National Broadband Plan or Starlink

Charles Babbage

listermint wrote: »

No, enough trying to shill a sub par service in comparison to fibre.

Absolutely, we need fibre and as every premises in the country already had a line of poles going there we just need to get one with it.

No such thing as a stop gap

.

There is such a thing and stop gaps should not be dismissed, in my opinion.

NewClareman

theguzman wrote: »

I would see nothing wrong with it as a stop gap measure until fibre arrives in the meantime but with the contracts signed and the NBP heavily underway it is unlikely. Put in Starlink for a man in Donegal or West Cork etc. who won't get NBP FTTH until 2024. Subsidised Starlink would be a monopoly and Elon won't be giving access to the charlatan WISP's who will be hopping onto the NBI as a life-raft for their businesses once the penny drops for those reliant on WISPs across the country.

I don't see it happening either, though I believe it would be an excellent option. On a financial basis the cost of serving the 'long tails' is excessive and simply shouldn't be subsidised to that extent. Not when so many more pressing needs are being ignored, on cost grounds.

On a usability basis this obsession with fibre is not justified. I do get it, it is a credit to the product managers and marketing departments in the major providers. The reality is that the unlimited bandwidth of fibre is not available to consumers and may never be. This isn't an issue, for most consumers, either. The solutions being provided will easily meet their needs.

But!

If Starlink is successful the per cell capacity will also be more than sufficient to meet those needs. Maybe not in more populated regions, but for more remote rural sites in Ireland, most definitely yes.

theguzman

NewClareman wrote: »

I don't see it happening either, though I believe it would be an excellent option. On a financial basis the cost of serving the 'long tails' is excessive and simply shouldn't be subsidised to that extent. Not when so many more pressing needs are being ignored, on cost grounds.

On a usability basis this obsession with fibre is not justified. I do get it, it is a credit to the product managers and marketing departments in the major providers. The reality is that the unlimited bandwidth of fibre is not available to consumers and may never be. This isn't an issue, for most consumers, either. The solutions being provided will easily meet their needs.

But!

If Starlink is successful the per cell capacity will also be more than sufficient to meet those needs. Maybe not in more populated regions, but for rural sites in Ireland, most definitely yes.

One to three starlink satellites are what will be covering Ireland at any one time, until the project nears completion. Each bird will have a max of 20Gbit/s capacity per satellite and on a good time with multiple birds overhead you might have 3 sats or 60Gbit/s of capacity, this would be nowhere near able to supply the needs of rural dwellers in Ireland where you have 550k houses in a very fight geographic footprint.

Starlink are planning for 5 million houses in the lower 48 continental United states an area of 7.65million sq km. The Republic of Ireland is 70,000sq km or 84,000 sq km including NI for the island.

https://www.comparea.org/USA48+IRL

Starlink will thus be serving ten times less customers in the United States per sq. km than it would be in Ireland if the entire NBP was given to Starlink on a subsidy basis. We would also be competing with Western Wales and Northern Ireland, transatlantic Airliners, cruise and merchant shipping off shore due to our tight footprint.

The fact that Starlink will only have a small number of customers in Ireland should indicate it will be a success for those without any decent alternative. The price is expensive but in a way this is a good thing or else you would have idiots with perfect FTTH or vDSL availing of it and hogging bandwidth for rural dwellers who need it. You can imagine the facebook posts of some idiot in a housing estate showcasing their starlink dish and they boasting about saving €10/month etc despite having fibre available.

I know of a brand new housing estate built by the local Council as Social housing last year, admittedly those on social housing would be on a tight budget to begin with but literally within 3 months Ubiquiti antennas were up on nearly half of houses for the local Wisp for €30/month for 6mbps service. The same housing estate is cabled with Eir FTTH with gigabit available. Sometimes you can't argue with stupid really.

Eg. the Mobile networks across Dublin and the urban areas are often crawling due to people tethering a Gomo sim etc. because they can't/won't avail of terrestrial cable broadband usually due to the high price of Irish landline/cable/fibre offerings and the 12m contractual hamstring associated also.

The good thing we can see is light at the end of tunnel for the entire national mess of broadband between NBI fibre slowly creeping around the country and Starlink as a temporary measure now for those that can afford it. Those working at home will be able to file it as a tax expense or even get their employers to pay for it also if they have a nice job.

NewClareman

theguzman wrote: »

One to three starlink satellites are what will be covering Ireland at any one time, until the project nears completion. Each bird will have a max of 20Gbit/s capacity per satellite and on a good time with multiple birds overhead you might have 3 sats or 60Gbit/s of capacity, this would be nowhere near able to supply the needs of rural dwellers in Ireland where you have 550k houses in a very fight geographic footprint....

