their own interests first, and would prefer that any fallout happen far from their landmass. History reinforces that the US follows such a strategy. The US has always played at information wars.. all superpowers do.

thebaz · 25-04-2020 11:07am

China being transparent again regarding origin of virus :-
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52420536

What could they be trying to hide ??

25-04-2020 11:44am

thebaz wrote: »

China being transparent again regarding origin of virus :-
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52420536

What could they be trying to hide ??

What do they gain by being transparent, and why should they believe that any such probe will be unbiased or honest?

Look at it all from China's perspective... and don't just start from today. Consider the way that western media, and governments have behaved towards China on a regular basis, and you'll see plenty of reasons for them not to trust any such probe.

Xertz · 25-04-2020 12:00pm

I don’t trust the Chinese figures at all but I also don’t trust the American political agenda. Trump is absolutely nuts. There’s no polite way of saying that and he is constantly looking for external enemies to blame and to deflect attention towards. That’s been a feature of his entire presidency. He even once described the EU as an “enemy” and declared a trade war against Canada ?!!

Even the majority of the American media seems to constantly pander to this “it was the Russians who did this to us” agenda.

The Chinese are a nice handy “reds under the bed” conspiracy theory too.

American politics is absolutely screwed up for decades at this stage. It’s been a slow burn of allowing all sorts of whacky conspiracy theorists, religious extremists, anti science types, gun nuts, blatant racists, polarising very extreme laissez faire neoliberals who are dismantling even basic state services and social supports and pretty much every nutter in the country seems to be prominent in the political system.

They’ve stirred it with extreme shock jocks peddling toxic conspiracy theories, Fox News and plenty of others blurred the lines between news and entertainment to the point they’ve reality tv “boss” as president and they have also thrown open the political system to big money lobbying for many decades at this stage.

But no... it’s Russian interference obviously...

Of course the Russians and plenty of others are trolling them. It’s hardly difficult to!

However, they’ve done the vast, vast majority of the damage entirely by themselves and to themselves.

MadYaker · 25-04-2020 12:02pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What do they gain by being transparent, and why should they believe that any such probe will be unbiased or honest?

Look at it all from China's perspective... and don't just start from today. Consider the way that western media, and governments have behaved towards China on a regular basis, and you'll see plenty of reasons for them not to trust any such probe.

Because they would surely be involved in any such investigation to ensure transparency and fairness. But it seems they aren’t interested in transparency. I don’t think they give 2 fcuks about what western media thinks of them so not sure how that’s relevant. As more evidence continues to come out an investigation may not even been necessary. It seems likely the outbreak started in November and that they had significantly more cases and deaths than their official numbers show. I don’t believe it was made in a lab.

Why are they so cagey with information? Who cares if they did a sh!t job of dealing with this? Loads of countries have dealt with it poorly so they aren’t alone there. From the outside it looks like some counter productive and bizarre attempt to save face.

Xertz · 25-04-2020 12:07pm

What they care about is presenting a face of government competence to the domestic audience. The international image reflects back on them.

Also by being perceived as a rising technical and scientific centre they’re gaining soft power as a serious player on the global stage. China puts a lot of effort and resources into big science - eg give money going into space science for the sake of science etc etc

China isn’t democratic (obviously) but a bit like a medieval kingdom, the ruling elite need to be seen as capable and competent or they risk sparking uprisings.

If they lose the trust of the population, the system could break.

That’s what motivates the CCP to always want to control the narrative. They are masters at maintaining the status quo through intense reputation management censoring, coercing and monitoring.

You have to think of China as more like the structures of a slightly paranoid enormous corporation.

thebaz · 25-04-2020 12:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What do they gain by being transparent, and why should they believe that any such probe will be unbiased or honest?

Look at it all from China's perspective... and don't just start from today. Consider the way that western media, and governments have behaved towards China on a regular basis, and you'll see plenty of reasons for them not to trust any such probe.

The virus originated in China , thats why , the impact the virus has had on the rest of the world, the world have every right to know where and how virus originated.

2u2me · 25-04-2020 12:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What do they gain by being transparent, and why should they believe that any such probe will be unbiased or honest?

