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Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

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    #5702
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    So some simple questions to the faux outrage church haters on here, from an athiest.

    Were you married in a church?
    Are your kids babtised?
    Did they make their communion?
    Are they confirmed?
    Do you regularly attend church occasions such as for taking these sacraments?
    Or do you stay true to your church hating principles and stay well clear of the church?

    Firstly, I am not a church hater, I am aethist & have no time for any organised religions. I do however believe in people's right to practise whatever faith they see fit to.

    I can answer the above, I am not married, if I ever do it won't be in a church.
    Don't have kids, if I do, they won't be christened or any of the following. My niece & nephew are not & will not be.
    I never attend church ceremonies, apart from funerals & weddings, & that is respect for the living people who invite me etc.

    I believe people's attitude towards the church is because of the hypocrisy of that church over the years. For them to try & tell people what to do & their faux concern for women & children after what they put them through...... That's the issue. That's why people have a problem with the church.

    How does an aethist have a problem with abortion anyway?


  • Options
    #5703
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Lots of posts here and not enough time to answer them all.

    The Yes side continue to bring up mother and baby homes. These homes are all extinct because of A. Abortion and the like and B. Wider families no longer feel ashamed about single mothers which of course is a positive thing. Church, state and the people worked together in olden days in Ireland. Famillies dumped babies and mothers in these homes to get rid of them.

    So some simple questions to the faux outrage church haters on here, from an athiest.

    Were you married in a church?
    Are your kids babtised?
    Did they make their communion?
    Are they confirmed?
    Do you regularly attend church occasions such as for taking these sacraments?
    Or do you stay true to your church hating principles and stay well clear of the church?

    I'm not expecting too many answers. Its possible to justify anything these days by hating the church. All I am expecting is even more faux outrage which if it could be harnessed would power Ireland for generations. The level of fake and likely hypocritical outrage is amusing at this stage.

    I suspect I could summarize most answers as follows by the way:
    I post on boards.ie saying I hate the church yet I attend significant church occassions. Once they are over I go back to hating the church.

    I had a civil wedding ceremony. They are growing in popularity year-on-year.

    I don’t have children but if I did, they wouldn’t be raised in any religion.

    If someone invites me to an event or has their funeral in a church, I’ll attend. That’s not my choice, it’s theirs. I don’t receive sacraments or say any of the prayers when attending.


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    #5704
    spookwoman
    Registered Users Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭spookwoman


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Lots of posts here and not enough time to answer them all.

    The Yes side continue to bring up mother and baby homes. These homes are all extinct because of A. Abortion and the like and B. Wider families no longer feel ashamed about single mothers which of course is a positive thing. Church, state and the people worked together in olden days in Ireland. Famillies dumped babies and mothers in these homes to get rid of them.

    So some simple questions to the faux outrage church haters on here, from an athiest.

    Were you married in a church?
    Are your kids babtised?
    Did they make their communion?
    Are they confirmed?
    Do you regularly attend church occasions such as for taking these sacraments?
    Or do you stay true to your church hating principles and stay well clear of the church?

    I'm not expecting too many answers. Its possible to justify anything these days by hating the church. All I am expecting is even more faux outrage which if it could be harnessed would power Ireland for generations. The level of fake and likely hypocritical outrage is amusing at this stage.

    I suspect I could summarize most answers as follows by the way:
    I post on boards.ie saying I hate the church yet I attend significant church occassions. Once they are over I go back to hating the church.

    Not married and if I did it would not be in a church
    No kids same wouldn't have them baptised, confirmed etc.
    If I get invited to a wedding or anything I attend because I was asked. Attending is for them not for me.

    I have little time for religion, I see it as something that has caused more wars and deaths than anything else. The church is also something that I see as a dictator trying to control the population. If someone wants to practice a religion that's their choice but I believe being a member of a religion should have about as much importance as being a member of a drama group. Religion should have no influence or say on politics, laws and how society should behave.


  • Options
    #5705
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    uptherebels wrote: »
    I'm not married, but if I do get married it will be a civil ceremony not any where near a church, I dont attend any ceremonies that are in in a church.

    Don't have kids, but if/when I do, they won't have any religious sacraments until they are old enough to choose for themselves.

