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Your New WHS Index

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    #842
    blue note
    Registered Users Posts: 4,508 ✭✭✭blue note


    square ball wrote: »
    May not be the correct place for this question but hopefully someone can help me.

    Just got my first handicap and membership card, tried setting up an account on Golf Ireland but it says my details are incorrect but I'm using the membership number and PIN on the back of my card for first login. How do I get set up? Friend was trying to do same at the weekend and it wouldn't work either.

    I had the same problem. I contacted the proshop. They got me a different PIN and I was able to log in then too.


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    #843
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users Posts: 2,885 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    The system is now automatic. All scores entered online are pretty much immediately sent to the WHS portal. Obviously if you drop a card in without entering the scores on the computer, there will be a delay before the handicap secretary or whoever is tasked with the job enters the scores from the card. Covid precautions mean that cards shouldn't be handled immediately.

    Edit: There are also online apps and webpages where you can enter your scores without using the clubhouse computer. Afaik, both HowDidIDo and Master Scoreboard have these facilities.

    If you don't enter your score on the day it was made, it can't be added to your record on that day and be in your HI calculation for the following day.

    I think he still has to cut himself in this situation. you could be playing off a higher handicap than you should.

    Its not that hard to calculate. the formula is (113/Slope) x (Your score - (Slope + PCC) . or use this calculator http://golf.okrasa.eu/handicap-en/whs-en/score-differential/

    then get the average of your best 8 dropping the one that this will replace. i think for this you could assume a PCC of zero. or if you want to go worst case of 3.

    If you enter a comp knowing your handicap should be lower than it is because of an unprocessed score then that is disqualification, unless this rule changed with the introduction of the WHS.


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    #844
    big_drive
    Registered Users Posts: 3,121 ✭✭✭big_drive


    Interesting one i've seen that i've mentioned here before which is still ongoing

    Player joined club last summer, played 3 cards for purpose of getting handicap. Then never got to play any competitions, no fault of player but had personal circumstances that ruled out golf for quite a bit.

    So no cards on record. But handicap given became WHS index on January 1st

    Played first competition round approx 3 weeks ago and actually beat handicap- had 39 points. Expected change to index but no update or change. Reason being there must be 3 cards on recored for a change to happen. For 3 rounds its you best card -2 , theres a table that breaks it down below

    So for signing in last week handicap was same and i think he got a few comments from other players questioning his handicap. From what i gather he actually played only ok on purpose to avoid any attention. Will play his 3rd round next weeknd, i'm thinking he'll intentionally do only ok so not to draw attention.
    Handicap should then update next day and things will even out from there on

    But i think its a flaw in the system. This guy is aware of being labeled a bandit and doesn't want that attention

    But somebody else who wouldn't care could easily play 3 competitions in a row off same handicap and score for example 44 points each day.

    https://www.randa.org/Rules-of-Handicapping/2019/Rules/The-Rules-of-Handicapping/Rule-5


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    #845
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,201 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    DuckSlice wrote: »
    I think he still has to cut himself in this situation. you could be playing off a higher handicap than you should.

    Its not that hard to calculate. the formula is (113/Slope) x (Your score - (Slope + PCC) . or use this calculator http://golf.okrasa.eu/handicap-en/whs-en/score-differential/

    then get the average of your best 8 dropping the one that this will replace. i think for this you could assume a PCC of zero. or if you want to go worst case of 3.

    If you enter a comp knowing your handicap should be lower than it is because of an unprocessed score then that is disqualification, unless this rule changed with the introduction of the WHS.
    Doesn't seem to be a part of the system any more:
    Rule 4

    If a player does not submit their score on the day of play:
    • Their Handicap Index will not be updated in time for the next day (see Rule 5.4), and
    • Their score will not be included in the daily playing conditions calculation (PCC) (see Rule 5.6).
    When a score is posted to the player’s scoring record after the day of play and the PCC for the day the round was played has already been performed, the PCC adjustment should still be applied to the player’s Score Differential calculation even though the player's score was not included in the PCC.
    If a score is submitted out of sequence:
    • The score should be added to the player’s scoring record in the correct chronological order.
    • The published PCC adjustment for the golf course played, on the day the round was played, should be applied to the Score Differential calculation.
    • The player’s Handicap Index should be recalculated.
    Note: The Handicap Committee should investigate any repeated occurrence of a player failing to submit a score in a timely manner (see Rule 7.1b).
    If there is no evidence that the player has acted for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, all scores submitted in the intervening period should stand for handicap purposes.


