Old Tool Restoration

Collibosher · 10-09-2017 11:26pm

Got hold of this recently from a relative.

They had many planes, some of them brought back from the USA by a relative on his return in the 1950's. Others were mostly bought in UK from 1950's onwards.

Any ideas on the age of this one, and is it likely to be one from the USA ?

my3cents · 11-09-2017 12:02am

Collibosher wrote: »

Got hold of this recently from a relative.

They had many planes, some of them brought back from the USA by a relative on his return in the 1950's. Others were mostly bought in UK from 1950's onwards.

Any ideas on the age of this one, and is it likely to be one from the USA ?

Dust it off, you never know it might just say Made in USA?

Collibosher · 11-09-2017 12:22am

I didn't word it very clearly, but I meant was it likely that it was a pre 50's era plane that the relative would have brought back with him.

I have others that have Stanley and Bailey on them, which I presume are later.

my3cents · 11-09-2017 9:34am

Collibosher wrote: »

I didn't word it very clearly, but I meant was it likely that it was a pre 50's era plane that the relative would have brought back with him.

I have others that have Stanley and Bailey on them, which I presume are later.

Hard to say from your photos but there is a wealth of information online and there is always a chance you have a mix and match of bits, all looks good on yours though.

My first thoughts were it might be a type 7 (thats an age type not the size) which is nice and early but then I decided it probably wasn't and the reason I said to clean it is you'd need to see what is written in the casting behind the frog and just below the brass adjusting nut. One of the first things to check is the number of patent number in the casting which may be none or more. I first thought there might be two but when I realised I was wrong on that my type 7 feeling disappeared.

The other place of interest I can't really see is the lateral adjustment lever and that may also be marked in a way that helps indicate age.

Collibosher · 11-09-2017 12:55pm

Thanks again, dismantled it and it has three patent dates cast into the body.

Googling suggests it may be a type 11 from around 1910-18 if I'm reading it correctly. It's looks in remarkably good condition, a mixture of lightly oiled sawdust has preserved it well.

There were quite a few interesting other items, well I thought so anyway. Maybe I could post the odd photo if there's any interest, and it's suitable for this thread.

my3cents · 11-09-2017 1:12pm

Collibosher wrote: »

Thanks again, dismantled it and it has three patent dates cast into the body.

Googling suggests it may be a type 11 from around 1910-18 if I'm reading it correctly. It's looks in remarkably good condition, a mixture of lightly oiled sawdust has preserved it well.

There were quite a few interesting other items, well I thought so anyway. Maybe I could post the odd photo if there's any interest, and it's suitable for this thread.

Old tool porn is always welcome

I key it out as either a type 11 or type 12 using https://woodandshop.com/identify-stanley-hand-plane-age-type-study/ but there are lots of others.

In this case its all down to the size of the brass depth adjusting nut.

Condition is far from perfect for a collector, but its perfect for a user.

magicbastarder · 11-09-2017 1:36pm

not so old - i recently picked up a modern, barely used 4 1/2, and the nut which holds the rear handle steady is missing - anyone know what size or standard this is?
not as nice as an old tool - plastic handles an obvious difference.

my3cents · 11-09-2017 1:45pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

not so old - i recently picked up a modern, barely used 4 1/2, and the nut which holds the rear handle steady is missing - anyone know what size or standard this is?
not as nice as an old tool - plastic handles an obvious difference.

I'm fairly sure the plastic handles use a different thread to the old ones

I know there is far more than you need here but if even using AddressPal this is going to be your cheapest option https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stanley-Spares-112700-Standard-Handles/dp/B008H0QH5M/ or https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stanley-Spares-112701-Bailey-Handles/dp/B0042A0ZK4/ depending which sized handles you need probably the first but both have the same size screws.

Plenty of the old ones on ebay but when you add the postage the above is still attractive.

Collibosher · 11-09-2017 2:14pm

my3cents wrote: »

Old tool porn is always welcome

I key it out as either a type 11 or type 12 using https://woodandshop.com/identify-stanley-hand-plane-age-type-study/ but there are lots of others.

In this case its all down to the size of the brass depth adjusting nut.

Condition is far from perfect for a collector, but its perfect for a user.

Thanks for the link, it's not the one I used but it gives same result. The brass adjusting nut is the smaller 1" size.

It's certainly goood enough for this user, and nice to continue using something that has been in the family for so long.

jack of all · 11-09-2017 6:39pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

not so old - i recently picked up a modern, barely used 4 1/2, and the nut which holds the rear handle steady is missing - anyone know what size or standard this is?
not as nice as an old tool - plastic handles an obvious difference.