    I don't attend a church for any reason.

    I don't hate the church or any religious people, only have disdain for those that try to impose their religious beliefs on me or want a non secular society.
    Edit.
    Just to add, for someone who is supposedly atheist you seem infatuated with the church and people interaction with.

    Nope sorry its not me that's infatuated. Its everyone else. Its an Irish obsession with the church I don't get and something I was addressing. No-one I know has any time for the church except when they want the church wedding and nice setting for photos or church sacraments because its what others do.
    Its a mob mentality.
    And if there's one thing I dislike its those who follow a mob mentality.


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    #5706
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Nope sorry its not me that's infatuated. Its everyone else. Its an Irish obsession with the church I don't get and something I was addressing. No-one I know has any time for the church except when they want the church wedding and nice setting for photos or church sacraments because its what others do.
    Its a mob mentality.
    And if there's one thing I dislike its those who follow a mob mentality.

    The only reason I see it needing addressing because of the church still wanting control over peoples lives.

    Why do you think it need addressing?


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    #5707
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Firstly, I am not a church hater, I am aethist & have no time for any organised religions. I do however believe in people's right to practise whatever faith they see fit to.

    I can answer the above, I am not married, if I ever do it won't be in a church.
    Don't have kids, if I do, they won't be christened or any of the following. My niece & nephew are not & will not be.
    I never attend church ceremonies, apart from funerals & weddings, & that is respect for the living people who invite me etc.

    I believe people's attitude towards the church is because of the hypocrisy of that church over the years. For them to try & tell people what to do & their faux concern for women & children after what they put them through...... That's the issue. That's why people have a problem with the church.

    How does an aethist have a problem with abortion anyway?

    I'm an athiest but also not a church hater like you. I'm tolerant towards people's beliefs but I don't spend my time hating religions. People are entitled to believe what they like or not as we are in a free country.

    To be for or against abortion has nothing to do with religion. People mostly come to personal conclusions on this.


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    #5708
    spookwoman
    Registered Users Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭spookwoman


    and so it begins

    Anti-abortion groups to target women at GPs
    Anti-abortion activists are rushing to create “crisis pregnancy centres” that will target women seeking terminations in the Republic next year.

    The revelation that activists have already started fundraising for such agencies, which will adopt tactics used by US anti-abortion groups, has led to cross-party calls for a ban on the harassment of women seeking abortions and medical staff performing them.

    Up to 20 Irish anti-abortion activists will be flown to the US this summer to be trained in tactics including “pavement counselling”, which can involve harassing women trying to access abortions outside hospitals or clinics.

    Activists have also started appealing for funds to set up crisis pregnancy clinics as near as possible to premises that will offer terminations in Ireland after the law is changed.…



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/anti-abortion-groups-to-target-women-at-gps-crfjl8ltf


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    #5709
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    spookwoman wrote: »
    and so it begins

    Anti-abortion groups to target women at GPs
    Anti-abortion activists are rushing to create “crisis pregnancy centres” that will target women seeking terminations in the Republic next year.

    The revelation that activists have already started fundraising for such agencies, which will adopt tactics used by US anti-abortion groups, has led to cross-party calls for a ban on the harassment of women seeking abortions and medical staff performing them.

    Up to 20 Irish anti-abortion activists will be flown to the US this summer to be trained in tactics including “pavement counselling”, which can involve harassing women trying to access abortions outside hospitals or clinics.

    Activists have also started appealing for funds to set up crisis pregnancy clinics as near as possible to premises that will offer terminations in Ireland after the law is changed.…



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/anti-abortion-groups-to-target-women-at-gps-crfjl8ltf

    Hmm. If they are following the US model there may be grounds to arrest them on coming back into Ireland under anti-terrorism laws.


  • Options
    #5710
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    The only reason I see it needing addressing because of the church still wanting control over peoples lives.

    Why do you think it need addressing?

    They don't want control. People are free to turn their back on the church any time. The church state a position and its up to people to adhere to it or not.

    My main point is for such hatred of the church, its still going strong. Very few people do not take sacraments for their children.

    The church only survives because of the people.


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    #5711
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    They don't want control. People are free to turn their back on the church any time. The church state a position and its up to people to adhere to to or not.

