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Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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    #4292
    Nate--IRL--
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Nate--IRL--


    badtoro wrote: »
    I'd hold on another while. There was celebrating last December too.

    The EU have done all they can in regard to the Border - it is now entirely in the hands of the UK... god help us.

    Nate


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    #4293
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    gunny123 wrote: »
    blackcard wrote: »
    He was very clear in his support of Ireland's position. Some people have done a lot of good work in getting the EU to back us

    The eu use us as a pawn more like, they are not interested in tiny countries like us, remember the way were treated in the nice and lisbon referendums, and then the bail out ? We were just a stick used to beat the brits with.
    All evidence to the contrary but don't let that stop you


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    #4294
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,579 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Here is Tony Connelly on the backstop and how the withdrawal agreement can be ended.

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1062804086771404801?s=19

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1062804466817212428?s=19

    So far I see the only compromise being that the whole of the UK is in the customs union from the EU. To be honest that isn't much of one either as it is in the EU's interest for the UK to be as close as possible. The reality of the GFA has always meant anything other than this was impossible. Took about 19 months to figure it out.


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    #4295
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,579 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    listermint wrote: »
    None of it will fly .

    I just don't see it.


    Yes, getting it through parliament is going to be tough or even impossible. The only option is either cancel the whole thing or no deal if they don't accept this as there is no other deal they can possibly get though.


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    #4296
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 14,892 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    I wouldn't be a fan of the present government but I think we have to acknowledge that the Government and DFA have done well here.


    With the inclusion of unless and until in the agreement we have got everything we could have hoped for. Problem is if this agreement doesn`t make it through HoC then it will make no difference.


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    #4297
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    So, the big question is where does this leave the Irish government ? Have Leo varadkar and Simon Coveney done well on behalf of the country or not ? Or does it matter as it looks likely that the HoC more than likely won't vote this through.

    It looks like the Irish government have done as well as they could have. I wouldn't be the biggest FG supporter but I think they have delivered on their part.


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    #4298
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    I can't see this getting through the House of Commons to be perfectly honest. It's a worst-of-both-worlds compromise that reflects the ridiculous reality of what they're trying to do.

    The Brexteers sound unhappy about it and the Remainers seem equally unhappy.

    New referendum seems to be about the only solution to this.
    But who would call another referendum, certainly not the tories.


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    #4299
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Starting gun has been fired on an attempt to start a vote of no confidence.
    https://twitter.com/andreajenkyns/status/1062804247362891776


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    #4300
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,864 ✭✭✭trellheim


    FOlks - remember - why did Cameron call the referendum - to quiet the headbangers. Cant see this meeting their needs. Since they lose nothing by voting it down . not sanguine here


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    #4301
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,158 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    First Up wrote: »
    Barnier press conference very interesting - and clear.

    Fair play to him. A triumph of process, unity and soft power. He has held the line magnificently throughout the last two years.
    blackcard wrote: »
    He was very clear in his support of Ireland's position. Some people have done a lot of good work in getting the EU to back us

    A triumph for the Department of Foreign Affairs and the diplomatic core. All involved went to bat for Ireland, and won.
    am i bovvered wrote: »
    I’m just trying to get a better understanding of the document.
    There was a lot of comments here mentioning that the EU had shafted us, am i correct in thinking that this position is now false. Now that people have studied the wording and hearing MBarniers press conference.

    Thanks

    You are fully correct. The EU stood by us and have delivered a final deal that aligns with and protects our interests in full.
    gunny123 wrote: »
    The eu use us as a pawn more like, they are not interested in tiny countries like us, remember the way were treated in the nice and lisbon referendums, and then the bail out ? We were just a stick used to beat the brits with.

    Brexit has given me a pride in the EU that I never had before. This entire shambles makes it clear where we want to be: inside the tent.
    listermint wrote: »
    None of it will fly .

    I just don't see it.

    That is their problem.


