Planning permission granted for 471 apartments at former Chivers site

Beta Ray Bill · 27-08-2019 12:59pm #1

This has "Terrible Idea" written all over it.

Planning permission has been granted for 471 apartments at the old Chivers Jam site, located here:
https://goo.gl/maps/L3jpGHiXb2s7iXXL8
The site has been vacant for a very long time, and it definitely needed something done with it, but not nearly 500 apartments.

The "type" of apartments they're most likely to build will have (IMO) a severely negative impact on an area that is already struggling with crime and anti social behavior.

I don't understand how this has been granted.
The apartment blocks are going to be 10 stories high, which is far higher than anything around it. It is also surrounded by factories

Have people forgotten about Ballymun and Kilbarrack flats!?
Those "developments" were literally a 101 on how NOT to do a block of apartments.
And here we are repeating the same steps again?
You only have to look at high density proxy council estates like Clongriffin to confirm that these types of developments are a seriously bad idea.

Why cant they just build Duplex apartments that are 3 levels high, instead of trying to pack everyone in.
Obviously this has gone through the new fast track planning system.
I think the fast track planning should only be allowed for infrastructure or public buildings. (Not for residential, commercial, industrial developments)

The mind boggles!

Anger as planning permission granted for 471 apartments at former Chivers site

There is anger in the Coolock area of Dublin that planning permission has been granted for a 471 apartment complex.

An Bord Pleanála gave the go-ahead last week for one of the biggest rent-to-build schemes undertaken to date.

Despite objections from residents and public representatives, the planning authority gave the green light for building to begin at the site of the former Chivers jam factory in Coolock.

According to today's Herald, the proposal was approved under the new fast-track Strategic Housing Development scheme which allows planning applications to by-pass approval by the local authority.

A senior planning inspector had originally described the project as "monolithic" and said it would "set an undesirable precedent" for suburban developments.

A spokesman for An Bord Pleanála said the only option for those seeking to overturn the decision is to launch a judicial review.

L1011 · 27-08-2019 1:02pm

Land values mean that you are never going to see three floor duplexes that close to the city ever again. You'd be building houses solidly from the city to Navan if that density was used.

Its beside a main road and will have a park to one side of it; not "surrounded by factories". The issues with Ballymun and Kilbarrack had nothing to do with them being tower blocks and would have happened with roads of three floor duplexes built in the same place if everything else remained the same.

The fast track system is specifically and only for residential applications, mainly to stop whimpering Councillors opposing construction.

RasTa · 27-08-2019 1:04pm

10 stories to low. Should have gone at least 20.

Beta Ray Bill · 27-08-2019 1:16pm

L1011 wrote: »

Land values mean that you are never going to see three floor duplexes that close to the city ever again. You'd be building houses solidly from the city to Navan if that density was used.

Sorry, but we're talking about one of the roughest parts of Dublin here.
There was 3 people from around that area shot dead within a number of days of each other a couple of months ago.
The land value is not high.

An old council house around the Glin are can be had for around €240-280k
Which is VERY low for Dublin.

These apartments should be getting built in the transitional zone of the City, not in the Suburbs.

The Gillick Bros bought the site in 2011 from someone who had gone bankrupt (no doubt they got it at a steal)

L1011 wrote: »

Its beside a main road and will have a park to one side of it; not "surrounded by factories". The issues with Ballymun and Kilbarrack had nothing to do with them being tower blocks and would have happened with roads of three floor duplexes built in the same place if everything else remained the same.

Agreed, the issue was the people that were moved into them. Which is exceptionally likely to happen here again, as is happening now in Clongriffin

mariaalice · 27-08-2019 1:17pm

L1011 wrote: »

Land values mean that you are never going to see three floor duplexes that close to the city ever again. You'd be building houses solidly from the city to Navan if that density was used.

Its beside a main road and will have a park to one side of it; not "surrounded by factories". The issues with Ballymun and Kilbarrack had nothing to do with them being tower blocks and would have happened with roads of three floor duplexes built in the same place if everything else remained the same.

