Does anyone actually believe that Gerry Adams wasn't in the IRA?

FTA69 · 17-09-2019 9:06pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

At least McGuinness had the stones to own up, Adams is a spineless jellyfish.

People always say this but McGuinness was a convicted IRA member, spent time in prison in Portlaoise and admitted his membership as he was being sent down. Adams was never convicted of membership so is unlikely to admit he was a member of an illegal organisation. While leading Sinn Féin he pursued a strategy of building a separate political alternative over a period of many years, tagging himself as an IRA member would hardly be conducive to that.

It’s largely irrelevant now and to be honest it’s a boring topic when some journalist thinks they’re being clever by asking him that question. He wasn’t convicted of it therefore he won’t say he was.

End of story really.

Danzy · 17-09-2019 9:07pm

Tree Provo files on Adams.

LoughNeagh2017 · 17-09-2019 9:38pm

If a war ever started again in my life time I would sign up for membership so that I could die a hero, the most visited grave in my graveyard is the IRA members who got blown up by their own bomb, that tells us that you get no thanks for being a law abiding man, their grave will be kept in pristine condition for hundreds of years.

Sinbad_NI · 17-09-2019 10:25pm

niallers1 wrote: »

The RUC, PSNI, Gardai, MI5, MI6, and all the rest of British Intelligence have never been able to prove he was in the IRA even though they have all the resources in the world available to them.. They would have loved to have been able to prove this but the proof isn't there.

Alternatively, in the real world....
No sane person would have grassed on him in the early 70 / 80s as they'd get rough justice dished out. He's obviously not stupid and kept himself well separated from the low ranks that got picked up and are more likely to turn.
Then later 80s and beyond it was in the interests of all to keep him in position as he was seen as an important figure and moving in the right direction and could take the rest of the organisation with him. Huge risk that some even more hardliners could have moved in and hey ho another few decades of murders and bombs. Jessie **** no.

realitykeeper · 17-09-2019 10:32pm

If he says he was not in the IRA, I believe him. A few years ago, a particular Minister for justice said that if the Garda Commissioner says so and so was in the IRA or involved in a particular crime, then the Commissioner`s opinion should be considered fact. This is the type of prejudice that makes me believe Gerry Adams.

Milosmith · 17-09-2019 10:34pm

I heard he was in the Professional IRA

SafeSurfer · 17-09-2019 10:54pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

If he says he was not in the IRA, I believe him. A few years ago, a particular Minister for justice said that if the Garda Commissioner says so and so was in the IRA or involved in a particular crime, then the Commissioner`s opinion should be considered fact. This is the type of prejudice that makes me believe Gerry Adams.

It would be hard to know whether to believe an organization which pretended one of its members was a paedophile or an organization which pretended none of its members were.

holyhead · 17-09-2019 11:16pm

I would imagine legal implications of admitting IRA membership would act as the context for his denials. I'm more curious as to what role he played in the disappearance of Jean McConville. Both Dolours Price and Brendan Hughes both state that Adams had a hand in her disappearance.
Lets say she was passing on information to the British Army where does that leave double agent Freddie Scappaticci. The theory is that his killing would indeed be confirmation that he was a double agent and therefore given his position as head of the nutting squad would be a huge embarrassment to the IRA.

kildare lad · 18-09-2019 8:21am

I think once Adams denied it , he kept dening it for the rest of his life . It's hardly groundbreaking

lola85 · 18-09-2019 8:28am

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

If a war ever started again in my life time I would sign up for membership so that I could die a hero, the most visited grave in my graveyard is the IRA members who got blown up by their own bomb, that tells us that you get no thanks for being a law abiding man, their grave will be kept in pristine condition for hundreds of years.

I’d say the 3,4,5 year old graves of children blown up by the IRA are visited every day too I heartbroken families.

Yeah real brave hero’s alright.

All for what? A piece of land.

Phoebas · 18-09-2019 8:35am

Deleted User wrote: »

PS: Hilarious that this is being discussed in 2019.

And yet, here you are, discussing it in 2019.

weldoninhio · 18-09-2019 9:29am

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Do you see any hypocrisy in a known liar consistently calling for a truth and reconciliation commission?

If he took the risk of telling the truth it would be a very powerful statement and throw down the gauntlet to others. Instead he chooses to continue to lie.

