Masks

loyatemu · 31-03-2020 9:54am

I've seen a couple of articles suggesting that covering your mouth with something is still better than nothing. The virus may be very small but droplets expelled in coughs and sneezes are not, and reducing your overall exposure is still beneficial:

https://twitter.com/SolNataMD/status/1244752499011092481

https://twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1242894378441506816

Wibbs · 31-03-2020 10:08am

Yes: other

Masks make a difference. It's basic logic here. If everyone wore one while outside around other people transmission rates would fall. The problem is supply. There aren't enough of them for those that really need them in the health service, so bodies who represent them have tried to mitigate against panic buying and hoarding so their members are protected. THe CDC in the US are pretty clear about that, as are our HSE. They're needed for frontline health workers. Korea and Germany have even banned their export to keep enough supply for their own health workers.

This is the R0 number for the virus in the Czech Republic where they became compulsory on the 18th of March.

In the Czech Republic supply issues were helped by the community starting to make their own. We could do that here. It would also help community morale.

silverharp · 31-03-2020 10:23am

Tucker on the issue, basically stop lying to us, it divides and causes cynicism

https://twitter.com/maskthespread/status/1244828768813842432

loyatemu · 31-03-2020 10:24am

re: supply problems, it would seem covering your mouth/nose with anything is better than nothing, I have a load of elasticated buffs I've been given at cycling events, conferences etc, might be time to dig them for shopping trips:

https://twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1242894394396729344

cnocbui · 31-03-2020 10:34am

riffmongous wrote: »

What's the actual source for that?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322931/

cnocbui · 31-03-2020 10:52am

When this dies down, I want to see every western country do an accounting of whether large quantities of PPE were bought and exported to China in January and February. I'm not talking about long standing contracts, but sudden out of the blue orders or buying up of existing stocks, particularly by resident Chinese nationals and companies who then exported them. I'll bet the 100 tonnes hosed from Australia, leaving shortages, is only the tip of the iceberg.

The suspicion that Doctors and nurses and some citizens have likely died because of such outrageous practices, makes my blood boil.

machiavellianme · 31-03-2020 11:02am

cnocbui wrote: »

When this dies down, I want to see every western country do an accounting of whether large quantities of PPE were bought and exported to China in January and February. I'm not talking about long standing contracts, but sudden out of the blue orders or buying up of existing stocks, particularly by resident Chinese nationals and companies who then exported them. I'll bet the 100 tonnes hosed from Australia, leaving shortages, is only the tip of the iceberg.

The suspicion that Doctors and nurses and some citizens have likely died because of such outrageous practices, makes my blood boil.

If the outbreak started in Ireland and we started placing large out of the blue orders to buy up all stock everywhere, would you have the same problem?

Living Off The Splash · 31-03-2020 11:07am

Yes: homemade

Deleted User wrote: »

It's now compulusory in Austria to wear masks in supermarkets; you won't get in without one. Some of the Asian countries made it complusory to wear them on public transport months ago. Singapore issued 4 masks per household in January ... we get postcards..

The authorities here told people that masks don't work.

Couldn't agree more. Simon Harris said that he would be honest with the people of Ireland.....the fact of the matter is we don't have any masks for public use and only got masks for frontline staff at the weekend.

Living Off The Splash · 31-03-2020 11:23am

Yes: homemade

cnocbui wrote: »

When this dies down, I want to see every western country do an accounting of whether large quantities of PPE were bought and exported to China in January and February. I'm not talking about long standing contracts, but sudden out of the blue orders or buying up of existing stocks, particularly by resident Chinese nationals and companies who then exported them. I'll bet the 100 tonnes hosed from Australia, leaving shortages, is only the tip of the iceberg.

The suspicion that Doctors and nurses and some citizens have likely died because of such outrageous practices, makes my blood boil.

Back in early February we went searching for P3 standard masks. The only outlets that had any were the building trade type outlets. We needed these for our son and his wife who live in China as there were none available there.

We spent a couple of days going around the various outlets and were told that many Asian's were purchasing these to send back to family members who needed them.

We managed to source about 30 different makes of masks and started sending parcels made up of about 5 masks every week to his address in China. Apparently some parcels were being lost in transit so we staggered the parcels being sent.

Thankfully we held back about 10 and are now using these for ourselves.

In the meantime our son in China has managed to source masks for us and family. We received his parcel this week.

Every one of my family will wear a mask when we have to go to the supermarket or similar.