Apparently they've been rejecting the original American probe since January also(a little bit more understandable).

This is however an "independent international investigation into the origin of the coronavirus." Nothing american about it.

What do they have to gain? They can be responsible members of the international community that have the same respect afforded to them when the next virus originates somewhere else.

But as usual China wants all the perks of being an international player without participating.

25-04-2020 12:32pm

MadYaker wrote: »

Because they would surely be involved in any such investigation to ensure transparency and fairness. But it seems they aren’t interested in transparency. I don’t think they give 2 fcuks about what western media thinks of them so not sure how that’s relevant. As more evidence continues to come out an investigation may not even been necessary. It seems likely the outbreak started in November and that they had significantly more cases and deaths than their official numbers show. I don’t believe it was made in a lab.

Why are they so cagey with information? Who cares if they did a sh!t job of dealing with this? Loads of countries have dealt with it poorly so they aren’t alone there. From the outside it looks like some counter productive and bizarre attempt to save face.

Yes, but they're not alone in trying to offload how they reacted to the virus. Look at how Spain reacted to the news to the virus throughout March, and how they're refusing any degree of responsibility for it. The Spanish media being just as bad btw. We've seen similiar throughout large parts of the Western world. A negligent attitude to the virus, and then, the offloading of any responsibility... so China doing the same shouldn't be a surprise, since they've never been a nation to accept responsibility for anything.

Why should they care? Because it won't stop with an initial review. It is the nature of western society now, due to the evolution of social media and the internet, to expand something far more than it's original scope. Often without any real evidence to support that expansion in scope. While they don't care what western media or governments think/say outside of their borders, they do care about the impact on their own population, but also, the impact on their trading/economic partners in Asia.

Personally, I don't see any reasons for them to behave differently than they have in the past. They don't gain anything, and they've no reason to trust any western organisation to be impartial. Everything has political links now. Oh, we can dismiss such links, because we're westerners and believe that our culture is more honest, but China won't see it that way. There will always be a degree of paranoia (justified or not) about the influence of the US (or their allies) on any investigation.

Honestly, I do think the best thing for China would be to provide every possible access to an independent body for the investigation, and to involve themselves, in a fair way, in that investigation.... but I have extremely little hope that it would happen. But then, I felt the same way about the invasion of Iraq investigation, or the investigation into the Irish Banking crash. The moment that an investigation is aimed at a political group or issue, it's compromised with the agenda's going on. Guess I've become too cynical.

25-04-2020 12:37pm

2u2me wrote: »

Apparently they've been rejecting the original American probe since January also(a little bit more understandable).

Ahh well, when such a probe is started with claims released to the media, it's understandable to believe an American probe would be biased from the start.

This is however an "independent international investigation into the origin of the coronavirus." Nothing american about it.

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anything coming from an established western led organisation won't have ties or be influenced by either the US or their direct allies.

Where would this international independent group come from?

What do they have to gain? They can be responsible members of the international community that have the same respect afforded to them when the next virus originates somewhere else.

But as usual China wants all the perks of being an international player without participating.

True enough... Their behavior since inclusion in the WTO shows that. Once again, I'm not sure why people are expecting a change in behavior. They've never been a team player with the international community, and have broken/twisted nearly every international agreement they've ever made.

25-04-2020 12:44pm

thebaz wrote: »

The virus originated in China , thats why , the impact the virus has had on the rest of the world, the world have every right to know where and how virus originated.

Sure. And I suspect that the CCP would allow a limited investigation led by their own science/medical community, with international observers. Whether such a limited investigation would be accepted as being accurate, is another story.

I don't believe that they will want an organisation that they have no influence over doing the investigation.

And the first case detected was in China... not that it's been proven to have originated in China. It's things like this that will encourage the CCP to resist being helpful, because many in the West have already decided that China is responsible. Theories accepted as fact, rather than accepting them as the theories that they are.

2u2me · 25-04-2020 2:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anything coming from an established western led organisation won't have ties or be influenced by either the US or their direct allies.

Where would this international independent group come from?

You'd be falling into the same association fallacy trap others have fallen into not believing anything coming out of China.

