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Shed build - help

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    #62
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Lumen wrote: »
    I don't see how it's better than this, which is what I bought before I went with the rods and pucks approach:

    https://www.goodwins.ie/products/Everbuild-Epoxyset-106-Rapid-Cure-5Kg.html

    EPOXYSET 106 RAPID CURE
    TECHNICAL INFORMATION
    Compressive Strength >90N/mm2 (EN12190)
    Tensile Adhesion Strength >3N/mm2 (EN1542)

    That gives compressive strength over the six 140x189mm ground screw plates of 14 million newtons.

    You wouldn't be an engineer by any chance would you?

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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    #63
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Rows Grower wrote: »
    You wouldn't be an engineer by any chance would you?
    Nope. I know my limitations!

    I'm going to get an engineer to look at it, but only when I'm finished. The risk that the whole thing proves massively ill-conceived and unsound adds to the entertainment/motivation. :D


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    #64
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Lumen wrote: »
    Nope. I know my limitations!

    I'm going to get an engineer to look at it, but only when I'm finished. The risk that the whole thing proves massively ill-conceived and unsound adds to the entertainment/motivation. :D

    I was 99.9% sure you were to be honest.

    It looks to me like you have covered every single detail so well that the world of engineering needs you.

    I think I'd feel safe driving a motorbike over a rope bridge you'd made and I'm afraid of heights.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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    #65
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    Lumen wrote: »
    I don't see how it's better than this, which is what I bought before I went with the rods and pucks approach:

    https://www.goodwins.ie/products/Everbuild-Epoxyset-106-Rapid-Cure-5Kg.html

    EPOXYSET 106 RAPID CURE
    TECHNICAL INFORMATION
    Compressive Strength >90N/mm2 (EN12190)
    Tensile Adhesion Strength >3N/mm2 (EN1542)

    That gives compressive strength over the six 140x189mm ground screw plates of 14 million newtons.

    You have some adjustment with the wedges if necessary, they are a simple solution and you could use the coach bolt through the wedges to hold them together.

    I have a couple of concerns with the screws. Primarily I don't think the ground anchors were designed to support a load directed directly to the screw holes. Secondly I suspect over time the screws will be forgotten and rust.

    The top face of the ground anchors is obviously designed to support weight across the full top surface and and the screw holes are there to hold the support beams in place not to provide jacking points.

    That said I think you are well within any tolerances for doing it the way you are.


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    #66
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Any misconceptions that I know what I'm doing are about to die...

    So, if like me you've wondered "what if I made a bearing pad from epoxy resin, colloidal silica, 00 pasta flour and a bit of sawdust", today is an exciting day! Otherwise, not so much.

    I took a trip up to Ecological Building Systems in Athboy to pick up some Gutex Thermoflex insulation and a load of pro clima products for the next stage (Solitex Fronta Quattro fleecy weatherproof UV-proof membrane for the outside and over the joists, Tescon Vana tape for air tightness and membrane sealing, Orcon F for where need a seal but don't need to use tape). Great bunch of lads, very helpful and informative, and they've a nice showroom (thanks for the tip my3cents) showing various details like how to lap the membrane under the roofing boards.

    Then....I decided to fill those gaps over the ground screw bearing plates, at least at the corners for now. It might not be necessary, but as was pointed out they're not really designed to take point loads and better safe than sorry.

    I used up the tub of "Everbuild Epoxyset 106" on the first two-and-half screws. It wasn't quite as sticky as I'd like, you can see a slight gap at the top in the pics, but it was easy to push into the voids around the bolts using a gloved hand, trowelled well and for an epoxy product it was generally easy to work with. I've never done any mortaring of any kind before, and the results are...OK. Thing is, it's quite expensive for what appears to be just coarse sand and epoxy resin, so I weighed the quantities so I have the recipe:

    Resin 400g
    Hardener 175g
    Aggregate 4400g

    So that's about 15:2 ratio of aggregate to resin, by weight.

