National Broadband Plan or Starlink

heavydawson · 10-02-2021 6:27pm

screamer wrote: »

Im just under the 53 degrees so it’ll work.
I’m very tempted although in the village we have high speed broadband available, the incompetence of the installers means that we tried to get it installed in the past and they couldn’t navigate our old house and it’s thick walls. Price is really irrelevant when u need stable reliable broadband for work.

How thick are the walls? Is there an existing phone line coming into the house?

screamer · 10-02-2021 7:34pm

We have an existing m and mrmce c

listermint · 10-02-2021 10:13pm

screamer wrote: »

We have an existing m and mrmce c

Come again.

10-02-2021 10:38pm

screamer wrote: »

Im just under the 53 degrees so it’ll work.
I’m very tempted although in the village we have high speed broadband available, the incompetence of the installers means that we tried to get it installed in the past and they couldn’t navigate our old house and it’s thick walls. Price is really irrelevant when u need stable reliable broadband for work.

What do you mean by high speed? Imagine wireless?

celtic_oz · 11-02-2021 12:06am

ordered!

plodder · 23-02-2021 9:24am

Elon Musk satellites to beam high-speed broadband to Kerry valley

Rows Grower · 23-02-2021 11:48am

plodder wrote: »

Elon Musk satellites to beam high-speed broadband to Kerry valley

What a legend of a man!

Atomic Pineapple · 23-02-2021 12:09pm

I was about to pull the trigger, but what is the story with the 53 degrees? My address shows up as one I can order the hardware to. Assuming that by the time I actually get it that there will be coverage?

plodder · 23-02-2021 1:27pm

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

I was about to pull the trigger, but what is the story with the 53 degrees? My address shows up as one I can order the hardware to. Assuming that by the time I actually get it that there will be coverage?

If you put random locations in the dates do vary or in some cases, it comes back saying no planned date yet. So it appears if it gives you a date, then that is the estimate of when they will have coverage at that location.

heavydawson · 23-02-2021 2:32pm

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1363763858121256963

Messer1 · 10-03-2021 12:30pm

SpaceX has announced that its beta Starlink is becoming available in parts of Northern Ireland https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/m1stnn/uk_service_expansion_live/

This could be good news for those facing a lengthy wait for the National Broadband Plan. Adds weight to a report "Plan B for NBP" which I recently updated and circulated to Government etc.
Summary: http://bit.ly/PlanB_for_NBP_ExSum
Full plan: http://bit.ly/PlanB_for_NBP

NewClareman · 10-03-2021 4:30pm

Messer1 wrote: »

SpaceX has announced that its beta Starlink is becoming available in parts of Northern Ireland https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/m1stnn/uk_service_expansion_live/

This could be good news for those facing a lengthy wait for the National Broadband Plan. Adds weight to a report "Plan B for NBP" which I recently updated and circulated to Government etc.
Summary: http://bit.ly/PlanB_for_NBP_ExSum
Full plan: http://bit.ly/PlanB_for_NBP

What you have written makes sense, and in line with my own thinking. I am absolutely certain that there is a role for Starlink, in Ireland, for providing broadband to specific sites. However, without having visibility of the contract details for the NBP, it is hard to know what difference any of this makes to the cost to the state.

heavydawson · 10-03-2021 5:34pm

Messer1 wrote: »

SpaceX has announced that its beta Starlink is becoming available in parts of Northern Ireland https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/m1stnn/uk_service_expansion_live/

This could be good news for those facing a lengthy wait for the National Broadband Plan. Adds weight to a report "Plan B for NBP" which I recently updated and circulated to Government etc.
Summary: http://bit.ly/PlanB_for_NBP_ExSum
Full plan: http://bit.ly/PlanB_for_NBP

Are you proposing that the government _subsidise_ the cost of individual users connecting to satellite broadband services until NBP is in their area? Or are you suggesting that the NBP rollout be curtailed because everyone can get LEO internet?

