Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

Dyr · 17-08-2020 9:57pm

blanch152 wrote: »

There it is again, the one-upmanship that sees one community delight in prospering at the expense of the other. The Northern Irish education system is a disgrace. That you delight in a slightly less bad outcome for your "side" says it all.

Im "delighting" in it now and we have the assumption that not only is segregation the cause of Norn Irons education ills but that is hurting catholic schools too now as well, fascinating stuff.

The reality is that education standard at primary level in a lot of the UK is **** in comparison to ours

The other bitter truth in the North is that catholic religious orders run high achieving schools and quite often catholics value education more than protestants as a result of the history of discrimination which caused catholic schools to be strongly integrated into the community through multiple connections. Thats not my opinion thats a QUB study commisioned by the NI executive

Apartheid mar dhea

Dyr · 17-08-2020 9:59pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Northern Ireland will limp on as long as the UK exists but if Scotland ever quits then it’s game over for Irish unionism; the British interest in Ireland is largely predicated on maintaining the wider union. If that’s no longer viable you’ll see a long term strategy for unity put in place by the British themselves I’d say.

TBH its just as likely that the English will start looking for independance from the rest of em in medium term.

blanch152 · 18-08-2020 9:20am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Forget it. This state is founded on a 32 county Ireland, governed by the people of Ireland, with the British state out, and you'll never be able to wish that away.

Outdated concepts of nationality linked to territory are on the way out.

Your type of rhetoric has no future in a multicultural, inclusive society. Integration and acceptance of the British heritage on this island, distinct and separate, but part of us, is what is needed to move on.

FrancieBrady · 18-08-2020 9:26am

blanch152 wrote: »

Outdated concepts of nationality linked to territory are on the way out.

Your type of rhetoric has no future in a multicultural, inclusive society. Integration and acceptance of the British heritage on this island, distinct and separate, but part of us, is what is needed to move on.

We in the south have shown how to accept our British heritage. The insistence of otherness is coming from a minority under self imposed siege.

What is outdated about a progressive vision of an island united as one entity in seeking economic prosperity, health security and a progressive inclusive society for all?

downcow · 18-08-2020 9:36am

maccored wrote: »

'Northern Ireland' was designed to fail unless it was propped up by the british government. it shouldnt exist basically.

That’s is the only way a united island has ever existed in our history ie when propped up bey the brits

mariaalice · 18-08-2020 9:56am

Something you do not hear much discussion on.

There is very little respect or interest in the religious orders in the Republic of Ireland, there is a big push to get religious orders out of education and a push for non-domination inclusive education here. That is not the position in NI

Culturally catholicism has developed differently in NI so I suspect if a united Ireland ever came about a lot of NI Catholics would feel as alienated as there unionist brethren.

Dyr · 18-08-2020 9:59am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We in the south have shown how to accept our British heritage. The insistence of otherness is coming from a minority under self imposed siege.

What is outdated about a progressive vision of an island united as one entity in seeking economic prosperity, health security and a progressive inclusive society for all?

An island without partition, where the North is no longer stuck in a sectarian rut? Don't be scaring people

mariaalice · 18-08-2020 10:02am

Bambi wrote: »

An island without partition, where the North is no longer stuck in a sectarian rut? Don't be scaring people

How would a united Ireland cure sectarianism?

Junkyard Tom · 18-08-2020 10:03am

blanch152 wrote: »

Outdated concepts of nationality linked to territory are on the way out.

Your history of hilariously bad predictions continues.

Your type of rhetoric has no future in a multicultural, inclusive society.

My type of rhetoric is perfectly congruent with a multicultural, inclusive society.

Integration and acceptance of the British heritage on this island, distinct and separate, but part of us, is what is needed to move on.

For sure, but the pseudo-British aspects need to be contained in the north east of Ireland because, I'm sure you'll agree, anachronistic organisations like the Orange Order that expel members for marrying a Catholic, but not murdering one, have no place in a multicultural, inclusive society.

Take your time untangling yourself from that spaghetti of knots you've tied yourself up in and the next time you quote me try answering the points rather than ones you've imagined.

jh79 · 18-08-2020 10:07am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is outdated about a progressive vision of an island united as one entity in seeking economic prosperity, health security and a progressive inclusive society for all?

Nothing but that does not necessarily mean it will work. There is nothing to stop NI from being progressive, inclusive and having economic prosperity either as it is, if the people want it.