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    #846
    PabloAndRoy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭PabloAndRoy


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Doesn't seem to be a part of the system any more:

    So .. does this mean whatever the computer says when I sign in is correct regardless of the previous day's score not being used to calculate it?


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    #847
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,201 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Interesting addendum to the above rule is that there is a procedure for handling NRs (no returns). Basically, the handicap committee can decide to enter a score or disregard it completely.

    556024.jpg


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    #848
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users Posts: 2,885 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Doesn't seem to be a part of the system any more:

    Doesn't seem to be. So i could go out and shoot the lights out on Friday, but hold back my score until the day after so my handicap doesn't get cut for the comp on saturday?

    If anyone done this and the won the Saturday comp i would put money on they would be DQ'd. unless they were both away comps or something where the organisers wouldnt know the first card was withheld? anyway probably not a discussion for this thread.


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    #849
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,201 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    PabloAndRoy wrote: »
    So .. does this mean whatever the computer says when I sign in is correct regardless of the previous day's score not being used to calculate it?
    Yes. But the order of your results can be changed to reflect what actually happened, any PCC applicable can be applied and your handicap index changed as a result.

    From a practical standpoint, if I was closing the competition (usually the following day) I'd note that your score wasn't entered on the correct day, re-date it to ensure that it is recorded before any subsequent competition and apply any adjustments to that one if necessary.

    I'd also be on your case about not using another method of entering your score. ;)


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    #850
    PabloAndRoy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭PabloAndRoy


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Yes. But the order of your results can be changed to reflect what actually happened, any PCC applicable can be applied and your handicap index changed as a result.

    From a practical standpoint, if I was closing the competition (usually the following day) I'd note that your score wasn't entered on the correct day, re-date it to ensure that it is recorded before any subsequent competition and apply any adjustments to that one if necessary.

    I'd also be on your case about not using another method of entering your score. ;)

    I always put my score in on the compuer or via masterscoreboard before i get in the car.

    but my potential issues is what I said earler about the previous days results not being in for anyone:
    I play comps Saturday and Sunday. When I started Sunday morning, my Saturday result was not in so I am on the same handicap as previous day. In my case I knew there would be no change. By the time I finished on SUnday, the results were in and HI updated. This means that those starting later have an up to date handicap and those earlier have an old handicap. This has happened for the last 3 weeks now. I am sure at some point this will have an impact on a result.


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    #851
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,201 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    DuckSlice wrote: »
    Doesn't seem to be. So i could go out and shoot the lights out on Friday, but hold back my score until the day after so my handicap doesn't get cut for the comp on saturday?

    If anyone done this and the won the Saturday comp i would put money on they would be DQ'd. unless they were both away comps or something where the organisers wouldnt know the first card was withheld? anyway probably not a discussion for this thread.
    Well as you can see above, there is a procedure for this. And also should raise some penetrating questions.


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    #852
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,201 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    PabloAndRoy wrote: »
    I always put my score in on the compuer or via masterscoreboard before i get in the car.

    but my potential issues is what I said earler about the previous days results not being in for anyone:
    That's highly unusual. But possibly a breakdown in broadband connection. Not much can be done in that case except follow the procedure outlined above and re-date the scores.

    Edit: As an aside, were scores entered on the day and just didn't reach the portal?


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    #853
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users Posts: 2,885 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Well as you can see above, there is a procedure for this. And also should raise some penetrating questions.

    Yes definitely would need to provide a genuine reason for that behavior.

    I remember playing a fourball betterball team comp a few years back, my partner had shot 40pts the day before, but the comp wasn't closing until the day after the fourball. I told him you have to cut yourself today and he laughed and me and said that's just stupid you play to the handicap thats on the system.

    We had a decent score and our team had a decent lead, long story short we got DQ'd because he was off 11 but should have been 10, i should have just corrected it myself at the time but hindsight is a great thing. The team dropped our card of 40 points and was replaced with a card of 32pts.