The group, the World Health Assembly I believe according to that article; the decision making body of the WHO. Trump recently withdrew funding; not sure how much of an influence the US still have.

This is what a European Report had to say:

Some state-controlled social media channels continue to spread the theory of the outbreak in Wuhan being linked to US military representatives, indicating a continued intent to spread confusion about the origin of the virus

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/eeas-special-report-update-2-22-april/

25-04-2020 4:37pm

2u2me wrote: »

You'd be falling into the same association fallacy trap others have fallen into not believing anything coming out of China.

Well, yes. We're all flawed, aren't we?

The group, the World Health Assembly I believe according to that article; the decision making body of the WHO. Trump recently withdrew funding; not sure how much of an influence the US still have.

And what would they do to regain that funding? Or the threat of losing further funding from other nations associated with the US?

This is what a European Report had to say:

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/eeas-special-report-update-2-22-april/

Fair enough, although it is telling that there was little mention of European or US narratives which can be found online or in the media. It's a report aimed at countries external to the "West". (I've seen references that the report notes US or other western narratives, but I've found very little being highlighted)

I'm genuinely not surprised by the amount of misinformation campaigns going on by China, Russia or other countries targeting the EU or the US. We live in an information age, and the internet/social media encourages the distribution of such initiatives.... but it's illogical not to imagine the same coming out of the US, as they have their own propaganda campaigns.

For example:
"According to Graphika, conservative groups have a larger footprint on the global disinformation map surrounding the coronavirus than liberal groups; they make up 27% and 8% of the total presence, respectively. Right-leaning groups — particularly in the US, Italy, and France — are also more active than left-wing groups in engaging with coronavirus disinformation, the firm's report said."

Or the report on disinformation for the US 2020 elections

I'm not seeking to excuse China. Not even slightly. However, it's foolish to assume that only China and Russia are pushing dis/misinformation campaigns. The US has been running propaganda exercises for decades, and there's no way, that they would not be take advantage of this opportunity to damage China. Especially, with Trump at the wheel. That man is addicted to social media and understands the power of the internet for influencing people's perceptions.

2u2me · 25-04-2020 4:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And what would they do to regain that funding? Or the threat of losing further funding from other nations associated with the US?

I have no idea how the politics of the WHO work, except that there is a lot of politics at work.

I'm genuinely not surprised by the amount of misinformation campaigns going on by China, Russia or other countries targeting the EU or the US. We live in an information age, and the internet/social media encourages the distribution of such initiatives.... but it's illogical not to imagine the same coming out of the US, as they have their own propaganda campaigns.

Well this thread is about China's lies. I'm sure there are American lies, European lies etc.... but this is not quite relevant to the coronavirus and the international community's desire to conduct an investigation in China.

As much as I'm sure Trump would like to blame China for everything, he simply does not have that power. He doesn't have the power to threaten the scientists in a way that the Chinese government can do over their scientists. At the moment Trump couldn't sneeze without it being a major headline. There are just as many in his government vehmently against him as there are for him and he can't send the families of dissenters into forced labour camps.

I'm not seeking to excuse China. Not even slightly. However, it's foolish to assume that only China and Russia are pushing dis/misinformation campaigns. The US has been running propaganda exercises for decades, and there's no way, that they would not be take advantage of this opportunity to damage China. Especially, with Trump at the wheel. That man is addicted to social media and understands the power of the internet for influencing people's perceptions.

I'm not assuming anything. I know Trump is actively trying to blame China, perhaps their intelligence agencies are playing information warfare I wouldn't put it past them.
Eyes on the ball though, China won't allow inspectors in. That's the problem again China not playing by the rules of the international community that they signed up to. They reap the rewards while flagrantly dismissing the rules.

thebaz · 25-04-2020 5:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure. And I suspect that the CCP would allow a limited investigation led by their own science/medical community, with international observers. Whether such a limited investigation would be accepted as being accurate, is another story.

I don't believe that they will want an organisation that they have no influence over doing the investigation.

and that is why this cover-up is outrageous - I dont want a CCP investigation , an independent investigation would be the only one to hopefully give us the cause and reason for outbreak , that has devasted so many in the world - and yet China refuses to co-operate with a such an independent investagion. Shame on the CCP.