    My main point is for such hatred of the church, its still going strong. Very few people do not take sacraments for their children.

    The church only survives because of the people.

    They want a ban on people having choice. Did you miss that during the referendum? Removing choice is controlling.


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    #5712
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    I'm an athiest but also not a church hater like you. I'm tolerant towards people's beliefs but I don't spend my time hating religions. People are entitled to believe what they like or not as we are in a free country.

    To be for or against abortion has nothing to do with religion. People mostly come to personal conclusions on this.


    Most people against abortion are so because they believe the feotus is 'alive' when it is conceived. I believe we are born & then we die, there is nothing else, no soul etc.
    Until a foetus can survive outside the womb, I don't believe they are a living human being. I believe that because I believe there is nothing else, no greater power, nothing giving us life, no part of us that lives on when we die, so therefore no part of us alive, until we can survive ourselves.
    What is it that makes aethists anti abortion?


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    #5713
    spookwoman
    Registered Users Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭spookwoman


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    They don't want control. People are free to turn their back on the church any time. The church state a position and its up to people to adhere to it or not.

    My main point is for such hatred of the church, its still going strong. Very few people do not take sacraments for their children.

    The church only survives because of the people.
    It's only recently people are leaving the church but remember our parents were indoctrinated and many still expect the tradition to be passed on. Some people would remain just to have some peace in the family. Its also in our schools and its only in the last few years that some schools will accept unbaptized kids.
    Also you can't leave the church the feckers removed that option


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    #5714
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    spookwoman wrote: »
    and so it begins

    Anti-abortion groups to target women at GPs
    Anti-abortion activists are rushing to create “crisis pregnancy centres” that will target women seeking terminations in the Republic next year.

    The revelation that activists have already started fundraising for such agencies, which will adopt tactics used by US anti-abortion groups, has led to cross-party calls for a ban on the harassment of women seeking abortions and medical staff performing them.

    Up to 20 Irish anti-abortion activists will be flown to the US this summer to be trained in tactics including “pavement counselling”, which can involve harassing women trying to access abortions outside hospitals or clinics.

    Activists have also started appealing for funds to set up crisis pregnancy clinics as near as possible to premises that will offer terminations in Ireland after the law is changed.…



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/anti-abortion-groups-to-target-women-at-gps-crfjl8ltf

    I really couldn’t imagine such sh*te-hawking anti-social behaviour being tolerated here. Any remaining sympathy for their cause would go through the floor.


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    #5715
    spookwoman
    Registered Users Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭spookwoman


    dudara wrote: »
    I really couldn’t imagine such sh*te-hawking anti-social behaviour being tolerated here. Any remaining sympathy for their cause would go through the floor.
    Never know that lot from icbr pro life are still causing problems in Dublin


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    #5716
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    It wasnt me123 wrote: »
    When my daughter was born, to get into a local national school (in rural ireland, limited options) you had to be baptised. You had no option.

    The sacrements are then run through the school and the children do them as part of the class. Very difficult for a child to opt out and be different. I didn't care if she did them or not.

    Now she has a choice, I love that word. She says she is now an athiest, and I'm not far away from that also. She doesn't participate in any church ceremony unless specifically asked to attend.

    I won't be having a catholic funeral, I have discussed it with my family. I plan on being cremated and scattered and no prayers.

    What about you? In the interest of openess, are you going to answer your questions?

    I will answer them later.
    The point is I don't post realms and realms about hating and despising the church. I have no feelings good or bad towards the church in the context of this referendum and their standpoint is irrelevant to me.
    My position on the referendum is/was clear. I'm strongly in favour of abortion in the cases of FFA, rape, incest and serious risk to the mothers life. The 12 week unrestricted abortion provison to deal with a small number of rape cases is a blunt instrument and will lead to the termination of far more innocent healthy foetuses than hard case one. My position is similar to Sein Fein policy currently although theirs may change. And Sein Fein are about as far removed from the RCC as you can get. I was hoping if the No side won better more targetted legislation would be proposed. Instead Simon Harris, Vatadkar and co suggested Vote Yes or it would be another 35 years beford there was another chance. And they say the No side do scaremongering!


