New warmflow oil condenser boiler keeps cutting out

jimf · 25-10-2020 8:01pm

my money is on a faulty pump

John.G · 25-10-2020 8:40pm

I won't take you up on that Jimf, I can donate my Salmson NYL33 which was still running perfectly and silently after 18 years when I replaced it two years ago with a 6M Wilo Yonos Pico simply because I wanted to see for myself the different operating modes.
Joking aside, it should be very easy to determine if a pump is stopped or not, all you need is a screwdriver!

It seems that the Evosta 2 engine is blocked ...
If the Evosta 2 circulator, not completely degassed, has been unoperational with water for a long time, for example a few months (the period may vary depending on the hardness of the water used in the system), limescale may be formed that can determine the block in the rotation of the motor, highlighted by the relative error shown on the display (2 flashes). In these cases it is possible to try to unlock the motor shaft by removing the vent plug and acting with a screwdriver on the shaft, as shown in the Evosta 2 how to Manual deblocking the shaft:

Dtp1979 · 25-10-2020 9:04pm

The chances of limescale causing this issue is nil John.
Make sure both auto air vents are closed OP

jimf · 25-10-2020 9:25pm

John.G wrote: »

I won't take you up on that Jimf, I can donate my Salmson NYL33 which was still running perfectly and silently after 18 years when I replaced it two years ago with a 6M Wilo Yonos Pico simply because I wanted to see for myself the different operating modes.
Joking aside, it should be very easy to determine if a pump is stopped or not, all you need is a screwdriver!

It seems that the Evosta 2 engine is blocked ...
If the Evosta 2 circulator, not completely degassed, has been unoperational with water for a long time, for example a few months (the period may vary depending on the hardness of the water used in the system), limescale may be formed that can determine the block in the rotation of the motor, highlighted by the relative error shown on the display (2 flashes). In these cases it is possible to try to unlock the motor shaft by removing the vent plug and acting with a screwdriver on the shaft, as shown in the Evosta 2 how to Manual deblocking the shaft:

imho john i think they have been fecking around too much with pumps

but i do know of at least 4 pumps that have failed in the first month in use this year so far supplier own brand pumps god only knows made by whom

one lasted 2 days and one other less than a week

corkgsxr · 25-10-2020 9:56pm

I only fit grundfos myself

needtoknowasap · 25-10-2020 9:56pm

John.G wrote: »

The expansion tank (in a hot press) and system is normally pressurised to 1bar to1.25bar by opening a isolating valve (or two) somewhere and there will "have to" be a pressure gauge somewhere as well, sometimes on the boiler.
There are two other alternatives, one is that the open vented system has been converted into a semi sealed system where the cold feed from the (small) tank has a non return valve and will replinish any water loss or loss due to venting automatically so no pressure gauge is needed, if no small tank then sometimes this cold feed is just taken off the cold water outlet from the main cold water storage tank, again with a non return valve and no pressure gauge fitted or required.

You will have to do a bit of searching, follow the expansion vessel pipe back to where it joins into another one and you may come across something.

Also, have you two (big&small) tanks in your attic or just one big one.

If no water has been making up the loss due to venting etc then you will get no circulation through the system if the water level is very low.

So you will have to sort this out before even firing the boiler again.

These are the sort of items you are looking for.

Thanks for all your help, hoping can contact the installer tomorrow his phone has been off all weekend. As usual though it will probably work as normal when he arrives and make us look like we're imagining things yet again

Dtp1979 · 26-10-2020 12:12am

Cant say I’ve ever had 1 issue with own branded pumps in the last 4 years.

John.G · 26-10-2020 9:14am

I know of one Dab Evosta 4/7 which was sold by heat merchants as a HM 40/70 or something like that and its still OK after I think ~ 6 years. There are probably re branded inferior quality products out there alright though.
System gas boilers all have internal circulating pumps, wonder what the failure rate of those is.

John.G · 26-10-2020 9:24am

corkgsxr wrote: »

I only fit grundfos myself

The Grundfos UPS2 is probably long lasting but its proportional pressure mode was pretty poor as its max PP selectable head of ~ 3.2M was useless in lots of cases and the pump had to be run on one of its constant curve modes, even the UPS3 max setting was no great shakes @ ~ 3.6M, any pump with PP (or CP) mode should be capable of a PP setting up to 4.5/5M. My system requires a 3M head at 15 LPM so I have to set the PP mode at 4.4M to achieve this which results in a power requirement of ~ 16 to 22W depending on heat demand.

meercat · 26-10-2020 9:40am

Where’s the pump actually connected to. My money is that’s it’s only pumping when the boiler is firing causing the high limit stat to trip on shutdown. Either way get the installer back out as others have said

John.G · 26-10-2020 10:01am

Don't think it has tripped on the hi limit stat, the boiler only runs for a few minutes and then cuts out, the op was shown how to vent air from the boiler by opening its PRV, it might point to faulty pump or maybe a faulty stat even with a new boiler.
Normally a oil fired boiler doesn't have pump overrun on shutdown so if/when all zones shut down while the boiler is firing, the boiler and the pump both stop, the water temperature will rise due to heat soak but will not reach the hi limit stat setting of ~ 110/113C.

corkgsxr · 26-10-2020 11:38pm

meercat wrote: »

Where’s the pump actually connected to. My money is that’s it’s only pumping when the boiler is firing causing the high limit stat to trip on shutdown. Either way get the installer back out as others have said

That's a very good point.