The fast track system is specifically and only for residential applications, mainly to stop whimpering Councillors opposing construction.

Its almost an inner suburb of Dublin, its got very good transport links, unused industrial land in well-serviced mature areas such a Coolock will transfer to housing. The way people live is changing. Land-use changes over time

L1011 · 27-08-2019 1:18pm

Your idea of what is or isn't a high land value doesn't tally with anyone else. An ex council going for 240 indicates high values.

This is close to the city, equivalent distances to the South have been built up for decades

lola85 · 27-08-2019 1:19pm

Everyone ranting about the homeless and the government doing nothing, now it’s coming back to bite them as they are building everywhere now.

I’m delighted it has people angry.

NIMBYS.

mariaalice · 27-08-2019 1:23pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Sorry, but we're talking about one of the roughest parts of Dublin here.
There was 3 people from around that area shot dead within a number of days of each other a couple of months ago.
The land value is not high.

An old council house around the Glin are can be had for around €240-280k
Which is VERY low for Dublin.

These apartments should be getting built in the transitional zone of the City, not in the Suburbs.

The Gillick Bros bought the site in 2011 from someone who had gone bankrupt (no doubt they got it at a steal)

Agreed, the issue was the people that were moved into them. Which is exceptionally likely to happen here again, as is happening now in Clongriffin

It a very mixed area there are some very large mature houses in Coolock also good schools in any area with convent schools or christen brother schools tends to older mature areas of Dublin and be well established and have good transport links.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-08-2019 1:25pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

This has "Terrible Idea" written all over it.

Planning permission has been granted for 471 apartments at the old Chivers Jam site, located here:
https://goo.gl/maps/L3jpGHiXb2s7iXXL8
The site has been vacant for a very long time, and it definitely needed something done with it, but not nearly 500 apartments.

The mind boggles!

Anger as planning permission granted for 471 apartments at former Chivers site

And yet same people complaining will moan about homelessness and lack of housing.

500 places for people to live seems a good return for this site and will bring the area UP.

Fan of Netflix · 27-08-2019 1:27pm

We have a housing crisis we need houses. Tiring hearing so many NIMBYs in Dublin object to development. If you want peace and quiet move down the country.

Assetbacked · 27-08-2019 1:28pm

lola85 wrote: »

Everyone ranting about the homeless and the government doing nothing, now it’s coming back to bite them as they are building everywhere now.

I’m delighted it has people angry.

NIMBYS.

Pure and simple NIMBYism. That's all it is. So many "experts" on housing and planning crawl out of the woodwork when there's plans to introduce homes for the next generation in their area and spineless councillors like Aodhain O'Riordan lead campaigns to keep land values articifically high by opposing any new developments in their constituency. The sheeple grasp onto a soundbite that sounds like a legitimate reason to oppose a development and spout it out repeatedly in the hope they can crush a planning approval, eg "not opposed to development, just a more appropriate development keeping to the character of the area".

Fan of Netflix · 27-08-2019 1:29pm

lola85 wrote: »

Everyone ranting about the homeless and the government doing nothing, now it’s coming back to bite them as they are building everywhere now.

I’m delighted it has people angry.

NIMBYS.

They aren't building everywhere just Dublin and nearby commuter areas. Large swathes of the country have no building going on.

suicide_circus · 27-08-2019 1:29pm

OP, this will help the most vulnerable in society. Why do you hate homeless children?

Assetbacked · 27-08-2019 1:31pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

They aren't building everywhere just Dublin and nearby commuter areas. Large swathes of the country have no building going on.

Why? Because that's where the jobs are. It would be illogical and a waste to build outside Dublin as the jobs are in Dublin. We need to flood Dublin with properties until the crisis subsides.

NIMAN · 27-08-2019 1:31pm

We supposedly have a housing crisis, yet people can't wait to criticise every bit of planning that happens.

