Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Odhinn · 30-10-2019 7:36pm

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

If babies are not needed only sex is necessary what is need to produce them.

In plain english,what does that mean?

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

There may be corruption in church but there are also good people in churches. People take corruption of one man and then say the whole church is corrupt. That is not good.

The majority of the church covered for the molesters amongst them. Hence the "whole church" being viewed as corrupt.

Esel · 30-10-2019 11:48pm

DNFTT

A_Lost_Man · 31-10-2019 2:06am

axer wrote: »

You have no idea what you are talking about. There are a number of issues involved here - not just putting marking the grave:
1. Human trafficking of babies - we know the nuns were involved in human trafficking of babies and we also know birth and death certs were falsified. Is there ~800 baby bodies in the cesspit or just a percentage of that? If only a percentage - where are the rest? Were they trafficked? Are some still alive?
2. Illegal burials - we know the Tuam burial site is an illegal burial place.
3. Covert burials which beg the question what was being hidden? Abuse? Neglect?
4. People have family suspected as having being dumped in the cesspit(s) - would you like to be buried in a sewage tank or your family members?
5. For relatives of the babies who are Catholic, the Tuam cesspit is not consecrated ground. We know for a fact that at least some of those babies suspected of being dumped there were baptised - why are you not furious that this happened? Are baptised babies not entitled to a proper christian burial in consecrated ground?
6. Family members have a legal right under EU law to know the fate of missing relatives.
These are just some of the issues that need to be resolved.

1 there are no confirm sources which say 800 bodies were present at site and these bodies could be buried during times of great famine
2 illegal burial. People eat other people when they are hungry . They become just pack of wild dogs when their hunger is not fullfilled. And you are worried about some remains of some dead children during famine i dont care the dead. Even dead in grave or pit. Their bodies will be food of worms in golden tombs and golden coffens or tanks
3 We should care more for the living your Irish goverment under the pressure is wasting dollars to dig old graves for nothing with the same money they save and built home for today for unmarried mothers and children. Where this investigation lead. What will be the result. Is your goverment going to ban all nuns and church.
4 there may be chance these children were sent to clergy on payment to america with the willing of their unmarried mothers because your society at that time under the church does not accept a child from unmarried mother.

pauldla · 31-10-2019 2:24am

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

1 there are no confirm sources which say 800 bodies were present at site and these bodies could be buried during times of great famine
2 illegal burial. People eat other people when they are hungry . They become just pack of wild dogs when their hunger is not fullfilled. And you are worried about some remains of some dead children during famine i dont care the dead. Even dead in grave or pit. Their bodies will be food of worms in golden tombs and golden coffens or tanks
3 We should care more for the living your Irish goverment under the pressure is wasting dollars to dig old graves for nothing with the same money they save and built home for today for unmarried mothers and children. Where this investigation lead. What will be the result. Is your goverment going to ban all nuns and church.
4 there may be chance these children were sent to clergy on payment to america with the willing of their unmarried mothers because your society at that time under the church does not accept a child from unmarried mother.

After reading these comments I too feel lost.

Cabaal · 31-10-2019 9:12am

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

1 there are no confirm sources which say 800 bodies were present at site and these bodies could be buried during times of great famine

They are not, nothing support your offensive fairytale belief

2 illegal burial. People eat other people when they are hungry . They become just pack of wild dogs when their hunger is not fullfilled. And you are worried about some remains of some dead children during famine i dont care the dead. Even dead in grave or pit. Their bodies will be food of worms in golden tombs and golden coffens or tanks

More nonsense, based on nothing but your own imagination

3 We should care more for the living your Irish goverment under the pressure is wasting dollars to dig old graves for nothing with the same money they save and built home for today for unmarried mothers and children. Where this investigation lead. What will be the result. Is your goverment going to ban all nuns and church.