The UK will NEVER allow a truth and reconciliation commission. Watched No Stone Unturned last night. Documentary about the Loughinisland atrocity during World Cup 1994. They Brits knew it was going to happen, knew/know who was behind it, no one ever charged. The gunman lives a few miles from where he murdered 6 innocent people watching Ireland vs Italy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kX_319hrfI

JohnnyFlash · 18-09-2019 9:33am

As an aside, I know a good few people who have met him over the years, and all of them have mentioned how ‘off’ he is as a person. He gives people the creeps when they meet him. The twitter persona was a very carefully crafted one.

begsbyOnaTrain · 18-09-2019 9:38am

Deleted User wrote: »

If IRA membership is the worst his opponents can throw at him (before they put on their poppies to commemorate all sorts of British thugs, of course), they must be desperate.

Ah I see you're of the noble intellectual tradition of George Dubya. You're either with us or against us.

SafeSurfer · 18-09-2019 9:46am

holyhead wrote: »

I would imagine legal implications of admitting IRA membership would act as the context for his denials. I'm more curious as to what role he played in the disappearance of Jean McConville. Both Dolours Price and Brendan Hughes both state that Adams had a hand in her disappearance.
Lets say she was passing on information to the British Army where does that leave double agent Freddie Scappaticci. The theory is that his killing would indeed be confirmation that he was a double agent and therefore given his position as head of the nutting squad would be a huge embarrassment to the IRA.

I thought stakeknife was just a British agent who was simultaneously head of IRA counter intelligence rather than a double agent. The IRA was heavily infiltrated with informers and agents to the highest levels especially towards the cessation of violence. It really was a rotten organization with powerful members having comrades tortured and killed as “touts” to cover up their own child sex abuse.

Portsalon · 18-09-2019 10:31am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

As an aside, I know a good few people who have met him over the years, and all of them have mentioned how ‘off’ he is as a person. He gives people the creeps when they meet him. The twitter persona was a very carefully crafted one.

Not to mention an ego the size of Mount Everest!

Look how annoyed he got recently when one of his deranged scribblings wasn't fawned upon sufficiently by some fellow members of his cult.

Gerry Adams attacks Sinn Fein TDs for not pushing his Irish unity leaflet.

Woke Hogan · 18-09-2019 10:46am

begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »

Ah I see you're of the noble intellectual tradition of George Dubya. You're either with us or against us.

He's still fighting the good fight of 1916. Heroic stuff.

Galwayguy35 · 18-09-2019 10:57am

I think he would have been better off to have done like Martin McG and admitted years ago that he was in the IRA, it was a tough time to be a catholic/nationalist back in the 1970s getting burned out of their houses and shot by soldiers so people would have seen how he like many other young men would have wanted to join up.

maccored · 18-09-2019 11:21am

lola85 wrote: »

I’d say the 3,4,5 year old graves of children blown up by the IRA are visited every day too I heartbroken families.

Yeah real brave hero’s alright.

All for what? A piece of land.

If you think it was all for a piece of land then maybe you shouldnt be commenting?

maccored · 18-09-2019 11:41am

blanch152 wrote: »

There have indeed been some notable posters strenuously denying the reality.

So you agree that Gerry was a member of the IRA and lied about it?

what are you on about this time? If in doubt make it up?

As I have ALWAYS said, imo Adams wasnt technically in the IRA, as his job was to build up the political wing and therefore couldnt be seen to be part of the paramilitary wing.

Technically not a part, as he probably didnt sign up in any way - but in reality he was involved in the war against the british as much as anyone in the IRA was

OMM 0000 · 18-09-2019 11:43am

I'm going to defend Gerry a little bit here.

There is an organisation in Ireland called the IPSC. It's the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign.

I went to quite a few of their meetings, their piss ups, and more.

But I never considered myself a member and I never officially joined.

I was just there as I was interested in their side of things, wanted to better understand these people, and I thought why not go along.

Perhaps Gerry feels something like this.

begsbyOnaTrain · 18-09-2019 11:45am

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I'm going to defend Gerry a little bit here.

There is an organisation in Ireland called the IPSC. It's the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign.

I went to quite a few of their meetings, their piss ups, and more.

But I never considered myself a member and I never officially joined.

I was just there as I was interested in their side of things, wanted to better understand these people, and I thought why not go along.

Perhaps Gerry feels something like this.

Might be comparable if you ordered the murder of some people while at the piss-ups?

OMM 0000 · 18-09-2019 11:47am

begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »

Might be comparable if you ordered the murder of some people while at the piss-ups?

A few of the people at the IPSC were extremists.

My point is there is a technicality on what constitutes membership.

JohnnyFlash · 18-09-2019 12:06pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

A few of the people at the IPSC were extremists.

