Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

end of the road · 01-06-2020 7:00pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is insufficient rolling stock throughout IR. Even new stock will not be enough to cover the Dart expansion, as they need more to run the current 10 min Dart service. Dart expansion is for extra services to Maynooth, and Drogheda and Hazelhatch, plus the shortfall on the current Dart service. There will be no spare.

The intercity ones are currently running the PPT service when it should be commuter trains. Those Intercity ones are needed elsewhere on the network.
They will be short of rolling stock for years.

Anyway, I doubt that this bit of land will ever see a train again this century.

i suspect he is talking about diesel sets, dart expansion will clear out the 29s from dublin in all likely hood, or at least that is what should happen.
tuam wouldn't be electrified anyway i would imagine, so no EMUS being available wouldn't effect it.

Isambard · 01-06-2020 7:04pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If one were to be building a new rail connection between Tuam and Galway, would it not be better to build it along the N83 (old N17) which is 35 km, open countryside for the most part, and direct. Google gives the time for a car as 35 mins and 33 km, and surely a modern train on a new alignment would beat that. Put a few P&R stops along the way, and it might make sense.

I think the old alignment makes no sense at all as it is a long way round (46 km vs 33 km), needs a complete rebuild, and there are no trip generators, nor any locals to use it. Plus the Athenry to Galway line needs to be upgraded (but that is needed anyway).

If the money was available to build new rail routes as you suggest, there would be perhaps dozens of places ahead of Tuam in the queue. Just in Cork off the top of my head, I'd say Mitchelstown, Fermoy, Bandon, Macroom .

Sligo eye · 01-06-2020 7:27pm

Isambard wrote: »

If the money was available to build new rail routes as you suggest, there would be perhaps dozens of places ahead of Tuam in the queue. Just in Cork off the top of my head, I'd say Mitchelstown, Fermoy, Bandon, Macroom .

The point is though that they aren’t in the queue. But if you want to start a campaign to get rails back to those towns I for one will gladly join in.

Sam Russell · 01-06-2020 8:42pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

The point is though that they aren’t in the queue. But if you want to start a campaign to get rails back to those towns I for one will gladly join in.

Exactly. If rail is needed in Co Galway, I would start with Luas in Galway City - East to West - Knocknacarra to Briar Hill is 8 km.

Losty Dublin · 01-06-2020 9:21pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

But we have just built a motorway from Ennis to Athenry and then Tuam, do we need another major piece of infrastructure to join them up? Galway is the trip generator, not Tuam, not Gort, and not Ennis.

The Motorway should have gone to Galway, not Athenry.

So the M17 should have gone from Tuam to Galway?

Isambard · 01-06-2020 9:21pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

The point is though that they aren’t in the queue. But if you want to start a campaign to get rails back to those towns I for one will gladly join in.

there is no queue. Should funding become available (by some miracle ) priorities would be decided on a cost/benefit basis. Tuam would be nowhere.

Isambard · 01-06-2020 9:25pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

So the M17 should have gone from Tuam to Galway?

the M6 does the Galway leg doesn't it? Daft to suggest the M17 should have gomne to Galway too. It links with the M18 and the M6

Greaney · 01-06-2020 9:31pm

Isambard wrote: »

If the money was available to build new rail routes as you suggest, there would be perhaps dozens of places ahead of Tuam in the queue. Just in Cork off the top of my head, I'd say Mitchelstown, Fermoy, Bandon, Macroom .

The Western Rail Corridor isn't ultimatly going to Tuam, it's going to Sligo. Tuam is just phase 2 (which was suppossed to be finished in 2011.

Phase 1: Ennis to Athenry
58 km / 36 miles (€74.7 million)

Phase 2: Athenry to Tuam
25 km / 15.5 miles (€34.7 million)

Phase 3: Tuam to Claremorris
(subject to study of rail freight demand or in conjunction with phase 2)
27 km / 17 miles (€58.9 million)

Phase 4: Claremorris to Collooney
(subject to further feasibility studies and possibly justifiable on the grounds of balanced regional development)
74.43 km / 46.25 miles (€197.4 million)

Transport 21
On 1 November 2005 the Transport 21 plan was launched committing government expenditure of €34 billion between 2006 and 2015 on road, rail and light rail projects. The Western Railway Corridor commitments under this plan were largely those recommended by the McCann Report:

2009 – Opening of Ennis-Athenry section
2011 – Opening of Athenry-Tuam section
2014 – Opening of Tuam-Claremorris section

Sam Russell · 01-06-2020 10:17pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

So the M17 should have gone from Tuam to Galway?