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    #854
    square ball
    Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭square ball


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    Did you try on the app? I have reports of this not working on the app and it works fine registering on the website

    Yeah I was trying it on the website and have tried different devices.


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    #855
    square ball
    Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭square ball


    blue note wrote: »
    I had the same problem. I contacted the proshop. They got me a different PIN and I was able to log in then too.

    Yeah I'll pop in when I'm playing next.


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    #856
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,201 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    square ball wrote: »
    Yeah I'll pop in when I'm playing next.
    What they can do is look up your PIN and see does it match the one on your card. They can also check if there was more than one card order. Depending on the outcome of that, they can order a new card and when that is done a new PIN is automatically generated which they can look up and give to you.


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    #857
    PabloAndRoy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭PabloAndRoy


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    That's highly unusual. But possibly a breakdown in broadband connection. Not much can be done in that case except follow the procedure outlined above and re-date the scores.

    Edit: As an aside, were scores entered on the day and just didn't reach the portal?

    I suspect what is happening is that whoever is managing the software doesn't "push the button" until the Sunday morning, after the next comp has started! Three weeks in a row this has happened.


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    #858
    blue note
    Registered Users Posts: 4,508 ✭✭✭blue note


    It's interesting looking at your rounds in it and how the figures compare.

    My index is 17.2.
    My average of my last 20 rounds is 22.3.
    My average of the non counting rounds is 25.8.
    My average from my last 4 rounds (I've been so bad!) is 28.6.
    My average pre pandemic was 20.1 (12 rounds). My average some the pandemic started in 2020 is 25.6 (8 rounds).

    It gives a bit of insight into how your actually doing. As opposed to just looking at .1s back in the old system. I've clearly fallen off a cliff since the pandemic started last year.


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    #859
    thewobbler
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭thewobbler


    Apologies if this has been done already.

    If my playing handicap today is 17.4 (17)

    Is my competition handicap then calculated as:

    A) 17.4 * 0.95 = 16.53 (17), or

    B) 17 * 0.95 = 16.15 (16)?


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    #860
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,201 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    PabloAndRoy wrote: »
    I suspect what is happening is that whoever is managing the software doesn't "push the button" until the Sunday morning, after the next comp has started! Three weeks in a row this has happened.
    Unless they're using some weird software, there's no button-pushing required. Literally within minutes of a score being entered on Handicap Master or HowDidIDo, it's uploaded to the WHS portal. Doesn't require the comp to be closed or any procedure other than the score being entered.


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    #861
    PabloAndRoy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭PabloAndRoy


    thewobbler wrote: »
    Apologies if this has been done already.

    If my playing course handicap today is 17.4 (17)

    Is my competition playing handicap then calculated as:

    A) 17.4 * 0.95 = 16.53 (17), or

    B) 17 * 0.95 = 16.15 (16)?

    Double Rounding so (B) 16


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    #862
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,201 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    thewobbler wrote: »
    Apologies if this has been done already.

    If my playing handicap today is 17.4 (17)

    Is my competition handicap then calculated as:

    A) 17.4 * 0.95 = 16.53 (17), or

    B) 17 * 0.95 = 16.15 (16)?
    I think you're confusing terms here. You start with your Handicap Index. Then based on the tees used, calculate your Course Handicap using the formula HI*SR/113 which is converted to the nearest integer. So a Course Handicap of 18.9 becomes 19 and 18.4 becomes 18.

    You then take that integer value and apply the percentage for the format of play. So 18 x 95% etc. That is also rounded to the nearest integer and is your Playing Handicap for the day.


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    #863
    PabloAndRoy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭PabloAndRoy


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Unless they're using some weird software, there's no button-pushing required. Literally within minutes of a score being entered on Handicap Master or HowDidIDo, it's uploaded to the WHS portal. Doesn't require the comp to be closed or any procedure other than the score being entered.

    Ah OK ... I misunderstood that. I thought the comp had to be closed for the score to go up. I must check this saturday after I enter my score.

    What about the PCC? Surely that is related to the comp being closed or at least all the scores being entered?

    I use masterscorboard for score entry, so I assume the backend is Handicap Master.