Again, you are looking to re-bury the past, pathetic

Your sort of posts are actually massively offensive,
Its paramount to holocaust denial

Shame on you, you should hang your head in shame

axer · 31-10-2019 10:56am

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

1 there are no confirm sources which say 800 bodies were present at site and these bodies could be buried during times of great famine
2 illegal burial. People eat other people when they are hungry . They become just pack of wild dogs when their hunger is not fullfilled. And you are worried about some remains of some dead children during famine i dont care the dead. Even dead in grave or pit. Their bodies will be food of worms in golden tombs and golden coffens or tanks
3 We should care more for the living your Irish goverment under the pressure is wasting dollars to dig old graves for nothing with the same money they save and built home for today for unmarried mothers and children. Where this investigation lead. What will be the result. Is your goverment going to ban all nuns and church.
4 there may be chance these children were sent to clergy on payment to america with the willing of their unmarried mothers because your society at that time under the church does not accept a child from unmarried mother.

I can see now why you are so clueless being over in the US - you are well behind on the proven information that has come out in the last year or two. You are probably basing your information on someone like John Waters who has been proven to be 100% wrong.

1. You need to read the reports from the Commission of Investigation who performed a test excavation and confirmed without doubt that the bones that are there are not from the famine but point to the period when the mother and baby home was operating at the site.
2. The site is an illegal burial site - bodies were never authorised to be dumped there. You might not care about the law since you are not in Ireland but we do.
3. Your church has never cared for the living. Thankfully we hold our government to a higher accountability than members of the Catholic church have. Again, why are you not furious that baptised babies were buried in ground that was not consecrated?
4. What you are saying here is the church may have been involved in human trafficking. We KNOW the church was involved in human trafficking. Selling babies was illegal when it took place back then and is still illegal. Not only that but the Nuns in Tuam were PAID a lot of money to not only look after the babies but also they were PAID to bury them correctly. Instead they pocketed the money, built a multi billion private healthcare company on the backs of dead and trafficked babies. How does this, as a christian, not infuriated you? Surely Jesus wouldn't approve of this.

robindch · 31-10-2019 1:27pm

Donal O'Keeffe, who's researching the mother and baby home nationwide, attended a talk in Tuam last Saturday evening by one Brian Nugent who's written a lengthy book which, in essence, denies that anything very notable took place at the Tuam home.

Unfortunately for Mr Nugent, Catherine Corless was also present at the talk and both Ms Corless and Mr O'Keeffe took significant issue with Nugent's evidence, reasoning and conclusions:

https://avondhupress.ie/challenging-those-who-deny-the-tuam-babies/

What seems to be the full talk is available here for anybody who has two hours to spare.

PostWoke · 31-10-2019 1:29pm

Spring Onion wrote: »

And most parents in Ireland still think it should force their children to join this organisation...

'Most'? Uh, maybe a few decades ago...

robindch · 31-10-2019 1:29pm

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

3 We should care more for the living your Irish goverment under the pressure is wasting dollars to dig old graves for nothing

Hardly worth pointing out that here in Ireland, we don't use US dollars, but a currency called the Euro instead:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro

Hotblack Desiato · 31-10-2019 3:08pm

PostWoke wrote: »

'Most'? Uh, maybe a few decades ago...

The majority of kids still do first communion and for almost all of them the preparation takes place in their school.

downinbigsmoke · 31-10-2019 7:47pm

robindch wrote: »

Donal O'Keeffe, who's researching the mother and baby home nationwide, attended a talk in Tuam last Saturday evening by one Brian Nugent who's written which, in essence, denies that anything very notable took place at the Tuam home.

Unfortunately for Mr Nugent, Catherine Corless was also present at the talk and both Ms Corless and Mr O'Keeffe took significant issue with Nugent's evidence, reasoning and conclusions:

What seems to be the full talk is available for anybody who has two hours to spare.

I wasn't there but I watched the (controversial bits) of the video. I'm not sure if I believe Mr Nugent. At the same time I don't think Ms Corless and Mr O'Keeffe aquitted themselves very well. Certainly the tale related in the linked avondhupress article is not a fair description of what happened.

There were a number of factually false statements made by the (counter-?)protesters that go uncorrected in the article.

There also seemed to be a fair few racist old folk in the audience but I guess that's the price of giving a talk in Connaught!

PostWoke · 31-10-2019 7:55pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The majority of kids still do first communion and for almost all of them the preparation takes place in their school.

And how is that the parents' will?

That example is 100% an issue with church and state (and education), it's got nothing to do with parents wishes.

Unless you're talking about being a ****ty parent and excluding your child from a payday?

You honestly think 100% of parents who have a child do their communion exercise some kind of faith?

