Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

The Lost Sheep · 21-11-2020 6:06pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Novice rugby question.
Were England fouling during Irish lineouts. They weren't making any attempt to play the ball but just stick a hand in between our receiver

No. They were fine. Opposition can catch ball or knock it back to their side but cant touch anyone who's in the air

Akrasia wrote: »

How is our lineout still so bad?

Kelleher is poor at throwing. Ryan who was running the lineout made same very poor decisions on calls which english read well and contested

theVersatile · 21-11-2020 6:06pm

Pros:
POM is a king
Doris did well
About 40% of James Ryan's performance.
Lowe powerful in contact down the edge
Porter with some shift; Roux a workhorse
Earls - age is only a number
Jacob gets a needed try for the confidence (shout out to Burns for the chip)
Farrell showed glimpses of quality in contact - especially around the 60-70 min mark. (not forgetting him getting bamboozled by May though).

Meh:
20% of James Ryan's performance.
Keenan took a lot of hits - safe under the high ball - but didn't find purchase in attack - caught for May's score.
Healy chugged along.
Murray took control when he came on.
Bundee quiet.
CJ very quiet, may potentially move down pending stats.
The subs in general - lacking impact bar half backs. Maybe Herring.

Cons:
The other 40% of James Ryan's game.
Kelleher and the line out.
Discipline.
Immense lack of luck.
JGP with poor decisions and average skills - you'd wonder why Murray didn't start if we planned on kicking as much as we did - then bring on JGP when chasing.
Ross Byrne very deep, very static, not very square. Probably unlucky with some of his kicks, but one to forget overall.

Akrasia · 21-11-2020 6:08pm

Kraftwerk wrote: »

I hope this doesn't result in a change of attitude to JGP. He was caught out a few times but still quick and threatening. He'd have worked better with Burns.

If Murray was a slow as JGP was at a lot of rucks today, people would be demanding that he be exiled to the swamps of eternal despair

JGP was slow because we didn't have any clean ball. JGP isn't a bad player, but he made some very poor decisions today, taking on big risks against huge players without support resulting in missed opportunities, turnovers and almost giving away a try

kingofthekong · 21-11-2020 6:08pm

Tomtom364 wrote: »

Slightly out of the box thinking.

Should Ireland call Billy Holland up to the squad.
Not to play.
But to coach the damn lineout.

By all account Billy is an absolute lineout expert and does a heck of a lot of work in the Munster lineout analysis.

for a second....for a split second I though you were advocating for Holland to be brought into the team

Clegg · 21-11-2020 6:09pm

Some encouraging signs today. Our lads kept the ball well and got into positions where we could furt Emgland. But a lot of bad things as well. We still can't convert pressure into points. It was a problem under Schmidt and it's still a problem now. Thought Doris and Porter were the pick of the forwards

Our 10/12/13 needs serious re-evaluating. Ross Byrne's first cap can be discounted as his pack was mullered. But today we were fairly even with England. He just didn't seem confident to try things and just shipped the ball on. Aki and Farrell are too similar to be an effective partnership. Thought Farrell in particular was poor.

kingofthekong · 21-11-2020 6:10pm

Soooooo good hit out then.

Tomtom364 · 21-11-2020 6:11pm

I wasn't convinced by the appointment of Andy Farrell when it was announced.
But willing to give him a chance to show what a team coached by him can do.

I've yet to see anything to change my initial opinion
If anything that opinion has strengthened

kingofthekong · 21-11-2020 6:11pm

Clegg wrote: »

Some encouraging signs but a lot of bad things as well. We still can't convert pressure into points. It was a problem under Schmidt and it's still a problem now. Thought Doris and Porter were the pick of the forwards

Our 10/12/13 needs serious re-evaluating. Ross Byrne's first cap can be discounted as his pack was mullered. But today we were fairly even with England. He just didn't seem confident to try things and just shipped the ball on. Aki and Farrell are too similar to be an effective partnership. Thought Farrell in particular was poor.

