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Planning permission granted for 471 apartments at former Chivers site

  • 27-08-2019 11:59am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,764 ✭✭✭ Beta Ray Bill


    This has "Terrible Idea" written all over it.

    Planning permission has been granted for 471 apartments at the old Chivers Jam site, located here:
    https://goo.gl/maps/L3jpGHiXb2s7iXXL8
    The site has been vacant for a very long time, and it definitely needed something done with it, but not nearly 500 apartments.

    The "type" of apartments they're most likely to build will have (IMO) a severely negative impact on an area that is already struggling with crime and anti social behavior.

    I don't understand how this has been granted.
    The apartment blocks are going to be 10 stories high, which is far higher than anything around it. It is also surrounded by factories

    Have people forgotten about Ballymun and Kilbarrack flats!?
    Those "developments" were literally a 101 on how NOT to do a block of apartments.
    And here we are repeating the same steps again?
    You only have to look at high density proxy council estates like Clongriffin to confirm that these types of developments are a seriously bad idea.

    Why cant they just build Duplex apartments that are 3 levels high, instead of trying to pack everyone in.
    Obviously this has gone through the new fast track planning system.
    I think the fast track planning should only be allowed for infrastructure or public buildings. (Not for residential, commercial, industrial developments)

    The mind boggles!

    Anger as planning permission granted for 471 apartments at former Chivers site
    There is anger in the Coolock area of Dublin that planning permission has been granted for a 471 apartment complex.

    An Bord Pleanála gave the go-ahead last week for one of the biggest rent-to-build schemes undertaken to date.

    Despite objections from residents and public representatives, the planning authority gave the green light for building to begin at the site of the former Chivers jam factory in Coolock.

    According to today's Herald, the proposal was approved under the new fast-track Strategic Housing Development scheme which allows planning applications to by-pass approval by the local authority.

    A senior planning inspector had originally described the project as "monolithic" and said it would "set an undesirable precedent" for suburban developments.

    A spokesman for An Bord Pleanála said the only option for those seeking to overturn the decision is to launch a judicial review.


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Comments

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Land values mean that you are never going to see three floor duplexes that close to the city ever again. You'd be building houses solidly from the city to Navan if that density was used.

    Its beside a main road and will have a park to one side of it; not "surrounded by factories". The issues with Ballymun and Kilbarrack had nothing to do with them being tower blocks and would have happened with roads of three floor duplexes built in the same place if everything else remained the same.

    The fast track system is specifically and only for residential applications, mainly to stop whimpering Councillors opposing construction.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 RasTa


    10 stories to low. Should have gone at least 20.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,764 ✭✭✭ Beta Ray Bill


    L1011 wrote: »
    Land values mean that you are never going to see three floor duplexes that close to the city ever again. You'd be building houses solidly from the city to Navan if that density was used.

    Sorry, but we're talking about one of the roughest parts of Dublin here.
    There was 3 people from around that area shot dead within a number of days of each other a couple of months ago.
    The land value is not high.

    An old council house around the Glin are can be had for around €240-280k
    Which is VERY low for Dublin.

    These apartments should be getting built in the transitional zone of the City, not in the Suburbs.

    The Gillick Bros bought the site in 2011 from someone who had gone bankrupt (no doubt they got it at a steal)
    L1011 wrote: »
    Its beside a main road and will have a park to one side of it; not "surrounded by factories". The issues with Ballymun and Kilbarrack had nothing to do with them being tower blocks and would have happened with roads of three floor duplexes built in the same place if everything else remained the same.

    Agreed, the issue was the people that were moved into them. Which is exceptionally likely to happen here again, as is happening now in Clongriffin


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    L1011 wrote: »
    Land values mean that you are never going to see three floor duplexes that close to the city ever again. You'd be building houses solidly from the city to Navan if that density was used.

    Its beside a main road and will have a park to one side of it; not "surrounded by factories". The issues with Ballymun and Kilbarrack had nothing to do with them being tower blocks and would have happened with roads of three floor duplexes built in the same place if everything else remained the same.

    The fast track system is specifically and only for residential applications, mainly to stop whimpering Councillors opposing construction.

    Its almost an inner suburb of Dublin, its got very good transport links, unused industrial land in well-serviced mature areas such a Coolock will transfer to housing. The way people live is changing. Land-use changes over time


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Your idea of what is or isn't a high land value doesn't tally with anyone else. An ex council going for 240 indicates high values.

    This is close to the city, equivalent distances to the South have been built up for decades


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭ lola85


    Everyone ranting about the homeless and the government doing nothing, now it’s coming back to bite them as they are building everywhere now.

