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Does anyone actually believe that Gerry Adams wasn't in the IRA?

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12357…21

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    #122
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    I'm going to defend Gerry a little bit here.

    There is an organisation in Ireland called the IPSC. It's the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign.

    I went to quite a few of their meetings, their piss ups, and more.

    But I never considered myself a member and I never officially joined.

    I was just there as I was interested in their side of things, wanted to better understand these people, and I thought why not go along.

    Perhaps Gerry feels something like this.


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    #123
    begsbyOnaTrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭begsbyOnaTrain


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    I'm going to defend Gerry a little bit here.

    There is an organisation in Ireland called the IPSC. It's the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign.

    I went to quite a few of their meetings, their piss ups, and more.

    But I never considered myself a member and I never officially joined.

    I was just there as I was interested in their side of things, wanted to better understand these people, and I thought why not go along.

    Perhaps Gerry feels something like this.

    Might be comparable if you ordered the murder of some people while at the piss-ups?


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    #124
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »
    Might be comparable if you ordered the murder of some people while at the piss-ups?

    A few of the people at the IPSC were extremists.

    My point is there is a technicality on what constitutes membership.


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    #125
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    A few of the people at the IPSC were extremists.

    My point is there is a technicality on what constitutes membership.

    The IRA were hardly going to give you a membership card, badge, and 4 membership magazines a year for signing up.

    A growing number of former senior members of the IRA have stated that not only was Adams a member, but that he was close to being the head honcho during much of the 70’s. Ed Moloney’s wonderful Secret History of the IRA goes into far more detail around this.


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    #126
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »
    Might be comparable if you ordered the murder of some people while at the piss-ups?

    A few of the people at the IPSC were extremists.

    My point is there is a technicality on what constitutes membership.

    There is no technicality. Adams appears in numerous photographs in the honour guard uniform of the IRA carrying the coffin of dead IRA members where all the other pall bearers are IRA members.
    The beret and gloves aren’t Sinn Fein paraphernalia they are IRA paraphernalia.

    Adams wrote in An Phoblacht under the pseudonym “Brownie” where he states “I am an IRA volunteer”. His claims that “Brownie” was a pen named used by many writers has been dismissed by even his defenders and prison notes smuggled into prison addressed to “Brownie” were delivered only to Adams.

    Adams represented the provisional IRA at a meeting in London with the Northern Ireland Secretary of State at which, according to Sean Mc Stiofan in his book “Memoirs of a Revolutionary” only IRA members were present.

    Adams also lies about the Jean Mc Conville murder claiming he was in prison at the time of her killing when in fact she was murdered 6 months before his imprisonment.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #127
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    There is no technicality. Adams appears in numerous photographs in the honour guard uniform of the IRA carrying the coffin of dead IRA members where all the other pall bearers are IRA members.
    The beret and gloves aren’t Sinn Fein paraphernalia they are IRA paraphernalia.

    Adams wrote in An Phoblacht under the pseudonym “Brownie” where he states “I am an IRA volunteer”. His claims that “Brownie” was a pen named used by many writers has been dismissed by even his defenders and prison notes smuggled into prison addressed to “Brownie” were delivered only to Adams.

    Adams represented the provisional IRA at a meeting in London with the Northern Ireland Secretary of State at which, according to Sean Mc Stiofan in his book “Memoirs of a Revolutionary” only IRA members were present.

    Adams also lies about the Jean Mc Conville murder claiming he was in prison at the time of her killing when in fact she was murdered 6 months before his imprisonment.

    look lads - in reality, if there was hard evidence that Adams was in the IRA he would have been convicted as he was one of the most scrutinised people in the north. that evidence - bar hearsay - doesnt exist. If you actually believe in democracy, then Im afraid you'll just have to accept Gerry Adam's insistence that he wasnt in the IRA.


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    #128
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,585 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    maccored wrote: »
    If you actually believe in democracy, then Im afraid you'll just have to accept Gerry Adam's insistence that he wasnt in the IRA.


    Why democracy? Innocent until proven guilty I can understand, but what's the link with democracy?

    I believe 100% that Adams was in the IRA, and I guess there are only a handful of people who genuinely believe he never was.


    Does that mean I cannot believe in democracy too?


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    #129
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    maccored wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    There is no technicality. Adams appears in numerous photographs in the honour guard uniform of the IRA carrying the coffin of dead IRA members where all the other pall bearers are IRA members.
    The beret and gloves aren’t Sinn Fein paraphernalia they are IRA paraphernalia.

    Adams wrote in An Phoblacht under the pseudonym “Brownie” where he states “I am an IRA volunteer”. His claims that “Brownie” was a pen named used by many writers has been dismissed by even his defenders and prison notes smuggled into prison addressed to “Brownie” were delivered only to Adams.