There's nothing stopping people waiting for NBP to order Starlink as soon as it's available. The major downside I see is the price.
In the UK, you're looking at £439 for the initial cost and a further £84 a month for 150-300mbps
vs
€55/month for 500mbps NBP

As soon as NBP fibre is available to a Starlink customer for ~€30 month less, it's a no-brainer to go with NBP unless the price differential drops significantly.

Orebro · 10-03-2021 9:10pm

Messer1 wrote: »

SpaceX has announced that its beta Starlink is becoming available in parts of Northern Ireland https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/m1stnn/uk_service_expansion_live/

This could be good news for those facing a lengthy wait for the National Broadband Plan. Adds weight to a report "Plan B for NBP" which I recently updated and circulated to Government etc.
Summary: http://bit.ly/PlanB_for_NBP_ExSum
Full plan: http://bit.ly/PlanB_for_NBP

Dear Brian Flanagan,

No thanks.

Yours etc,
Rural Ireland

celticbhoy27 · 11-03-2021 1:28am

Looking at few threads on reddit etc. To be fair it actually looks like a game changer for people in rural areas. It's a pity its more or less coinciding with the nbp. I'm tempted to get it for a couple of years tbh. 300mbps is pretty sweet while i wait to be connected

Orebro · 11-03-2021 10:20am

celticbhoy27 wrote: »

Looking at few threads on reddit etc. To be fair it actually looks like a game changer for people in rural areas. It's a pity its more or less coinciding with the nbp. I'm tempted to get it for a couple of years tbh. 300mbps is pretty sweet while i wait to be connected

This is the point. Go and order it if you want it, it will absolutely fill the gap before you get FTTH. But as a replacement for FTTH like Messer1/Brian Flanagan is suggesting? - no thanks!!

Messer1 · 11-03-2021 10:20am

heavydawson wrote: »

Are you proposing that the government _subsidise_ the cost of individual users connecting to satellite broadband services until NBP is in their area? Or are you suggesting that the NBP rollout be curtailed because everyone can get LEO internet?

There's nothing stopping people waiting for NBP to order Starlink as soon as it's available. The major downside I see is the price.
In the UK, you're looking at £439 for the initial cost and a further £84 a month for 150-300mbps
vs
€55/month for 500mbps NBP

As soon as NBP fibre is available to a Starlink customer for ~€30 month less, it's a no-brainer to go with NBP unless the price differential drops significantly.

All options should be considered. By the time the NBP has finished laying fibre, there could be 3 LEO broadband operators competing with 2nd or 3rd gen systems. A subsidy would be problematic but I understand it is being considered in Germany for rural users.

Yes, price is a downside but some people can't stay "broadband-poor" for years waiting for their superduper 500 mbps.

Orebro · 11-03-2021 10:22am

Messer1 wrote: »

All options should be considered. By the time the NBP has finished laying fibre, there could be 3 LEO broadband operators competing with 2nd or 3rd gen systems. A subsidy would be problematic but I understand it is being considered in Germany for rural users.

Yes, price is a downside but some people can't stay "broadband-poor" for years waiting for their superduper 500 mbps.

People can order it for themselves if they like - no need for Government intervention.

I'm glad there was enough noise from people on here and the general public that the FTTH project is going on full steam ahead. Nobody in power is going to try and stop that now thank goodness.

Messer1 · 11-03-2021 10:30am

NewClareman wrote: »

What you have written makes sense, and in line with my own thinking. I am absolutely certain that there is a role for Starlink, in Ireland, for providing broadband to specific sites. However, without having visibility of the contract details for the NBP, it is hard to know what difference any of this makes to the cost to the state.

My back of envelope suggests that at a conservative €2 bn capex to pass 540k premises, the cost per premises passed is about €3.7k and if, in medium term 50% take up the NBP service, the cost per user jumps to €7.5k.
PS My envelope never refuses ink!!