Our pack is where the most troubling issues lie....we are now routinely getting absolutely dominated by England to the point where is looks like a childs team facing a mens team

kingofthekong · 21-11-2020 6:13pm

Tomtom364 wrote: »

I wasn't convinced by the appointment of Andy Farrell when it was announced.
But willing to give him a chance to show what a team coached by him can do.

I've yet to see anything to change my initial opinion
If anything that opinion has strengthened

I'm not sure he has the players with enough quality to win that game regardless of the game plan, man for man they are a better team, not sure how much Farrell is to blame for the pack not being aggressive enough

Clegg · 21-11-2020 6:16pm

Pretty disappointed at some people writing off Ronan Kelleher. Today was his second start for Ireland and just his 20th appearance as a professional rugby player. And just 13 of this shave been starts.

He's at the very beginning of his career and saying he's not good enough because the lineout is malfunctioning is pure rubbish. The set piece is about every different component working well as a unit, which clearly wasn't happening today.

Bazzo · 21-11-2020 6:19pm

Clegg wrote: »

Pretty disappointed at some people writing off Ronan Kelleher. Today was his second start for Ireland and just his 20th appearance as a professional rugby player. And just 13 of this shave been starts.

He's at the very beginning of his career and saying he's not good enough because the lineout is malfunctioning is pure rubbish. The set piece is about every different component working well as a unit, which clearly wasn't happening today.

I'm certainly not writing him off but I think after today it's clear that he's not ready to start a top level test. Bench him for a year and tell him to focus all his energy on the basics of his game: scrummaging and throwing, because neither are where they need to be. The lineout particularly in the first half was in absolute meltdown and that's probably 60/40 Kelleher/Ryan.

nigeldaniel · 21-11-2020 6:19pm

Odd as it may seem, but the more I see England play the more it seems they park the bus in front of the posts then kick the ball down the pitch. Like some others here, I am not convinced Andy Farrell is the best to be the boss. If we give Ireland another 6 months I think we will all have a better idea if our current game plan works.

the baby bull elephant · 21-11-2020 6:19pm

Clegg wrote: »

Pretty disappointed at some people writing off Ronan Kelleher. Today was his second start for Ireland and just his 20th appearance as a professional rugby player. And just 13 of this shave been starts.

He's at the very beginning of his career and saying he's not good enough because the lineout is malfunctioning is pure rubbish. The set piece is about every different component working well as a unit, which clearly wasn't happening today.

He had a few bad throws but two Ryan should have held and the one for May’s try looked like a late lift.

Thought he showed up well in the loose, had a few dominant tackles including one on Billy Vunipola and carried well enough.

kingofthekong · 21-11-2020 6:25pm

1. Healy
2. Kelleher
3. Furlong
4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6.Baird
7. Leavy
8. Doris

^^ I want to start see this pack , its the only one in the near future i see beating England

thomond2006 · 21-11-2020 6:26pm

CMcsporty wrote: »

Next WC?
He’s finished as an international winger now.

CMcsporty wrote: »

Hilarious!
Trimble, Bowe all done by the time they were 33
Earls is no different

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPD5q6DC43M

bilston · 21-11-2020 6:29pm

Clegg wrote: »

Pretty disappointed at some people writing off Ronan Kelleher. Today was his second start for Ireland and just his 20th appearance as a professional rugby player. And just 13 of this shave been starts.

Agree he absolutely shouldn't be written off...but in a way you've also explained why he shouldn't be starting for Ireland right now. He seems destined to be the long term answer at hooker, but right now, Id have Herring starting with Kelleher getting plenty of exposure off the bench. Nevertheless he will learn from days like today and be better for it.