    Adams represented the provisional IRA at a meeting in London with the Northern Ireland Secretary of State at which, according to Sean Mc Stiofan in his book “Memoirs of a Revolutionary” only IRA members were present.

    Adams also lies about the Jean Mc Conville murder claiming he was in prison at the time of her killing when in fact she was murdered 6 months before his imprisonment.

    look lads - in reality, if there was hard evidence that Adams was in the IRA he would have been convicted as he was one of the most scrutinised people in the north. that evidence - bar hearsay - doesnt exist. If you actually believe in democracy, then Im afraid you'll just have to accept Gerry Adam's insistence that he wasnt in the IRA.

    Evidence necessary for a conviction for IRA membership in a court of law is quite different from evidence that he was a member of the IRA. Thousands of IRA members have never been convicted of IRA membership. It doesn’t mean they were never in the IRA. Many guilty people are not convicted in court but there is little doubt of their guilt.

    I believe firmly in democracy and I don’t for a moment accept Gerry Adams insistence that he wasn’t in the IRA.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #130
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    There is no technicality. Adams appears in numerous photographs in the honour guard uniform of the IRA carrying the coffin of dead IRA members where all the other pall bearers are IRA members.
    The beret and gloves aren’t Sinn Fein paraphernalia they are IRA paraphernalia.

    Adams wrote in An Phoblacht under the pseudonym “Brownie” where he states “I am an IRA volunteer”. His claims that “Brownie” was a pen named used by many writers has been dismissed by even his defenders and prison notes smuggled into prison addressed to “Brownie” were delivered only to Adams.

    Adams represented the provisional IRA at a meeting in London with the Northern Ireland Secretary of State at which, according to Sean Mc Stiofan in his book “Memoirs of a Revolutionary” only IRA members were present.

    Adams also lies about the Jean Mc Conville murder claiming he was in prison at the time of her killing when in fact she was murdered 6 months before his imprisonment.

    Does he claim to have been involved with the IRA, e.g. representing them?


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    #131
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,079 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Even Adams knows that this line is nonsense at this stage.

    But, it doesn't matter any more and the vast majority of people don't care anyway.


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    #132
    YFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    I doubt he was the IRA kingpin. He couldn't promise that one of his nephews be safe in the North.


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    #133
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    osarusan wrote: »
    Why democracy? Innocent until proven guilty I can understand, but what's the link with democracy?

    I believe 100% that Adams was in the IRA, and I guess there are only a handful of people who genuinely believe he never was.


    Does that mean I cannot believe in democracy too?

    Right - hearsay works better for you then i see


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    #134
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    maccored wrote: »
    osarusan wrote: »
    Why democracy? Innocent until proven guilty I can understand, but what's the link with democracy?

    I believe 100% that Adams was in the IRA, and I guess there are only a handful of people who genuinely believe he never was.


    Does that mean I cannot believe in democracy too?

    Right - hearsay works better for you then i see

    What do want? A beaten confession in a Divis flat which was enough to condemn scores of IRA victims to their deaths? Hearsay was evidence enough for the IRA but Adams is entitled the benefit of a doubt that exists only in the minds of slavish devotees.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #135
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »
    If a war ever started again in my life time I would sign up for membership so that I could die a hero, the most visited grave in my graveyard is the IRA members who got blown up by their own bomb, that tells us that you get no thanks for being a law abiding man, their grave will be kept in pristine condition for hundreds of years.

    It's par for the course. There's Remembrance day and various monuments to similar.


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    #136
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    If he says he was not in the IRA, I believe him. A few years ago, a particular Minister for justice said that if the Garda Commissioner says so and so was in the IRA or involved in a particular crime, then the Commissioner`s opinion should be considered fact. This is the type of prejudice that makes me believe Gerry Adams.




    ..all based on the boy scout notion that no senior garda might lie about another person, situation etc. This has ruined lives in this state (with regard to more matters than who is or isn't in the RA).


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    #137
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,585 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    maccored wrote: »
    Right - hearsay works better for you then i see


    I don't see the connection with democracy at all.

    As I said, if somebody invokes the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle, I'll have to admit that I'm going against that principle.

    But I don't see how it links to a belief in the principle of democracy. Can you explain how you make that connection?


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    #138
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    osarusan wrote: »
    I don't see the connection with democracy at all.

    As I said, if somebody invokes the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle, I'll have to admit that I'm going against that principle.

    But I don't see how it links to a belief in the principle of democracy. Can you explain how you make that connection?