You can get replacement "rosewood" handles online, but you're looking at €20 or more for pair (tote and knob). McQuillans on Capel Street also carry some replacement spare parts (including those nuts, threaded studs, machine screws and bits) for Stanley planes- not cheap either but might suit you if you want to compare....

my3cents · 11-09-2017 6:47pm

jack of all wrote: »

You can get replacement "rosewood" handles online, but you're looking at €20 or more for pair (tote and knob). McQuillans on Capel Street also carry some replacement spare parts (including those nuts, threaded studs, machine screws and bits) for Stanley planes- not cheap either but might suit you if you want to compare....

I can remember when you could write a sob story to the Stanley works in the UK and they'd happily send out small spares like screws and nuts free of charge. How things have changed.

imakebiodiesel · 16-09-2017 12:03pm

You plane is indeed a type 11 and is considered by many collectors and users to be the best version of the Bailey type plane ever made. The condition looks good for the age so you have a really nice tool there. You dont mention any details about the blade. This may or may not be original, what is stamped on it?

Collibosher · 17-09-2017 1:53am

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

You plane is indeed a type 11 and is considered by many collectors and users to be the best version of the Bailey type plane ever made. The condition looks good for the age so you have a really nice tool there. You dont mention any details about the blade. This may or may not be original, what is stamped on it?

It has "STANLEY, NEW BRITAIN, CONN. U.S.A." stamped on it.

imakebiodiesel · 19-09-2017 11:23am

That would be consistent with the age of the plane and will be a good quality blade. From the picture It would seem about half the blade has been used but it still has many years of use left.
If you did eventually want to replace it I would seek out a Sweetheart blade for it. These were made by Stanley from 1915 till 1935 and were the best ever made by Stanley. You can still find full length ones on Ebay occasionally.

Zebbedee · 22-09-2017 8:16am

Reading this thread has prompted me to attempt to clean up some old planes and other woodworking tools I have.
Some of the old stanley planes have wooden grips so can I assume not to immerse the wood into the vinegar salt solution?
I have other all wooden planes made by Booth Brothers Dublin and J G Graves Sheffield. How do I clean up the body's on those?

magicbastarder · 22-09-2017 8:40am

no, you'd take the wooden handles off before immersing them. unless they're really bad, a good scrub with WD40 or similar and some wire wool may be less faff?

jack of all · 22-09-2017 9:45am

For cleaning up wooden plane bodies etc I've used a mix of white spirit and boiled linseed oil. Use this in conjunction with some green pot scourers and plenty of kitchen paper to remove the gunge whilst maintaining the patina and oiling the wood.

imakebiodiesel · 24-09-2017 12:23am

Jack of all has got it exactly right, you want to clean off the dirt without removing the patina of age and use.. Thinning the linseed oil allows it to penetrate the wood deeply and provide long term protection from woodworm. The green pot scrubs or perhaps fine wire wool are gentle enough not to scratch the wood surface.
Your Planes by Booth Bros are quite rare, they were the only Irish makers of planes and cast steel chisels in the 19th century. its not clear whether they made them themselves or imported them from England with their names on them. Either way they are rare and of special interest.

Collibosher · 24-09-2017 9:48pm

Beautiful casting, could look at it all day

jack of all · 26-09-2017 8:59am

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

Your Planes by Booth Bros are quite rare, they were the only Irish makers of planes and cast steel chisels in the 19th century. its not clear whether they made them themselves or imported them from England with their names on them. Either way they are rare and of special interest.

That's very interesting- I have a couple of tools by Booth's, one wooden moulding plane at least. When I tried to research them I couldn't find out very much about them. I got in contact with a well-known hand tool expert in the US who was aware of them but couldn't tell me much else.

imakebiodiesel · 28-09-2017 12:47am

Here is a link to some info about them, particularly their lathes.
I believe they are still in business somewhere in north Dublin but they are just machinery importers now.
John

jack of all · 28-09-2017 9:44am

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

Here is a link to some info about them, particularly their lathes.
I believe they are still in business somewhere in north Dublin but they are just machinery importers now.
John

Thanks John, link missing but a quick google found it for me. My great grandfather had a woodturning lathe that I believe may have originated from them (or at the very least some of the mechanical parts- headstock, tailstock, rest etc). Icould put up a picture of it later, if you're interested in seeing how it looked?

geraardo · 02-10-2017 10:05am

Collibosher wrote: »