Messer1 · 11-03-2021 10:37am

Orebro wrote: »

People can order it for themselves if they like - no need for Government intervention.

I'm glad there was enough noise from people on here and the general public that the FTTH project is going on full steam ahead. Nobody in power is going to try and stop that now thank goodness.

I certainly don't advocate stopping the NBP. The provision of good quality broadband to rural areas should be accelerated, not slowed. This could be achieved by Starlink especially in areas which are unlikely to get fibre for years. When fibre arrives in these areas, users can decide whether to stick or switch.

Messer1 · 11-03-2021 10:42am

Orebro wrote: »

This is the point. Go and order it if you want it, it will absolutely fill the gap before you get FTTH. But as a replacement for FTTH like Messer1/Brian Flanagan is suggesting? - no thanks!!

I am NOT advocating for Starlink to replace FTTH.

Orebro · 11-03-2021 10:44am

Messer1 wrote: »

I certainly don't advocate stopping the NBP. The provision of good quality broadband to rural areas should be accelerated, not slowed. This could be achieved by Starlink especially in areas which are unlikely to get fibre for years. When fibre arrives in these areas, users can decide whether to stick or switch.

I'm not sure what the problem is then, or why this requires government intervention - if the Starlink service is there as a commercial company what's the problem exactly? Can't people just go and order it themselves?

heavydawson · 11-03-2021 11:15am

Messer1 wrote: »

My back of envelope suggests that at a conservative €2 bn capex to pass 540k premises, the cost per premises passed is about €3.7k and if, in medium term 50% take up the NBP service, the cost per user jumps to €7.5k.
PS My envelope never refuses ink!!

To be fair to you Messer1, you're not the hardliner many might have you believe :-)
I went through your proposal, and as detailed as it is (comprehensive isn't the word!), the final section reads akin to "NBP, but Starlink!"
It's not clear what you're proposing the government do? I think you could flesh it out a little. You've clearly put some thought into the economics and timeframe, but you've said yourself here that you're not advocating for curtailing NBP, and not necessarily subsidising Starlink either.

You could for example suggest that the government incorporates some degree of promotion/awareness of LEO services as part of the NBP rollout along the lines of:
"Fibre won't be in your area for X years, but while you're waiting you may want to consider...."

I think Starlink is high awareness in the likes of the boards community of users, but I don't think a lot of non-tech folks are aware of its existence.

I very much doubt the government could promote Starlink exclusively (favouritism).

Unless you can fine-tune your proposal you'll have the same political idiocy of "5G can do it all" being spouted by on the airwaves again.

People on the long-tail of the NBP should be made aware of alternatives available while they wait......and to me that's the direction the government could take with your proposal.....but I'd suggest you focus on that use-case.

The Cush · 11-03-2021 11:20am

Messer1 wrote: »

My back of envelope suggests that at a conservative €2 bn capex to pass 540k premises, the cost per premises passed is about €3.7k and if, in medium term 50% take up the NBP service, the cost per user jumps to €7.5k.

Not forgetting that the connection part of the NBP subsidy isn't paid for those premises that don't connect, that can be up to €5,000 per premises.

Orebro · 11-03-2021 11:22am

Isn't that up to Starlink though to make people aware of their service? I'm sure they'll have a good marketing department etc. And if people are very stuck then they'll find this service if it works for them. It's hardly something the government should be getting involved in - Elon Musk has deep enough pockets to put on a few TV and newspaper ads.

I'm really not sure what Messer1's point is at all.

Messer1 · 11-03-2021 12:34pm

heavydawson wrote: »

To be fair to you Messer1, you're not the hardliner many might have you believe :-)
I went through your proposal, and as detailed as it is (comprehensive isn't the word!), the final section reads akin to "NBP, but Starlink!"
It's not clear what you're proposing the government do? I think you could flesh it out a little. You've clearly put some thought into the economics and timeframe, but you've said yourself here that you're not advocating for curtailing NBP, and not necessarily subsidising Starlink either.