My point is there is a technicality on what constitutes membership.

The IRA were hardly going to give you a membership card, badge, and 4 membership magazines a year for signing up.

A growing number of former senior members of the IRA have stated that not only was Adams a member, but that he was close to being the head honcho during much of the 70’s. Ed Moloney’s wonderful Secret History of the IRA goes into far more detail around this.

SafeSurfer · 18-09-2019 12:09pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »

Might be comparable if you ordered the murder of some people while at the piss-ups?

A few of the people at the IPSC were extremists.

My point is there is a technicality on what constitutes membership.

There is no technicality. Adams appears in numerous photographs in the honour guard uniform of the IRA carrying the coffin of dead IRA members where all the other pall bearers are IRA members.
The beret and gloves aren’t Sinn Fein paraphernalia they are IRA paraphernalia.

Adams wrote in An Phoblacht under the pseudonym “Brownie” where he states “I am an IRA volunteer”. His claims that “Brownie” was a pen named used by many writers has been dismissed by even his defenders and prison notes smuggled into prison addressed to “Brownie” were delivered only to Adams.

Adams represented the provisional IRA at a meeting in London with the Northern Ireland Secretary of State at which, according to Sean Mc Stiofan in his book “Memoirs of a Revolutionary” only IRA members were present.

Adams also lies about the Jean Mc Conville murder claiming he was in prison at the time of her killing when in fact she was murdered 6 months before his imprisonment.

maccored · 18-09-2019 12:27pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

There is no technicality. Adams appears in numerous photographs in the honour guard uniform of the IRA carrying the coffin of dead IRA members where all the other pall bearers are IRA members.
The beret and gloves aren’t Sinn Fein paraphernalia they are IRA paraphernalia.

Adams wrote in An Phoblacht under the pseudonym “Brownie” where he states “I am an IRA volunteer”. His claims that “Brownie” was a pen named used by many writers has been dismissed by even his defenders and prison notes smuggled into prison addressed to “Brownie” were delivered only to Adams.

Adams represented the provisional IRA at a meeting in London with the Northern Ireland Secretary of State at which, according to Sean Mc Stiofan in his book “Memoirs of a Revolutionary” only IRA members were present.

Adams also lies about the Jean Mc Conville murder claiming he was in prison at the time of her killing when in fact she was murdered 6 months before his imprisonment.

look lads - in reality, if there was hard evidence that Adams was in the IRA he would have been convicted as he was one of the most scrutinised people in the north. that evidence - bar hearsay - doesnt exist. If you actually believe in democracy, then Im afraid you'll just have to accept Gerry Adam's insistence that he wasnt in the IRA.

osarusan · 18-09-2019 12:35pm

maccored wrote: »

If you actually believe in democracy, then Im afraid you'll just have to accept Gerry Adam's insistence that he wasnt in the IRA.

Why democracy? Innocent until proven guilty I can understand, but what's the link with democracy?

I believe 100% that Adams was in the IRA, and I guess there are only a handful of people who genuinely believe he never was.

Does that mean I cannot believe in democracy too?

SafeSurfer · 18-09-2019 12:49pm

maccored wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

There is no technicality. Adams appears in numerous photographs in the honour guard uniform of the IRA carrying the coffin of dead IRA members where all the other pall bearers are IRA members.
The beret and gloves aren’t Sinn Fein paraphernalia they are IRA paraphernalia.

Adams wrote in An Phoblacht under the pseudonym “Brownie” where he states “I am an IRA volunteer”. His claims that “Brownie” was a pen named used by many writers has been dismissed by even his defenders and prison notes smuggled into prison addressed to “Brownie” were delivered only to Adams.

Adams represented the provisional IRA at a meeting in London with the Northern Ireland Secretary of State at which, according to Sean Mc Stiofan in his book “Memoirs of a Revolutionary” only IRA members were present.

Adams also lies about the Jean Mc Conville murder claiming he was in prison at the time of her killing when in fact she was murdered 6 months before his imprisonment.

look lads - in reality, if there was hard evidence that Adams was in the IRA he would have been convicted as he was one of the most scrutinised people in the north. that evidence - bar hearsay - doesnt exist. If you actually believe in democracy, then Im afraid you'll just have to accept Gerry Adam's insistence that he wasnt in the IRA.

Evidence necessary for a conviction for IRA membership in a court of law is quite different from evidence that he was a member of the IRA. Thousands of IRA members have never been convicted of IRA membership. It doesn’t mean they were never in the IRA. Many guilty people are not convicted in court but there is little doubt of their guilt.