Ireland is full of bleeding heart folk who take nimbyism to new levels.

Beta Ray Bill · 27-08-2019 1:31pm

L1011 wrote: »

Your idea of what is or isn't a high land value doesn't tally with anyone else. An ex council going for 240 indicates high values.

I disagree, Coolock, Tallaght and Finglas are the lowest price areas in Dublin.
They are also the areas with the most social issues in Dublin.

So the idea of dumping another 1000-1500 people in to an already struggling area doesn't make sense to me at all.

L1011 wrote: »

This is close to the city, equivalent distances to the South have been built up for decades

Not really, not 10 stories high
Maybe, Tallaght and Parkwest (Lovely places btw

) they are about 6km out.
The exception is Dundrum which has a lot of privately owned apartments, for obvious reasons.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-08-2019 1:33pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I disagree, Coolock, Tallaght and Finglas are the lowest price areas in Dublin.
They are also the areas with the most social issues in Dublin.

So the idea of dumping another 1000-1500 people in to an already struggling area doesn't make sense to me at all.

Don't you think it might help "gentrify" the area more (for want of a better term) as most will presumably be working and private renters?

27-08-2019 1:33pm

Great news. Hopefully many more to follow.

Assetbacked · 27-08-2019 1:35pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I disagree, Coolock, Tallaght and Finglas are the lowest price areas in Dublin.
They are also the areas with the most social issues in Dublin.

So the idea of dumping another 1000-1500 people in to an already struggling area doesn't make sense to me at all.

How are you so blind not to see the benefit this brings? If the area is such a kip, as you indicate, surely bringing in 500 new homes will lead to future developments in transport and other amenities like new businesses. Is your alternative solution to leave the area decaying as you say it already is? It is around thirty mins on a bus into the IFSC, perfect for workers to commute. Stop moaning.

Beta Ray Bill · 27-08-2019 1:39pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Don't you think it might help "gentrify" the area more (for want of a better term) as most will presumably be working and private renters?

In some ways, on paper yes.
Private renters is a good idea.

However this is basically what Clongriffin is now.
It has not worked out well.
Clongriffin train station is basically a demilitarized zone after 9pm.
The Garda wont even go in there.

When you move a large number of struggling people with problems into a small area, it creates a massive problem.

This has been seen time and time again.

If the apartments were to buy I'd have not issue with this, but they are not to buy, they are to rent. The developers seem to be targeting the government HAP scheme. (Which is wrong)

mariaalice · 27-08-2019 1:40pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I disagree, Coolock, Tallaght and Finglas are the lowest price areas in Dublin.
They are also the areas with the most social issues in Dublin.

So the idea of dumping another 1000-1500 people in to an already struggling area doesn't make sense to me at all.

Not really, not 10 stories high
Maybe, Tallaght and Parkwest (Lovely places btw ) they are about 6km out.
The exception is Dundrum which has a lot of privately owned apartments, for obvious reasons.

I am being a bit tongue in cheek but honestly, some really do seem to belived some areas in Dublin are a forth world hell holde its laughable.

https://www.daft.ie/dublin/houses-for-sale/finglas/230-glasnevin-avenue-finglas-dublin-2228685/

mariaalice · 27-08-2019 1:42pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

In some ways, on paper yes.
Private renters is a good idea.

However this is basically what Clongriffin is now.
It has not worked out well.
Clongriffin train station is basically a demilitarized zone after 9pm.
The Garda wont even go in there.

When you move a large number of struggling people with problems into a small area, it creates a massive problem.

This has been seen time and time again.

If the apartments were to buy I'd have not issue with this, but they are not to buy, they are to rent. The developers seem to be targeting the government HAP scheme. (Which is wrong)

I kind of agree with you on that point, it should be a mixed development.

lola85 · 27-08-2019 1:42pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I kind of agree with you on that point, it should be a mixed development.

Who says it won’t?