You could for example suggest that the government incorporates some degree of promotion/awareness of LEO services as part of the NBP rollout along the lines of:
"Fibre won't be in your area for X years, but while you're waiting you may want to consider...."

I think Starlink is high awareness in the likes of the boards community of users, but I don't think a lot of non-tech folks are aware of its existence.

I very much doubt the government could promote Starlink exclusively (favouritism).

Unless you can fine-tune your proposal you'll have the same political idiocy of "5G can do it all" being spouted by on the airwaves again.

People on the long-tail of the NBP should be made aware of alternatives available while they wait......and to me that's the direction the government could take with your proposal.....but I'd suggest you focus on that use-case.

Thanks for taking the time to read Plan B for NBP. I agree with (almost) all you have said. I felt that my role was to get the potential of LEO broadband onto the table of decision makers rather than to advocate specific solutions (which invariably would be wrong/unsuitable/etc).

My sole recommendation was that "the Government should immediately review the NBP, notwithstanding contractual and strategic commitments, and actively encourage and support the provision of high-speed broadband via low-Earth orbit satellites to premises within the Intervention Area especially where the NBP’s incremental capital expenditures and waiting times for service are likely to be significant".

I do touch on the idea of a subsidy towards cost of users' antennas in a footnote but it wasn't a recommendation because it would be so complicated to apply equitably/legally.

As a general point, I think that Starlink should grow organically in line with the launch cadence for its satellites so that a satisfactory performance and user experience can be sustained. As a result, word of mouth will build its user base. We must remember that only about 10% of sats for its service have been launched to date.

Orebro · 11-03-2021 12:59pm

Messer1 wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time to read Plan B for NBP. I agree with (almost) all you have said. I felt that my role was to get the potential of LEO broadband onto the table of decision makers rather than to advocate specific solutions (which invariably would be wrong/unsuitable/etc).

LEO broadband was mentioned many times by Gov ministers, well before the NBP contract was signed, but was rightly deemed not to be a solution to our broadband issues. If a commercial entity has a solution then that's great, but it's up to them to create awareness of it - nothing to do with Government.

I really don't get your point (I've read your docs).

joe123 · 11-03-2021 1:51pm

Messer1 wrote: »

My sole recommendation was that "the Government should immediately review the NBP, notwithstanding contractual and strategic commitments, and actively encourage and support the provision of high-speed broadband via low-Earth orbit satellites to premises within the Intervention Area especially where the NBP’s incremental capital expenditures and waiting times for service are likely to be significant".

What do you deem significant?

The doc you put together is detailed, but I cant help feel the TLDR is rural homes should only be given Starlink not Fibre. A tech that is still in its infancy.

NBI have stated that there will be a small percentage where FTTH just wont be feasible so they will look at other avenues to provide service, so sure, Starlink here would definitely be a good choice. But thats the 1%.

Outside of that, all effort and focus should be on acceleration of the FTTH rollout. Things like this just delay progress.

And this goes back to, anyone waiting for FTTH are free to look at alternatives in the meantime. This is up to the individual to research and Starlink as a company to advertise.

Musk has already mentioned a few times now that Starlink is not for the everyday consumer but for those extreme rural locations, of which you'll see a lot more of in bigger countries.

We know two things: Fibre is the gold standard that is future proof with work already underway in Ireland.

Starlink - As promising as initial tests are, we dont even know how it will fair in Ireland never mind when thousands more users start coming online with it. Not to mention its crazy expensive at the minute.

Orebro · 11-03-2021 2:26pm

What also needs to be put to bed right now is that the NBP would and should go ahead regardless of Starlink - there’s a few out there that think the Gov missed a trick in that Starlink came along and somehow the FTTH rollout is now defunct - nothing could be further from the truth.

I think all Brian Flanagan is doing here is muddying the waters.