Beautiful casting, could look at it all day

Is it yours ? very nice.

imakebiodiesel · 03-10-2017 12:00am

Jack of all, yes I would be very interested to see a picture of it. there cant be many of them around.
Collibosher, Prestons casting quality was incredible, even today that crispness in a casting is rare. If that one is yours you are lucky , it has a full length original blade. When I got mine the blade was almost worn down completely. Fortunately i was able to buy a brand new blade for it from Ray Illes in Sheffield.
He makes replacement high quality blades for almost all vintage British tools and very reasonably priced.

jack of all · 08-10-2017 4:40pm

@imakebiodiesel

Sorry for the delay, only got the pics of the lathe today. I can't find any names/ numbers or any other information that would help to identify it. It make be nothing to do with Booth Brothers at all, but it is an interesting machine nonetheless.

my3cents · 08-10-2017 4:44pm

jack of all wrote: »

@imakebiodiesel

Sorry for the delay, only got the pics of the lathe today. I can't find any names/ numbers or any other information that would help to identify it. It make be nothing to do with Booth Brothers at all, but it is an interesting machine nonetheless.

Are the oblong bits on the end of the large pulley wheel iron to give it a bit more weight?

Collibosher · 08-10-2017 11:02pm

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

Collibosher, Prestons casting quality was incredible, even today that crispness in a casting is rare. If that one is yours you are lucky , it has a full length original blade. When I got mine the blade was almost worn down completely. Fortunately i was able to buy a brand new blade for it from Ray Illes in Sheffield.
He makes replacement high quality blades for almost all vintage British tools and very reasonably priced.

Thanks, it was owned and used by my grandfather. It jumped out at me when I first saw it

Also came across this Stanley 386 jointer fence. It's missing the knob, not sure if it's specific to this or is same as used on planes.

jack of all · 09-10-2017 1:57pm

my3cents wrote: »

Are the oblong bits on the end of the large pulley wheel iron to give it a bit more weight?

I believe so, it's basically a flywheel.

Zebbedee · 09-10-2017 9:39pm

jack of all wrote: »

I believe so, it's basically a flywheel.

Perhaps also, the weights were added in strategic places to balance the flywheel.
Much in the same way weights are added to car rims.

jack of all · 09-10-2017 10:17pm

Zebbedee wrote: »

Perhaps also, the weights were added in strategic places to balance the flywheel.
Much in the same way weights are added to car rims.

Nice idea, but I don't think a flywheel like this would have needed much in the way of dynamic balancing, it's peripheral speed is pretty low, in comparison to a motor powered lathe. The weights are located equidistant around the circumference, or as close as makes no difference.

As an aside, I've never used a treadle-powered lathe like this, the nearest I've done is using a pole lathe and with this you need to use really sharp tools as the speed of the workpiece is so low. With a motor powered lathe you can get away with less than sharp tools- they will still yield results, on a pole lathe blunt tools are a no-no. I'd imagine the same would be true for this treadle lathe.

imakebiodiesel · 10-10-2017 7:04pm

Wonderful machine, and it looks like its in working order and ready for spindle turning. Do you have a belt for it?

jack of all · 11-10-2017 2:41pm

I've never used, or seen it being used (it's probably 50 years since it was last used). I've no belt for it but I'm sure if it was cleaned up and fettled it could be used. Ipresume the original belt would have been leather, joined with "staples"?

imakebiodiesel · 12-10-2017 6:11pm

It would make a great restoration project, especially since it seem almost complete. Flat belts can be made up but as a stop gap you might be able to source a suitable large vee belt from horicultural machinery suppliers. The threaded section just behind the prong chuck is for fitting other chucks and face plates. If you measure the outside diameter and the pitch ie the number of turns per inch I might be able find a source of accessories.

jack of all · 12-10-2017 10:52pm

@imakebiodiesel

Thanks for the info. Here's another puzzle for you, any idea what this tool is? It is marked "Booth Brothers" and stamped with the number "4". My guess- a punch or swaging/ seaming tool for sheet metal work? A tool for an anvil hardie hole?

imakebiodiesel · 13-10-2017 2:37pm

The shank of the tool seems uniformly square so would not sit into a hardy hole.
I think it may be a round nosed scraper for a metalwork lathe.

imakebiodiesel · 14-10-2017 10:21am

My son has just made a short video of me cleaning up and sharpening a nice old cast steel chisel
https://youtu.be/V6gaodQ8kio
Enjoy

Zebbedee · 15-10-2017 10:11am

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

My son has just made a short video of me cleaning up and sharpening a nice old cast steel chisel
https://youtu.be/V6gaodQ8kio
Enjoy