25-04-2020 6:51pm

2u2me wrote: »

I have no idea how the politics of the WHO work, except that there is a lot of politics at work.

Yup. agreed.

Well this thread is about China's lies. I'm sure there are American lies, European lies etc.... but this is not quite relevant to the coronavirus and the international community's desire to conduct an investigation in China.

Sure it is, because it reflects on how China reacts. And I disagree with the complete focus on China regarding this thread. We are talking about a superpower and how the US or EU behave has relevance. If China is behaving the same as the US has done in the past, then that should be discussed. This is a global issue, and everything is relevant. Dismissing other factors as irrelevant simply encourages a bias to exist.

I don't think anybody on the thread, is trying to forgive or excuse China's behavior. But I think a more balanced perspective is important. We're not Americans, or Chinese. We don't have a direct stake in promoting a particular worldview, so a little more neutrality in thinking is worth pursuing. The world is no longer a simple place... technology and telecommunications have changed it too much for that to be the case again.

As much as I'm sure Trump would like to blame China for everything, he simply does not have that power. He doesn't have the power to threaten the scientists in a way that the Chinese government can do over their scientists. At the moment Trump couldn't sneeze without it being a major headline. There are just as many in his government vehmently against him as there are for him and he can't send the families of dissenters into forced labour camps.

Ahh well, while I would agree that the US wouldn't have the ability to threaten or silence scientists in a public forum, they can (and have) done so for security reasons before. Scientists have been discredited previously for making statements contrary to government policy. Both homeland security and their own intelligence services keep tabs on all their own scientists, and what they're up to. When a country implements laws to increase security and provide wide powers for dealing with "terrorism", then we must acknowledge that the possibility exists that there's more going on than we see.

Wiki
"In July 2014, the Society of Professional Journalists published an open letter to Barack Obama,[25] criticizing efforts to "stifle or block" coverage, despite his 2008 campaign promises to provide transparency.[26] 38 journalist organizations signed the letter, which bulleted several examples of the administration's obstruction, including blocking reporters from specific staff people. The letter also states that reporters were blackballed by Federal agencies who were written about critically.[26] Obama used the Espionage Act to put a record number of reporters' sources in jail"

"Following the election of Donald Trump, his administration pursued means of preventing federal staff from speaking publicly, with the American Association for the Advancement of Science, "the largest scientific society in the world", warning of possible "censorship and intimidation" of the American scientific community.[28] The Trump administration "issued de facto gag orders to government science agencies like the EPA and USDA, ordered that the EPA take down its climate webpage, and have mandated that any studies or data from EPA scientists must undergo review by political appointees before they can be released to the public"

BTW, I'm not making direct comparisons of the US to China. The way that each country is run is completely different. But both nations are very careful about their secrets... and they have different ways of dealing with those who break their silence on government related issues.

I'm not assuming anything. I know Trump is actively trying to blame China, perhaps their intelligence agencies are playing information warfare I wouldn't put it past them.

Good. We're in agreement then. That's nice.

Eyes on the ball though, China won't allow inspectors in. That's the problem again China not playing by the rules of the international community that they signed up to. They reap the rewards while flagrantly dismissing the rules.

Eyes on the ball? Ahh well, I prefer to see why China is so resistant to such initiatives. I like to know what's going on in a broad sense. Sure, I can see that the CCP are bad, nasty, paranoid, etc.. but I do want to know what other agendas are at play, and whether the CCP has reason to fear international condemnation based on disinformation, or other "hidden" agendas.

The invasion of Iraq by Bush Jnr taught me to never again accept the easy answers coming from the US or other governments. They often play with the truth, for their own purposes.

As for reaping the rewards? Can you be more specific? (If we're talking solely about economic agreements, then I completely agree with you)

25-04-2020 6:55pm

thebaz wrote: »

and that is why this cover-up is outrageous - I dont want a CCP investigation , an independent investigation would be the only one to hopefully give us the cause and reason for outbreak , that has devasted so many in the world - and yet China refuses to co-operate with a such an independent investagion. Shame on the CCP.