Messer1 · 11-03-2021 2:45pm

joe123 wrote: »

What do you deem significant?

The doc you put together is detailed, but I cant help feel the TLDR is rural homes should only be given Starlink not Fibre. A tech that is still in its infancy.

NBI have stated that there will be a small percentage where FTTH just wont be feasible so they will look at other avenues to provide service, so sure, Starlink here would definitely be a good choice. But thats the 1%.

Outside of that, all effort and focus should be on acceleration of the FTTH rollout. Things like this just delay progress.

And this goes back to, anyone waiting for FTTH are free to look at alternatives in the meantime. This is up to the individual to research and Starlink as a company to advertise.

Musk has already mentioned a few times now that Starlink is not for the everyday consumer but for those extreme rural locations, of which you'll see a lot more of in bigger countries.

We know two things: Fibre is the gold standard that is future proof with work already underway in Ireland.

Starlink - As promising as initial tests are, we dont even know how it will fair in Ireland never mind when thousands more users start coming online with it. Not to mention its crazy expensive at the minute.

I'd say about 3 years would be very significant especially if, for example, you are trying to run a biz and/or have several school-going kids.

Starlink is aiming at underserved/unserved areas, not just extreme rural. Don't forget that there are also many homes within no/inferior BB outside the NBP's intervention area. Agree that it is expensive compared with other services but for some households it may be a price well worth paying - no one is forcing anyone to buy the service.

Fibre is certainly the gold standard at the moment and its deployment need not be delayed by the arrival of LEO BB which could be a solution for homes needing BB ASAP.

joe123 · 11-03-2021 3:25pm

Messer1 wrote: »

I'd say about 3 years would be very significant especially if, for example, you are trying to run a biz and/or have several school-going kids.

Starlink is aiming at underserved/unserved areas, not just extreme rural. Don't forget that there are also many homes within no/inferior BB outside the NBP's intervention area. Agree that it is expensive compared with other services but for some households it may be a price well worth paying - no one is forcing anyone to buy the service.

Fibre is certainly the gold standard at the moment and its deployment need not be delayed by the arrival of LEO BB which could be a solution for homes needing BB ASAP.

So doesn't that all come back to - if a user in the meantime wants to sign up to Starlink/alternatives they should.

The Government shouldn't be involved at all yet. I can only see it as a possibility at year 7 stage when they are looking at alternatives for that 1% they cant reach physically.

For me personally, Working from home in IT needing download/upload speeds, I am considering Starlink only because my area isnt likely to be touched until 2025. But I don't expect (or want) the government to get involved/sidetracked by other tech discussion.

Focus on accelerating the rollout and I'll be happy in the knowledge that in ~3/4 years il be serviced with FTTH.

listermint · 11-03-2021 5:43pm

joe123 wrote: »

So doesn't that all come back to - if a user in the meantime wants to sign up to Starlink/alternatives they should.

The Government shouldn't be involved at all yet. I can only see it as a possibility at year 7 stage when they are looking at alternatives for that 1% they cant reach physically.

For me personally, Working from home in IT needing download/upload speeds, I am considering Starlink only because my area isnt likely to be touched until 2025. But I don't expect (or want) the government to get involved/sidetracked by other tech discussion.

Focus on accelerating the rollout and I'll be happy in the knowledge that in ~3/4 years il be serviced with FTTH.

Definite plan by some to muddy waters, and open up conversations again. This sort of muddying the waters coupled with the price of starlink install and monthly would play right into WISP hands.

This muddying of waters and talking about government doing marketing for a private company is cynical and should be treated with as much skepticism as its being presented.

Orebro · 11-03-2021 6:03pm

Who knows what this guy is up to. The docs are just a summary of what LEO is, and some other fluff about Musk. Bit late in the day for this kind of nonsense anyway, and I doubt any TD is going to sit down and read it let alone actually do something about it.

heavydawson · 11-03-2021 6:18pm

Orebro wrote: »

Who knows what this guy is up to. The docs are just a summary of what LEO is, and some other fluff about Musk. Bit late in the day for this kind of nonsense anyway, and I doubt any TD is going to sit down and read it let alone actually do something about it.