L1011 · 27-08-2019 1:43pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I disagree, Coolock, Tallaght and Finglas are the lowest price areas in Dublin.
They are also the areas with the most social issues in Dublin.

Relative low prices which are still incredibly high

shesty · 27-08-2019 1:46pm

I'm angry because they ignored their Senior Inspector's report which made the valid points about significant investment in public transport and recreational facilities being required in the area before the development went ahead, and that she felt there are not sufficient employment opportunities in the area to support that level of an influx of people.

But sure hey, we will have loads more apartments in a field.Who cares about integrated planning?

lola85 · 27-08-2019 1:46pm

shesty wrote: »

I'm angry because they ignored their Senior Inspector's report which made the valid points about significant investment in public transport and recreational facilities being required in the area before the development went ahead, and that she felt there are not sufficient employment opportunities in the area to support that level of an influx of people.

But sure hey, we will have loads more apartments in a field.Who cares about integrated planning?

How do you know the people moving in don’t work?

shesty · 27-08-2019 1:49pm

I don't??
I said her report noted that she felt there was not enough work opportunities in the area to provide sufficient employment for the number of people that could be accommodated in the development.........

lola85 · 27-08-2019 1:50pm

shesty wrote: »

I don't??
I said her report noted that she felt there was not enough work opportunities in the area to provide sufficient employment for the number of people that could be accommodated in the development.........

That makes no sense.

They could all be working anyway.

Seems her report is made up of nonsense and that’s why it was ignored.

Varta · 27-08-2019 1:52pm

lola85 wrote: »

How do you know the people moving in don’t work?

We need more housing and it's fantastic that old industrial units are being turned into housing. In fact, there are many areas of industrial units around the city that should be turned into housing. However, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. We also need good planning. NIMBYs should not be listened to, but experienced, professional planners exist for a reason and their concerns should be taken on board.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-08-2019 1:54pm

shesty wrote: »

I don't??
I said her report noted that she felt there was not enough work opportunities in the area to provide sufficient employment for the number of people that could be accommodated in the development.........

There is plenty of buses in the immediate area and it's near the Malahide road.

That argument makes zero sense.

Most don't work locally.

lola85 · 27-08-2019 1:55pm

There is 4 shopping centers, cinema, 2 industrial estate etc all within walking distance.

Plenty of employment opportunities.

snotboogie · 27-08-2019 2:19pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

They aren't building everywhere just Dublin and nearby commuter areas. Large swathes of the country have no building going on.

There are 14 tower cranes in Cork (12 in the city and 2 in the commuter belt) now, far more than all of the non Dublin commuter counties combined, even though it's mostly offices and student apartments. Still there are 6 major housing and apartment schemes (Janeville, Ballinglanna, Millerd St, Harpers Creek and Maryborough Ridge) under construction right now for a total of about 2,000 units when all are completed. There is close to another 4,000 units in various stages of fast track and city council planning. To say there is nothing going on outside Dublin is completely untrue.

suicide_circus · 27-08-2019 2:40pm

Varta wrote: »

We need more housing and it's fantastic that old industrial units are being turned into housing. In fact, there are many areas of industrial units around the city that should be turned into housing. However, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. We also need good planning. NIMBYs should not be listened to, but experienced, professional planners exist for a reason and their concerns should be taken on board.

where did she gain her experience as a planner? because if it was working in ireland she can safely be ignored

atticu · 27-08-2019 2:43pm

shesty wrote: »

I'm angry because they ignored their Senior Inspector's report which made the valid points about significant investment in public transport and recreational facilities being required in the area before the development went ahead, and that she felt there are not sufficient employment opportunities in the area to support that level of an influx of people.

But sure hey, we will have loads more apartments in a field.Who cares about integrated planning?

Did you read the full report?