FrancieBrady · 18-08-2020 10:10am

jh79 wrote: »

Nothing but that does not necessarily mean it will work. There is nothing to stop NI from being progressive, inclusive and having economic prosperity either as it is, if the people want it.

How many centuries do you want to give it, before you accept it's a failure?

Annd9 · 18-08-2020 10:10am

Northern Ireland wasn't set up to fail , it was set up to prevent civil war . The liberals gave in to the threat's from Carson as they could see their majority slip away and Bonar laws conservative's had the upper hand . Hence why Redmond was thrown under a bus .

The British government of the time Asquith, Churchill, Lloyd George couldn't have given two ****s about the north , this was all about keeping power . It was ment to be a temporary solution to keep the votes coming in but here we are 100 years later .....

As for the 6 counties being included in this new region , Carson wanted the 9 , Asquith suggested 3 so as happy medium we now have 6 .

I do have one question for unionists on this thread , do they think the British government (or people) really cares about the North ? If the answer is yes could they give some recent examples ? If no why cling on to people who show obvious contempt for the region ?

jh79 · 18-08-2020 10:15am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How many centuries do you want to give it, before you accept it's a failure?

That's for the people for NI to decide.

Fionn1952 · 18-08-2020 10:19am

blanch152 wrote: »

Outdated concepts of nationality linked to territory are on the way out.

Your type of rhetoric has no future in a multicultural, inclusive society. Integration and acceptance of the British heritage on this island, distinct and separate, but part of us, is what is needed to move on.

How can you say this with a straight face.....when your proposal to solve the whole problem was..........

Wait for it!

The creation of a new nation state based on the Northern Irish nationality and territory.

You can see the problem here, right?

FrancieBrady · 18-08-2020 12:12pm

jh79 wrote: »

That's for the people for NI to decide.

When do they get to decide jh79?

Nationalists had their minds made up for them and have never been given a choice again in a free and democratic way. Unless you count the sham 1973 referendum.

Shefwedfan · 18-08-2020 12:16pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When do they get to decide jh79?

Nationalists had their minds made up for them and have never been given a choice again in a free and democratic way. Unless you count the sham 1973 referendum.

Same can be said of the protestant people living in Rep of Ireland after 1922.

Don't see you mentioning anything about them? but then that doesn't suit your narrative does it?

FrancieBrady · 18-08-2020 12:21pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Same can be said of the protestant people living in Rep of Ireland after 1922.

Don't see you mentioning anything about them? but then that doesn't suit your narrative does it?

Do you think we should learn from history or ignore it and do the same thing again?

jh79 · 18-08-2020 12:28pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When do they get to decide jh79?

Nationalists had their minds made up for them and have never been given a choice again in a free and democratic way. Unless you count the sham 1973 referendum.

When the SoS decides the time is right as set out in the GFA.

jm08 · 18-08-2020 12:45pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Same can be said of the protestant people living in Rep of Ireland after 1922.

Don't see you mentioning anything about them? but then that doesn't suit your narrative does it?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that protestants in the Republic were treated the same way as catholics in Northern Ireland?

For example, proportional representation (imposed by Britain) was retained to ensure that the minority protestants were not excluded. The opposite happened in Northern Ireland. The Stormont Government changed it to First Past the Post to exclude catholics.

Shefwedfan · 18-08-2020 12:45pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do you think we should learn from history or ignore it and do the same thing again?

Well you seemed to have picked up very little

According to you the "Unionist" are to blame for everyting. Maybe its time to grow up.....

FrancieBrady · 18-08-2020 12:48pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Well you seemed to have picked up very little

According to you the "Unionist" are to blame for everyting. Maybe its time to grow up.....

Maybe it's time you backed up something you say,

How about finding where I 'blamed Unionists for everything'.

Shefwedfan · 18-08-2020 12:50pm

jm08 wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to suggest that protestants in the Republic were treated the same way as catholics in Northern Ireland?

So what happened to them?

ancapailldorcha · 18-08-2020 12:52pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So what happened to them?

Very little if anything in my experience.

FrancieBrady · 18-08-2020 12:54pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So what happened to them?

Maybe read their own testimonies Shef...they are out there

onh81 · 18-08-2020 12:54pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Well you seemed to have picked up very little

According to you the "Unionist" are to blame for everyting. Maybe its time to grow up.....

Hmm essentially a single party state that brought us such wonders like the Special Powers Act and Internment... but you’re right, Unionists aren’t to blame. Westminster let it happen.

blanch152 · 18-08-2020 1:09pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When do they get to decide jh79?