It's early days yet. I wouldn't be too surprised to see China open up to such an investigation after a while, although I doubt this push to blame China for everything will help to make that happen. There will be political dancing, and negotiations before China plays ball...

As for Shame on the CCP... They're politicians. I don't believe most politicians feel any shame for their behavior.

thebaz · 25-04-2020 8:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

although I doubt this push to blame China for everything will help to make that happen. There will be political dancing, and negotiations before China plays ball...

oh !!!!! I thought virus originated in china - Wuhan to be specific - the world has a right to know did it emerge from a wet market or a Wuhan lab - but you are probably right the CCP probably have no shame , but many are seeing them for what they are - a Superpower Dictatorship (but many overlook this including our own Government

25-04-2020 9:13pm

thebaz wrote: »

oh !!!!! I thought virus originated in china - Wuhan to be specific - the world has a right to know did it emerge from a wet market or a Wuhan lab - but you are probably right the CCP probably have no shame , but many are seeing them for what they are - a Superpower Dictatorship (but many overlook this including our own Government

The virus was first detected in Wuhan (publicly anyway). The wet market being the closest link to a source... and still a theory. Just as the idea of the lab is a theory. There's no evidence to support either theory (yet), just a more reasonable association with the wet market. Reasonable assumptions being the case, rather than any actual proof that these theories are fact.

I don't know why people are pushing that China were ever seen as something other than a totalitarian state. Western media often reports on the human rights violations by China, how it treats its citizens, and how it reneges on past agreements. None of this is a secret. There hasn't ever been a movement within the west to encourage people to see China as a "normal" nation similar to a democracy. And I seriously don't believe that anyone thought they were. My own parents remember the news about the Cultural revolution when it happened, and that's shaped their views on China. Further reports, have simply reinforced those views. (While my parents visited me when I lived in Japan/S.Korea.... they never came to China, even though I lived there longer. They didn't trust China as a destination.)

The Irish government sees import/export value. China is a good source of income... and Ireland is an expensive country to run. It's not about making China into some kind of Utopian dream. They (the government) will encourage a neutral stance on China due to the rewards in doing so, and because it doesn't gain Ireland anything to be hostile. The US can get away with it, but a small nation like Ireland has to be more diplomatic.

2u2me · 25-04-2020 10:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know why people are pushing that China were ever seen as something other than a totalitarian state. Western media often reports on the human rights violations by China, how it treats its citizens, and how it reneges on past agreements. None of this is a secret. There hasn't ever been a movement within the west to encourage people to see China as a "normal" nation similar to a democracy.

I guess this is a wakeup call for the West. They have treated China like a normal democracy on the world stage always hoping they would live up to this billing. It hasn't happened and this strategy needs to change.

thebaz · 25-04-2020 10:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The virus was first detected in Wuhan (publicly anyway). The wet market being the closest link to a source... and still a theory. Just as the idea of the lab is a theory. There's no evidence to support either theory (yet), just a more reasonable association with the wet market. Reasonable assumptions being the case, rather than any actual proof that these theories are fact.

and the only way we will find out what happened is through an Independent investigation, not a CCP investigation that will tell us nothing , but China are refusing this independent review , which smells of more cover-up by the CCP.

25-04-2020 11:25pm

2u2me wrote: »

I guess this is a wakeup call for the West. They have treated China like a normal democracy on the world stage always hoping they would live up to this billing. It hasn't happened and this strategy needs to change.

I don't see it like that. The West played their usual political games thinking they could manipulate China into playing ball, in spite, of China always puling a fast one (of one type or another). The West got greedy, and displayed a false sense of superiority. They saw the market that China presented, believing that the West would remain strong regardless of what happened.

Instead, we have had economic crashes, recessions, and an increase in social instability unlike any other time in our history. Now, the West needs the market that China offers, because it has the population to soak up our production (high production cost, high priced items). Where once we had bank debt piling up, we have switched to business debt. Which is why you're seeing all these cash infusions, either from Trump or from the EU. Our economies have become extremely fragile systems, and now, many Western nations want to push the attention away from the vulnerabilities that Covid has revealed.