The Lost Sheep · 21-11-2020 6:29pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

1. Healy
2. Kelleher
3. Furlong
4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6.Baird
7. Leavy
8. Doris

^^ I want to start see this pack , its the only one in the near future i see beating England

Such blue bias... Kelleher cant start if he cant get some of the basics of his position right. Baird isnt and cant play backrow if he is primarily played in the second row. Doris might be the future but O Mahony showed today while he has to be involved.

AbusesToilets · 21-11-2020 6:32pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Our pack is where the most troubling issues lie....we are now routinely getting absolutely dominated by England to the point where is looks like a childs team facing a mens team

We didn't get smashed today, that's what's so frustrating. We fronted up well, and regularly made strong carries over the gainline. We completely stuffed their maul, at least twice winning turnovers on the tryline. We didn't get mullered in the scrum, in contrast to Leinster vs Saracens and previous outings vs England recently.

Our lineout misfired, which was not all on Kelleher. At least two of those failures was an English jumper dislodging the ball from an Irish jumper. This has been a persistent systems error, and pretty inexplicable

Our use of forwards in attack is still frustratingly basic. Too many static carries into double tackles. No one is going to look good doing that. We have players who can offload, need to take advantage of that. We need to create opportunities for attacking flow. Get Doris making a half break, and passing out of a tackle to Stander or a back. Get Stander on a hard line, a la his try against England a few years back.

Clegg · 21-11-2020 6:33pm

bilston wrote: »

Agree he absolutely shouldn't be written off...but in a way you've also explained why he shouldn't be starting for Ireland right now. He seems destined to be the long term answer at hooker, but right now, Id have Herring starting with Kelleher getting plenty of exposure off the bench. Nevertheless he will learn from days like today and be better for it.

Don't have a problem with Kelleher not starting. It's writing him off entirely which is objectionable. And it's not like our problems at the lineout will be sorted if we change hooker either. We've had the same issues with Herring and Scannell previously. And Best before he retired too.

kingofthekong · 21-11-2020 6:34pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Such blue bias... Kelleher cant start if he cant get some of the basics of his position right. Baird isnt and cant play backrow if he is primarily played in the second row. Doris might be the future but O Mahony showed today while he has to be involved.

Bias toward the best pack in Ireland? Nah your red bias keeping O’mahony in a team whilst being so dominated by curry and Underhill

The Lost Sheep · 21-11-2020 6:37pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Bias toward the best pack in Ireland? Nah your red bias keeping O’mahony in a team whilst being so dominated by curry and Underhill

Doris wasnt great either. Ryan was poor. For all talk of him being world class etc he was totally underwhelming today. There was one top top class second row on show today and he certainly wasnt in green.
O Mahony is far from the problem and if you were to criticise any of the munster men today in the pack it was stander.

the baby bull elephant · 21-11-2020 6:39pm

Think Easterby’s position has to be seriously looked at.

Paul Weller · 21-11-2020 6:39pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

1. Healy
2. Kelleher
3. Furlong
4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6.Baird
7. Leavy
8. Doris

^^ I want to start see this pack , its the only one in the near future i see beating England

Rediculous

Clegg · 21-11-2020 6:41pm

The maul was an issue was well. The times when we actually secured our own lineout we didn't seem able to make headway with our drive.

salmocab · 21-11-2020 6:48pm

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

Think Easterby’s position has to be seriously looked at.

Yeah I’d agree with this.

kingofthekong · 21-11-2020 6:50pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Doris wasnt great either. Ryan was poor. For all talk of him being world class etc he was totally underwhelming today. There was one top top class second row on show today and he certainly wasnt in green.
O Mahony is far from the problem and if you were to criticise any of the munster men today in the pack it was stander.

Doris was literally a one man job trying to carry into the entire English pack by himself - offered himself on every occasion for the impossible task of the hard yards into the England pack -

He also got just as many turn overs as O’mahony and that’s supposed to be O’mahony’s usp
He carried more and was equally as effective as O’mahony on their deck.