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    #4302
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,048 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    So, the big question is where does this leave the Irish government ? Have Leo varadkar and Simon Coveney done well on behalf of the country or not ? Or does it matter as it looks likely that the HoC more than likely won't vote this through.

    I think they have done very well.

    From the get go they have stressed the unique situation and importance of the open border.

    They are been very consistent in their dealings and have been very firm when it came to telling the UK that a border solution was for the UK to come up.

    They have kept their powder dry when they knew it was to be kept dry.
    And articulated their concerns very well when they need articulating

    Ireland may be a small player on the European stage but the government made sure the border was not some after though.


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    #4303
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    So am I reading this right?

    Its a UK wide backstop, not just the north?
    Until the future relationship becomes applicable, a single customs territory between the Union
    and the United Kingdom shall be established ("the single customs territory"). Accordingly,
    Northern Ireland is in the same customs territory as Great Britain.
    The single customs territory shall comprise:
    (a) the customs territory of the Union defined in Article 4 of Regulation (EU) No 952/2013; and
    (b) the customs territory of the United Kingdom.

    page 310 article 6 of the northern irelandireland protocal


    That might explain why many remain torries are rumoured to have cold feet shooting this down.


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    #4304
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,151 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    gunny123 wrote: »
    The eu use us as a pawn more like, they are not interested in tiny countries like us, remember the way were treated in the nice and lisbon referendums, and then the bail out ? We were just a stick used to beat the brits with.

    You mean the withdrawal agreement in which our interests appeared to have been looked after, and the two referendums in which they acknowledged our concerns and made amendments to those treaties which made them acceptable to us, that EU, which we're part of, that's not some faceless 3rd party?


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    #4305
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Enzokk wrote: »
    listermint wrote: »
    None of it will fly .

    I just don't see it.


    Yes, getting it through parliament is going to be tough or even impossible. The only option is either cancel the whole thing or no deal if they don't accept this as there is no other deal they can possibly get though.
    True but we now know what we are talking about. The Brexiteers will rant and rave but they can now be asked what exactly they propose as the alternative. Then people can compare.

    The DUP will walk away but that was a temporary phenomemon anyway and never the basis for a stable path.

    But plenty of blood-letting to come and UK politics are in for a rough ride.


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    #4306
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Well it's ours too.


    We can only hope for a second referendum and stay vote


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    #4307
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,048 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    trellheim wrote: »
    FOlks - remember - why did Cameron call the referendum - to quiet the headbangers. Cant see this meeting their needs. Since they lose nothing by voting it down . not sanguine here

    Totally agree

    This is just a red rag to the Brexiteers and the DUP


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    #4308
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,151 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    listermint wrote: »
    None of it will fly .

    I just don't see it.

    No, it won't be acceptable to any side of the commons.


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    #4309
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Fair play to him. A triumph of process, unity and soft power. He has held the line magnificently throughout the last two years.



    A triumph for the Department of Foreign Affairs and the diplomatic core. All involved went to bat for Ireland, and won.



    You are fully correct. The EU stood by us and have delivered a final deal that aligns with and protects our interests in full.



    Brexit has given me a pride in the EU that I never had before. This entire shambles makes it clear where we want to be: inside the tent.



    That is their problem.

    Not really their problem, if it doesn't fly in the HoC then it's a border by default surely.


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    #4310
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    I only see a push on her leadership and a bigger push for second referendum


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    #4311
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,158 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Not really their problem, if it doesn't fly in the HoC then it's a border by default surely.

    And let chaos reign. They'll be back cap in hand within five years.


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    #4312
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,557 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    And I should have added to my questions in my last post that however we feel the government did, if it's not accepted in the HoC is it all for naught ? And it just so happens FG are the government of the day, but regardless of who was the Irish government I'd have expected them to hold the line on the position of the border. Did I hear the clip right that the Taoiseach said that the dail would vote on the agreement ? I know all the other 27 need to agree to this also but are we required to have a vote regardless of what happens across the water ?


