Crazy price for Student Rail tickets

johnnyc · 14-07-2005 8:49am

shltter wrote:

France is a socialist state when did that happen has anyone told Chiraq what are the other socialist states is berlusconni a socialist.I suppose Bertie is a socialist as well along with comrade harney :rolleyes:

what you are suggesting was tried by the tories in the UK and it has been an unmitigated disaster from a passenger safety point of view from the taxpayers point of view where the subsidy to the now private operators has increased 5 fold

there is no ryanair style rail operator in the UK fares have risen the unions are actually stronger than ever they were under BR. Employees have little loyalty to the company they are currently employed by

the ryanair model can not be just transfered tp different modes of transport just because you want it to

there is little or no spare capacity on irish rail to offload at cheaper prices

shltter france is run by socialist parties even chirac party is made up of socialist. So in other words france is run by trade unions @ the moment. You can take the same look @ schroder social democratic party. No what i am suggesting is some goverment control especially with the railways and signals unlike the uk (railtrack). The goverment would deal also with the different company parties (irish rail , a ryanair type company etc) making sure they are delievering real goals to the irish consumer. i believe in investment when theres proper competition not when theres a Monopoly?

MG · 14-07-2005 9:03am

johnnyc wrote:

shltter france is run by socialist parties even chirac party is made up of socialist. So in other words france is run by trade unions @ the moment. You can take the same look @ schroder social democratic party. No what i am suggesting is some goverment control especially with the railways and signals unlike the uk (railtrack). The goverment would deal also with the different company parties (irish rail , a ryanair type company etc) making sure they are delievering real goals to the irish consumer. i believe in investment when theres proper competition not when theres a Monopoly?

Damn those German socialists! Aldi and Lidl should be thrown out of the country for spreading socialist idealogy. Don't they know that we, the Irish, invented competition? :rolleyes:

OK, enough barstool economics - I'm just waiting to hear "it's all about bums on seats". Anyone who has been to France and Germany would know that in most consumer areas competition is fierce in these countries and far more competitive that Ireland. We lag way behind these countries in deregulating industries. And their public services are better to boot. Possibly the only area where we are more liberal economically is in employment legislation which is far less restrictive here.

shltter · 14-07-2005 2:41pm

johnnyc wrote:

shltter france is run by socialist parties even chirac party is made up of socialist. So in other words france is run by trade unions @ the moment. You can take the same look @ schroder social democratic party. No what i am suggesting is some goverment control especially with the railways and signals unlike the uk (railtrack). The goverment would deal also with the different company parties (irish rail , a ryanair type company etc) making sure they are delievering real goals to the irish consumer. i believe in investment when theres proper competition not when theres a Monopoly?

well you have proven to me that you know as much about politics as you do about public transport

so you are suggesting exactly the system that is in the UK except you want the infrastructure to remain under government control

railtrack no longer exists it was replaced by a not for profit company network rail

it has been an absolute disaster there is no competition if you have to travel from A to B you cannot decide who you want to travel with you just have to use the operator on that part of the network

In 5 or 7 years the license for that section will come up and other companies may apply for the license

experience in the UK is that there is very little competition for alot of the licenses and the companies applying for the contract just look for more and more subsidies to continue to operate the trains
Also unlike the previous state owned operator who just soldiered on when they did not get the money that they sought private companies will not accept that this has led to a five fold increase in subsidies since privatisation

so anyways would you invest in the new infrastructure monopoly

johnnyc · 14-07-2005 2:58pm

the probs started when the the goverment gave control to railtrack back in thatcher era. then the blair goverment just took control over the railways from railtrack about 2-3years ago after all the railway accidents. If you read my post i would have goverment control of the tracks and have slots for the different rail companies!

Zaph0d · 14-07-2005 3:02pm

Virgin Rail London-Birmingham (a much shorter journey than Dublin-Cork)
"Saver Single" ticket £33.90 STG , which is much the same as the fare on Dublin-Cork

This is in the liberal-economic UK.

You really need to find a working alternative in another country before you advocate a different system.

MarkoP11 · 14-07-2005 3:20pm

Zaph0d wrote:

Virgin Rail London-Birmingham (a much shorter journey than Dublin-Cork)
"Saver Single" ticket £33.90 STG , which is much the same as the fare on Dublin-Cork

Walking into Manchester station (180miles vs 166) at 7am and ask for a open return to London, you are looking at paying through the nose, buy 14 days in advance and watch the price plummet but avaibility is limited

Calina · 14-07-2005 3:28pm

johnnyc wrote:

If you read my post i would have goverment control of the tracks and have slots for the different rail companies!

Yes, and in practice, this would work how? See, nothing you have suggested has given me any indication as to how the consumers would be benefitted - some of your plans have already been criticised for being of net disadvantage to current users of the train system without bring any net advantages to the system. It has already been pointed out to you that your privatisation/rail franchising plans have far too much in common with the fiasco that is rail in the UK to be credible and personally, I doubt your government body would have any teeth to enforce SLAs since you appear to be completely against government intervention in business as a matter of principle.

Also, if you knew anything at all about the politics of France, you would not be calling Jacques Chirac and his ilk leftwing.

John R · 14-07-2005 3:49pm

The UK is the perfect example of how privitisation and fragmentation does not give any more consumer choice or competition.