Stander wasn’t even on the pitch - that’s why Baird is getting in for him, hopefully gets minutes against Georgia.

Ryan showed far more fight then anyone in the back today despite some poor errors there’s absolutely no chance Ryan doesn’t start

kingofthekong · 21-11-2020 6:51pm

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

Think Easterby’s position has to be seriously looked at.

Yep definitely

Akrasia · 21-11-2020 6:57pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

1. Healy
2. Kelleher
3. Furlong
4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6.Baird
7. Leavy
8. Doris

^^ I want to start see this pack , its the only one in the near future i see beating England

Furlong is injured, has not returned from injury and even before he got injured he was playing well below his potential

Henderson has just returned from long term injury and hasn't had any performances recently to indicate that he is back at his peak form

Leavy won MOTM last weekend in his first start since returning from long term injury (against poor opposition)

James Ryan is not performing at the level he set for himself last year, or even at a level high enough to say he should be a guaranteed starter at the moment.

It looks like your dream pack is based on a healthy dose of nostalgia rather than picking players who are in good form... Isn't that what everyone criticises the Irish Management team for doing?

We have 2 more games in this autumn series, one against Georgia, and one against Scotland (more than likely) or possiby France

Who would you pick for these games numbers 1 to 8?

I personally think we should play a really experimental team against Georgia. Let the fringe players put their hand up for selection. If they do not rise to the challenge, then we need to bring in a lot of much younger players into the international camps prior to the 6 nations next year

Gavin Coombes, The two Wicherleys, Jack O Donoghue, Ben Healey, Craig Casey are just a few Munster players who have already show that they are likely to be future stars in the sport. (injuries aside) and there are plenty of players of this calibre in Leinster Ulster and Connacht's set up who we can blood and put them on the road towards being Ireland's next generation of grand slam winning rugby players.

salmocab · 21-11-2020 7:00pm

I’m not sure I’d be picking many scapegoats on the team. There’s various issues and I’m not sure too many individuals are to blame JGP or Keenan not as bad as I seen some claim. Byrne who I like isn’t the solution but I’m not sure we have a solution to replace Sexton.
England’s line speed in defence was great and our lineout was poor. We’re not setup great yet and whilst I think we could get it right from here something off the pitch isn’t right.

The Lost Sheep · 21-11-2020 7:01pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Doris was literally a one man job trying to carry into the entire English pack by himself - offered himself on every occasion for the impossible task of the hard yards into the England pack -

He also got just as many turn overs as O’mahony and that’s supposed to be O’mahony’s usp
He carried more and was equally as effective as O’mahony on their deck.

Stander wasn’t even on the pitch - that’s why Baird is getting in for him, hopefully gets minutes against Georgia.

Ryan showed far more fight then anyone in the back today despite some poor errors there’s absolutely no chance Ryan doesn’t start

I never said Ryan shouldnt start. I just think he was poor. For all talk of him being world class. He isnt near that. He has a fantastic engine but he was leading a terrible lineout. His calling was terrible. Stander wasnt fantastic but Baird isnt a back row option at international level.
Leavy is barely back from a very long term injury. No reason at all to just shove him straight back to international level on basis of 2 hours of rugby.

Burkie1203 · 21-11-2020 7:02pm

Think/hope we will see a few call ups as Europe starts straught after the NC playoffs

EOS Heffernan Bealham Dillane Henderson (c) Beirne Connors Stander

Marmion Burns Stockdale McCloskey Farrell Earls Conway

Bench - Herring Byrne Ryan Baird POM/Doris Murray Sexton Keenan

kingofthekong · 21-11-2020 7:03pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Furlong is injured, has not returned from injury and even before he got injured he was playing well below his potential

Henderson has just returned from long term injury and hasn't had any performances recently to indicate that he is back at his peak form

Leavy won MOTM last weekend in his first start since returning from long term injury (against poor opposition)

James Ryan is not performing at the level he set for himself last year, or even at a level high enough to say he should be a guaranteed starter at the moment.