I believe firmly in democracy and I don’t for a moment accept Gerry Adams insistence that he wasn’t in the IRA.

OMM 0000 · 18-09-2019 1:04pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

There is no technicality. Adams appears in numerous photographs in the honour guard uniform of the IRA carrying the coffin of dead IRA members where all the other pall bearers are IRA members.
The beret and gloves aren’t Sinn Fein paraphernalia they are IRA paraphernalia.

Adams wrote in An Phoblacht under the pseudonym “Brownie” where he states “I am an IRA volunteer”. His claims that “Brownie” was a pen named used by many writers has been dismissed by even his defenders and prison notes smuggled into prison addressed to “Brownie” were delivered only to Adams.

Adams represented the provisional IRA at a meeting in London with the Northern Ireland Secretary of State at which, according to Sean Mc Stiofan in his book “Memoirs of a Revolutionary” only IRA members were present.

Adams also lies about the Jean Mc Conville murder claiming he was in prison at the time of her killing when in fact she was murdered 6 months before his imprisonment.

Does he claim to have been involved with the IRA, e.g. representing them?

Tony EH · 18-09-2019 1:08pm

Even Adams knows that this line is nonsense at this stage.

But, it doesn't matter any more and the vast majority of people don't care anyway.

YFlyer · 18-09-2019 1:11pm

I doubt he was the IRA kingpin. He couldn't promise that one of his nephews be safe in the North.

maccored · 18-09-2019 1:36pm

osarusan wrote: »

Why democracy? Innocent until proven guilty I can understand, but what's the link with democracy?

I believe 100% that Adams was in the IRA, and I guess there are only a handful of people who genuinely believe he never was.

Does that mean I cannot believe in democracy too?

Right - hearsay works better for you then i see

SafeSurfer · 18-09-2019 1:41pm

maccored wrote: »

osarusan wrote: »

Why democracy? Innocent until proven guilty I can understand, but what's the link with democracy?

I believe 100% that Adams was in the IRA, and I guess there are only a handful of people who genuinely believe he never was.

Does that mean I cannot believe in democracy too?

Right - hearsay works better for you then i see

What do want? A beaten confession in a Divis flat which was enough to condemn scores of IRA victims to their deaths? Hearsay was evidence enough for the IRA but Adams is entitled the benefit of a doubt that exists only in the minds of slavish devotees.

James Brown · 18-09-2019 2:08pm

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

If a war ever started again in my life time I would sign up for membership so that I could die a hero, the most visited grave in my graveyard is the IRA members who got blown up by their own bomb, that tells us that you get no thanks for being a law abiding man, their grave will be kept in pristine condition for hundreds of years.

It's par for the course. There's Remembrance day and various monuments to similar.

Odhinn · 18-09-2019 2:09pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

If he says he was not in the IRA, I believe him. A few years ago, a particular Minister for justice said that if the Garda Commissioner says so and so was in the IRA or involved in a particular crime, then the Commissioner`s opinion should be considered fact. This is the type of prejudice that makes me believe Gerry Adams.

..all based on the boy scout notion that no senior garda might lie about another person, situation etc. This has ruined lives in this state (with regard to more matters than who is or isn't in the RA).

osarusan · 18-09-2019 2:11pm

maccored wrote: »

Right - hearsay works better for you then i see

I don't see the connection with democracy at all.

As I said, if somebody invokes the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle, I'll have to admit that I'm going against that principle.

But I don't see how it links to a belief in the principle of democracy. Can you explain how you make that connection?

maccored · 18-09-2019 2:42pm

osarusan wrote: »

I don't see the connection with democracy at all.

As I said, if somebody invokes the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle, I'll have to admit that I'm going against that principle.

But I don't see how it links to a belief in the principle of democracy. Can you explain how you make that connection?

A belief in the law and its system - pretty obvious no? If the man has been investigated numerous times for this very crime he is accused of, and you dont trust the (lack of) findings then you dont believe in one of the founding areas of democracy - a justice system

SafeSurfer · 18-09-2019 3:16pm

maccored wrote: »

osarusan wrote: »

I don't see the connection with democracy at all.

As I said, if somebody invokes the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle, I'll have to admit that I'm going against that principle.

But I don't see how it links to a belief in the principle of democracy. Can you explain how you make that connection?