John.G · 27-10-2020 11:23am

Yes, it would be foolish to discount any possibility, even if the pump was wired to run only with the boiler, in the morning with a cold start it shouldn't make any difference as the boiler will run continuously for 20 or 30 minutes before cut out, it would certainly make a difference after this as the boiler (and pump) would then only re fire depending on how long it took for the boiler temperature to fall by ~ 10C due to radiation and/or maybe some gravity circulation depending on the system pipework.
It will be interesting to see the cause.

CoBo55 · 27-10-2020 12:07pm

John.G wrote: »

Yes, it would be foolish to discount any possibility, even if the pump was wired to run only with the boiler, in the morning with a cold start it shouldn't make any difference as the boiler will run continuously for 20 or 30 minutes before cut out, it would certainly make a difference after this as the boiler (and pump) would then only re fire depending on how long it took for the boiler temperature to fall by ~ 10C due to radiation and/or maybe some gravity circulation depending on the system pipework.
It will be interesting to see the cause.

He would feel the rads heating up during the warm up and he has said repeatedly that high limit stat hasn't been tripped when he checks. Pump is kaput or there's a bad connection to it. Simply putting his hand on it would let him know if it's still running ( as was said earlier).

needtoknowasap · 30-10-2020 8:30am

Pump seems to have been the problem it has been replaced and flying since. Thanks for all your help.

John.G · 30-10-2020 9:18am

Glad to hear you are sorted, for future reference. do those 3 indicating LEDs (still) go out a few seconds after pressing the mode button?.

CoBo55 · 30-10-2020 10:56am

needtoknowasap wrote: »

Pump seems to have been the problem it has been replaced and flying since. Thanks for all your help.

Thanks for the update, glad you're sorted. Some ball ache from the missus when there's heating problems, a warm house is a happy house

:D

needtoknowasap · 30-10-2020 10:20pm

John.G wrote: »

Glad to hear you are sorted, for future reference. do those 3 indicating LEDs (still) go out a few seconds after pressing the mode button?.

It was replaced with a different brand pump so doesn't have the lights

corkgsxr · 30-10-2020 11:31pm

Top job. I reiterate not a fan of dab

John.G · 31-10-2020 10:32am

If mounted above the boiler like the previous pump then it will be a good test for it, whatever make/model, as the temperature up there on my admittedly 15 year old Firebird is 70/90C whereas at the side of the boiler where I have the pump mounted is 30/35C.

CoBo55 · 31-10-2020 11:27am

John.G wrote: »

If mounted above the boiler like the previous pump then it will be a good test for it, whatever make/model, as the temperature up there on my admittedly 15 year old Firebird is 70/90C whereas at the side of the boiler where I have the pump mounted is 30/35C.

It definitely seems to be a very strange way to place a pump.

corkgsxr · 31-10-2020 2:30pm

John.G wrote: »

If mounted above the boiler like the previous pump then it will be a good test for it, whatever make/model, as the temperature up there on my admittedly 15 year old Firebird is 70/90C whereas at the side of the boiler where I have the pump mounted is 30/35C.

I always mount them at the back or side. Put a vent on top then

Wearb · 31-10-2020 4:14pm

MI's have it on top.

DGOBS · 31-10-2020 4:48pm

Lot of the system boilers have it there too.

John.G · 31-10-2020 4:58pm

Are these fairly new MIs? because all the older type oil boilers (heat pacs anyway) had the flow and return coming from the side of the boiler (where the water is!) and then turned down before exiting the heat pac.

Wearb · 31-10-2020 5:11pm

John.G wrote: »

Are these fairly new MIs? because all the older type oil boilers (heat pacs anyway) had the flow and return coming from the side of the boiler (where the water is!) and then turned down before exiting the heat pac.

I haven't come across one of those yet.
I have however came across an odd one with circulator on top. Not sure but I think they had an insulation panel between it and boiler top, similar to what you find in walls of kabin Pacs

corkgsxr · 01-11-2020 2:45pm

I'd say it's more put there as nowhere else to put it without blocking access panels.

Firebird and grant have space at the back

John.G · 01-11-2020 3:19pm

That Dab 2 states max environmental temperature of 40C & max liquid temp of 110C & temp class TF 110
Grundfof state 55C/95C & temp class TF95

Wearb · 01-11-2020 3:27pm

John.G wrote: »

That Dab 2 states max environmental temperature of 40C & max liquid temp of 110C & temp class TF 110
Grundfof state 55C/95C & temp class TF95

Everyone seems to be putting in a get out clause now. 40 degrees even in a hotpress is a ridiculous limit.

John.G · 01-11-2020 3:48pm

Heat Pacs get fairly cosy though, I suppose all one can do is install them in the coolest place possible as they are the only show in town now.

Wearb · 01-11-2020 4:11pm

John.G wrote: »

Heat Pacs get fairly cosy though, I suppose all one can do is install them in the coolest place possible as they are the only show in town now.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057522449/1/#post97732871

Here's a post from when I measured the temperature inside the casing.

John.G · 01-11-2020 8:20pm

The ABV (used in conjunction with pump overrun) shown in that attachment raises another problem because of these "smart" circulating pumps, it was relatively easy to set them up with the traditional circ pumps as the pump head rose/rises with reduced flow but all the smart pumps don't work like this because even fixed speed mode (constant curve) on these maintain a constant head for a portion of their so called constant curve mode. I wonder has anyone fitted a normally open motorised valve like a Honeywell 4043B which would be wired to the zone valve end switches orange wires, it would then close when any zone valve opens and would only open when all zone valves shut off.

New warmflow oil condenser boiler keeps cutting out

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