It looks like your dream pack is based on a healthy dose of nostalgia rather than picking players who are in good form... Isn't that what everyone criticises the Irish Management team for doing?

We have 2 more games in this autumn series, one against Georgia, and one against Scotland (more than likely) or possiby France

Who would you pick for these games numbers 1 to 8?

I personally think we should play a really experimental team against Georgia. Let the fringe players put their hand up for selection. If they do not rise to the challenge, then we need to bring in a lot of much younger players into the international camps prior to the 6 nations next year

Gavin Coombes, The two Wicherleys, Jack O Donoghue, Ben Healey, Craig Casey are just a few Munster players who have already show that they are likely to be future stars in the sport. (injuries aside) and there are plenty of players of this calibre in Leinster Ulster and Connacht's set up who we can blood and put them on the road towards being Ireland's next generation of grand slam winning rugby players.

oh thank god for Mensa here to point out the injuries....of course they werent available for selection today well done for the astute observation

This is my injury free team to face them in the 6 nations,

Guys I would look at bringing in for Georgia would be:

Penny, Coombes, Leavy, Baird - would've said Hodnett but injury, O'toole if he goes well on Sunday, Eric O'sullivan

Not all of them at once but blend them in

Was specifically talking about forwards but for the backs i'd also like to see some of : Daly, JOB, H.Byrne, Casey, Marmion, Lytlle

Clegg · 21-11-2020 7:10pm

Funnily enough I've not been too disappointed in our defeats to France or England. I've seen enough to think that we're going in the right direction. Our forwards generally matched up well to either pack. I'm not left with the hollow feeling of any post 2018 Schmidt performance.

Our big problem is now about how we convert pressure into points. We made a mess of things against France and England. 5 metre lineouts not going to hand, turning the ball over on the opposition's line and even just not going for the posts. There's plenty of effort going in, but not enough results.

kingofthekong · 21-11-2020 7:11pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I never said Ryan shouldnt start. I just think he was poor. For all talk of him being world class. He isnt near that. He has a fantastic engine but he was leading a terrible lineout. His calling was terrible. Stander wasnt fantastic but Baird isnt a back row option at international level.
Leavy is barely back from a very long term injury. No reason at all to just shove him straight back to international level on basis of 2 hours of rugby.

Ryan was probably the only player to make it over the gainline on multiple occasions for ireland today, to say he isnt worldclass is laughable, POM would be in your irish team for the next 10 years if you got your way,

Leavy is our best 7 ...we all know this its not even a debate, get him in

Itoje and Lawes have both been used at 6 in international rugby and so should we with Baird especially when trying to complete with teams like England until we have another serious threat on the deck that we could put there

Clegg · 21-11-2020 7:23pm

Our defence must also be questioned, specifically when we lose the ball. France and England have scored trys against us from deep within their own half after we've gifted them possession. Yes, they have gifted backs who can score from anywhere, but on both occasions our defence has been rubbish. Chris Farrell missed a fairly standard one on one with May inside England's 22 for instance.

bilston · 21-11-2020 7:35pm

Paul Weller wrote: »

Rediculous

Bluediculous?

Paul Weller · 21-11-2020 7:39pm

bilston wrote: »

Bluediculous?

Smurftastic!

If Kelleher starts a 6n game I'll be disappointed

21-11-2020 7:41pm

Clegg wrote: »

Our defence must also be questioned, specifically when we lose the ball. France and England have scored trys against us from deep within their own half after we've gifted them possession. Yes, they have gifted backs who can score from anywhere, but on both occasions our defence has been rubbish. Chris Farrell missed a fairly standard one on one with May inside England's 22 for instance.

It wasn't that standard for Farrell - May is outrageously fast and Farrell got his footing ever so slightly wrong.

Most pivotal moment in the game though.

kingofthekong · 21-11-2020 7:47pm

Paul Weller wrote: »

Smurftastic!