A little bit of Googling will have you realise that he's not pushing some WISP agenda. He's simply an activist citizen (and has a good track record on other matters like NAMA), rightly questioning the costs of NBP and trying to keep alternatives in mind, even at this late stage. Yes, the docs are a summary, but if you're trying to convince people of something, you _should_ be providing the context. I agree it's late in the day, but as a pro-NBP member of the site, I'd still rather it not turn into a total echo chamber and we have other opinions (particularly those who do their homework) onboard.

NewClareman · 12-03-2021 1:28am

Messer1 wrote: »

I certainly don't advocate stopping the NBP. The provision of good quality broadband to rural areas should be accelerated, not slowed.

I agree.

Messer1 wrote: »

This could be achieved by Starlink especially in areas which are unlikely to get fibre for years. When fibre arrives in these areas, users can decide whether to stick or switch.

I would go further, why not incorporate Starlink into the solution for the NBP. I think it was a poor decision and/or poor advice to have the focus on an all fibre solution - this was always going to drive excessive cost. The tender should have specified the criteria to be met, and how conformance would be measured. This is what was done in the states with the Rural Digital Opportunity Fund. However, there were votes to consider...

As technology advances further options will arrive, equally as good, if not better, than Starlink. However, because of the manner in which it was handled by the then government, people are obsessed with getting fibre. It doesn't matter that alternative solutions might even offer an equally effective solution, maybe even more quickly.

To be clear, I am not against the NBP. What I am against is unnecessary state spending whether on fibre, health, or anything else. There will be a price to be paid for the ever increasing debt burden. I'm not concerned for myself, but very much so for my children and their generation.

(By the way, I know I am preaching to the converted.

)

listermint · 12-03-2021 11:21am

NewClareman wrote: »

I agree.

I would go further, why not incorporate Starlink into the solution for the NBP. I think it was a poor decision and/or poor advice to have the focus on an all fibre solution - this was always going to drive excessive cost. The tender should have specified the criteria to be met, and how conformance would be measured. This is what was done in the states with the Rural Digital Opportunity Fund. However, there were votes to consider...

As technology advances further options will arrive, equally as good, if not better, than Starlink. However, because of the manner in which it was handled by the then government, people are obsessed with getting fibre. It doesn't matter that alternative solutions might even offer an equally effective solution, maybe even more quickly.

To be clear, I am not against the NBP. What I am against is unnecessary state spending whether on fibre, health, or anything else. There will be a price to be paid for the ever increasing debt burden. I'm not concerned for myself, but very much so for my children and their generation.

(By the way, I know I am preaching to the converted. )

The Debt arguement and the price for this is at this stage utter nonsense, It wil pay for itself ten times over with economic activity and above all CHOICE. The advent of work from home has driven home that message. We should not be held back as we were in the past by technologies in their infancy at the time like the '3G wireless solution' etc etc. Anyone thinking they can cut corners and save money on plans of this scale is beyond saving.

They literally dont understand the investment and its advantages.

This is not about echo chamber its about people side tracking and muddling plans and you end up with a bastardized solution like Australia. And the US is an absolute poor example of infrastructure on any metric.

We should approach this more like a korea than an australia. We have a massive size advantage and the core worlds tech companies based here to boost its use.

No silly messing around anymore, Starlink is an impressive technology its has applications these are very true, Its also true that its a brand new system with ways to go and it has questionable scalability and weather reaction.

We took the most bullet proof sensible approach on the table and the government should be commended for sticking to it than listening to absolute nimby and Small thinkers.

Messer1 · 12-03-2021 11:47am

NewClareman wrote: »

I agree.