We approached the Limerick company that manufactures them back in February, only to be told that all their production up to July had been sold. The question that keeps popping up in my head is "sold to who".

The government of Ireland should be providing every household one mask per week so that one family member can use it when going to the supermarket.

all about the mane · 31-03-2020 11:30am

gozunda wrote: »

That graph has already been debunked

BanditLuke · 31-03-2020 11:33am

Did the weekly shop yesterday in Supervalu for my parents and i'd say 20% of people had masks and only one member of staff.

Wibbs · 31-03-2020 11:34am

Yes: other

all about the mane wrote: »

That graph has already been debunked

Indeed, the China curve for a start. However it doesn't mean the mass wearing of masks by the general public is a pointless exercise. It is demonstrably not and there are many studies on how masks reduce the spread of pathogens. They don't stop magically working at the hospital doors.

all about the mane · 31-03-2020 11:36am

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed, the China curve for a start. However it doesn't mean the mass wearing of masks by the general public is a pointless exercise. It is demonstrably not and there are many studies on how masks reduce the spread of pathogens. They don't stop magically working at the hospital doors.

The effect is negligible.

Wibbs · 31-03-2020 11:44am

Yes: other

all about the mane wrote: »

The effect is negligible.

How much evidence do you need or are you just parroting the HSE line unthinkingly? Are you in the health service? I note you have said you have access to masks hence the question.

Earlier in the thread you said this:

all about the mane wrote: »

I have access to masks but wouldn’t wear them unless I am up close with a symptomatic covid19 person.

OK.

1) why would you wear one with a symptomatic individual? If their efficacy is so limited why bother?

2) would you insist a symptomatic individual wear one? If their efficacy is so limited why bother?

3) infected individuals are shedding virus for at least four days before becoming symptomatic. If everyone wore one while outside would their effectiveness be magically reduced in the case of asymptomatic individuals?

4) if you are in a shop or supermarket you're close enough with members of the public and you have no clue which ones may be asymptomatic carriers.

BanditLuke · 31-03-2020 11:44am

all about the mane wrote: »

The effect is negligible.

Not if someone coughs or sneezes it's not. You do know this right?

Like iv'e said before once there is enough supply for everyone they will become mandatory for all citizens when leaving the home here.

Wibbs · 31-03-2020 11:48am

Yes: other

On the effect is negligible in community settings here is a much cited research paper on the SARS epidemic. To save clicking fingers here are the conclusions.

Most cases of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) have occurred in close contacts of SARS patients. However, in Beijing, a large proportion of SARS cases occurred in persons without such contact. We conducted a case-control study in Beijing that compared exposures of 94 unlinked, probable SARS patients with those of 281 community-based controls matched for age group and sex. Case-patients were more likely than controls to have chronic medical conditions or to have visited fever clinics (clinics at which possible SARS patients were separated from other patients), eaten outside the home, or taken taxis frequently. The use of masks was strongly protective. Among 31 case-patients for whom convalescent-phase (>21 days) sera were available, 26% had immunoglobulin G to SARS-associated coronavirus. Our finding that clinical SARS was associated with visits to fever clinics supports Beijing’s strategy of closing clinics with poor infection-control measures. Our finding that mask use lowered the risk for disease supports the community’s use of this strategy.

Researchers tend to avoid words like "strongly protective" unless clear unambiguous evidence is found.

31-03-2020 11:58am

We managed to source about 30 different makes of masks and started sending parcels made up of about 5 masks every week to his address in China. Apparently some parcels were being lost in transit so we staggered the parcels being sent.

I wouldn't publicly boast about bulk-buying masks in Ireland and sending to China.

Chinese nationals living here were doing this in droves in Jan/Feb. That's why there was none available when we needed them.

cnocbui · 31-03-2020 12:15pm

machiavellianme wrote: »

If the outbreak started in Ireland and we started placing large out of the blue orders to buy up all stock everywhere, would you have the same problem?

Yes.

Manion · 31-03-2020 12:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't publicly boast about bulk-buying masks in Ireland and sending to China.

Chinese nationals living here were doing this in droves in Jan/Feb. That's why there was none available when we needed them.

Who is we and who is them in this instance? People were buying masks in January and February to send to their families in China. It's what any decent person would do and if you say you wouldn't have done the same, then I don't believe you.