For the vast majority of journeys there is no choice of operator. The cost base of operations incresed by a vast amount with the splitting up of BR into different companies all with their own management structure and the vast network of accountants needed to keep track of the maze of different revenues, charges and disputes that arise constantly.

I can think of only one inter-city journey across the whole network where a passenger has a choice of two reasonably similar services from different companies namely London to Glasgow and they take completely different routes. For every line, there is one operator for each service, there are certain lines where two or more will serve certain stations but the overall journeys will be different. For at least 90% of all journeys made there is no passenger choice over what operator to use.

The whole idea of a competing company running ryanair style on a few profitable point to points as well as an existing operator is gibberish, it would not be cheaper for anyone involved. You cannot just go into a shop and buy a few trains and slap them on a line and off you go.

MarkoP11 · 14-07-2005 4:08pm

John R wrote:

You cannot just go into a shop and buy a few trains and slap them on a line and off you go.

Off the self is available in Europe but as the UK has shown open access has been hit and miss, many companies have tried and failed to even gets slots allocated, some even brought trains and where refused

The only route where this would be possible would be Dublin Belfast since it crosses a international border. The network is just too small to get in different operators, its hard to imagine that costs would go down, the only thing that will drive down ticket prices is economies of scale, bums on seats

Calina · 14-07-2005 4:10pm

MarkoP11 wrote:

The only route where this would be possible would be Dublin Belfast since it crosses a international border.

Not sure I follow the logic here...can you explain further why the existance of a border across the Dublin Belfast line makes is possible when it's not possible on Dublin Cork?

MarkoP11 · 14-07-2005 4:35pm

Calina wrote:

Not sure I follow the logic here...can you explain further why the existance of a border across the Dublin Belfast line makes is possible when it's not possible on Dublin Cork?

Open access EU rules only apply to international services

Calina · 14-07-2005 4:55pm

MarkoP11 wrote:

Open access EU rules only apply to international services

Okay point taken. Open access within Ireland would not be impossible were the political will there to impose it and or legislate for it.

cdebru · 14-07-2005 6:31pm

Calina wrote:

Okay point taken. Open access within Ireland would not be impossible were the political will there to impose it and or legislate for it.

it would be difficult though especially on the single track lines even on the belfast line with the dart there is little or no capacity for more trains

Metrobest · 14-07-2005 9:21pm

The point is, Ireland has an opportunity to avoid the mistakes made in Britain. This would mean allowing one company operate the nationally-important intercity routes to Cork, Galway and Belfast. Comparisons with the UK are spurious - for a start, theirs is a much more complex network, in a far more populated country. How could there be confusion if Connex, for example, operated all intercity routes while IE was allowed mismanage the "stoptrains"?

The reality is, trains to Cork, Galway and Belfast are too expensive and do not give value for money to the taxpayers and consumers: they are slow (Cork line is slowerthan ten years ago!), prone to poor punctuality, shabby and provide terrible customer service. I believe one private operator could do a better job: more efficient trains, better timetables, fewer staff, cheaper tickets, better catering, more comfort - AND MORE PASSENGERS on trains!!!

I'm sure Irish Rail luvvies are going to come on and talk about IE's "improvements" in this, that and the other; but here's the bottom line: the standard is far below the norms you expect in other EU countries, many of which are poorer than Ireland. And it's not about how much money you pump into the network, or the size of the subsidy. I do not accept that rail travel needs a state subsidy: the profitable routes should be able to fund the public service ones. For example, ten years ago the Dutch NS was propped up by a huge subsidy; following a radical restructuring, it turned a profit. Recent cost-cutting measures include a 50c surcharge if you choose not to buy a ticket from the user-friendly, efficient ticket machines that are scattered all over the large stations. That gives the staff more time to look after customers who need their help.

As a semi-state monopoly in its current form, Irish Rail has no incentive to deliver value to taxpayers. In fact, its main incentive is to maintain its overgenerous subsidies by all means neccessary, so that it can protect its workers' "jobs for life", even when those jobs are wasteful and without function.

Victor · 14-07-2005 11:20pm

To throw a cat among the pigeons.

MarkoP11 wrote:

Open access EU rules only apply to international services

How about Belfast-Cork? Although it would probably not compete very well against Aer Arann.

SeanW · 15-07-2005 3:01am

Trust me, I'm no fan of IE management.

My personal opinion is that IE staff are pretty good, and their PW department and maintenance effectively kept the railways alive with next to nothing from the government.

Where Irish Rail is let down is by its grotesquely incompetent management.

Their fares and ticketing policies are nothing short incoherent, and more or less everything they've purchased since the breakup of CIE has been a complete disaster. 201 locomotives that don't dont do HEP properly, the DeDietrich crap coaches that suck the life out of said 201s, break down, go on fire, jostle like crazy, the 2700 crap that break down, break up and generally fall to bits, all for no reason, the 2900s that jostle, rock, roll and generally shake your f***ing guts out of place, the fact that IE just extended their ****ing contract and got 36 more of these, their choice to deploy Commuter railcars on Intercity lines and spin a web of lies to any receptive local media, the Evel Knievel sized canyon between some platforms and the floor levels of their "modern" DMUs ... What's more their catering is widely regarded as a being a complete disaster - AND it seems to be getting worse as the fares climb from the ridiculous to the sublime.

Am I 5 miles up Irish Rail's ****? No bloody way. But I have yet to see what breaking Ireland's rail network up into bite-sized chunks is going to do for anyone.

Crazy price for Student Rail tickets

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