The M17 and the M18 were built too far East.

Or more importantly, the M18/M17 should have been built going South East from Limerick and be called the M20.

L1011 · 01-06-2020 11:13pm

end of the road wrote: »

i suspect he is talking about diesel sets, dart expansion will clear out the 29s from dublin in all likely hood, or at least that is what should happen.
tuam wouldn't be electrified anyway i would imagine, so no EMUS being available wouldn't effect it.

The 29s will need a mid life full refit by then - don't be surprised if a few cars succumb to corrosion; and the 2600s will be over 30 and at risk of being scrapped rather than refit also. They (2600) are probably worth refitting but the maths may say no - as long as we get to see the maths and aren't told to trust it like with the Mk3s

So don't expect all released 29ks to be available for other services basically.

02-06-2020 12:32am

Greaney wrote: »

The Western Rail Corridor isn't ultimatly going to Tuam, it's going to Sligo. Tuam is just phase 2 (which was suppossed to be finished in 2011.

Phase 1: Ennis to Athenry
58 km / 36 miles (€74.7 million)

Phase 2: Athenry to Tuam
25 km / 15.5 miles (€34.7 million)

Phase 3: Tuam to Claremorris
(subject to study of rail freight demand or in conjunction with phase 2)
27 km / 17 miles (€58.9 million)

Phase 4: Claremorris to Collooney
(subject to further feasibility studies and possibly justifiable on the grounds of balanced regional development)
74.43 km / 46.25 miles (€197.4 million)

Transport 21
On 1 November 2005 the Transport 21 plan was launched committing government expenditure of €34 billion between 2006 and 2015 on road, rail and light rail projects. The Western Railway Corridor commitments under this plan were largely those recommended by the McCann Report:

2009 – Opening of Ennis-Athenry section
2011 – Opening of Athenry-Tuam section
2014 – Opening of Tuam-Claremorris section

That's all good and well however the shockingly poor performance of the Ennis - Athenry section has put the rest of the line to bed forever.

Sligo CoCo are now committed to changing the use to a greenway. Galway CoCo applied for funding also for a feasibility study on converting it to a greenway.

As for your earlier posts about oodles of students using it, that's just not true. There is publicly available data from the schools themselves that show bugger all students use the existing rail line. If you have data that says otherwise, I invite you to show it.

Btw, anecdotal evidence doesn't merit further discussion

Sligo eye · 02-06-2020 6:39am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's all good and well however the shockingly poor performance of the Ennis - Athenry section has put the rest of the line to bed forever.

Sligo CoCo are now committed to changing the use to a greenway. Galway CoCo applied for funding also for a feasibility study on converting it to a greenway.

As for your earlier posts about oodles of students using it, that's just not true. There is publicly available data from the schools themselves that show bugger all students use the existing rail line. If you have data that says otherwise, I invite you to show it.

Btw, anecdotal evidence doesn't merit further discussion

This is a classic example of propaganda put out by the anti rail movement that makes all sorts of false statements about the railway without any actual data to back those statements up.

Greaney · 02-06-2020 9:54am

Deleted User wrote: »

That's all good and well however the shockingly poor performance of the Ennis - Athenry section has put the rest of the line to bed forever.

As for your earlier posts about oodles of students using it, that's just not true. There is publicly available data from the schools themselves that show bugger all students use the existing rail line. If you have data that says otherwise, I invite you to show it.

Crikey, I don't know where you're getting your information!! Everyone knows the number are climbing very healthily... This is from Feb 2020
PASSENGER NUMBERS SOAR ON WESTERN RAIL CORRIDOR

Sam Russell · 02-06-2020 11:39am

Greaney wrote: »

Crikey, I don't know where you're getting your information!! Everyone knows the number are climbing very healthily... This is from Feb 2020
PASSENGER NUMBERS SOAR ON WESTERN RAIL CORRIDOR

No figures given for Ennis to Athenry which is the bit that matters. The figures quoted (well only percentages) include Athenry, Oranmore etc to Galway. That suggests doublle traking Athenry to Galway needs to be done, or at least passing loops. That alone would give commuting a chance.