Give over, I doubt it's even 10%. Communions and Confirmations are mutual agreement of sorts; church still gets to feel relevant, kids get a Nintendo Switch. That's it.

robindch · 31-10-2019 8:27pm

downinbigsmoke wrote: »

[...] I watched the (controversial bits) of the video [...]

For the benefit of other forum members, any chance you could say where these bits are?

Most forum members are interested in this topic, but I'm not sure that very many are at a sufficiently loose end that they could spare two hours poking through the entrails of Mr Nugent's thinking on the topic.

ShamNNspace · 31-10-2019 11:56pm

Listened to it all. Someone coughing all through the talk kind of off-putting however Nugent set out his stall fairly well. I'm from here so I remember the building going on in the late 70s early 80s there are still people alive who worked on that job. Gcc hold a lot of the answers to what happened here it's actually astounding that their records haven't been forensically examined at this stage

Hotblack Desiato · 01-11-2019 2:16am

PostWoke wrote: »

And how is that the parents' will?

Even in a catholic school, it's 100% the parents' decision whether their kids do communion and confirmation, or not.

Unless you're talking about being a ****ty parent and excluding your child from a payday?

Ah right, so it's go with the flow and be labelled weak, stand up for what you believe in and be labelled a "****ty parent" ?

Are you saying I'm a "****ty parent" ?

You honestly think 100% of parents who have a child do their communion exercise some kind of faith?

The post I replied to (and the thread's OP which you replied to) didn't say anything about faith. I think you need to read posts much more closely tbh.

Mark Hamill · 01-11-2019 10:29am

Odhinn wrote: »

And in english this means.............?

I think.. I think he is quoting Kung Fu panda:

downinbigsmoke · 01-11-2019 11:40am

robindch wrote: »

For the benefit of other forum members, any chance you could say where these bits are?

Most forum members are interested in this topic, but I'm not sure that very many are at a sufficiently loose end that they could spare two hours poking through the entrails of Mr Nugent's thinking on the topic.

The shouting tends to start whenever there's just a white screen with someone's name. Catherine Corless starts speaking at 1hr7min in. That's when all hell breaks loose.

Hotblack Desiato · 01-11-2019 1:21pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I think.. I think he is quoting Kung Fu panda:

A_Lost_Man · 02-11-2019 9:25am

aloyisious wrote: »

If you don't keep the past in mind, you end up repeating it. There are reasons to keep the dead in memory and that includes shining a light for your steps in the future. Graves serve a purpose.

Graves serve no purpose. They contain only useless dust of the dead under golden tomb. Actually they occupy the space of living. They serve a purpose only for religious. Religious use to bury the dead with honor thinking that they will rise again on the day of judgement and waste million of dollar / euros on the dead to keep them alive. The money they are wasting on the dead with same money they can buy food for the poor. Actually graves, shrine are the reason organised religions are still breathing. Just think out of well and if Europe or ireland is rich doesnot mean other human living in africa are not dying with hunger.

There are grave yards for rich and grave yard for poor. In rich graveyard poor cannt be buried because they are poor. I like the hindu / viking way of burning bodies and send their ashes to rivers. We are the ashen one and dust of star.

Graves are old fashion / science of disposing the dead. Because they our ancestors dont know how to deal with the dead and its smell . So they devise a plan to insult the dead by burying it under six feet mud and claim that the dead is in the heaven. Infact body of dead is being eaten by insect. Actually graves doesnot show an honor to dead body infact it is an insult. A person who lived with you, eaten with you love by you on his death you send him six feet under-mud. Is this you keep the dead living in your memory. Better use science and new way for disposal of dead.

A_Lost_Man · 02-11-2019 9:31am

Odhinn wrote: »

The majority of the church covered for the molesters amongst them. Hence the "whole church" being viewed as corrupt.

Again there are good people and bad people in an organization. If organization is run by corrupt people will ultimately become corrupt. It the fault of people not the organization. There are people in churches who love to help the poor. I like that way irrespective of their faith. We should appreciate their good work. Many atheist due to their hate of religion forget good things of church and point out weakness.

smacl · 02-11-2019 3:05pm

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

aloyisious wrote: »

If you don't keep the past in mind, you end up repeating it. There are reasons to keep the dead in memory and that includes shining a light for your steps in the future. Graves serve a purpose.