    A belief in the law and its system - pretty obvious no? If the man has been investigated numerous times for this very crime he is accused of, and you dont trust the (lack of) findings then you dont believe in one of the founding areas of democracy - a justice system


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    #139
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    maccored wrote: »
    osarusan wrote: »
    I don't see the connection with democracy at all.

    As I said, if somebody invokes the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle, I'll have to admit that I'm going against that principle.

    But I don't see how it links to a belief in the principle of democracy. Can you explain how you make that connection?

    A belief in the law and its system - pretty obvious no? If the man has been investigated numerous times for this very crime he is accused of, and you dont trust the (lack of) findings then you dont believe in one of the founding areas of democracy - a justice system

    So when the British state imprisoned Gerry Adams without trial it ceased to be a democracy? America is not a democracy because terrorist suspects are held in Guentanamo Bay? Is that your point?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #140
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    I remember watching a BBC documentary and two aul lads from the RA who were convicted and released were interviewed, they were asked was he commander in chief, they both said yes, the interviewer said 'well, he denies that' and one of them responded 'he can come down here and say that to my face'

    Nobody believes he wasn't , not for a second.


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    #141
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    So when the British state imprisoned Gerry Adams without trial it ceased to be a democracy? America is not a democracy because terrorist suspects are held in Guentanamo Bay? Is that your point?

    no. my point has been already made.

    btw - yes - Guentanamo is very undemocratic.


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    #142
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    maccored wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    So when the British state imprisoned Gerry Adams without trial it ceased to be a democracy? America is not a democracy because terrorist suspects are held in Guentanamo Bay? Is that your point?

    no. my point has been already made.

    btw - yes - Guentanamo is very undemocratic.

    Your point is nonsense.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #143
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Your point is nonsense.

    good for you. You've changed my world with your fantastic debating skills.


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    #144
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    maccored wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Your point is nonsense.

    good for you. You've changed my world with your fantastic debating skills.

    You are just embarrassing yourself at this stage.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #145
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    FTA69 wrote: »
    People always say this but McGuinness was a convicted IRA member, spent time in prison in Portlaoise and admitted his membership as he was being sent down. Adams was never convicted of membership so is unlikely to admit he was a member of an illegal organisation. While leading Sinn Féin he pursued a strategy of building a separate political alternative over a period of many years, tagging himself as an IRA member would hardly be conducive to that.

    It’s largely irrelevant now and to be honest it’s a boring topic when some journalist thinks they’re being clever by asking him that question. He wasn’t convicted of it therefore he won’t say he was.

    End of story really.

    Also McGuinness played the game of not being a member post his conviction, despite ample testimony that he remained on the army council for years more. Self-incrimination is never particularly clever, but McGuinness was no less a porky pie teller than Adams is.


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    #146
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    An example.

    A neighbour was found to be drunk driving four times over the legal limit. When his case came to court it was struck out because the guard had noted the wrong townland in which the offense had occurred.
    He has never been convicted of drink driving.


    Am I being undemocratic by concluding that the neighbour is a drink driver?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #147
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    I hope he has the nerve to do a deathbed confession and just be "I was actually in the RA, I fooled you all for years" and even the family dog rolls its eyes.


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    #148
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    An example.

    A neighbour was found to be drunk driving four times over the legal limit. When his case came to court it was struck out because the guard had noted the wrong townland in which the offense had occurred.
    He has never been convicted of drink driving.


    Am I being undemocratic by concluding that the neighbour is a drink driver?

    hang on - I though i was the one embarrassing themselves? the oul school yard bully techniques dont work btw


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    #149
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users Posts: 7,202 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    It’s plausible that Adams could have attended Army Council meetings to speak about political happenings without being a “member” of said Council. This could even have been a tactic to ensure he wasn’t arrested and to give him plausible deniability (which it didn’t turn out to give).

    If the Brits could have charged Adams with membership of IRA then they would have. It’s amazing that the “dogs on the street” know that Adams was in the IRA yet there’s still no proof that stands up to any scrutiny.


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    #150
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    It’s plausible that Adams could have attended Army Council meetings to speak about political happenings without being a “member” of said Council. This could even have been a tactic to ensure he wasn’t arrested and to give him plausible deniability (which it didn’t turn out to give).

    This reminds me of those catholic bishops and their "mental reservations" when they were dealing with allegations of child abuse.


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    #151
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    maccored wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    An example.

    A neighbour was found to be drunk driving four times over the legal limit. When his case came to court it was struck out because the guard had noted the wrong townland in which the offense had occurred.
    He has never been convicted of drink driving.


    Am I being undemocratic by concluding that the neighbour is a drink driver?

    hang on - I though i was the one embarrassing themselves? the oul school yard bully techniques dont work btw

    Questions are bullying now? How undemocratic of me to ask.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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