The only reason we have masks and respirators in our household is because we had family members who were in china at the time of the outbreak warn us of the reality. The people who bought at the start of the year had a real need for them and it's not like you didn't have access to world news. You choose not to buy them because you decided this wouldn't affect you. Don't blame others for your own life choices. You're not entitled for these things to be held in reserve for you until such time as you decided to take things seriously.

btw: I posted in work letting all my colleagues know I was buying respirators and they should do the same. I also told all my friends. No one did what I did. I think most thought I was a reactionary nut job and others felt "sure they do nothing anyway". No one is laughing now.

Wibbs · 31-03-2020 12:59pm

Yes: other

Manion wrote: »

others felt "sure they do nothing anyway".

Sadly too many still believe this and our own HSE isn't helping.

khalessi · 31-03-2020 1:24pm

Yes: surgical

I used to wear masks in work to protect me from getting anything from the patients, hence when this started I bought some in January

cj maxx · 31-03-2020 1:29pm

Yes: surgical

Is there anywhere to even buy masks now? I'd happily wear one when out in public

31-03-2020 1:41pm

cj maxx wrote: »

Is there anywhere to even buy masks now? I'd happily wear one when out in public

All of our masks were bulk-bought in Jan/Feb by Chinese nationals and tourists and sent to their relatives back home. They were doing it all over the world.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus-chinese-students-and-tourists-buy-12000-face-masks-edinburgh-pharmacy-send-home-families-1381955

Several pharmacists I know have told similar stories. I highlighted it at the time. Export of essential PPE should have been outlawed.

What they're sending us now is mostly defective. They took all our good stuff and 2 months later sent us total junk. You can't make this stuff up.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52092395

yosser hughes · 31-03-2020 1:59pm

Yes: valved

cj maxx wrote: »

Is there anywhere to even buy masks now? I'd happily wear one when out in public

Do you have a sewing machine a home by any chance. They're easy enough t make. We have made our own.
Despite the green jersey jingosim in our press I think the head of the HSE Paul Reid is way out of his depth and it shows.

Wibbs · 31-03-2020 3:29pm

Yes: other

cj maxx wrote: »

Is there anywhere to even buy masks now? I'd happily wear one when out in public

They're hard to find now and price gouging is in full effect. I was talking with a pharmacist the other day and they told me they got some stock in and they sent it right back. Really shoddy quality and scandalously expensive on top of that. It's one area where we've really dropped the ball.

Like I said I can fully understand why the HSE have been peddling the notion that they're useless in the wider community, as they needed them first, but they have to dial that back because clearly people are taking this as gospel, even when it's bloody blindingly obviously contradictory and incorrect and someone in government needs to source enough so people can wear one in public.

They're a simple enough thing to make and I'm sure there are any number of small firms in paper/clothing etc industries large and small that could ramp up to production.

On top of that they need to run a drive for community making of them like they did in the Czech republic until we get supplies in place.

And like the Czech republic and Taiwan I'd make it compulsory to wear face masks in public places. They work. They worked for SARS and they'll work for what is a near identical virus.

People need to watch this video and we as a nation need to get on board with it.

We need the clear leadership to do so. I will lay a bet now that when we look back at Christmas public wearing of masks will be compulsory in many many countries and hopefully our own.

cnocbui · 31-03-2020 4:49pm

cj maxx wrote: »

Is there anywhere to even buy masks now? I'd happily wear one when out in public

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B0053FQIM6/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all&qid=1585669641&sr=8-7

31-03-2020 5:14pm

Austria distributing and partially obliging the public to wear masks to stop people spreading infection:

"Austria will require shoppers to wear basic face masks in supermarkets in a bid to slow the spread of the coronavirus, Chancellor Sebastian Kurz said on Monday. ..........................

“As of the moment these masks are handed out in front of supermarkets it will be compulsory to wear them in supermarkets,” he said, adding the aim in the medium-term was for people to wear them in public more generally as well.
The so-called MNS masks are below medical grade and aimed at preventing the wearer from spreading it to others by coughing or sneezing, he said, adding: “Currently the infections are far too high.”
The masks will be handed out probably from Wednesday." https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/coronavirus-austria-to-make-basic-face-masks-compulsory-in-supermarkets-1.4215750

"It would be a mistake to think that such masks protect you,” Mr Kurz added. “But the airborne transmission is somewhat reduced. This is not a substitute for [social] distancing.”
https://www.ft.com/content/f68f3063-5024-4654-9389-bcc7ee1efd8e

Wibbs · 31-03-2020 5:17pm

Yes: other

Here's an irish seller on ebay https://www.ebay.ie/itm/10PCS-Protection-3-Layers-Fabric-MOUTH-AND-NOSE-COVER-FACE-MASKS-mask/223959594563?hash=item3425083643:g:zfwAAOSwedNegIdp 12 quid for 10. No idea of quality but better than nothing.