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

Graves serve no purpose.

I think you'll find Aloyisious' post was clearly a reference remembering the dead, and the atrocious way they met their deaths in this case, through taught history. While Viking and Hindu burial rites are no doubt an interesting topic, they are a total red herring with respect to this discussion. Septic tanks on the other hand....

smacl · 02-11-2019 3:09pm

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

Again there are good people and bad people in an organization. If organization is run by corrupt people will ultimately become corrupt. It the fault of people not the organization. There are people in churches who love to help the poor. I like that way irrespective of their faith. We should appreciate their good work. Many atheist due to their hate of religion forget good things of church and point out weakness.

That there are also good people in the church is not in dispute, there are good and bad people in every large organisation. However, if an organisation knowingly protects and covers up serious criminal activity on the part of some of its members then that organisation is clearly both corrupt and complicit in the crime.

Odhinn · 02-11-2019 3:46pm

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

Again there are good people and bad people in an organization. If organization is run by corrupt people will ultimately become corrupt. It the fault of people not the organization. There are people in churches who love to help the poor. I like that way irrespective of their faith. We should appreciate their good work. Many atheist due to their hate of religion forget good things of church and point out weakness.

But if its an organisation that put its own internal workings and ethos above that of the state and common morality, its most certainly the organisations fault, which is what happened.

A_Lost_Man · 04-11-2019 10:12am

smacl wrote: »

That there are also good people in the church is not in dispute, there are good and bad people in every large organisation. However, if an organisation knowingly protects and covers up serious criminal activity on the part of some of its members then that organisation is clearly both corrupt and complicit in the crime.

That's every organisation do to save its reputation when it finds something wrongs. What is meaning of serious criminal activities like fckng children . That also happens in private organization, harassing of females and children. They also try to cover up. It is not the fault of church but few bad people. The story of burying 800 children in tank. There are no cofirm sources about that.

Ok let says church is corrupt what is alternative. what will do your next. demolish or ban churches. What will people do when they will not find a place to worship Jesus. Will you provide them another god. Are you going to make whole world atheist.

smacl · 04-11-2019 10:52am

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

That's every organisation do to save its reputation when it finds something wrongs. What is meaning of serious criminal activities like fckng children . That also happens in private organization, harassing of females and children. They also try to cover up. It is not the fault of church but few bad people. The story of burying 800 children in tank. There are no cofirm sources about that.

It is the fault of the church because they worked strenuously to cover up these crimes including moving abusive priests from one parish to the next so they could repeat their crimes. This is a worldwide phenomenon and an endemic problem with the Catholic and other large churches.

Ok let says church is corrupt what is alternative. what will do your next. demolish or ban churches. What will people do when they will not find a place to worship Jesus. Will you provide them another god. Are you going to make whole world atheist.

What is being done is that the church is being made to make reparations for its crimes. This doesn't involve demolishing churches nor denying anyone their faith. It is about acknowledging their misdeeds, apologising to the victims including financial reparation where appropriate and having those directly involved face criminal charges.

One of the main reasons that people are abandoning the church in droves is the church's refusal to properly and reasonably engage in the above and their resultant loss of trust by the public at large. For example, as a function of the total number of abuse cases that involve the clergy, how many of them have been brought to the attention of the judiciary by the church unprompted?

Cabaal · 04-11-2019 12:28pm

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

That's every organisation do to save its reputation when it finds something wrongs.

The church is very much an exception due to the sheer amount of systematic , worldwide, organized cover ups of sexual abuse and rape of children, along with the selling of babies for profit and the mistreatment of women.

Oh they also have repeatedly made it difficult for investigations to occur, have have refused to release records to a UN investigation and still owe many hundreds of millions in compensation to abuse victims.

Name one organization who has covered up the same crimes on this level?

A_Lost_Man · 04-11-2019 12:49pm

Cabaal wrote: »

The church is very much an exception due to the sheer amount of systematic , worldwide, organized cover ups of sexual abuse and rape of children, along with the selling of babies for profit and the mistreatment of women.

Oh they also have repeatedly made it difficult for investigations to occur, have have refused to release records to a UN investigation and still owe many hundreds of millions in compensation to abuse victims.