I never suggested that it would be a suitable alternative for most NBP candidates, only the more remote ones, that are the most expensive, and difficult, to service. That is the exact population being targeted by SpaceX.

I'm not sure where you get the figure of 1-3 satellites covering Ireland, at any one time. Even now up to five are illuminating parts of Ireland, at any one time. That will grow as more satellites are added to this orbital position. At any time much of this capacity is fully available to Ireland, as the remainder of the illumination is over the Atlantic. Because of this, your comparison of population density with the US does not equate to comparative capacity.

RichardL1951

Konnect ME are a satellite company offering free installation and monthly deals between €30 and €70/month. They say there are no download limits which were the main problem with satellite broadband.

The Cush

RichardL1951 wrote: »

Konnect ME are a satellite company offering free installation and monthly deals between €30 and €70/month. They say there are no download limits which were the main problem with satellite broadband.

Konnect is Eutelsat's recently launched satellite broadband offering from its new geostationary Konnect HTS satellite. A family member currently uses their previous offering from the nearby Ka-Sat since the summer due to WFH.

High latency is an issue for GEO sats vs LEO sats like Starlink. No downloads limits yes, but there is a monthly priority data allowance, from 20Gb to 120Gb depending on which package you're on. Once you consume that you're now sharing capacity with everyone else using that spotbeam.

The plus with this offering is free install and equipment, their previous costs were €117 install, €180 to buy equipment or €15 pm to rent, all plus VAT.

https://europe.konnect.com/en-IE

Newtown90

The Cush wrote: »

Konnect is Eutelsat's recently launched satellite broadband offering from its new geostationary Konnect HTS satellite. A family member currently uses their previous offering from the nearby Ka-Sat since the summer due to WFH.

High latency is an issue for GEO sats vs LEO sats like Starlink. No downloads limits yes, but there is a monthly priority data allowance, from 20Gb to 120Gb depending on which package you're on. Once you consume that you're now sharing capacity with everyone else using that spotbeam.

The plus with this offering is free install and equipment, their previous costs were €117 install, €180 to buy equipment or €15 pm to rent, all plus VAT.

https://europe.konnect.com/en-IE

Interested in giving something like this a go.

We've a cottage in North Kerry that we're struggling to get anything greater than 1mb at times, hard to WFH with that.

NewClareman

Newtown90 wrote: »

Interested in giving something like this a go.

We've a cottage in North Kerry that we're struggling to get anything greater than 1mb at times, hard to WFH with that.

If it were me I'd ask SpaceX to include me in their Beta trial. They have already started testing Starlink broadband in the UK and and one user Starlink beta tester in New Forest UK got a max/min speed of 186.7 Mbps and 31.7 Mbps, over a 24 hour period. There's lots of info about his setup at the link.

Starlink is charging UK customers £439 for the satellite dish and other communications equipment, as well as an £89 monthly fee and a £54 shipping fee.

Newtown90

NewClareman wrote: »

If it were me I'd ask SpaceX to include me in their Beta trial. They have already started testing Starlink broadband in the UK and and one user Starlink beta tester in New Forest UK got a max/min speed of 186.7 Mbps and 31.7 Mbps, over a 24 hour period. There's lots of info about his setup at the link.

Starlink is charging UK customers £439 for the satellite dish and other communications equipment, as well as an £89 monthly fee and a £54 shipping fee.

Ya I registered my interest Sunday. I'd happily pay if it worked.

celtic_oz

Newtown90 wrote: »

Interested in giving something like this a go.

We've a cottage in North Kerry that we're struggling to get anything greater than 1mb at times, hard to WFH with that.

Perfect example of someone who could use starlink until the NBP reaches them (which could be years) and get a usable internet connection.

Mind boggles how negative people are

its not as fast, its more expensive
when it rains it'll be sh1t
it a stupid stop gap

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

For a lot of people starlink could be an excellent solution while the NBP dawdles through its 7 year backlog

listermint

celtic_oz wrote: »

Perfect example of someone who could use starlink until the NBP reaches them (which could be years) and get a usable internet connection.

Mind boggles how negative people are

its not as fast, its more expensive
when it rains it'll be sh1t
it a stupid stop gap

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

For a lot of people starlink could be an excellent solution while the NBP dawdles through its 7 year backlog

I think you might be confused. There was and still is advocates on here saying it's a perfect replacement for NBP because the government wouldn't have to spend billions to bring Ireland into the next century .