Wibbs · 31-03-2020 5:22pm

Yes: other

1641 wrote: »

Austria distributing and partially obliging the public to wear masks to stop people spreading infection:

Good idea and it'll be coming here soon too and rightfully. They reduce the spread of droplets from people breathing and coughing and the reduce the amount of droplets breathed in by those not coughing. Like the lass in the Czech video puts it "I protect you, you protect me". If everyone is wearing one when out and about transmission rates will fall. As the various reports into the SARS outbreak found, masks are strongly protective, so let's put the "HSE we don't have enough for staff, but they're useless" mantra where it belongs, in the past. The HSE are getting 200 million euros worth of PPE gear, so...

SuperRabbit · 31-03-2020 6:04pm

If you have a mask already please wear it or donate it. 50% of people who have this thing are completely asymptomatic (data from iceland) and yet they can spread it (data from a small town in italy where scientists were able to test everyone and monitor new cases).

The idea that there are masks sitting on shelves when they are guaranteed to prevent at least some infections, is very sad. One more time: unless you are are exposed to a ****load of this, masks are not to stop you getting it, they are to stop you giving it. So continue to be incredibly cautious while wearing a mask, because the mask isn't going to stop you getting it (though it does make a difference to heatlhcare workers and carers, maybe because of this hypothesis that most people are ok if they only get a small dose of it but people of all ages can be killed if they get a big dose of it, a lot of the little microscopic pricks)

Manion · 31-03-2020 6:20pm

Masks = Reduce the risk of you giving it to others
Respirators = Reduce the risk of you getting it

Wibbs · 31-03-2020 6:33pm

Yes: other

SuperRabbit wrote: »

One more time: unless you are are exposed to a ****load of this, masks are not to stop you getting it, they are to stop you giving it. So continue to be incredibly cautious while wearing a mask, because the mask isn't going to stop you getting it (though it does make a difference to heatlhcare workers and carers, maybe because of this hypothesis that most people are ok if they only get a small dose of it but people of all ages can be killed if they get a big dose of it, a lot of the little microscopic pricks)

One more time indeed: that's pretty much mostly nonsense and makes little sense at all. I mean think for a moment. If it stops you transmitting it by stopping virus laden aerosols passing from the inside out, how do the same virus laden aerosols magically pass through from the outside in? And then more of this magic occurs with healthcare workers?

Look, please read this actual y'know actual scientific study into SARS and transmission risks. SARS and Covid-19 are very similar coronoviruses.

The salient part is this: The use of masks was strongly protective. Our finding that mask use lowered the risk for disease supports the community’s use of this strategy.

Boggles · 31-03-2020 6:41pm

cnocbui wrote: »

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B0053FQIM6/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all&qid=1585669641&sr=8-7

Condition = Used.

You're grand.

barrymanilow · 31-03-2020 6:42pm

Yes: other

How long do you think you can use an N95 respirator before it stops filtering/being effective ?

Ive read things from half an hour to a week but say if I only wear it to pop into a supermarket for 20 minutes once a week and then leave it sit until next week then I reckon it should be good for weeks , even if the carbon filter thingy is done it will still be a barrier in front of my nose and mouth and a disincentive to touch my face.

Wibbs · 31-03-2020 6:59pm

Yes: other

barrymanilow wrote: »

How long do you think you can use an N95 respirator before it stops filtering/being effective ?

It's a particulate filter, so it stops working when it clogs up. In dusty conditions that will be an issue, but not in everyday non dusty conditions. Activated charcoal filters do "go off" quickly enough as the charcoal becomes saturated with whatever chemicals are present in the air, but they're not what's doing the main filtering of viruses and aerosols containing them.

*Personal opinion* I'd reckon even the basic paper "disposable" filters/masks can be used for much longer when being used for twenty minute runs to the shops a couple of times a week. The half face ones with replaceable HEPA filters could last for years.

cj maxx · 31-03-2020 8:10pm

Yes: surgical

cnocbui wrote: »

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B0053FQIM6/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all&qid=1585669641&sr=8-7

4.87 for USED ones . They can F.O.

fr336 · 31-03-2020 8:14pm

Yes: surgical

Boggles wrote: »

Condition = Used.

You're grand.