Name one organization who has covered up the same crimes on this level?

UN Always try to cover up its peacekeeper SEX ABUSE in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Cases of sexual abuse committed by UN Peacekeepers in Bosnia in the 90s and You are asking same UN to investigate crimes by Church an irony

The high horse brigade · 04-11-2019 1:21pm

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

UN Always try to cover up its peacekeeper SEX ABUSE in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Cases of sexual abuse committed by UN Peacekeepers in Bosnia in the 90s and You are asking same UN to investigate crimes by Church an irony

Whataboutery

Cabaal · 04-11-2019 1:25pm

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

UN Always try to cover up its peacekeeper SEX ABUSE in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Cases of sexual abuse committed by UN Peacekeepers in Bosnia in the 90s and You are asking same UN to investigate crimes by Church an irony

Cover-up? Hmm, not really, the abuses were known but the issues were more inaction then anything. These are issues certainly and need to be addressed but hardly a cover-up like the church.
The UN isn't like a world government, countrys can and do choose not ignore UN recommendations on an issue.....the Vatican for example has refused to co-operate with UN investigations. Actions against military personnel can vary country to country depending on their own rules.

Your example is flawed, in the case of the catholic church the abuses were very well known and the church had specific rules to cover it up, silence the victims and they enabled the abusers to abuse more,.

Are you proposing the UN has such rules?
Got anything to back up your claims?

aloyisious · 04-11-2019 3:01pm

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

That's every organisation do to save its reputation when it finds something wrongs. What is meaning of serious criminal activities like fckng children . That also happens in private organization, harassing of females and children. They also try to cover up. It is not the fault of church but few bad people. The story of burying 800 children in tank. There are no cofirm sources about that.

Ok let says church is corrupt what is alternative. what will do your next. demolish or ban churches. What will people do when they will not find a place to worship Jesus. Will you provide them another god. Are you going to make whole world atheist.

Re the sources, are you saying there were no child or baby skeleton remains at all in the tank? Are you saying that the church said there were no child or baby skeleton remains found in the tank? You said you don't agree with burials so the burials there, following your train of thought, would be a corrupt act by the nuns.

Re the future of the corrupt church and worship of Christ, the answer is there in the bible for you, go into the church [temple-place] as Jesus did and throw out the corrupt people. Do that and you'll have no need to worry about having a place to pray. Its the people inside you need to worry about, not the building or banning.

robindch · 12-10-2020 2:10pm

European Commission to investigate mother and baby homes

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40062500.html

Irish Examiner wrote:

The European Commission is to investigate allegations about the Irish State’s treatment of women in mother and baby homes. It is also to investigate allegations about the way the State has treated survivors of those homes.

Earlier this year, the Coalition of Mother and Baby Homes Survivors in Ireland petitioned the commission for an investigation. It called for an investigation into “breaches of human rights” that occurred in the homes and for an examination of “the wider official system” that “facilitated” forced adoptions of children from those homes.

On Thursday, the commission told the coalition their petition for an investigation has been “declared admissible”. The European Commission has now been asked to conduct a preliminary investigation of the issues raised. It has also been referred to the European Parliament Coordinator on Children's Rights.

Paul Jude Redmond, of the Coalition of Mother and Baby Homes Survivors in Ireland, said: "We are delighted the European Parliament has decided to recognise our appalling treatment at the hands of successive Irish Governments." Clodagh Malone, a survivor of St Patrick's Mother and Baby Home, said: "We may think we're finished with Ireland's past but the past is not finished with us.”

Up to 7,000 babies and children are believed to have died in mother and baby homes. Their bodies have lain for decades in what were mostly unmarked graves on abandoned wasteland adjoining graveyards. Among the various homes in Ireland at one point were those run by the Sisters of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary who arrived in Ireland in 1922.

As well as Castlepollard in Co Westmeath, the congregation ran two other mother and baby homes, one of which — the Bessborough Centre in Cork — was open from 1922 until 1996. Sean Ross Abbey, another home in Roscrea, Co Tipperary, was where Philomena Lee's son was forcibly given up for adoption — something that became the subject of 2013’s Oscar-nominated film starring Judi Dench.