Varta · 27-08-2019 2:45pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

where did she gain her experience as a planner? because if it was working in ireland she can safely be ignored

The reason Ireland is the way it is, is because planners have always been ignored.

shesty · 27-08-2019 3:00pm

Yes I did.And I know the area.The point she is making is valid.People will commute naturally, but the point being made was that the public transport is already stretched in the area and landing a load more people in on it is not going to work.Just because there are "good transport links" in an area does not mean a free for all should happen in housing.We see it everywhere in the city, and surrounding area -sure there's a station and a good few buses, it's well linked up, let's throw up a load of houses.No thought given to how the services are currently operating, whether they are at capacity or not, and no plans for any kind of future investment or expansion of the transport network, in granting these permissions.

LirW · 27-08-2019 3:14pm

But this is an infrastructure problem rather than a housing one. It should be listened to, of course,same thing is going on in West Dublin where infrastructure is beyond breaking point but what's the solution?
Public transport is beyond its capacity everywhere in and around Dublin, should planning be blocked for every future apartment development and don't build units where units are needed until the department of transportation gets their sh*t together and magically solves this hot mess of transport in Dublin?
It would make sense if housing wouldn't be so badly needed but it's 2019 where people go into lifetime debt for any auld crumbling craphole this in somewhat of a commuter distance.

27-08-2019 3:16pm

if you dont want another ballymun then dont throw a load of ballymun types in there

simples

c.p.w.g.w · 27-08-2019 3:25pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

if you dont want another ballymun then dont throw a load of ballymun types in there

simples

Also maybe provide services and facilities

markodaly · 27-08-2019 3:28pm

Ten stories is nothing. These are build to rent, so the vast majority of people will be working. This will gentrify the area. I guess the OP lives around the place, so guess what? This may help your property price in the long run if you have a house.

You should welcome this, but I guess the NIMBY blood runs through your veins.

McMurphy · 27-08-2019 3:41pm

markodaly wrote: »

Ten stories is nothing. These are build to rent, so the vast majority of people will be working. This will gentrify the area. I guess the OP lives around the place, so guess what? This may help your property price in the long run if you have a house.

You should welcome this, but I guess the NIMBY blood runs through your veins.

Are you suggesting he's a Leo fan?

https://www.newstalk.com/newstalk-breakfast/criticism-as-leo-varadkar-opposes-fourstorey-development-in-his-constituency-523910

Beta Ray Bill · 27-08-2019 3:44pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Also maybe provide services and facilities

It's nothing to do with services and facilities.

People do not respect things they didn't have to earn and that were just given to them.
Every council estate in the country is a testimony to that.

That coupled with the fact that a large number of people in those places were out of work or in part time/low paid jobs because they weren't educated enough, didn't help the situation.
Toss alcohol and drugs in, and you have the perfect storm.

Hence the places went to sh*t.

What people don't realise is that Ireland's housing problem has been brewing for years and years, everyone just turned a blind eye to it.

There were no single mothers 40 years ago cause we f**ked them all into Magdeline laundries.
In the 80's we built council estates and dumped everyone that couldn't afford to buy a house into these estates.
In the 90's people bought in the likes of Naas, Enfield, Ashbourne as the houses there were advertised as only 15 mins outside Dublin which was horsesh*t. People had a bit of money then, so buying out there seemed like a good idea.
In the 00's everyone was paying outrageous prices for houses, banks were giving people in their 20's 100% mortgages that had never saved a penny in their lives
Now in the 10's the plan is to have these Proxy council estates like Clongriffin and Tyrellstown which are an absolute disaster. (Which is what this development is going to be)

The "housing crisis" is not a new thing.
But we keep making terrible short sighted decisions on housing which cause more problems than they solve.

Beta Ray Bill · 27-08-2019 3:45pm

markodaly wrote: »

Ten stories is nothing. These are build to rent, so the vast majority of people will be working. This will gentrify the area. I guess the OP lives around the place, so guess what? This may help your property price in the long run if you have a house.

You should welcome this, but I guess the NIMBY blood runs through your veins.