Is it even cheaper if it's been used by a Corona patient? :pac:

khalessi · 31-03-2020 8:20pm

Yes: surgical

Interesting the way the question was answered regarding masks in tonight's briefing. They have a benefit to prevent spread and are useful for health workers in relation to aerosol spread of cv19 to paraphrase.

They fudged the last bit as they didnt want to say they have protective elements

Wibbs · 31-03-2020 8:28pm

Yes: other

I think the only way we as a people can get this message out is on social media and the like. The more people promote them the more will wear them. It worked well in the Czech Republic, but then again they had leadership in the matter. We're getting half truths and BS from the HSE. Understandable a month ago, damn near irresponsible today.

cnocbui · 31-03-2020 8:56pm

Boggles wrote: »

Condition = Used.

You're grand.

I wondered too until I read the explanation that it meant a packet that had been opened.

expectationlost · 31-03-2020 8:57pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I think the only way we as a people can get this message out is on social media and the like. The more people promote them the more will wear them. It worked well in the Czech Republic, but then again they had leadership in the matter. We're getting half truths and BS from the HSE. Understandable a month ago, damn near irresponsible today.

wear what? people dont have masks

krissovo · 31-03-2020 9:01pm

The news in Singapore earlier had a segment and a very heated debate as to why us westerners are so anti masks and with months of preparation time we didn't equip the population. That would have had a very significant impact in reducing the deaths and infection rates in Europe and USA and had interesting experts stating viral overload (blah, blah didn't understand fully) from the virus are now proven to be reduced even with simple masks and reduces the serious disease numbers that are in Europe.

Manion · 31-03-2020 9:05pm

new york times article on the CDC reconsidering advice on the wearing of masks based on a new understanding that up to 25% of people are asymptomatic and are spreading the infection. It's clear from the article the main concern for the CDC is supply of masks. We really should stop debating if they are effective or not it's a question now of who is most in need of them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/health/cdc-masks-coronavirus.html

Wibbs · 31-03-2020 9:17pm

Yes: other

expectationlost wrote: »

where what? people dont have masks

You can get a pack of ten from Ireland on ebay for 12 quid. There are other sources too) , and we could start a grassroots drive to make homemade ones like they did in other countries.

expectationlost · 31-03-2020 9:21pm

Wibbs wrote: »

You can get a pack of ten from Ireland on ebay for 12 quid. There are other sources too) , and we could start a grassroots drive to make homemade ones like they did in other countries.

if that person has so many masks that should sell them at cost to the hospitals or nursing homes they need more then I do.

Jin's Industrial Limited was set up on Wednesday the 10th of April 2019 https://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Jins-Industrial-Limited-647877

khalessi · 31-03-2020 9:33pm

Yes: surgical

expectationlost wrote: »

wear what? people dont have masks

THey can make them but tbh Id be rubbish at that

Gynoid · 31-03-2020 9:33pm

https://www.craftpassion.com/face-mask-sewing-pattern/

I and some in my family are making these masks.
For future tweaking there may be non woven materials that can be inserted in lining, but for now 2 or 2 layers of cloth is better than nothing. Pipe cleaners can be used to tighten the fit at bridge of nose. Funny enough it is getting hard to find elastic band (a little) but old elastic from tracksuits, old shoe laces and even cut up lengths of old cotton tee shirts can be used to strap on.
No special material is needed. I am using old curtain or anything tightly woven.
It is not medical, of course not. But it is instinctive to cover the mouth and nose when a respiratory disease is about.

Wibbs · 31-03-2020 9:36pm

Yes: other

The HSE has brought in 200 million quids worth of PPE and other medical equipment. I think they'll have enough masks. This is the point. On top of the measures we're already taking, if the majority of us wore masks when we went outside this would reduce the spread of the disease, which in turn would put less pressure on the health service and medical staff in it. In the countries that got a handle on this thing more than most the vast majority insist on masks worn outside.

Gynoid · 31-03-2020 9:39pm

https://twitter.com/nursekelsey/status/1244654675401547776?s=19

People are coming up with new ways so the elastic does not hurt like buttons on a headband. I have seen the ear elastics joined behind head with paper clip too. So no pressure on ears.

expectationlost · 31-03-2020 10:15pm

Wibbs wrote: »

The HSE has brought in 200 million quids worth of PPE and other medical equipment

not yet

ps Jin's Industrial Limited was set up on Wednesday the 10th of April 2019 https://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Jins-Industrial-Limited-647877

Masks

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