It was an instead of argument which was made repeatedly poorly by individuals

brav

Newtown90 wrote: »

Interested in giving something like this a go.

We've a cottage in North Kerry that we're struggling to get anything greater than 1mb at times, hard to WFH with that.

Have tried any 4G or even 3G solutions?
Even if you get 1 bar of 3G or 4G on a phone you could get external aerial and get full bars.

In past few months I’ve set up 3 houses in Kerry for family members with outside aerials, on 4G they are getting averages of 40 to 50 Mbps download speed with Three and Vodafone. Once there is some mast in the vicinity your sorted

celtic_oz

listermint wrote: »

I think you might be confused. There was and still is advocates on here saying it's a perfect replacement for NBP because the government wouldn't have to spend billions to bring Ireland into the next century .

It was an instead of argument which was made repeatedly poorly by individuals

There is NO ONE saying "it's a perfect replacement for NBP because the government wouldn't have to spend billions to bring Ireland into the next century "

One or two are saying that it might be a good alternative for the last .001 % for whom laying fiber to would be stupid.

listermint

celtic_oz wrote: »

There is NO ONE saying "it's a perfect replacement for NBP because the government wouldn't have to spend billions to bring Ireland into the next century "

One or two are saying that it might be a good alternative for the last .001 % for whom laying fiber to would be stupid.

Your new to this forum, aren't you. ...... ..

celtic_oz

listermint wrote: »

Your new to this forum, aren't you. ...... ..

In this thread there is no-one advocating a wholesale replacement of the NBP with starlink, you can point to vague posts outside the thread if you want, but its off topic.

joe123

brav wrote: »

Have tried any 4G or even 3G solutions?
Even if you get 1 bar of 3G or 4G on a phone you could get external aerial and get full bars.

In past few months I’ve set up 3 houses in Kerry for family members with outside aerials, on 4G they are getting averages of 40 to 50 Mbps download speed with Three and Vodafone. Once there is some mast in the vicinity your sorted

How near would the mast have to be? I currently can get 15-20Mb on my phone using GOMO but only up til about 1pm. After that it drops significant down to about 3 or 4Mb for the rest of the day.

I've also heard most providers cap their LTE/4G to 10Mb so curious to see if this would be a viable solution while I wait for NBI fibre.

Newtown90

brav wrote: »

Have tried any 4G or even 3G solutions?
Even if you get 1 bar of 3G or 4G on a phone you could get external aerial and get full bars.

In past few months I’ve set up 3 houses in Kerry for family members with outside aerials, on 4G they are getting averages of 40 to 50 Mbps download speed with Three and Vodafone. Once there is some mast in the vicinity your sorted

Indeed we have vodafone 4g mobile broadband which was great until March 2020, get about 5mb during the day off it but when I'm trying to use it for video conferences with the states at night it's a nightmare down at 1mb or less.

I have recently purchased a rut240 and external aerial but haven't really had any success in improving reception or speeds.

Had 3 before that and it was poor in the area. The joys of being in the sticks!

The starlink or similar would be great as theres no chance of fibre coming my way anytime soon.

listermint

celtic_oz wrote: »

In this thread there is no-one advocating a wholesale replacement of the NBP with starlink, you can point to vague posts outside the thread if you want, but its off topic.

Ok da.

Il write that down.

celtic_oz

This guy says hes the first starlink in the UK : https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/ko0oem/its_arrived_1st_starlink_in_the_uk/

Had mine up and running since 27th in Devon too! Speeds avg about 150mbs

Not sure I believe that!

jdon72

joe123 wrote: »

How near would the mast have to be? I currently can get 15-20Mb on my phone using GOMO but only up til about 1pm. After that it drops significant down to about 3 or 4Mb for the rest of the day.

I've also heard most providers cap their LTE/4G to 10Mb so curious to see if this would be a viable solution while I wait for NBI fibre.

Only Vodafone cap their 4G to 10Mb/s - Three and Eir's networks have uncapped speeds

babelfish1990

celtic_oz wrote: »

This guy says hes the first starlink in the UK : https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/ko0oem/its_arrived_1st_starlink_in_the_uk/



Not sure I believe that!

Ofcom have already licenced Starlink in UK, and the first users are now getting service there. The Irish Govt may be holding back on licencing it here, because they won't want to undermine their huge spend on NBP? Starlink is not cheap, and as has been said it would never be a mass-market solution - but it does work and has been approved for the US version of NBP. It will be available to large parts of the globe during the current year. Prices for the antennas will likely drop with mass production, and when Amazon launch their competing service. I wonder if a terminal bought in Northern Ireland would work if moved down South? Perhaps it is geo-locked to location?