Good to see Athlone to Mayo improving.

donvito99 · 02-06-2020 12:01pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

This is a classic example of propaganda put out by the anti rail movement that makes all sorts of false statements about the railway without any actual data to back those statements up.

How many times does it need to be said that anti-continuation of a meandering railway service to Sligo via nowhere and Tuam is not anti-rail.

Sligo eye · 02-06-2020 12:05pm

donvito99 wrote: »

How many times does it need to be said that anti-continuation of a meandering railway service to Sligo via nowhere and Tuam is not anti-rail.

Sorry, but I’ve been “an interested bystander” of your campaign for some years now and most of it consists of mealy mouthed rhetoric such as the post above.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.

Accidentally · 02-06-2020 12:08pm

Greaney wrote: »

Crikey, I don't know where you're getting your information!! Everyone knows the number are climbing very healthily... This is from Feb 2020
PASSENGER NUMBERS SOAR ON WESTERN RAIL CORRIDOR

I'm getting really tired of this nonsense where a surge in commuter numbers from Oranmore to Galway is being attributed to the western rail corridor. I think everyone agrees that double tracking to Athenry or further would be a good idea, but it has sod all to do with the western rail corridor.

02-06-2020 12:16pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

This is a classic example of propaganda put out by the anti rail movement that makes all sorts of false statements about the railway without any actual data to back those statements up.

Correction, Anti-waste

I'm a regular rail user

donvito99 · 02-06-2020 12:59pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

Sorry, but I’ve been “an interested bystander” of your campaign for some years now and most of it consists of mealy mouthed rhetoric such as the post above.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.

If you had shown any real interest "for some years now" you would have observed that I agree with all kinds of investment in the railways here and public transport infrastructure more generally.

You would be correct in saying however that I have disagreed with the WRC from the get go and that I think it's continuation is unjustifiable.

Greaney · 02-06-2020 3:16pm

Accidentally wrote: »

I'm getting really tired of this nonsense where a surge in commuter numbers from Oranmore to Galway is being attributed to the western rail corridor. I think everyone agrees that double tracking to Athenry or further would be a good idea, but it has sod all to do with the western rail corridor.

If you read the link you'd see that Irish Rails statement regarding that suggested all sections saw growth, especially from Ennis to Athenry. Oranmore station was part of phase 1, if it wasn't part of the Western Rail Corridor, it may still not have been built by now. FYI, I grew up in Oranmore, we had lousy public transport for years (we had to hitch everywhere). According to the last census Oranmore had the largest commuter numbers in Co. Galway. Tuam has the second largest commuter population in the county.

For the record, the reason I'm pro-rail is I didn't drive for years. I just couldn't afford to drive so I relied on public transport. That's tough if you're raising a family that way. Also, I'm currently the 'sandwich generation' , that is, the age of folk who've to care for both children and adult dependents, so public transport is very important to our household functioning. If there's poor public transport, the parent (usually the woman/mother) are running from pillar to post in the car ferrying everyone everywhere. That's why the 'use the motorway' option feels a little like 'let them eat cake'.

I also have been doing youth work for over 25 years and by the time children are about 12 or 13, the parents are 'done' ferrying them to everything unless they're playing at county level or are first violin in an orchestra. You see a huge collapse in teen participation in 'life'. Public transport becomes key to them.

Finally, as a full time carer of a disabled family member the train is our lifeline. Epilepsy rendered them unable to drive anymore. Aquired Brain Injury, it could happen to the best of us.... So the young, poor, disabled, and elderly may not be profitable, just like schools & hospitals may not be profitable.

Investement in our public transport is not quantified by counting the profit one makes, like in a shop, but how it facilitates the liveability of our communities.

end of the road · 02-06-2020 3:22pm

L1011 wrote: »

The 29s will need a mid life full refit by then - don't be surprised if a few cars succumb to corrosion; and the 2600s will be over 30 and at risk of being scrapped rather than refit also. They (2600) are probably worth refitting but the maths may say no - as long as we get to see the maths and aren't told to trust it like with the Mk3s

So don't expect all released 29ks to be available for other services basically.

fair point.