A common cause of baby deaths was marasmus — a severe form of malnutrition, commonly found in babies born in famine-hit countries. An estimated 4,800 children were born in Sean Ross Abbey and at least 700 of them are believed to have died between 1930 and 1950. No figures are available for those who died subsequently but researchers estimate around a total 1,200 died by the time the facility closed in 1969. Some 3,763 babies were born in Castlepollard over its 35 years from 1935 to 1971. Of these, 2,500 were allegedly adopted out and an estimated 200-300 died.

eire4 · 12-10-2020 6:31pm

robindch wrote: »

European Commission to investigate mother and baby homes

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40062500.html

An utter disgrace that it takes the EU to make this happen. The Irish government once again an utter disgrace when it comes to the victims of abuse by the church.
Absolutely unconscionable how badly they have and are been treated by our government who clearly just want to keep dragging this out in the hopes as many of the victims as possible die and they have as little as possible to deal with. Utterly disgusting.

Cabaal · 16-10-2020 11:46am

eire4 wrote: »

An utter disgrace that it takes the EU to make this happen. The Irish government once again an utter disgrace when it comes to the victims of abuse by the church.
Absolutely unconscionable how badly they have and are been treated by our government who clearly just want to keep dragging this out in the hopes as many of the victims as possible die and they have as little as possible to deal with. Utterly disgusting.

This is typical for Ireland though,

So many things in Ireland would not have changed only for the EU forced the positive change, environmental laws are a prime example of this refusal to change

eire4 · 16-10-2020 5:13pm

Cabaal wrote: »

This is typical for Ireland though,

So many things in Ireland would not have changed only for the EU forced the positive change, environmental laws are a prime example of this refusal to change

Sadly your absolutely spot on, very good example too with environmental laws.

ozmo · 16-10-2020 5:18pm

eire4 wrote: »

Sadly your absolutely spot on, very good example too with environmental laws.

I approve of all the EU laws and protections they have given us

- except maybe that stupid EU Browser Cookie law - I'm so sick of clicking I do/don't accept on every page I visit.

Hotblack Desiato · 16-10-2020 6:54pm

Install NoScript and disable the cookielaw script

eire4 · 16-10-2020 8:52pm

ozmo wrote: »

I approve of all the EU laws and protections they have given us

- except maybe that stupid EU Browser Cookie law - I'm so sick of clicking I do/don't accept on every page I visit.

So funny and true and the same time with those cookie things. Totally agree with you on the EU protections for sure. Nothing is perfect but overall no doubt in my mind we are better for them.

Gael23 · 16-10-2020 9:22pm

The point I made quite some time ago.

Some of the women that gave birth to babies here in the 1940s and 50s May still be alive. These are now at an advanced age and many had difficult lives so let them live what’s left of their life without digging this up

Bannasidhe · 16-10-2020 9:57pm

Gael23 wrote: »

The point I made quite some time ago.

Some of the women that gave birth to babies here in the 1940s and 50s May still be alive. These are now at an advanced age and many had difficult lives so let them live what’s left of their life without digging this up

And what about the women who do support 'digging this up' ( an unfortunately tasteless choice of words)?
Should they forever be condemned to have the horror inflicted upon them by Church and State brushed under the carpet?
It is up to individual women to decide whether to participate or not- and that is as it should be.
But no-one has the right to impose silence on others, especially not on those who were rendered voiceless for so long.

eire4 · 16-10-2020 10:11pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And what about the women who do support 'digging this up' ( an unfortunately tasteless choice of words)?
Should they forever be condemned to have the horror inflicted upon by Church and State them brushed under the carpet?
It is up to individual women to decide whether to participate or not- and that is as it should be.
But no-one has the right to impose silence on others, especially not on those who were rendered voiceless for so long.

Could not agree more. If there are some who were victims of this church abuse who do not want to revisit that trauma at this late stage of their lives that is fine. But there must be justice and recompense for the victims who do want it. In addition beyond that all the horrors of and what was done must be brought to light and the church held to account so that this can never happen again.

Hotblack Desiato · 16-10-2020 11:00pm

Gael23 wrote: »

The point I made quite some time ago.