Suberb video. I have a box of those old chisels requiring similar attention.
Now I have an idea what to do.
What is the wood you used to make the handle?

imakebiodiesel · 15-10-2017 3:38pm

That handle is hickory which i find is a great wood for tool handles, tough , dense and hard to split. I also use beech, ash and boxwood when I can get it. The wood must be thoroughly seasoned for tool handles, otherwise the wood will continue to shrink around the steel tang and eventually will split.
Where possible I will reuse the original brass ferrule but in this case I used a short piece of 3/4" copper pipe. just as strong and looks good too.
Drill out the hole and widen it at the top to accept the tang. The tang should be hammered home the last 10mm, any more and you risk splitting the handle.
Its really satisfying to use chisels that you have rescued and the prewar cast steel these chisels are made of has only recently been equalled by the likes of Hock, Lie Neilsen and Narex.

imakebiodiesel · 15-10-2017 3:58pm

Just a comment about cleaning up the blades of old chisels. The disc I use in my hand grinder is a very gentle scotchbrite pad that removes dirt and surface rust but will not scratch metal. I personally dont like to see blades buffed to look like new, and too much buffing could overheat the surface and ruin the temper of the steel.
And speaking of overheating, in the video you may notice I keep my finger right next to the place on the chisel where I am grinding. As soon as I feel any significant heat in the metal I dip the blade into cold water to cool it. Many might consider this a dangerous practice and you certainly do not want to get distracted when you are grinding metal. Another possibly safer method is watch the water on the back of the blade and as soon as you see bubbling or steam stop grinding and cool in the water bath.
If you do accidentally over heat a blade and ruin the temper dont despair, steel blades can be rehardened and tempered again. its relatively simple but I wont go into it now.

MattH4M · 25-05-2018 12:47pm

How have people got on with vinegar for rust removal? I I tried it once and it darkened the steel quite a bit, is there a way to prevent or reverse this?

imakebiodiesel · 25-05-2018 4:46pm

Acids will leave a dark deposit on the steel. After the acid has dealt with the rust and dirt it goes to work on on the surface. Fine wire wool will remove it. Avoid leaving the item in the acid too long and rinse it thoroughly with plenty of water. I prefer to use a stronger acid, sulphuric, treat the metal quickly and then rinse without delay.

16-09-2018 9:48pm

Light restoration on one of the Stanley #5's

Before:

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After:

16-09-2018 9:58pm

This is the current work in progress. Well, one of many. It's a late 40's made in England Bailey #7c

If you're a purist, now is a good time to look away.

Too much missing japanning to ignore or touch up and it was absolutely caked in rust. Gave it 24 hours in some vinegar, rust wiped right off with a well used nylon pot scrub. Nitromors (new formula, meh) took care of the remaining japanning. I stripped the handles with meths (nitrile gloves, outdoors), restained them and they've now had about 8 coats of shellac. They look fantastic. I'll put up pictures of that later on.

Anyway, here's how it looked after stripping and cleaning:

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The after pictures will go up once it's finished.

EDIT: The keen eyed amongst you probably spotted that's a Miller Falls 2 3/8" blade. I'm on the lookout for a flat top Stanley blade to replace it. It's full length, but I'd prefer the original Stanley item. Swaps, anyone?

magicbastarder · 16-09-2018 10:47pm

pics aren't displaying for me, unfortunately.

16-09-2018 10:57pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

pics aren't displaying for me, unfortunately.

Now?

magicbastarder · 16-09-2018 11:05pm

all good!
looks like a full restoration rather than a light one though?

16-09-2018 11:23pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

all good!
looks like a full restoration rather than a light one though?

On the #5? Nah, that was just a clean up and flattened the sole.

Ye should all get yourselves some gun oil for your planes and old handtools lads. Perfect for the job. No silicon, teflon or graphite. Absolutely ideal.

https://www.sportsden.ie/brunox-turbo-spray-300ml-gun-oil.html

magicbastarder · 16-09-2018 11:24pm

ah, i mixed up the #5 and #7 posts.

04-10-2018 8:54pm

Here's a few snaps of the 7c after some more work on it:

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27-01-2019 1:51am

Picked this up on eBay in really knackered condition.
Rusted and pitted plate, badly filed etc. Cleaned it up as best I could and had this as a starting point for some more work on it later.

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Not looking to make it like new, but I'm happy with this and will get around to recutting the teeth in the coming weeks.

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Old Tool Restoration

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