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    #5717
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    My position on the referendum is/was clear. I'm strongly in favour of abortion in the cases of FFA, rape, incest and serious risk to the mothers life. The 12 week unrestricted abortion provison to deal with a small number of rape cases is a blunt instrument and will lead to the termination of far more innocent healthy foetuses than hard case one.

    What is it about rape cases that makes you believe they are not innocent healthy fetuses?


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    #5718
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    bubblypop wrote: »
    What is it about rape cases that makes you believe they are not innocent healthy fetuses?


    Too much attention makes people crave more. All these circles have been completed already.


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    #5719
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    Too much attention makes people crave more. All these circles have been completed already.

    You will have to explain that a bit I'm afraid!


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    #5720
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    bubblypop wrote: »
    You will have to explain that a bit I'm afraid!

    Same conversations repeated. One of the same participants.


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    #5721
    Wrongway1985
    Registered Users Posts: 6,350 ✭✭✭Wrongway1985


    Graces7 wrote: »

    The cheering was appallingly inappropriate and offensive. What was being voted on WAS abortion. Sounded like a football crowd.

    That was quite clear, Your assertion is to make it sound like people were celebrating the prospect of having an actual abortion which I mean c'mon that is laughable I feel sorry for you using that as another excuse to justify being on the wrong side of history.


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    #5722
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭swampgas


    dudara wrote: »
    I really couldn’t imagine such sh*te-hawking anti-social behaviour being tolerated here. Any remaining sympathy for their cause would go through the floor.

    I agree, Ireland is a very small, well connected place compared to large chunks of the US. Ireland is also far more socially cohesive; we are inclined to seek and respect broad levels of consensus. Most Irish No voters would, I imagine, be very uncomfortable with US-style anti-abortion activism. I just don't see it working here, there would probably be a fairly severe backlash against those involved in it at community level too.


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    #5723
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    dudara wrote: »
    I really couldn’t imagine such sh*te-hawking anti-social behaviour being tolerated here. Any remaining sympathy for their cause would go through the floor.

    They don't want sympathy from the public, what they want is committed nutters that they can fund.

    I'm pretty sure the existing public order laws could deal with these numpties if they started their american style carry on


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    #5724
    spookwoman
    Registered Users Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭spookwoman


    Bambi wrote: »
    They don't want sympathy from the public, what they want is committed nutters that they can fund.

    I'm pretty sure the existing public order laws could deal with these numpties if they started their american style carry on
    Not much being done in dublin to stop the nutters. they are out every day


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    #5725
    Cupcake_Crisis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,448 ✭✭✭✭Cupcake_Crisis


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Lots of posts here and not enough time to answer them all.

    The Yes side continue to bring up mother and baby homes. These homes are all extinct because of A. Abortion and the like and B. Wider families no longer feel ashamed about single mothers which of course is a positive thing. Church, state and the people worked together in olden days in Ireland. Famillies dumped babies and mothers in these homes to get rid of them.

    So some simple questions to the faux outrage church haters on here, from an athiest.

    Were you married in a church?
    Are your kids babtised?
    Did they make their communion?
    Are they confirmed?
    Do you regularly attend church occasions such as for taking these sacraments?
    Or do you stay true to your church hating principles and stay well clear of the church?

    I'm not expecting too many answers. Its possible to justify anything these days by hating the church. All I am expecting is even more faux outrage which if it could be harnessed would power Ireland for generations. The level of fake and likely hypocritical outrage is amusing at this stage.

    I suspect I could summarize most answers as follows by the way:
    I post on boards.ie saying I hate the church yet I attend significant church occassions. Once they are over I go back to hating the church.

    I honestly don’t understand why we’re still harping on about the same thing, but to answer your questions-

    I don’t like the church, I’d consider myself an atheist. However I will still attend a religious ceremony out of respect for family and friends and I would expect them to show me the same respect when it comes to any non religious milestones I have.

    It really is very simple. It’s about being tolerant towards other people’s life choices. I don’t have to agree with them or invite them into my own life but I can be respectful towards them.