If Kelleher starts a 6n game I'll be disappointed

Leinstertainment **

Prepare to be disappointed x

OldRio · 21-11-2020 7:57pm

Clegg wrote: »

Funnily enough I've not been too disappointed in our defeats to France or England. I've seen enough to think that we're going in the right direction. Our forwards generally matched up well to either pack. I'm not left with the hollow feeling of any post 2018 Schmidt performance.

Our big problem is now about how we convert pressure into points. We made a mess of things against France and England. 5 metre lineouts not going to hand, turning the ball over on the opposition's line and even just not going for the posts. There's plenty of effort going in, but not enough results.

Can I just thank this again. Clarity in a fog of disappointment.

UAEguy2020 · 21-11-2020 7:59pm

Clegg wrote: »

Funnily enough I've not been too disappointed in our defeats to France or England. I've seen enough to think that we're going in the right direction. Our forwards generally matched up well to either pack. I'm not left with the hollow feeling of any post 2018 Schmidt performance.

Our big problem is now about how we convert pressure into points. We made a mess of things against France and England. 5 metre lineouts not going to hand, turning the ball over on the opposition's line and even just not going for the posts. There's plenty of effort going in, but not enough results.

Completly agree.

Cant even begin to talk of the depression there was after that 57-14 performance last year for example :O

Some Yoke · 21-11-2020 8:00pm

I think porter to loose head, furlong back, leavy back after a few more games of getting up to speed, line out issues resolved through change of personnel or tactics and our forwards aren't in too bad of a place, Healy can still do a job off the bench. Ryan just having a dip in form after ages of being remarkably consistent, it will pass.

The Lost Sheep · 21-11-2020 8:02pm

Some Yoke wrote: »

I think porter to loose head, furlong back, leavy back after a few more games of getting up to speed, line out issues resolved through change of personnel or tactics and our forwards aren't in too bad of a place, Healy can still do a job off the bench. Ryan just having a dip in form after ages of being remarkably consistent, it will pass.

Porter isnt going back as a loosehead. Why would he?
Furlong mightnt be back for while yet. Leavy needs a fair few more games considering he was out as long as he was.

UAEguy2020 · 21-11-2020 8:03pm

I thought Esterby is now the defence coach?

shootermacg · 21-11-2020 9:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It wasn't that standard for Farrell - May is outrageously fast and Farrell got his footing ever so slightly wrong.

Most pivotal moment in the game though.

If you look back Aki did him zero favors there, his spacing was all wrong.

shootermacg · 21-11-2020 9:11pm

Some Yoke wrote: »

I think porter to loose head, furlong back, leavy back after a few more games of getting up to speed, line out issues resolved through change of personnel or tactics and our forwards aren't in too bad of a place, Healy can still do a job off the bench. Ryan just having a dip in form after ages of being remarkably consistent, it will pass.

I was of the same opinion, definitely with Furlong back and in form I'd go that way. But I also can't deny that with time as starting tight-head he's become as good in the scrum and I don't know any other tight-head that can go 80 with that much intensity.

He's basically a phenom at this stage and should be cherished. He's possibly Ireland's best player and without a doubt Ireland's most important one.

kingofthekong · 21-11-2020 9:14pm

Where do you find stats on dominant tackle stats, gainline successes, metres made etc

The Lost Sheep · 21-11-2020 9:17pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Where do you find stats on dominant tackle stats, gainline successes, metres made etc

Look at ESPN for metres etc. Wont list dominant tackle stats. Not many sites do.

shootermacg · 21-11-2020 9:18pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Where do you find stats on dominant tackle stats, gainline successes, metres made etc

Ah shur just make up your own

bilston · 21-11-2020 9:20pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Where do you find stats on dominant tackle stats, gainline successes, metres made etc

ESPN normally do them...in saying that I haven't been able to find them for the Autmns Nations Cup

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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