Deleted User wrote: »

That's all good and well however the shockingly poor performance of the Ennis - Athenry section has put the rest of the line to bed forever.

Sligo CoCo are now committed to changing the use to a greenway. Galway CoCo applied for funding also for a feasibility study on converting it to a greenway.

As for your earlier posts about oodles of students using it, that's just not true. There is publicly available data from the schools themselves that show bugger all students use the existing rail line. If you have data that says otherwise, I invite you to show it.

Btw, anecdotal evidence doesn't merit further discussion

the shockingly poor performance during the first few years during a huge recession you mean?
doubt it has put the rest to bed forever.

Accidentally wrote: »

I'm getting really tired of this nonsense where a surge in commuter numbers from Oranmore to Galway is being attributed to the western rail corridor. I think everyone agrees that double tracking to Athenry or further would be a good idea, but it has sod all to do with the western rail corridor.

if they are getting on a train that originates from limerick then they are part of that train.
if that train wasn't running, they wouldn't be there.

Sam Russell · 02-06-2020 3:55pm

end of the road wrote: »

if they are getting on a train that originates from limerick then they are part of that train.
if that train wasn't running, they wouldn't be there.

That is equivalent to justifying the Rosslare to Dublin line using figures for commuters to Dubin from Greystones, or Rathdrum.

Not all trains that go from Limerick to Ennis continue to Athenry Only 4 trains a day go from Ennis to Galway each way. Of course, Limerick to Galway takes two hours. It is one hour 20 mins non-stop.

end of the road · 02-06-2020 4:39pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is equivalent to justifying the Rosslare to Dublin line using figures for commuters to Dubin from Greystones, or Rathdrum.

Not all trains that go from Limerick to Ennis continue to Athenry Only 4 trains a day go from Ennis to Galway each way. Of course, Limerick to Galway takes two hours. It is one hour 20 mins non-stop.

it's not.
for a start, rosslare dublin trains are the only trains that serve rathdrum, and the morning goarey if it still runs.

secondly, 120 non-stop from limerick to galway would in all likely hood be in perfect conditions, and as we know with road, perfect conditions are a matter of luck rather then a matter of reality at all times and in all cases, where 1 of the destinations has cronic traffic issues.

whether it's 4 or 1 or 8 trains, the individuals using those particular trains from limerick would have no other train option at the specific times if those trains weren't running, they would only have the ones from dublin, which may not be suitable for the times they are currently leaving athenry at.

galwaytt · 02-06-2020 5:08pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The M17 and the M18 were built too far East.

Or more importantly, the M18/M17 should have been built going South East from Limerick and be called the M20.

No they weren't: you forget there are (were) plans to create an entire new town(Ardaun) East of Galway City to shift (traffic) from crossing the city in it's entirety.

Swinging all Northbound/Southbound traffic into Galway City - which can't breathe for traffic - would have been beyond ridiculous. Proof of the pudding is the queue out the M6 in the mornings, long before you even hit the city boundary. This is it on a good day, it's been out past J19 Claregalway/Oranmore junction often enough too.

Accidentally · 02-06-2020 5:43pm

Greany,

We can pretend as much as you want, but the truth is no one outside of Irish Rail and WRC enthusiasts would expect commuter figures for Oranmore to be included in WRC passenger numbers. It is deceitful at best.

I grew up in the countryside with no public transport, where you hitched and begged lifts wherever you could. I now bring kids wherever they need to go, but it doesn't stop at 12 or 13, it stops when they learn how to drive.

To me the WRC is a solution in search of a problem, and Tuam-Galway commuting appears to be one(if not the primary)problem it proposes to fix. It would appear that I am one of the target customers for the WRC, as I regularly travel between Tuam and Galway. Here are the issues I have.

1. I want to travel to Galway, and have no desire to travel to Athenry, or spend time connecting there. It might be okay as a one off, but it is not something I would consider on a daily basis. I don't think there's even a bus service between the two towns, so there is minimal local demand between the two towns.
2. To be useful you would need a regular service(every hour?), but I cannot see passenger numbers supporting this, especially for a connecting service.
3. Burke's cover the city centre, colleges, business parks and some estates. Rail would cover city centre only, with a bus or walk required for the others.