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    #5726
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    My position on the referendum is/was clear. I'm strongly in favour of abortion in the cases of FFA, rape, incest and serious risk to the mothers life. The 12 week unrestricted abortion provison to deal with a small number of rape cases is a blunt instrument and will lead to the termination of far more innocent healthy foetuses than hard case one. My position is similar to Sein Fein policy currently although theirs may change. And Sein Fein are about as far removed from the RCC as you can get.


    There were definitely those who voted Yes who had issues with the 12 weeks. Indeed, this is being used by the No side as reason for blocking forthcoming legislation. But it can also be understood as people accepting 12 weeks because of the reality of the situation (12 week pills being available, as well as being impossible to deal with rape/incest without having a general 12 week period). You might fill us in on how the legislation might have been worded to allow those pregnant because of rape/incest to terminate.


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    I was hoping if the No side won better more targetted legislation would be proposed. Instead Simon Harris, Vatadkar and co suggested Vote Yes or it would be another 35 years beford there was another chance. And they say the No side do scaremongering!


    I think this is because the only time for the last 35 years that the No side mentioned anything about targeted legislation was in the run-up to the referendum. 35 years and not a word. The only time that legislation was brought in was when the 8th amendment was shown to be a horrific and unworkable law, and these legislative acts were brought in by those on the Yes side. But please, by all means, tell us what targeted legislation you would have brought in (perhaps based on previous suggestions by the No side over the last 35 years).


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    #5727
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    swampgas wrote: »
    I agree, Ireland is a very small, well connected place compared to large chunks of the US. Ireland is also far more socially cohesive; we are inclined to seek and respect broad levels of consensus. Most Irish No voters would, I imagine, be very uncomfortable with US-style anti-abortion activism. I just don't see it working here, there would probably be a fairly severe backlash against those involved in it at community level too.

    I agree. I have a family member who is, quite frankly, a total weirdo. He was a No voter that most No voters bear little or no resemblance to. On hearing about an US abortion clinic shooting on the news a good few years back in the presence of family, he said “Good!”. His utterance was met with universal disgust and there would have been other pro-life family members in the room. That kind of extremist viewpoint is anathema to most Irish people.


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    #5728
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,812 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    dudara wrote: »
    I really couldn’t imagine such sh*te-hawking anti-social behaviour being tolerated here. Any remaining sympathy for their cause would go through the floor.

    Their practices are only existent in the US because they grew organically over decades and through legal frameworks and court rulings that have since established precedents and protections for them.

    Ireland is a clean slate.

    This is possibly one of the best reasons abortions should be provided at hospitals and not outpatient facilities: no matter what you go into a planned parenthood for, you’re attacked, yelled at, spit on, and the locations are all to regularly vandalized or firebombed. Nobody is going to do that do a general hospital.


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    #5729
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Overheal wrote: »
    Their practices are only existent in the US because they grew organically over decades and through legal frameworks and court rulings that have since established precedents and protections for them.

    Ireland is a clean slate.

    Hopefully the high court quickly dispenses that challenge to the Referendum results and indicates it's attitude to future legal obstructionism - you can be sure it's coming, US-backed fetus filchers are very experienced and seemingly have infinite resources and time on their hands, unlike the ACLU an Planned Parenthood in the US.

    In some ways with the referendum, the 'simple' part is done and now comes the slog through the morass to getting legislation and infrastructure in place. The fetus filchers will be blocking anything and everything they can with each breath they take.


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    #5730
    somefeen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭somefeen


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Hopefully the high court quickly dispenses that challenge to the Referendum results and indicates it's attitude to future legal obstructionism - you can be sure it's coming, US-backed fetus filchers are very experienced and seemingly have infinite resources and time on their hands, unlike the ACLU an Planned Parenthood in the US.

    In some ways with the referendum, the 'simple' part is done and now comes the slog through the morass to getting legislation and infrastructure in place. The fetus filchers will be blocking anything and everything they can with each breath they take.

    To be fair, aside from the outside backing of those campaigns that's just democracy and freedom of speech. If the government is making laws you don't agree with you should be well within your rights to oppose them.


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    #5731
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    Overheal wrote: »
    Nobody is going to do that do a general hospital.

    Never say never



    cbaf2d75-bcb5-4880-91e5-04b5978eb8b5_zpspknwehix.jpg


    I blocked out the name in case there are issues with that.


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