Nationalists had their minds made up for them and have never been given a choice again in a free and democratic way. Unless you count the sham 1973 referendum.

We have been through this before about your ignorance of the figures for the 1973 referendum. Not only did a majority of those who voted reject independence, but the numbers constituted a majority of the electorate. That means that if every single person who abstained/was sick/couldn't be bothered/was away had voted for independence, then independence would still have been rejected.

Those are the bare facts, indisputable facts, yet you still deny them. Incredible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Northern_Ireland_border_poll

591,820 out of an electorate of 1,030,084 rejected independence.

TheBoyConor · 18-08-2020 1:11pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Very little if anything in my experience.

They are still there. They walk among us.

ancapailldorcha · 18-08-2020 1:15pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

They are still there. They walk among us.

I'm from a Unionist Protestant family in the Republic. I'd say I count as part of the "they".

CrankyHaus · 18-08-2020 1:22pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So what happened to them?

Well one was made the first President. A bunch of them were appointed to the Seanad to promote inclusiveness.

Kaybaykwah · 18-08-2020 1:52pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Northern Ireland has no place in a modern Ireland.

Seeing as it is still a basket case, and for the foreseeable future, better let the UK carry the basket they wove.

FrancieBrady · 18-08-2020 1:58pm

blanch152 wrote: »

We have been through this before about your ignorance of the figures for the 1973 referendum. Not only did a majority of those who voted reject independence, but the numbers constituted a majority of the electorate. That means that if every single person who abstained/was sick/couldn't be bothered/was away had voted for independence, then independence would still have been rejected.

Those are the bare facts, indisputable facts, yet you still deny them. Incredible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Northern_Ireland_border_poll

591,820 out of an electorate of 1,030,084 rejected independence.

Yes 'we have been through it' and what emerged is that that referendum is something of a threadworn Unionist and partitionist comfort blanket...with most Unionists ignoring it as a sign of anything, such a sham that it was.

maccored · 18-08-2020 2:04pm

blanch152 wrote:

We have been through this before about your ignorance of the figures for the 1973 referendum. Not only did a majority of those who voted reject independence, but the numbers constituted a majority of the electorate. That means that if every single person who abstained/was sick/couldn't be bothered/was away had voted for independence, then independence would still have been rejected.

Those are the bare facts, indisputable facts, yet you still deny them. Incredible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_N...nd_border_poll

591,820 out of an electorate of 1,030,084 rejected independence.

to be frank though - the republic of ireland in 1973 was still in the 50's. no surprise if they wanted to stay in the UK almost 50 years ago. Long time ago - well due an update

jm08 · 18-08-2020 2:16pm

blanch152 wrote: »

We have been through this before about your ignorance of the figures for the 1973 referendum. Not only did a majority of those who voted reject independence, but the numbers constituted a majority of the electorate. That means that if every single person who abstained/was sick/couldn't be bothered/was away had voted for independence, then independence would still have been rejected.

Those are the bare facts, indisputable facts, yet you still deny them. Incredible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Northern_Ireland_border_poll

591,820 out of an electorate of 1,030,084 rejected independence.

According to the BBC only 1% of the catholic population voted (who were in the minority anyway). Are you surprised that unionists were rejecting a UI. You do realise that the nationalist parties (including SDLP) advised to boycott it.

downcow · 18-08-2020 5:02pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Well one was made the first President. A bunch of them were appointed to the Seanad to promote inclusiveness.

So why would you say the Protestant population dropped by 70% ?

Shefwedfan · 18-08-2020 5:06pm

downcow wrote: »

So why would you say the Protestant population dropped by 70% ?

Seemingly we are to disregard that fact.

FrancieBrady · 18-08-2020 5:12pm

downcow wrote: »

So why would you say the Protestant population dropped by 70% ?

You have asked this before and were presented with many sources to read on the subject. There are many reasons for the decline, this is a good summary of the reasons:

The exodus of tens of thousands of Protestants from the Irish Free State heralding the decline in the Protestant population was not as a result of sectarianism, intimidation or land-grabbing. Such views clearly promote a sectarian narrative about republican actions during the War of Independence and is not supported by evidence. Although some Irish Protestants were victims of a process of expulsion, coercion, and in some cases murder – acts which would have been abhorred by those who planned the Easter Rising – there are reasons other than those suggested by Prof Townshend.

A significant contributor to this population decline can be identified with the Great War and aggressively encouraged Protestant relocation north. The horrific slaughter of young Irish Protestant men in the first World War had a devastating and disproportionate impact on the male Protestant population of the South.