I don't see any kind of wake up call. If anything I'm seeing a hunkering down mentality, by pushing reasons to external sources. Rather than deal with our economies, or our splintered and inept political leadership, the focus is on creating an enemy in China. Making demands that China can never accept. Chinese culture in regards to face, and their history to date, means that they can't knuckle down to obvious (and public) foreign demands. They're pushing China into a corner... and I'm not hopeful about what will happen once China decides to push back.

25-04-2020 11:36pm

thebaz wrote: »

and the only way we will find out what happened is through an Independent investigation, not a CCP investigation that will tell us nothing , but China are refusing this independent review , which smells of more cover-up by the CCP.

Anything the CCP does will smell like a cover-up because that's what people want to happen. The internet is full of this attitude. China needs to be the bad guy in all of this.

An independent investigation by whom? Who is it, that China will trust to remain impartial? Would you trust the WHO to conduct such an investigation?

I've had these conversations with my students. Yes, Yes. I know that most posters here believe that Chinese people can't say anything bad about the government or speak honestly on a subject, but it's not true. They can. They just can't go up on YouTube to announce it to the world. And from the perspective of my students, they would feel that the West has done very little to deserve their trust. After all, they all have VPNs and have seen a wide range of abuse directed against both China and Chinese people.

I was asked yesterday in class about this one, and I couldn't deny it:

If the WHO were to find China innocent of these accusations, would you be calling for another investigation.... until they were proven to be responsible?

Judging from the attitudes I've seen online... my students question is relevant.

biko · 26-04-2020 10:04am

klaz, it comes across as if you are spinning and doing damage control on behalf of China.

BanditLuke · 26-04-2020 10:11am

Deleted User wrote: »

It's early days yet. I wouldn't be too surprised to see China open up to such an investigation after a while, although I doubt this push to blame China for everything will help to make that happen. There will be political dancing, and negotiations before China plays ball...

As for Shame on the CCP... They're politicians. I don't believe most politicians feel any shame for their behavior.

They aren't politicians. Politicians face the public and get voted in on merit. They are however communist scum.

Captcha · 26-04-2020 11:43am

biko wrote: »

klaz, it comes across as if you are spinning and doing damage control on behalf of China.

klaz posts read like a wumao

thebaz · 26-04-2020 11:43am

biko wrote: »

klaz, it comes across as if you are spinning and doing damage control on behalf of China.

I thought it was just me, all I was asking for was an independent review of the virus origin, which the CCP has refused, smells of a cover for me , ther are serious questions that need to be answered, when the dust setlles, and it would be best conducted by an independent team, rather than a CCP appointed one.

MadYaker · 26-04-2020 11:48am

thebaz wrote: »

I thought it was just me, all I was asking for was an independent review of the virus origin, which the CCP has refused, smells of a cover for me , ther are serious questions that need to be answered, when the dust setlles, and it would be best conducted by an independent team, rather than a CCP appointed one.

The CCP also need to be involved in any investigation though. They aren’t just going to allow a load of foreigners in to start nosing around.

thebaz · 26-04-2020 12:10pm

MadYaker wrote: »

The CCP also need to be involved in any investigation though. They aren’t just going to allow a load of foreigners in to start nosing around.

Why should they not allow an independent team of observers ?

If they are afraid of an independent team, they are obviously trying to hide something - and for the havoc created througout the world, the world has a right to know what happened and how virus was unleashed , whether from a wet market or a lab - and any possible initial cover-ups.

26-04-2020 12:10pm

biko wrote: »

klaz, it comes across as if you are spinning and doing damage control on behalf of China.

On behalf of China? Why can't I simply disagree as an individual.

I have always voiced my own opinions on subjects. I don't like mob mentality. Nor do I like the ranting that seems so common these days.

Give me logical and well reasoned arguments, and there's a very good chance I'll accept them. It's happened before. Wibbs (and other posters) have made me completely shift my opinion on a fair number of topics.