I would go further, why not incorporate Starlink into the solution for the NBP. I think it was a poor decision and/or poor advice to have the focus on an all fibre solution - this was always going to drive excessive cost. The tender should have specified the criteria to be met, and how conformance would be measured. This is what was done in the states with the Rural Digital Opportunity Fund. However, there were votes to consider...

As technology advances further options will arrive, equally as good, if not better, than Starlink. However, because of the manner in which it was handled by the then government, people are obsessed with getting fibre. It doesn't matter that alternative solutions might even offer an equally effective solution, maybe even more quickly.

To be clear, I am not against the NBP. What I am against is unnecessary state spending whether on fibre, health, or anything else. There will be a price to be paid for the ever increasing debt burden. I'm not concerned for myself, but very much so for my children and their generation.

(By the way, I know I am preaching to the converted. )

Lost of sound comment there. During 2019, I produced the first version of Plan B aimed at the Gov and Oireachtas Committee that was examining the NBP. It called for an independent expert to assess potential of LEO BB. The planners for NBP had no expertise in this and saw that the only alternative to fibre was G5. We definitely needed an NBP for rural Ireland but the structure adopted has been totally inappropriate.

Yes, LEO sat tech will grow and grow. For example, all Starlink sats launched after 2021 will provide for ISLL (inter-sat laser links). OneWeb will be using these from the outset and God only knows what Amazon have in mind. Also, the mid-20s *might* see the arrival of the EU's L€O (sic) service aimed at rural areas!! The arrival of reusable rocketry allied to big advances in electronics could (if properly managed by participants and regulators) create many new roles for LEO sats. There are also interesting things in mobile-LEO that need watching.

joe123 · 12-03-2021 12:03pm

Messer1 wrote: »

Lost of sound comment there. During 2019, I produced the first version of Plan B aimed at the Gov and Oireachtas Committee that was examining the NBP. It called for an independent expert to assess potential of LEO BB. The planners for NBP had no expertise in this and saw that the only alternative to fibre was G5. We definitely needed an NBP for rural Ireland but the structure adopted has been totally inappropriate.

Yes, LEO sat tech will grow and grow. For example, all Starlink sats launched after 2021 will provide for ISLL (inter-sat laser links). OneWeb will be using these from the outset and God only knows what Amazon have in mind. Also, the mid-20s *might* see the arrival of the EU's L€O (sic) service aimed at rural areas!! The arrival of reusable rocketry allied to big advances in electronics could (if properly managed by participants and regulators) create many new roles for LEO sats. There are also interesting things in mobile-LEO that need watching.

Alot of If's and Maybes and "watch this space" but at the risk of causing delays and faffing about impacting FTTH rollout. We already know what Fibre is capable of. And its good, really really good. With potential to get even better.

You also keep ignoring that Musk has already said its not for your everyday consumer, yet it seems like you are actively trying to push this as a solution for Jim and Bob up the road who are just out of reach of FTTH.

There is no comparison between rural Ireland and rural countries like the US. Rural Ireland isnt just the man that lives 3km up the side of a mountain.

Anyways again the fact is this tech is largely untested.

Im repeating myself but I can only see it being a possible solution for those that are in the 1% that NBI wont be able to reach and for now, its a possible solution while people wait for FTTH but its up to that user to research and Starlink as a company to advertise.

Honestly though it feels like its even pointless debating this. You come across as your mind is made up and you literally won't listen to anything else.

NewClareman · 12-03-2021 4:56pm

Messer1 wrote: »

Yes, LEO sat tech will grow and grow. For example, all Starlink sats launched after 2021 will provide for ISLL (inter-sat laser links). OneWeb will be using these from the outset and God only knows what Amazon have in mind. Also, the mid-20s *might* see the arrival of the EU's L€O (sic) service aimed at rural areas!! The arrival of reusable rocketry allied to big advances in electronics could (if properly managed by participants and regulators) create many new roles for LEO sats. There are also interesting things in mobile-LEO that need watching.

