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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

We have been through this before about your ignorance of the figures for the 1973 referendum. Not only did a majority of those who voted reject independence, but the numbers constituted a majority of the electorate. That means that if every single person who abstained/was sick/couldn't be bothered/was away had voted for independence, then independence would still have been rejected.

Those are the bare facts, indisputable facts, yet you still deny them. Incredible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Northern_Ireland_border_poll

591,820 out of an electorate of 1,030,084 rejected independence.

Yes 'we have been through it' and what emerged is that that referendum is something of a threadworn Unionist and partitionist comfort blanket...with most Unionists ignoring it as a sign of anything, such a sham that it was.

Kaybaykwah

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Northern Ireland has no place in a modern Ireland.

Seeing as it is still a basket case, and for the foreseeable future, better let the UK carry the basket they wove.

CrankyHaus

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So what happened to them?

Well one was made the first President. A bunch of them were appointed to the Seanad to promote inclusiveness.

ancapailldorcha

TheBoyConor wrote: »

They are still there. They walk among us.

I'm from a Unionist Protestant family in the Republic. I'd say I count as part of the "they".

TheBoyConor

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Very little if anything in my experience.

They are still there. They walk among us.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When do they get to decide jh79?

Nationalists had their minds made up for them and have never been given a choice again in a free and democratic way. Unless you count the sham 1973 referendum.

We have been through this before about your ignorance of the figures for the 1973 referendum. Not only did a majority of those who voted reject independence, but the numbers constituted a majority of the electorate. That means that if every single person who abstained/was sick/couldn't be bothered/was away had voted for independence, then independence would still have been rejected.

Those are the bare facts, indisputable facts, yet you still deny them. Incredible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Northern_Ireland_border_poll

591,820 out of an electorate of 1,030,084 rejected independence.

onh81

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Well you seemed to have picked up very little

According to you the "Unionist" are to blame for everyting. Maybe its time to grow up.....

Hmm essentially a single party state that brought us such wonders like the Special Powers Act and Internment... but you’re right, Unionists aren’t to blame. Westminster let it happen.

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So what happened to them?

Maybe read their own testimonies Shef...they are out there

ancapailldorcha

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So what happened to them?

Very little if anything in my experience.

Shefwedfan

jm08 wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to suggest that protestants in the Republic were treated the same way as catholics in Northern Ireland?

So what happened to them?

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Well you seemed to have picked up very little

According to you the "Unionist" are to blame for everyting. Maybe its time to grow up.....

Maybe it's time you backed up something you say,

How about finding where I 'blamed Unionists for everything'.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do you think we should learn from history or ignore it and do the same thing again?

Well you seemed to have picked up very little

According to you the "Unionist" are to blame for everyting. Maybe its time to grow up.....

jm08

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Same can be said of the protestant people living in Rep of Ireland after 1922.

Don't see you mentioning anything about them? but then that doesn't suit your narrative does it?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that protestants in the Republic were treated the same way as catholics in Northern Ireland?

For example, proportional representation (imposed by Britain) was retained to ensure that the minority protestants were not excluded. The opposite happened in Northern Ireland. The Stormont Government changed it to First Past the Post to exclude catholics.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When do they get to decide jh79?

Nationalists had their minds made up for them and have never been given a choice again in a free and democratic way. Unless you count the sham 1973 referendum.

When the SoS decides the time is right as set out in the GFA.

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Same can be said of the protestant people living in Rep of Ireland after 1922.

Don't see you mentioning anything about them? but then that doesn't suit your narrative does it?

Do you think we should learn from history or ignore it and do the same thing again?

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When do they get to decide jh79?

Nationalists had their minds made up for them and have never been given a choice again in a free and democratic way. Unless you count the sham 1973 referendum.

Same can be said of the protestant people living in Rep of Ireland after 1922.

Don't see you mentioning anything about them? but then that doesn't suit your narrative does it?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

That's for the people for NI to decide.

When do they get to decide jh79?

Nationalists had their minds made up for them and have never been given a choice again in a free and democratic way. Unless you count the sham 1973 referendum.

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

Outdated concepts of nationality linked to territory are on the way out.

Your type of rhetoric has no future in a multicultural, inclusive society. Integration and acceptance of the British heritage on this island, distinct and separate, but part of us, is what is needed to move on.

How can you say this with a straight face.....when your proposal to solve the whole problem was..........

Wait for it!