    Then I decided to experiment making my own. I didn't have any sand in the house, and according to West Systems the best filler for adhesion is colloidal silica, which I have used in small quantities. Adhesion is good, right? So I mixed it to the usual peanut butter consistency and...it was super-super sticky. Too sticky for trowelling. So I added some flour in order to make it more doughy, but ended up with something very much like choux pastry, just a bit too runny and sticky. Anyway, it went in OK and I threw some sawdust over it to give is less of a plasticky finish. The results are....ugly. So assuming sand is the magic ingredient I think I'll brew up a batch of sandy resin and finish those consistently with the other screws.

    Anyway, tomorrow I'm going to nail some things into some other things.

    IMG0_IMq_Jy_D.jpgtc_A5_Pv_L.jpgMt_Eio_Dt.jpg


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    #67
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    I probably won't sleep after seeing that last picture.

    Bring on the nailing!

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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    #68
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,697 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    For me. I'd take them all out and level then with timber wedges and bolt it all down to the pad.


    Over engineered there and giving yourself less of a solid result.

    Many cases simple is better. Simple has been done since newgrange was put up.


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    #69
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    That epoxy mortar is going nowhere. It may outlive human life on earth. Anyway, on to less contentious matters...maybe.

    Today was fun.

    I had this idea a while ago to hang the floor under the frame, to maximize head height, expose the ring beam inside (which will be hidden on the outside by six inches of insulation, membrane, and cladding) and add drama/cozyness by more level changes (no TGD part M, cos it's a shed).

    And the because the joists only need to be 3.3m wide, but come in 4.8m lengths, and the whole thing is on a 10% slope, I thought: why not cantilever them out into space to create a tree-level verandah, fall hazard or whatever?

    The tricky bit was getting the gap right. The plan is to put use two layers of 12mm OSB as a sub-floor, slide it into the gap, leaving about 2-3mm remaining to close with airtightness gunk or tape. Once the OSB seams are taped (maybe the lower layer), the floor will be airtight, and I can then add a solid wood floor, probably the same 18mm larch cladding I'm using for the outside and possibly internal walls, butted against the beam. Not sure about expansion gaps, would T&G be a better bet?

    Anyway, after a morning of getting it wrong, everything started slotting into place consistently level. Trick was to get the metalwork on the joists before nailing the joist+metalwork to the frame, and using a knocked up spacer jig thing to get the gap right.

    The floor needs to be cross-braced with blocking. I think I'll do 1.5m strips of membrane + insulation, then blocking, then repeat.

    So this is how it worked out...

    (I know I haven't finished the nailing, I ran out of sheradized twist nails).

    Big pics: https://imgur.com/a/SixWuSq

    6w_UFHc_Z.jpg

    i5_Vaa_Ry.jpg

    DEL8_Yi_N.jpg

    Jkwe_A5o.jpg

    jqw_VZlh.jpg

    kgj_Xyvm.jpg

    NLw_Jlx_P.jpg


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    #70
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    How many helpers had you today?

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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    #71
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Rows Grower wrote: »
    How many helpers had you today?
    One.


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    #72
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Fair play that is a serious quality of work!

    I'm exhausted just looking at it.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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    #73
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    I'm interested in why you left the joists sticking out at what I assume is the back of the shed?


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    #74
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    Just a suggestion:

    While you are still at that stage, consider setting down a large concrete pad somewhere upon which you can put a timber leg to support a workbench with a vice on.

    It's one thing I regret not doing and is a pain to retrofit.


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    #75
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    my3cents wrote: »
    I'm interested in why you left the joists sticking out at what I assume is the back of the shed?

    That's the right hand long side. The back gable is along the fence.

    You mean by turning the metalwork around? Can't do that as there's a flange in the way. But if I'd gone for deeper joists that would have worked. In fact 175mm joists would have worked fine, I'd just have needed to dig another inch into the slope. They'd be stiffer too. I'll do that on the next shed :pac:

    In any event, the joist extending 60mm or so provides a platform for the 80mm insulation to sit on with a small overhang to sort of round it all off when it's wrapped in membrane.


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    #76
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Steve wrote: »
    Just a suggestion:

    While you are still at that stage, consider setting down a large concrete pad somewhere upon which you can put a timber leg to support a workbench with a vice on.

    It's one thing I regret not doing and is a pain to retrofit.

    Unfortunately this isn't going to be my workshop, it's a birthday present for my daughter. And her interest in bench vices is quite limited.