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    #864
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users Posts: 2,885 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    blue note wrote: »
    It's interesting looking at your rounds in it and how the figures compare.

    My index is 17.2.
    My average of my last 20 rounds is 22.3.
    My average of the non counting rounds is 25.8.
    My average from my last 4 rounds (I've been so bad!) is 28.6.
    My average pre pandemic was 20.1 (12 rounds). My average some the pandemic started in 2020 is 25.6 (8 rounds).

    It gives a bit of insight into how your actually doing. As opposed to just looking at .1s back in the old system. I've clearly fallen off a cliff since the pandemic started last year.

    that's great insight in fairness. you should start seeing an increas in your HI soon then should you? I'm the opposite to you I'm on a downward trend since the pandemic started. Your game will come back though!

    My average of my last 20 excluding 2 NR's is 11.5 and my HI is 8.3. Pre-covid i would have been 9.7.


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    #865
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,201 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    PabloAndRoy wrote: »
    Ah OK ... I misunderstood that. I thought the comp had to be closed for the score to go up. I must check this saturday after I enter my score.

    What about the PCC? Surely that is related to the comp being closed or at least all the scores being entered?
    The PCC is applied overnight and includes ALL reported rounds for the day, not just competition ones. And again, it's automatic based on scores entered, not competitions being closed.
    PabloAndRoy wrote: »
    I use masterscorboard for score entry, so I assume the backend is Handicap Master.
    Yep.


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    #866
    thewobbler
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭thewobbler


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I think you're confusing terms here. You start with your Handicap Index. Then based on the tees used, calculate your Course Handicap using the formula HI*SR/113 which is converted to the nearest integer. So a Course Handicap of 18.9 becomes 19 and 18.4 becomes 18.

    You then take that integer value and apply the percentage for the format of play. So 18 x 95% etc. That is also rounded to the nearest integer and is your Playing Handicap for the day.

    I get the first steps. Was never sure whether to use the integer or decimal value on the playing handicap by 95%. Thanks


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    #867
    Ivefoundgod
    Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭Ivefoundgod


    Anyone know how long it takes to update a new members handicap? I gave in my cards Monday evening, rang the secretary who said he'd look after it yesterday and text me but still haven't heard anything. Is there a committee in most clubs or something it needs to go through? Presidents prize is this weekend and although I can't win it as a new member I'd like to have had the option to play it but tee times nearly all gone now and don't want to piss them off by sticking my name down with handicap still pending.


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    #868
    RGS
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭RGS


    Ivefoundgod wrote: »
    Anyone know how long it takes to update a new members handicap? I gave in my cards Monday evening, rang the secretary who said he'd look after it yesterday and text me but still haven't heard anything. Is there a committee in most clubs or something it needs to go through? Presidents prize is this weekend and although I can't win it as a new member I'd like to have had the option to play it but tee times nearly all gone now and don't want to piss them off by sticking my name down with handicap still pending.



    It doesn't take long to imput the three scores and the handicap is available immediately.
    As I'm the HC in our club I will do it as soon as I get the cards and issue an email to the member without delay.
    other clubs may have a different process but it would be no harm in a gentle reminder.


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    #869
    square ball
    Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭square ball


    Took me about 10 days for first handicap in my club.


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    #870
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,201 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Ivefoundgod wrote: »
    Anyone know how long it takes to update a new members handicap? I gave in my cards Monday evening, rang the secretary who said he'd look after it yesterday and text me but still haven't heard anything. Is there a committee in most clubs or something it needs to go through? Presidents prize is this weekend and although I can't win it as a new member I'd like to have had the option to play it but tee times nearly all gone now and don't want to piss them off by sticking my name down with handicap still pending.
    Have you registered with Golf Ireland? If the cards have been entered, they'll appear on your record almost immediately.


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    #871
    Ivefoundgod
    Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭Ivefoundgod


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Have you registered with Golf Ireland? If the cards have been entered, they'll appear on your record almost immediately.

    Yeah I'm registered with Golf Ireland. I've two scores there which are part of my handicap submissions where I have the physical card gone in as well but was told by the secretary that my initial 3 cards won't appear on GI app unless I pre-registered the round like in those 2 scores. No updates been made and just says handicap pending still in the GI. I'll give them a shout later today and see if there's an issue.


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