The creation of a new nation state based on the Northern Irish nationality and territory.

You can see the problem here, right?

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How many centuries do you want to give it, before you accept it's a failure?

That's for the people for NI to decide.

Annd9

Northern Ireland wasn't set up to fail , it was set up to prevent civil war . The liberals gave in to the threat's from Carson as they could see their majority slip away and Bonar laws conservative's had the upper hand . Hence why Redmond was thrown under a bus .

The British government of the time Asquith, Churchill, Lloyd George couldn't have given two ****s about the north , this was all about keeping power . It was ment to be a temporary solution to keep the votes coming in but here we are 100 years later .....

As for the 6 counties being included in this new region , Carson wanted the 9 , Asquith suggested 3 so as happy medium we now have 6 .

I do have one question for unionists on this thread , do they think the British government (or people) really cares about the North ? If the answer is yes could they give some recent examples ? If no why cling on to people who show obvious contempt for the region ?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Nothing but that does not necessarily mean it will work. There is nothing to stop NI from being progressive, inclusive and having economic prosperity either as it is, if the people want it.

How many centuries do you want to give it, before you accept it's a failure?

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is outdated about a progressive vision of an island united as one entity in seeking economic prosperity, health security and a progressive inclusive society for all?

Nothing but that does not necessarily mean it will work. There is nothing to stop NI from being progressive, inclusive and having economic prosperity either as it is, if the people want it.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

Outdated concepts of nationality linked to territory are on the way out.

Your history of hilariously bad predictions continues.

Your type of rhetoric has no future in a multicultural, inclusive society.

My type of rhetoric is perfectly congruent with a multicultural, inclusive society.

Integration and acceptance of the British heritage on this island, distinct and separate, but part of us, is what is needed to move on.

For sure, but the pseudo-British aspects need to be contained in the north east of Ireland because, I'm sure you'll agree, anachronistic organisations like the Orange Order that expel members for marrying a Catholic, but not murdering one, have no place in a multicultural, inclusive society.

Take your time untangling yourself from that spaghetti of knots you've tied yourself up in and the next time you quote me try answering the points rather than ones you've imagined.

[Deleted User]

Bambi wrote: »

An island without partition, where the North is no longer stuck in a sectarian rut? Don't be scaring people

How would a united Ireland cure sectarianism?

Dyr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We in the south have shown how to accept our British heritage. The insistence of otherness is coming from a minority under self imposed siege.

What is outdated about a progressive vision of an island united as one entity in seeking economic prosperity, health security and a progressive inclusive society for all?

An island without partition, where the North is no longer stuck in a sectarian rut? Don't be scaring people

[Deleted User]

Something you do not hear much discussion on.

There is very little respect or interest in the religious orders in the Republic of Ireland, there is a big push to get religious orders out of education and a push for non-domination inclusive education here. That is not the position in NI

Culturally catholicism has developed differently in NI so I suspect if a united Ireland ever came about a lot of NI Catholics would feel as alienated as there unionist brethren.

downcow

maccored wrote: »

'Northern Ireland' was designed to fail unless it was propped up by the british government. it shouldnt exist basically.

That’s is the only way a united island has ever existed in our history ie when propped up bey the brits

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Outdated concepts of nationality linked to territory are on the way out.

Your type of rhetoric has no future in a multicultural, inclusive society. Integration and acceptance of the British heritage on this island, distinct and separate, but part of us, is what is needed to move on.

We in the south have shown how to accept our British heritage. The insistence of otherness is coming from a minority under self imposed siege.

What is outdated about a progressive vision of an island united as one entity in seeking economic prosperity, health security and a progressive inclusive society for all?

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Forget it. This state is founded on a 32 county Ireland, governed by the people of Ireland, with the British state out, and you'll never be able to wish that away.

Outdated concepts of nationality linked to territory are on the way out.

Your type of rhetoric has no future in a multicultural, inclusive society. Integration and acceptance of the British heritage on this island, distinct and separate, but part of us, is what is needed to move on.

Dyr

FTA69 wrote: »

Northern Ireland will limp on as long as the UK exists but if Scotland ever quits then it’s game over for Irish unionism; the British interest in Ireland is largely predicated on maintaining the wider union. If that’s no longer viable you’ll see a long term strategy for unity put in place by the British themselves I’d say.

TBH its just as likely that the English will start looking for independance from the rest of em in medium term.