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    #77
    Zebbedee
    Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭Zebbedee


    Lumen wrote: »

    I had this idea a while ago to hang the floor under the frame


    Super idea to gain height.

    I'm assuming you'll be stepping over the threshold and not cutting out the step?
    If so, you and yours will get used to it quickly but you'll be fed up telling people to mind the step. Or you could rig up a sensor system to trigger a prerecorded message as in the London underground to 'mind the step' ;)

    Did you get the metal hangers made specially?


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    #78
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Zebbedee wrote: »
    I'm assuming you'll be stepping over the threshold and not cutting out the step?
    If so, you and yours will get used to it quickly but you'll be fed up telling people to mind the step.

    The step is going to be at the top of some kind of staircase, so it should seem natural enough.
    Zebbedee wrote: »
    Did you get the metal hangers made specially?
    No, they're normal long-leg jiffy hangers. I got mine direct from Eurometals who I think supply the builders providers.


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    #79
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    In the cold light of day I think that verandah is going to have to go unless I can figure out how to finish it with a light, grippy deck (composite?) and stop rainwater from following the joist into the structure (maybe a raised lip and a load of sealant? seems dodgy).

    It also complicates the membrane detail and whilst it's fine with a couple of adults standing on it now, in a few years time there are probably going to be a load of pissed teenagers dancing on it. There's too much to go wrong.

    edit: maybe if I covered the exposed section of joist with bituminous roofing paint and taped it to the membrane that would do it?


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    #80
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Zebbedee wrote: »

    Did you get the metal hangers made specially?

    Never heard them called 'long leg jiffy hangers', we just call them 'joist hangers' and most hardware stores do them. I used them on my own decking.


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    #81
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Never heard them called 'long leg jiffy hangers', we just call them 'joist hangers' and most hardware stores do them. I used them on my own decking.

    I've also seen them called "speedy" hangers. I think it's a hoover/Hoover/google/Google thing.

    Since I have zero construction experience I never know the right names for things and end up calling them whatever they're called on websites, usually UK or US. It creates a lot of confusion!


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    #82
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Lumen wrote: »
    I've also seen them called "speedy" hangers. I think it's a hoover/Hoover/google/Google thing.

    Since I have zero construction experience I never know the right names for things and end up calling them whatever they're called on websites, usually UK or US. It creates a lot of confusion!

    I described them in the shop as 'you know those steel thingy's you can hang wood from?'. Worked as well. :)


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    #83
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    So I've been thinking about windows.

    Since I'll have a 50mm or so gap between the external insulation and the cladding, it seems I could mount windows outboard, screwed through the insulation into the studs.

    So the build up would be:

    - Stud
    - Insulation
    - Sealed double glazing unit slightly wider (say 10mm) than stud gap on all sides, framed by OSB of same thickness
    - Another OSB frame, but with narrower opening same with as stud, to clamp the glass.
    - Screw the whole thing through the insulation into the studs, tape to membrane.

    Would this work?

    edit: in case it's not clear, I'm proposing that the glass is pressed against the insulation, because the (woodfibre) insulation should have a bit of give in it to help give a good seal. This will not be an opening window, although I guess I could hinge it at the top, but then I'd need another layer of ply to retain the glass...

    Screen_Shot_2018-08-30_at_10.00.09.png

    Screen_Shot_2018-08-30_at_10.07.37.png


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    #84
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Spent today on the floor insulation, supported by Solitex Quattro Fronta membrane.

    Lower layer is 100mm woodfibre, upper layer is 40mm hemp.

    As usual the ground screws made everything more complicated, hence the ugly taping detail. It actually looks OK from a distance, and this is all going to be covered by more insulation, membrane and cladding anyway, the main purpose is just to keep the insulation in place.

    I think if I was doing this again I'd just put a layer of OSB underneath the joists, and the tape the membrane under that. The over-and-under membrane thing is tedious and awkward.

    Also made a slotted floor support on the front gable, into which the OSB subfloor will sit, doubling as a trim panel from the outside.

    There's probably a couple more hours of fiddling with the insulation and corner detailing before I can lay the actual subfloor.

    IMGH8_Xi_PHr.jpgl_Tr_Iyr2.jpgqnu55md.jpgu1_Isxa_B.jpg
    9jj_UIk_Q.jpg


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    #85
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    Whats to stop critters getting into the insulation and making a nest?