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    #4313
    hill16bhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    What possibility exists for sufficient abstentions so as the deal gets passed in parliament?

    My understanding is that the Daily Mail (under its new editor) supports the deal, as does previously arch hard Brexiteer Michael Gove.

    Liam Fox also made comments last week to the extent that if May struck a deal it should be supported.

    While the numbers don't look great for May, I wouldn't put it past her to get it through, by hook or by crook.

    The consequences of no deal will come sharply into view before any vote, and this could concentrate minds, even if what is on offer pleases nobody.

    Is there a possibility that Corbyn could impose a three-line whip on Labour MPs to vote against the deal as he did before to force them to vote for Article 50?


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    #4314
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,579 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    The EU is happy for the next step to be taken, depending on the vote in the HoC I would think.

    https://twitter.com/MichelBarnier/status/1062810685179129856?s=19


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    #4315
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    This whole sorry fiasco is what happens when you build lies upon lies and upon spin and bluster.

    Perhaps the new UK motto should be : "Oh! What A Tangled Web We Weave When First We Practice To Deceive"

    They could put it on the blue passports.

    Whatever you are doing in politics, you have to be honest and you have to deal with facts. That simply did not happen in the UK.


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    #4316
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,158 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    And I should have added to my questions in my last post that however we feel the government did, if it's not accepted in the HoC is it all for naught ? And it just so happens FG are the government of the day, but regardless of who was the Irish government I'd have expected them to hold the line on the position of the border. Did I hear the clip right that the Taoiseach said that the dail would vote on the agreement ? I know all the other 27 need to agree to this also but are we required to have a vote regardless of what happens across the water ?

    The EU have got HMG to agree to a deal favourable to the EU that protects Ireland's interests. To force the UK into a choice between this deal or the economic suicide of No Deal is a tremendous achievement. If they choose the latter option then they were even crazier than we thought possible and what's coming is what is required to reset their societal discourse.

    We may require a parliamentary vote, I'm not 100% sure.


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    #4317
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,151 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    The DUP being as logical and level headed as ever.

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1062756845180370949?s=19


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    #4318
    Tinder Surprise
    Registered Users Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭Tinder Surprise


    Hurrache wrote: »
    The DUP being as logical and level headed as ever.

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1062756845180370949?s=19

    Very Dangerous and inflammatory


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    #4319
    blackcard
    Registered Users Posts: 3,868 ✭✭✭blackcard


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    And I should have added to my questions in my last post that however we feel the government did, if it's not accepted in the HoC is it all for naught ? And it just so happens FG are the government of the day, but regardless of who was the Irish government I'd have expected them to hold the line on the position of the border. Did I hear the clip right that the Taoiseach said that the dail would vote on the agreement ? I know all the other 27 need to agree to this also but are we required to have a vote regardless of what happens across the water ?

    The EU have got HMG to agree to a deal favourable to the EU that protects Ireland's interests. To force the UK into a choice between this deal or the economic suicide of No Deal is a tremendous achievement. If they choose the latter option then they were even crazier than we thought possible and what's coming is what is required to reset their societal discourse.

    We may require a parliamentary vote, I'm not 100% sure.
    A parliamentary vote is not required but the government has decided that there will be a vote. I presume this is to ensure that all parties will be seen to approve the deal


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    #4320
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,158 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    She loses 10 DUP votes for this deal but gets 12 Lib Dem and 1 Green Party in all likelihood as that group - while they'd prefer a referendum - will take this rather than the chaos of No Deal imo. Means the question becomes whether Tory rebels can be offset by enough Labour / SNP votes to get her over the line. To vote no consigns the nation to economic chaos.

    It has an excellent chance of getting through imo.


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    #4321
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,012 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    I have been really impressed with the Irish Government in this mess, especially Simon Coveney who came across really well. For me to say that about a Fine Gael government is unreal


This discussion has been closed.
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