I live about 2.5kms away from Coolock, so this does not effect me (I also do not own a property at the moment)

We both know the Developer is targeting the HAP.

c.p.w.g.w · 27-08-2019 3:51pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

It's nothing to do with services and facilities.

People do not respect things they didn't have to earn and that were just given to them.
Every council estate in the country is a testimony to that.

That coupled with the fact that a large number of people in those places were out of work or in part time/low paid jobs because they weren't educated enough, didn't help the situation.
Toss alcohol and drugs in, and you have the perfect storm.

Hence the places went to sh*t.

What people don't realise is that Ireland's housing problem has been brewing for years and years, everyone just turned a blind eye to it.

There were no single mothers 40 years ago cause we f**ked them all into Magdeline laundries.
In the 80's we built council estates and dumped everyone that couldn't afford to buy a house into these estates.
In the 90's people bought in the likes of Naas, Enfield, Ashbourne as the houses there were advertised as only 15 mins outside Dublin which was horsesh*t. People had a bit of money then, so buying out there seemed like a good idea.
In the 00's everyone was paying outrageous prices for houses, banks were giving people in their 20's 100% mortgages that had never saved a penny in their lives
Now in the 10's the plan is to have these Proxy council estates like Clongriffin and Tyrellstown which are an absolute disaster. (Which is what this development is going to be)

The "housing crisis" is not a new thing.
But we keep making terrible short sighted decisions on housing which cause more problems than they solve.

Yeah loads of kids in one area, whose parents are likely poor...those kids get bored and make their own fun(likely to be illegal)... Provide them services that allow for a positive outlet and reduce the boredom

Beta Ray Bill · 27-08-2019 3:52pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Yeah loads of kids in one area, whose parents are likely poor...those kids get bored and make their own fun(likely to be illegal)... Provide them services that allow for a positive outlet and reduce the boredom

You have a point, but this is a private company developing this.
They want the HAP money, they aren't a bit interested in services and facilities for kids eating into their profit

c.p.w.g.w · 27-08-2019 3:56pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

You have a point, but this is a private company developing this.
They want the HAP money, they aren't a bit interested in services and facilities for kids eating into their profit

It should be a condition of planning.

You get slums but just hoarding poor people into an area, and leave them alone without facilities. Ballymun is a prime example of this in the 80's

blanch152 · 27-08-2019 3:56pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Are you suggesting he's a Leo fan?

https://www.newstalk.com/newstalk-breakfast/criticism-as-leo-varadkar-opposes-fourstorey-development-in-his-constituency-523910

Utterly and painfully predictable post.

Any other old gifs and links that you would like to recycle again?

jay1988 · 27-08-2019 3:58pm

The major issue locally is that the plans that were submitted to local councillors to have the land rezoned origianlly, are a world away from what is now going to be built, ten storey blocks being built in that location isngoing to be a disaster.

Ballso · 27-08-2019 4:02pm

Are these not build to rent apartments for private renters? Where is the suggestion that they are a new Ballymun coming from?

blanch152 · 27-08-2019 4:03pm

Have had a look at Google Maps to remind me of the area.

Plenty of recreational facilities in the area, from the LeisurePlex to Parnells, from St. Johns Vianney to the Omniplex.

Plenty of schools and parks, Beaumont hospital nearby. Coolock Village for the pubs and churches. Artane and Northside Shopping Centres.

Hard to think of a better place to put 471 apartments.

The public transport links could do with improvement but that is what Bus Connects is for.

At 25 minutes, Harmonstown Dart station is a bit of a walk, but if your employment is near a Dart station on the other end, you can get your daily steps in.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-08-2019 4:06pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

The developers seem to be targeting the government HAP scheme. (Which is wrong)

I'd agree with your point if it was a 100% social housing scheme. It isn't though.

Some people on HAP also work as well even though they are struggling. And there are plenty of workers who want to rent, have nothing to do with HAP, and just want a roof.

So I don't agree it would be another Ballymun. I think that's way ott reaction.

Planning permission granted for 471 apartments at former Chivers site

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