This was reflected in the birth rate for decades following the war. In addition, the Northern Ireland regime led by Sir James Craig enticed large numbers of Protestants, through the offer of government jobs and housing, to relocate north of the Border in an attempt to offset Catholic majorities in Border counties. Some in government service chose to leave with their families rather than enter the civil/public service of the Free State.

In addition, there was a large British military establishment in Ireland which was stood down in 1922. This group was disproportionately Protestant.

Others left because they no longer enjoyed social and official privilege being Protestant once brought.

Furthermore, the strong religious, cultural and political ties which southern Protestants had in common with the northern majority resulted in a sizable shift of Protestants north across the Border.

It is worth noting that two Protestants who decided to stay south subsequently became presidents of Ireland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/protestant-population-decline-1.1935463

downcow · 18-08-2020 5:12pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Seemingly we are to disregard that fact.

Yeah. It doesn’t fit with the narrative

TheBoyConor · 18-08-2020 5:13pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm from a Unionist Protestant family in the Republic. I'd say I count as part of the "they".

Out of interest, why did your family decide to stay in the 26 county republic rather than go back to England or go to the north? I would have thought a protestant unionist person would be happier amongst their own people.

Shefwedfan · 18-08-2020 5:16pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You have asked this before and were presented with many sources to read on the subject. There are many reasons for the decline, this is a good summary of the reasons:

Why not provide the source instead of copying and pasting one part Francie? or does it not suit your standard agenda??

Shefwedfan · 18-08-2020 5:18pm

downcow wrote: »

Yeah. It doesn’t fit with the narrative

It's the Sinn Fein narrative, if it doesn't suit that narrative it doesn't exist.

FrancieBrady · 18-08-2020 5:19pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Why not provide the source instead of copying and pasting one part Francie? or does it not suit your standard agenda??

Apologies...source added.

Shefwedfan · 18-08-2020 5:48pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You have asked this before and were presented with many sources to read on the subject. There are many reasons for the decline, this is a good summary of the reasons:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/protestant-population-decline-1.1935463

Your source is
TOM COOPER,
Templeville Road,
Templeogue,
Dublin 6W.

That's some randomers who sent a letter into the newspaper....

FrancieBrady · 18-08-2020 6:02pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Your source is
TOM COOPER,
Templeville Road,
Templeogue,
Dublin 6W.

That's some randomers who sent a letter into the newspaper....

Have at it Shef. He was only repeating what many studies show.
Tell us and downcow how it was different to what he has synopsised it. Downcow believes that FF and FG in government oversaw ethnic cleansing of protestants.

Awaiting you contrary evidence.

jm08 · 18-08-2020 6:09pm

downcow wrote: »

So why would you say the Protestant population dropped by 70% ?

I come from an area that would have been planted, and anecdotally I can tell you that at least three of the larger landowning protestant familes were hugely affected by the war. In most the families, all the sons were killed in WWI and a sister left to manage the farm and remain a spinster all her life because there was no one suitable for her to marry. Really sad, though her catholic neighbours were very kind and helpful to her.

My family home was bought from the local Landlord's agent who sold up and went to India I think. No one was sorry to see the back of him by the way!

Then you had people like Carson who encouraged protestants to move to Northern Ireland so as to increase the protestant majority, but he himself lived in England!

Thousands and thousands of people emigrated from Ireland in the 20s, 30s, 40s etc. up to fairly recently. Protestants were not the only ones who saw a reduction in numbers in Ireland during the 20th century.

downcow · 18-08-2020 6:23pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You have asked this before and were presented with many sources to read on the subject. There are many reasons for the decline, this is a good summary of the reasons:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/protestant-population-decline-1.1935463

I have read some nonsense in my time but that letter from the Dubliner takes the biscuit.
I googled his address and appears to be the leafy suburbs of Dublin. That’s like asking a grammar school boy who has just qualified as a lawyer in his daddy’s business, what is wrong with grammar schools?
My fathers family of 11 all left Roi and would all site discrimination and cold house as their reasons. My father got a job in Belfast on his arrival and was chucked out that afternoon because he didn’t have the right permit. He had to go to Manchester to get a job, so so much for Toms argument that they were encouraged up and promised jobs.

But sure time and a few on here know it was all the prods fault that they had to leave Roi. All this time the catholic population in ni was growing.