However, I find on this thread, that there is an expectation to simply accept peoples statements about China. Regardless of the lack of evidence. Nah. I won't do that, if I don't agree with them. It's more ranting and making unsubstantiated claims... and expecting people to simply fall into line.

This is a discussion board. We should be able to discuss the topic of China from any angle. I live there, and I quite like Chinese people in general. I also quite like many aspects of their culture. I don't like the CCP, and what it stands for... even slightly... but at the same time, I have little interest in entertaining the fantasies that often pop up on this thread, about them being removed.

Point is. Convince me. Give me some bloody evidence. Facts. Not theories. Otherwise, i will continue to voice my opinion, regardless of whether it's acceptable to the common view or not. That's what happens so much on this thread. Few posters posting against China's behavior are trying to convince anyone. It's a collection of statements with the expectation that everyone simply accept them.

Biko, Did you really want an echo chamber? Well, you just got it. Enjoy!

26-04-2020 12:18pm

Captcha wrote: »

klaz posts read like a wumao

Whereas you sound like you're trying to curry favor with the mob by being cute.

You do realise that I have criticized the CCP and have agreed with other posters on a number of negatives regarding both China and China's involvement with covid. I've even said not to trust anything said by the CCP. Gosh. I must have been faking it. :rolleyes:

But yes, I understand. Unless you completely accept that China is evil and at blame for everything, then, you must be part of the wumao brigade. Just another way to shut down discussion that disagrees... Bring on the echo chamber where nobody disagrees, and everyone can make ignorant statements without any inspection. Yay!

26-04-2020 12:22pm

But sure, I'm done.

BanditLuke · 26-04-2020 12:27pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Whereas you sound like you're trying to curry favor with the mob by being cute.

You do realise that I have criticized the CCP and have agreed with other posters on a number of negatives regarding both China and China's involvement with covid. I've even said not to trust anything said by the CCP. Gosh. I must have been faking it. :rolleyes:

But yes, I understand. Unless you completely accept that China is evil and at blame for everything, then, you must be part of the wumao brigade. Just another way to shut down discussion that disagrees... Bring on the echo chamber where nobody disagrees, and everyone can make ignorant statements without any inspection. Yay!

At least you can discuss whatever you want on here without fear of the commies kicking the door in and dragging you away, you know like the people in Wuhan who attempted to warn the world what was coming.

2u2me · 26-04-2020 2:31pm

I have little interest in entertaining the fantasies that often pop up on this thread, about them being removed.

Yet you engage with every one of them! People are free to express his opinion. Biko only said

It comes across as

I believe you are genuine, but genuinely brainwashed by the CCP!;)

cryptocurrency · 26-04-2020 9:10pm

Vietnam...discuss

cryptocurrency · 27-04-2020 2:16pm

Today I have been mostly looking at Malaysia. Penang and KL.

Interesting feedback from contacts in both places.

Thye must be lying though, right?

cryptocurrency · 28-04-2020 4:44pm

https://consortiumnews.com/2020/04/16/covid-19-vietnam-winning-new-war-against-invisible-enemy/

Vietnam

Also, Today I have mostly been looking at the handling Indonesia

Captcha · 28-04-2020 4:58pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Today I have been mostly looking at Malaysia. Penang and KL.

Interesting feedback from contacts in both places.

Thye must be lying though, right?

What is the feedback?

fryup · 02-05-2020 5:46pm

This french nobel prize winning scientist is convinced the virus is manufactured....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MmqJmleaw8

Infini · 02-05-2020 6:03pm

To be fair I'd honestly hold back on the "china made it" until more evidence emerges to prove otherwise, that being said the CCP are going to be in real trouble in the coming years because of this, calling it their "Chernobyl" is a fairly accurate assesment of it, it's all well and good trying to hide things from their own people but the rest of the world will remember and I'd expect a more accelerated shift away from China in the coming year's over this if they continue to just brazen their way through this, people inside China tried to alert the danger of this and they covered it up till it was too late, even now they try to hide what happened because the truth is they're too afraid or downright incapable of dealing with well earned criticism and this isn't the first time a virus has come out of there it's just the first time they let something escape that caused such widespread damage.

The Chinese Big Lie

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