    I’m delighted it has people angry.

    NIMBYS.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    Sorry, but we're talking about one of the roughest parts of Dublin here.
    There was 3 people from around that area shot dead within a number of days of each other a couple of months ago.
    The land value is not high.

    An old council house around the Glin are can be had for around €240-280k
    Which is VERY low for Dublin.

    These apartments should be getting built in the transitional zone of the City, not in the Suburbs.

    The Gillick Bros bought the site in 2011 from someone who had gone bankrupt (no doubt they got it at a steal)



    Agreed, the issue was the people that were moved into them. Which is exceptionally likely to happen here again, as is happening now in Clongriffin

    It a very mixed area there are some very large mature houses in Coolock also good schools in any area with convent schools or christen brother schools tends to older mature areas of Dublin and be well established and have good transport links.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,666 ✭✭✭✭ Kermit.de.frog


    This has "Terrible Idea" written all over it.

    Planning permission has been granted for 471 apartments at the old Chivers Jam site, located here:
    https://goo.gl/maps/L3jpGHiXb2s7iXXL8
    The site has been vacant for a very long time, and it definitely needed something done with it, but not nearly 500 apartments.


    The mind boggles!

    Anger as planning permission granted for 471 apartments at former Chivers site

    And yet same people complaining will moan about homelessness and lack of housing.


    NIMBYcomic.jpg

    500 places for people to live seems a good return for this site and will bring the area UP.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ Fan of Netflix


    We have a housing crisis we need houses. Tiring hearing so many NIMBYs in Dublin object to development. If you want peace and quiet move down the country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭ Assetbacked


    lola85 wrote: »
    Everyone ranting about the homeless and the government doing nothing, now it’s coming back to bite them as they are building everywhere now.

    I’m delighted it has people angry.

    NIMBYS.

    Pure and simple NIMBYism. That's all it is. So many "experts" on housing and planning crawl out of the woodwork when there's plans to introduce homes for the next generation in their area and spineless councillors like Aodhain O'Riordan lead campaigns to keep land values articifically high by opposing any new developments in their constituency. The sheeple grasp onto a soundbite that sounds like a legitimate reason to oppose a development and spout it out repeatedly in the hope they can crush a planning approval, eg "not opposed to development, just a more appropriate development keeping to the character of the area".


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ Fan of Netflix


    lola85 wrote: »
    Everyone ranting about the homeless and the government doing nothing, now it’s coming back to bite them as they are building everywhere now.

    I’m delighted it has people angry.

    NIMBYS.
    They aren't building everywhere just Dublin and nearby commuter areas. Large swathes of the country have no building going on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭ suicide_circus


    OP, this will help the most vulnerable in society. Why do you hate homeless children?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭ Assetbacked


    They aren't building everywhere just Dublin and nearby commuter areas. Large swathes of the country have no building going on.

    Why? Because that's where the jobs are. It would be illogical and a waste to build outside Dublin as the jobs are in Dublin. We need to flood Dublin with properties until the crisis subsides.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,154 ✭✭✭✭ NIMAN


    We supposedly have a housing crisis, yet people can't wait to criticise every bit of planning that happens.

    Ireland is full of bleeding heart folk who take nimbyism to new levels.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,764 ✭✭✭ Beta Ray Bill


    L1011 wrote: »
    Your idea of what is or isn't a high land value doesn't tally with anyone else. An ex council going for 240 indicates high values.

    I disagree, Coolock, Tallaght and Finglas are the lowest price areas in Dublin.
    They are also the areas with the most social issues in Dublin.

    So the idea of dumping another 1000-1500 people in to an already struggling area doesn't make sense to me at all.
    L1011 wrote: »
    This is close to the city, equivalent distances to the South have been built up for decades

    Not really, not 10 stories high
    Maybe, Tallaght and Parkwest (Lovely places btw :( ) they are about 6km out.
    The exception is Dundrum which has a lot of privately owned apartments, for obvious reasons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,666 ✭✭✭✭ Kermit.de.frog


    I disagree, Coolock, Tallaght and Finglas are the lowest price areas in Dublin.
    They are also the areas with the most social issues in Dublin.

    So the idea of dumping another 1000-1500 people in to an already struggling area doesn't make sense to me at all.




    Don't you think it might help "gentrify" the area more (for want of a better term) as most will presumably be working and private renters?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,336 ✭✭✭✭ Maryanne84


    Great news. Hopefully many more to follow.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭ Assetbacked


    I disagree, Coolock, Tallaght and Finglas are the lowest price areas in Dublin.
    They are also the areas with the most social issues in Dublin.