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    #86
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    my3cents wrote: »
    Whats to stop critters getting into the insulation and making a nest?
    That question has been burrowing away at the back of my mind for a while. Do you think I should nail insect mesh to the whole underside?

    Eurometals do rolls of it but its very expensive.

    Narrow weldmesh?

    edit: how about this 13mm galvanized mesh?

    https://www.raygrahams.com/products/86757-galvanised-wire-netting-50m-x-600mm-13mm-mesh.aspx


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    #87
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    Well we have rats in the roof of the garage in the insulation in the roof and we regularly get rats in the house roof. We aren't in a good spot next to a river and we keep chickens so rats are always around but they get into everything except the inhabited part of the house. Your shed is in a really nice spot for rats and they can easily get to the lower end so to be brutally honest I'd be surprised if you didn't get rats up in there.

    I'm not really sure that 13mm mesh is quite small enough mice will definitely go through it and use it like a climbing frame so I'd go with something like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/3ftx2ft-Panels-6mmx6mm-Galvanised-enclosures/dp/B00R7QWOGI/ with a 6mm / 1/4inch square mesh. Its also a lot easier to use than chicken wire.

    Edit> I really think you missed a trick with those ground screws. If you could have kept the lowest end of the shed further off the ground then the ground screws would of worked like staddle stones.


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    #88
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    my3cents wrote: »
    I really think you missed a trick with those ground screws. If you could have kept the lowest end of the shed further off the ground then the ground screws would of worked like staddle stones.
    Can't do that due to maximum 4m height, unfortunately. I need the headroom inside.


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    #89
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    Lumen wrote: »
    Can't do that due to maximum 4m height, unfortunately. I need the headroom inside.

    You didn't need to build a cathedral ;)

    I'd also question the need for such a steep pitch on the roof (sorry I know I should have said earlier) iirc the standard garden shed roof has a pitch of about 23 degrees.


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    #90
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    my3cents wrote: »
    You didn't need to build a cathedral ;)

    I'd also question the need for such a steep pitch on the roof (sorry I know I should have said earlier) iirc the standard garden shed roof has a pitch of about 23 degrees.

    I've taken the pitch down to 31 degrees. Steeper pitch is required for slates and is better for structural ridge beam, and means I don't need membrane over the roof insulation.

    Also, I need the height for the mezzanine floor :pac:


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    #91
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    I realise at least some of the stuff I'm posting is quite boring, but scrolling costs nothing, right? And it might be useful to someone doing a house renovation.

    So, insulation materials...

    The supposed benefits of wood fibre insulation (aside from its nesting appeal to woodland creatures, rats and so on) is that it has a high "decrement delay" i.e. smooths out temperatures over a daily cycle, is natural, non-toxic, biodegradable, vapour permeable, easy to handle and so on.

    I used mostly 100mm Gutex Thermoflex in the floor, and topped up with 40mm of Thermo Hemp. Reasoning was simply because Thermoflex is only stocked in 100mm, and my joists are 150mm deep.

    The Thermoflex is quite "dimensional", in that it has square edges, and only flexes enough to "cramp" between the studs/joists/rafters whatever. It smells fantastically woody and is non-itchy to handle, but needs a respirator even outdoors (I didn't use one in the morning and was coughing by lunch). It's great to fit between squared voids of exact dimensions, but is designed to "cramp" to only about 98-99% of its 370mm width, so even with a fairly narrow 42mm joist it's a bit of a squeeze into 400mm centres. The bigger issue is this "membrane over the joists" approach doesn't leave a squared void, it's round at the bottom, so there is a bit of insulation compression which is annoying. But the Thermoflex is really easy to separate into layers, or tear off chunks for awkward corners...

    The Thermo Hemp is like a blanket, not at all dusty, but a complete b'stard to cut. I've blunted a pair of dressmaking shears already. It feels like a worse choice for stud/rafter fitting, because it won't really stay put, but it's OK for joists. I also don't know what the decrement delay of hemp is like.

    Anyway, if I was doing this job again I'd either do the membrane-over-joists thing with thin sheets of Thermo Hemp because it folds nicely into non-square voids, or put mesh under the joists and use Thermoflex wood fibre.


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