A belief in the law and its system - pretty obvious no? If the man has been investigated numerous times for this very crime he is accused of, and you dont trust the (lack of) findings then you dont believe in one of the founding areas of democracy - a justice system

So when the British state imprisoned Gerry Adams without trial it ceased to be a democracy? America is not a democracy because terrorist suspects are held in Guentanamo Bay? Is that your point?

Eric Cartman · 18-09-2019 3:20pm

I remember watching a BBC documentary and two aul lads from the RA who were convicted and released were interviewed, they were asked was he commander in chief, they both said yes, the interviewer said 'well, he denies that' and one of them responded 'he can come down here and say that to my face'

Nobody believes he wasn't , not for a second.

maccored · 18-09-2019 3:20pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

So when the British state imprisoned Gerry Adams without trial it ceased to be a democracy? America is not a democracy because terrorist suspects are held in Guentanamo Bay? Is that your point?

no. my point has been already made.

btw - yes - Guentanamo is very undemocratic.

SafeSurfer · 18-09-2019 3:21pm

maccored wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

So when the British state imprisoned Gerry Adams without trial it ceased to be a democracy? America is not a democracy because terrorist suspects are held in Guentanamo Bay? Is that your point?

no. my point has been already made.

btw - yes - Guentanamo is very undemocratic.

Your point is nonsense.

maccored · 18-09-2019 3:24pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Your point is nonsense.

good for you. You've changed my world with your fantastic debating skills.

SafeSurfer · 18-09-2019 3:27pm

maccored wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Your point is nonsense.

good for you. You've changed my world with your fantastic debating skills.

You are just embarrassing yourself at this stage.

alastair · 18-09-2019 3:28pm

FTA69 wrote: »

People always say this but McGuinness was a convicted IRA member, spent time in prison in Portlaoise and admitted his membership as he was being sent down. Adams was never convicted of membership so is unlikely to admit he was a member of an illegal organisation. While leading Sinn Féin he pursued a strategy of building a separate political alternative over a period of many years, tagging himself as an IRA member would hardly be conducive to that.

It’s largely irrelevant now and to be honest it’s a boring topic when some journalist thinks they’re being clever by asking him that question. He wasn’t convicted of it therefore he won’t say he was.

End of story really.

Also McGuinness played the game of not being a member post his conviction, despite ample testimony that he remained on the army council for years more. Self-incrimination is never particularly clever, but McGuinness was no less a porky pie teller than Adams is.

SafeSurfer · 18-09-2019 3:31pm

An example.

A neighbour was found to be drunk driving four times over the legal limit. When his case came to court it was struck out because the guard had noted the wrong townland in which the offense had occurred.
He has never been convicted of drink driving.

Am I being undemocratic by concluding that the neighbour is a drink driver?

Eric Cartman · 18-09-2019 3:31pm

I hope he has the nerve to do a deathbed confession and just be "I was actually in the RA, I fooled you all for years" and even the family dog rolls its eyes.

maccored · 18-09-2019 3:33pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

An example.

A neighbour was found to be drunk driving four times over the legal limit. When his case came to court it was struck out because the guard had noted the wrong townland in which the offense had occurred.
He has never been convicted of drink driving.

Am I being undemocratic by concluding that the neighbour is a drink driver?

hang on - I though i was the one embarrassing themselves? the oul school yard bully techniques dont work btw

bobbysands81 · 18-09-2019 3:38pm

It’s plausible that Adams could have attended Army Council meetings to speak about political happenings without being a “member” of said Council. This could even have been a tactic to ensure he wasn’t arrested and to give him plausible deniability (which it didn’t turn out to give).

If the Brits could have charged Adams with membership of IRA then they would have. It’s amazing that the “dogs on the street” know that Adams was in the IRA yet there’s still no proof that stands up to any scrutiny.

18-09-2019 3:43pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

It’s plausible that Adams could have attended Army Council meetings to speak about political happenings without being a “member” of said Council. This could even have been a tactic to ensure he wasn’t arrested and to give him plausible deniability (which it didn’t turn out to give).

This reminds me of those catholic bishops and their "mental reservations" when they were dealing with allegations of child abuse.

SafeSurfer · 18-09-2019 3:44pm

maccored wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

An example.

A neighbour was found to be drunk driving four times over the legal limit. When his case came to court it was struck out because the guard had noted the wrong townland in which the offense had occurred.
He has never been convicted of drink driving.

Am I being undemocratic by concluding that the neighbour is a drink driver?

hang on - I though i was the one embarrassing themselves? the oul school yard bully techniques dont work btw

Questions are bullying now? How undemocratic of me to ask.

Does anyone actually believe that Gerry Adams wasn't in the IRA?

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