    So the idea of dumping another 1000-1500 people in to an already struggling area doesn't make sense to me at all.

    How are you so blind not to see the benefit this brings? If the area is such a kip, as you indicate, surely bringing in 500 new homes will lead to future developments in transport and other amenities like new businesses. Is your alternative solution to leave the area decaying as you say it already is? It is around thirty mins on a bus into the IFSC, perfect for workers to commute. Stop moaning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,764 ✭✭✭ Beta Ray Bill


    Don't you think it might help "gentrify" the area more (for want of a better term) as most will presumably be working and private renters?

    In some ways, on paper yes.
    Private renters is a good idea.

    However this is basically what Clongriffin is now.
    It has not worked out well.
    Clongriffin train station is basically a demilitarized zone after 9pm.
    The Garda wont even go in there.

    When you move a large number of struggling people with problems into a small area, it creates a massive problem.

    This has been seen time and time again.

    If the apartments were to buy I'd have not issue with this, but they are not to buy, they are to rent. The developers seem to be targeting the government HAP scheme. (Which is wrong)


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    I disagree, Coolock, Tallaght and Finglas are the lowest price areas in Dublin.
    They are also the areas with the most social issues in Dublin.

    So the idea of dumping another 1000-1500 people in to an already struggling area doesn't make sense to me at all.



    Not really, not 10 stories high
    Maybe, Tallaght and Parkwest (Lovely places btw :( ) they are about 6km out.
    The exception is Dundrum which has a lot of privately owned apartments, for obvious reasons.

    I am being a bit tongue in cheek but honestly, some really do seem to belived some areas in Dublin are a forth world hell holde its laughable.

    https://www.daft.ie/dublin/houses-for-sale/finglas/230-glasnevin-avenue-finglas-dublin-2228685/


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    In some ways, on paper yes.
    Private renters is a good idea.

    However this is basically what Clongriffin is now.
    It has not worked out well.
    Clongriffin train station is basically a demilitarized zone after 9pm.
    The Garda wont even go in there.

    When you move a large number of struggling people with problems into a small area, it creates a massive problem.

    This has been seen time and time again.

    If the apartments were to buy I'd have not issue with this, but they are not to buy, they are to rent. The developers seem to be targeting the government HAP scheme. (Which is wrong)


    I kind of agree with you on that point, it should be a mixed development.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭ lola85


    mariaalice wrote: »
    I kind of agree with you on that point, it should be a mixed development.

    Who says it won’t?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    I disagree, Coolock, Tallaght and Finglas are the lowest price areas in Dublin.
    They are also the areas with the most social issues in Dublin.

    Relative low prices which are still incredibly high


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭ shesty


    I'm angry because they ignored their Senior Inspector's report which made the valid points about significant investment in public transport and recreational facilities being required in the area before the development went ahead, and that she felt there are not sufficient employment opportunities in the area to support that level of an influx of people.

    But sure hey, we will have loads more apartments in a field.Who cares about integrated planning?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭ lola85


    shesty wrote: »
    I'm angry because they ignored their Senior Inspector's report which made the valid points about significant investment in public transport and recreational facilities being required in the area before the development went ahead, and that she felt there are not sufficient employment opportunities in the area to support that level of an influx of people.

    But sure hey, we will have loads more apartments in a field.Who cares about integrated planning?

    How do you know the people moving in don’t work?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭ shesty


    I don't??
    I said her report noted that she felt there was not enough work opportunities in the area to provide sufficient employment for the number of people that could be accommodated in the development.........


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭ lola85


    shesty wrote: »
    I don't??
    I said her report noted that she felt there was not enough work opportunities in the area to provide sufficient employment for the number of people that could be accommodated in the development.........

    That makes no sense.

    They could all be working anyway.

    Seems her report is made up of nonsense and that’s why it was ignored.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 519 Varta


    lola85 wrote: »
    How do you know the people moving in don’t work?

    We need more housing and it's fantastic that old industrial units are being turned into housing. In fact, there are many areas of industrial units around the city that should be turned into housing. However, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. We also need good planning. NIMBYs should not be listened to, but experienced, professional planners exist for a reason and their concerns should be taken on board.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,666 ✭✭✭✭ Kermit.de.frog


    shesty wrote: »
    I don't??
    I said her report noted that she felt there was not enough work opportunities in the area to provide sufficient employment for the number of people that could be accommodated in the development.........

    There is plenty of buses in the immediate area and it's near the Malahide road.

    That argument makes zero sense.

    Most don't work locally.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭ lola85


    There is 4 shopping centers, cinema, 2 industrial estate etc all within walking distance.

    Plenty of employment opportunities.


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