I'm certain that many new roles will be created for LEO satellites. Unfortunately, many of them may not be for the betterment of society.

To me, the work on the Inter-Satellite Laser Links is of immense importance, in its own right. There is significant crossover between Free Space Optics (FSO) for inter-satellite communication and FSO for terrestrial communication. FSO has long shown promise for terrestrial communications, but progress has been slow. I am aware of trials in India, China and Russia, but not of any live deployments in commercial networks.

However, the whole FSO area is now lit up, driven by the likes of Starlink and Amazon. There is a good chance that this focus, and allied research investment, will lead to viable terrestrial solutions. If so, that would be a game changer as big as LEOS's. It would support high capacity broadband, using ground-based cells, with FSO based backhaul from the tower. The problems they are solving for ISLL's should migrate to terrestrial solutions that can be deployed easily, without specialised technical expertise.

oscarBravo · 12-03-2021 7:51pm

FSO makes sense in space: there's no weather in space. It's unlikely to ever be a significant terrestrial player.

NewClareman · 15-03-2021 8:31pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

FSO makes sense in space: there's no weather in space. It's unlikely to ever be a significant terrestrial player.

Terrestrial FSO is already in play, with a greater market share than space FSO. Many of the weather related issues have been progressed, to the extent that FSO can now be considered a potential backhaul solution and is already a resilient fronthaul solution. One of the more difficult areas is atmospheric turbulence which effects both Terrestrial FSO and Satellite to Base Station FSO Links. Technologies such as machine learning and deep learning show promise, but require further research. Pointing error is another area where technologies being developed for LEOS links, could help terrestrial FSO development.

FSO is forecast to outpace space FSO, even as that market ramps up.
6034073

However, there are many elements to FSO and that graphic doesn't show is what elements of terrestrial FSO are in play. The graphic below, from markets and markets, show that Mobile Backhaul is a significant element.

6034073

celtic_oz · 20-03-2021 10:00pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVJHzqk85JA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpyTLhP2iu4

celtic_oz · 21-03-2021 7:58pm

Sorry to bombard the thread with video, but there are reports of speeds hitting 400mbs (UK user below )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PDicWV4qdc

joe123 · 22-03-2021 3:11am

There's also reports over on the reddit forum of people in the Uk of not hitting over 5Mb.

Promising though to hear better speeds.

listermint · 22-03-2021 12:09pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

Sorry to bombard the thread with video, but there are reports of speeds hitting 400mbs (UK user below )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PDicWV4qdc

I've reports of my imagine hitting 262mb, it's just not consistent.

celtic_oz · 29-04-2021 3:18pm

It's consistency is yet to be proven.

Much like an electric car company or a private rocket company 10 years ago.

listermint · 29-04-2021 4:48pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

It's consistency is yet to be proven.

Much like an electric car company or a private rocket company 10 years ago.

True but it's not a broadband company it's creating a network to support its electric vehicles and perhaps remote driving etc. The provision of internet to early customers merely allows that main goal to be in some part subsidized.

celtic_oz · 02-05-2021 9:03am

listermint wrote: »

True but it's not a broadband company .

Irrelevant

The starlink IPO is widely anticipated, and selling broadband will be its primary play.

Anyhow whats your point the Tesla car company now has a bustling power storage play which not its not its primary focus "Tesla’s TTM Energy Revenue Soared Beyond $2 Billion"
I'm sure those customers are not worried about Teslas cars, each product stands on its own and will be judged accordingly

Orebro · 14-05-2021 4:10pm

Bit of a reality check for those with high expectations for Starlink or those that are pushing it hard against NBP: https://www.theverge.com/22435030/starlink-satellite-internet-spacex-review

con747 · 14-05-2021 7:23pm

Not a reality check if your getting existing speeds of less than 3mbs download like me, plenty out there in the same situation would love speeds in excess of 20-30mbs never mind in the hundreds!

National Broadband Plan or Starlink

Comments