Some of the women that gave birth to babies here in the 1940s and 50s May still be alive. These are now at an advanced age and many had difficult lives so let them live what’s left of their life without digging this up

What about their children who have a right to be able to find out their true origins and meet their surviving biological family?

robindch · 27-10-2020 1:37pm

Anybody been following the twists and turns regarding the recently-enacted Mother and Baby Homes Records Bill? Seems the headline political reason for the bill is to hand over records to Tusla, but that certain aspects of that transfer require the records to remain sealed for 30 years which seems nuts.

TheJournal published an explainer here:

https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-records-5242858-Oct2020/

Meanwhile, Mary O'Rourke, lecturer in Lecturer in Human Rights at the Irish Centre for Human Rights (ICHR) in Galway, posted this which points to further similar, and more egregious, problems in other legislation regarding secrecy requirements for the men and women who worked at residential homes, those who survived them, and those who didn't:

https://twitter.com/RTEBrainstorm/status/1234405958773854209

TheChizler · 27-10-2020 4:29pm

robindch wrote: »

certain aspects of that transfer require the records to remain sealed for 30 years which seems nuts.

It's the uncertainty over what exactly is being sealed is the source of the outrage IMO. It's at least the confidential testimony from witnesses, which is fair enough and in theory they can make it public themselves if they want. There's a lot of ambiguity over whether any records are included in that or not. A lot of lazy journalism and opportunistic politicians fanning the flames as well.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-10-2020 8:27pm

It sure suits a lot of vested interests to keep records and testimony sealed away for as long as possible.

gozunda · 28-10-2020 8:37pm

TheChizler wrote: »

It's the uncertainty over what exactly is being sealed is the source of the outrage IMO. It's at least the confidential testimony from witnesses, which is fair enough and in theory they can make it public themselves if they want. There's a lot of ambiguity over whether any records are included in that or not. A lot of lazy journalism and opportunistic politicians fanning the flames as well.

Do we know if what was found in the investigation into the bodies of the children deposited into the setptic tank type structures in Tuam is also going to be locked away?

Hotblack Desiato · 03-03-2021 8:46pm

Programme tonight on RTE1 about illegal adoptions.

Who Am I: Ireland's Illegal Adoptions tonight at 9:35pm on RTÉ One

Eamonn De Valera Jr repeatedly arranged illegal adoptions

Éamon de Valera’s son facilitated illegal adoptions in 1960s

Dublin woman Susan Kiernan’s birth mother was charged £85 by the nuns for maintenance though she had already been adopted. The fee was £85, equivalent to €3,200 today, and when she did not pay, the Sisters of Charity pursued her, the programme reveals.

Two months after Susan’s birth, they threatened to send the child back to her mother. However, Susan had been adopted four days after her birth.

A year after Susan’s birth, her biological mother was still struggling to pay the nuns. They began phoning Arnotts, where she worked, pointing out that the balance due was £82-10s. In correspondence a nun said, “If you do not send, my collector will call to see you. She would prefer not to have to do this as it might be embarrassing for you and we want to safeguard your reputation. We have not failed you; you have failed us.”

The utter fúcking bítches :mad:

Odhinn · 03-03-2021 9:35pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Programme tonight on RTE1 about illegal adoptions.

Who Am I: Ireland's Illegal Adoptions tonight at 9:35pm on RTÉ One

Eamonn De Valera Jr repeatedly arranged illegal adoptions

Éamon de Valera’s son facilitated illegal adoptions in 1960s

The utter fúcking bítches :mad:

Like much of the church, utter vermin.

breezy1985 · 03-03-2021 10:32pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Programme tonight on RTE1 about illegal adoptions.

Who Am I: Ireland's Illegal Adoptions tonight at 9:35pm on RTÉ One

Eamonn De Valera Jr repeatedly arranged illegal adoptions

Éamon de Valera’s son facilitated illegal adoptions in 1960s

The utter fúcking bítches :mad:

Power and money its all they care about. They no more believe in God than you or I

Odhinn · 03-03-2021 11:35pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Power and money its all they care about. They no more believe in God than you or I

Theirs is a god of convenience.

aloyisious · 04-03-2021 7:40pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Power and money its all they care about. They no more believe in God than you or I

Getting payment from the adoptive parents as well, it seemed, while pressing the Govt for funding at the same time claiming the order was short of funds.

Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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