In short, bus and car already cover the needs of people in Tuam. Rail would provide minimal benefit for a huge investment, which could be much better used elsewhere. If you want to invest in rail, reopen the line to Navan, where you already have the numbers. Even Athlone-Mullingar would make more sense that Athenry-Tuam.

end of the road · 02-06-2020 6:22pm

Accidentally wrote: »

Greany,

We can pretend as much as you want, but the truth is no one outside of Irish Rail and WRC enthusiasts would expect commuter figures for Oranmore to be included in WRC passenger numbers. It is deceitful at best.

I grew up in the countryside with no public transport, where you hitched and begged lifts wherever you could. I now bring kids wherever they need to go, but it doesn't stop at 12 or 13, it stops when they learn how to drive.

To me the WRC is a solution in search of a problem, and Tuam-Galway commuting appears to be one(if not the primary)problem it proposes to fix. It would appear that I am one of the target customers for the WRC, as I regularly travel between Tuam and Galway. Here are the issues I have.

1. I want to travel to Galway, and have no desire to travel to Athenry, or spend time connecting there. It might be okay as a one off, but it is not something I would consider on a daily basis. I don't think there's even a bus service between the two towns, so there is minimal local demand between the two towns.
2. To be useful you would need a regular service(every hour?), but I cannot see passenger numbers supporting this, especially for a connecting service.
3. Burke's cover the city centre, colleges, business parks and some estates. Rail would cover city centre only, with a bus or walk required for the others.

In short, bus and car already cover the needs of people in Tuam. Rail would provide minimal benefit for a huge investment, which could be much better used elsewhere. If you want to invest in rail, reopen the line to Navan, where you already have the numbers. Even Athlone-Mullingar would make more sense that Athenry-Tuam.

where are you getting the idea that it would be a connecting service, we don't know what the service pattern would be as it has not even to my knowledge been discussed.
it's an assumption made with no basis from what i can see, made on the basis that the driver has to change ends at athenry which is not an issue these days with multiple unit trains.
bus and car may just about provide the needs for some, but it is never going to be thee sollution and galway cannot take any more cars hence rail being needed and talked about, and bus is not going to be the transport option to cut that car traffic because if it was, it would have done it long ago.

Isambard · 02-06-2020 6:40pm

why would the driver need to change ends at Athenry on a Tuam to Galway journey?

Sam Russell · 02-06-2020 6:54pm

end of the road wrote: »

where are you getting the idea that it would be a connecting service, we don't know what the service pattern would be as it has not even to my knowledge been discussed.
it's an assumption made with no basis from what i can see, made on the basis that the driver has to change ends at athenry which is not an issue these days with multiple unit trains.
bus and car may just about provide the needs for some, but it is never going to be thee sollution and galway cannot take any more cars hence rail being needed and talked about, and bus is not going to be the transport option to cut that car traffic because if it was, it would have done it long ago.

The trains leaving Tuam are destined for Galway or Limerick?

The trains leaving Ennis are going to Tuam or Galway?

The trains going from Limerick Junction to Ennis go via Limerick and have to change ends, so why not at Athenry?

Is this thought through?

Sligo eye · 02-06-2020 7:26pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The trains leaving Tuam are destined for Galway or Limerick?

The trains leaving Ennis are going to Tuam or Galway?

The trains going from Limerick Junction to Ennis go via Limerick and have to change ends, so why not at Athenry?

Is this thought through?

At this stage who cares, the timetable and service patterns can’t be established until the service gets approval?

Isambard · 02-06-2020 7:47pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The trains leaving Tuam are destined for Galway or Limerick?

The trains leaving Ennis are going to Tuam or Galway?

The trains going from Limerick Junction to Ennis go via Limerick and have to change ends, so why not at Athenry?

Is this thought through?

In my experience you'd have to change trains at Limerick on a Lim Junc to Ennis journey. The one I was on was described as a through service but wasn't.

If you can change in Limerick, why would someone think you shouldn't have to change at Athenry on a Tuam service?

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

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