Spin it any way you like guys it hardly adds up

downcow · 18-08-2020 6:26pm

jm08 wrote: »

I come from an area that would have been planted, and anecdotally I can tell you that at least three of the larger landowning protestant familes were hugely affected by the war. In most the families, all the sons were killed in WWI and a sister left to manage the farm and remain a spinster all her life because there was no one suitable for her to marry. Really sad, though her catholic neighbours were very kind and helpful to her.

My family home was bought from the local Landlord's agent who sold up and went to India I think. No one was sorry to see the back of him by the way!

Then you had people like Carson who encouraged protestants to move to Northern Ireland so as to increase the protestant majority, but he himself lived in England!

Thousands and thousands of people emigrated from Ireland in the 20s, 30s, 40s etc. up to fairly recently. Protestants were not the only ones who saw a reduction in numbers in Ireland during the 20th century.

Jm08 don’t try and deflect from the percentages by throwing in irrelevant numbers.
The catholic majority grew while the Protestant minority was decimated. There really is no way to spin it to get yourselves out of this one

FrancieBrady · 18-08-2020 6:42pm

downcow wrote: »

I have read some nonsense in my time but that letter from the Dubliner takes the biscuit.
I googled his address and appears to be the leafy suburbs of Dublin. That’s like asking a grammar school boy who has just qualified as a lawyer in his daddy’s business, what is wrong with grammar schools?
My fathers family of 11 all left Roi and would all site discrimination and cold house as their reasons. My father got a job in Belfast on his arrival and was chucked out that afternoon because he didn’t have the right permit. He had to go to Manchester to get a job, so so much for Toms argument that they were encouraged up and promised jobs.

But sure time and a few on here know it was all the prods fault that they had to leave Roi. All this time the catholic population in ni was growing.

Spin it any way you like guys it hardly adds up

So where is your data downcow...show us.

Another wee story that confirms your bias is not really presenting data.

jm08 · 18-08-2020 6:52pm

downcow wrote: »

I have read some nonsense in my time but that letter from the Dubliner takes the biscuit.
I googled his address and appears to be the leafy suburbs of Dublin. That’s like asking a grammar school boy who has just qualified as a lawyer in his daddy’s business, what is wrong with grammar schools?
My fathers family of 11 all left Roi and would all site discrimination and cold house as their reasons. My father got a job in Belfast on his arrival and was chucked out that afternoon because he didn’t have the right permit. He had to go to Manchester to get a job, so so much for Toms argument that they were encouraged up and promised jobs.

But sure time and a few on here know it was all the prods fault that they had to leave Roi. All this time the catholic population in ni was growing.

Spin it any way you like guys it hardly adds up

Big house protestants were encouraged north . Lets not pretend that big house unionism's biggest fear was that the catholic and protestant working class would get together and take on the wealthy middle classes. Big House Unionism promoted sectarianism in the working classes to cause division.

Did your father's family have a job in the ROI? Was he chucked out of it like he was chucked out of the one in Belfast. Does your family hold any resentment towards NI that he was chucked out of his job and then had to go to Manchester to work.

Templeogue is a nice area (relatively new middle class estates). I think he was quoting what Prof. John Regan of Dundee University had to say about this supposed 'enthnic cleaning' which I quote below (from Irish Times).

.... “The . . . Protestant malaise in the nascent Irish Free State”, Prof Fitzpatrick says, “was not excess migration but failure to enroll new members, presumably as a consequence of already low fertility and nuptiality, exacerbated by losses through mixed marriages and [religious] conversions”. Prof Fitzpatrick’s reinterpretation rests on a sophisticated analysis of census and other data.
However, common to both interpretations is the laboured suggestion that southern Irish Protestants might have experienced, despite the lack of evidence, ethnic cleansing. For Prof Townshend, this is because some historians have “suggested” as much. In 1996, the late Prof Peter Hart used the term “ethnic cleansing” to describe the experience of southern Protestants, whereupon it was seized on by polemicists. Prof Hart was the only serious historian ever to apply the term to the 1920s, but he reversed his position in 2005.

Read the full account here:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/ethnic-cleansing-1.1931023

Shefwedfan · 18-08-2020 7:05pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have at it Shef. He was only repeating what many studies show.
Tell us and downcow how it was different to what he has synopsised it. Downcow believes that FF and FG in government oversaw ethnic cleansing of protestants.

Awaiting you contrary evidence.

Why would I need contrary evidence? you haven't provided any evidence yet.

I can share the Adrian Kennedy radio show. Would suit you down to the ground.

Shefwedfan · 18-08-2020 7:10pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So where is your data downcow...show us.

Another wee story that confirms your bias is not really presenting data.

What data have you provided?

Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

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