NewClareman

celtic_oz wrote: »

There is NO ONE saying "it's a perfect replacement for NBP because the government wouldn't have to spend billions to bring Ireland into the next century "

One or two are saying that it might be a good alternative for the last .001 % for whom laying fiber to would be stupid.

Maybe even a good alternative for the last 0.1%.

theguzman

NewClareman wrote: »

Maybe even a good alternative for the last 0.1%.

NBI or the Govt would need to subsidise it down to €40 - €45 a month which is emerging as the price of entry level NBI Fibre connection as quoted by Mayofibre and Atlantek who may be one and the same I am not sure. I wouldn't say no to Starlink for €45 per month .

https://atlantek.net/nbi/
https://mayofibre.ie/

The Cush

babelfish1990 wrote: »

The Irish Govt may be holding back on licencing it here, because they won't want to undermine their huge spend on NBP?

Already issued according to an article in The Currency (behind paywall)
I assume Comreg has issued the licence but they don't publish satellite licence details on their website.

What will Elon Musk’s Starlink mean for the world (and Ireland’s costly and long-awaited National Broadband Plan)?

The founder of Tesla and SpaceX is working on ambitious plans to bring fast and cheap broadband to the world – and he has just got an Irish licence. As the country prepares to invest billions in building broadband infrastructure, could there be another way?

24th Nov, 2020

It is starting. Nearly three years ago, in February 2018, the Elon Musk-founded rocket company SpaceX put two experimental satellites into orbit. The satellites were delivered aboard SpaceX’s Falcon 9 Full Thrust rocket – probably the most successful rocket in human history in terms of launch cadence and reliability. Most famously, the Falcon 9 was the first – and remains – the only rocket so far developed that can deliver payloads to orbit and subsequently land and then re-use its expensive first stage booster. The company, which had for years been successfully putting payloads into orbit on behalf of its…

https://thecurrency.news/articles/29957/what-will-elon-musks-starlink-mean-for-the-world-and-irelands-costly-and-long-awaited-national-broadband-plan/

NewClareman

theguzman wrote: »

NBI or the Govt would need to subsidise it down to €40 - €45 a month which is emerging as the price of entry level NBI Fibre connection as quoted by Mayofibre and Atlantek who may be one and the same I am not sure. I wouldn't say no to Starlink for €45 per month .

https://atlantek.net/nbi/
https://mayofibre.ie/

Exactly, why not. Not for most premises, but for those where installation cost is prohibitive.

brav

jdon72 wrote: »

Only Vodafone cap their 4G to 10Mb/s - Three and Eir's networks have uncapped speeds

Vodafone don’t cap speed normally, but I would see that their fluctuates the most on the mast I’m on, but a mast that I know 2 other family members are on is stable enough,
I’m 5k from a VF one, during day I get 70Mbps down, but say at 9pm that often drops to 10Mbps.

However the other mast about 7/8 Km away I get about 40Mbps during day and 20Mbps at peak times.

On the mast near me, Three would have best consistency prob due to lack of users but not as fast as Vodafone, usually 50Mbps at day and 30Mbps at peak

Maybe talking about this is derailing this thread slightly, but for those working from home and NBP still a bit away, no point paying Eir or whatever for 1Mbps when for cheaper you might get a local WISP or roll your own with 4G(personally I find the external modems like MikroTik LHG LTE6 the best for cases where you are more than 4/5k from mast)

brav

I have 2 connections currently one my own and one paid by work, one is VF and one is Three.
The speedtest results below, the VF one is on its own, however the 3 one is a combined result of VF and 3 together as I have load balancing between them.
The VF one is also on Wi-Fi so I think the DL might have actually been higher as the combined one is a wired TV and was prob 70/60Mbps from each connection

celtic_oz

brav wrote: »

I have 2 connections currently one my own and one paid by work, one is VF and one is Three.
The speedtest results below, the VF one is on its own, however the 3 one is a combined result of VF and 3 together as I have load balancing between them.
The VF one is also on Wi-Fi so I think the DL might have actually been higher as the combined one is a wired TV and was prob 70/60Mbps from each connection

interesting .. what are you using to load balance .. I have a 4g Three router with external antenna, 40mbs peak during the day .. 2mbs between 6 and 11pm

Gooey Looey

Why does every thread in here get sidetracked with 4G talk!

celtic_oz

Gooey Looey wrote: »

Why does every thread in here get sidetracked with 4G talk!

my bad.. ill pm