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Etiquette - Young Girls In Mens Changing Rooms.

2

Comments

  • #52
    delly
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭delly


    cantalach wrote: »
    I believe that the above fairly comprehensively summarises your view. In so doing, it has become very clear to me (and I suspect others too) that you have issues. I don't intend to debate the point with you any further as a result. Get some help.

    Jesus, whats so outlandish about his view that kids have a right to privacy in front of stangers. Speaking as a father I would find it 100% unacceptable to place my daughter in such an environment, and no, I'm not assuming everybody else is a peado.

    TBH I have no problem with nakedness, it can be quite an enriching feeling letting it all hang out, but when it comes to kids its a different ballgame.


  • #53
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    walshb wrote: »
    I have been in male changing rooms and have seen young girls walking around naked amongst many naked men. It is happening and I think this is wrong. And yes, a young boy walking around a male changing room naked amongst many naked men is wrong too. Children and adults need to be separated in this regard and need to have certain privacies. Adults are different, they have a choice of whether or NOT to be in this scenario. The children do not have a choice and are brought into this scenario.

    This is the point. Adults have choices as adults; children need choices made for them and any man who allows his young daughter to be openly naked in full view of others is wrong.

    "I think it is a bit worrying that you think it is wrong that if a young girl is naked in the presence of a naked man that somehow that means she is being abused or that it will trigger abuse or that it means the man will be thinking sexual thoughts of the innocent young naked girl. What is worrying is that someone's mind could automatically assume that."

    Your quote above, I never said this at all. I said that it is inappropriate. Where did I say she was or wasn't being abused? If you are going to debate, please don't misquote me!
    You say it is wrong but you do not say why it is wrong so I ask why is it wrong? What difference does it make to the children? Are they being abused or used in some way? I actually see a positive in that they are not ashamed of their bodies like the way most people in Ireland are brought up to be i.e. do not show any flesh for fear someone might see it. Someone think of the children!!

    Is it wrong for parents to be naked around their child? Should a father never be naked in front of their young daughter since adults and children should be seperated? Would it corrupt a child's mind to see an adult naked? Would it corrupt an adult's mind to see a child naked?
    walshb wrote: »
    What is wrong with the way the aqua centre do it. They have cubicles were young children can
    change with their parents with some privacy. Why can't this be the case, instead of
    having to go into a mens changing room and see young girls lumped in with many men all
    just going 'about their business'....
    Why do you use so much emotive language about it e.g. "young girls lumped in", "young innocent girls being paraded around a mens changing room naked amongst strange naked men"
    delly wrote: »
    Jesus, whats so outlandish about his view that kids have a right to privacy in front of stangers. Speaking as a father I would find it 100% unacceptable to place my daughter in such an environment, and no, I'm not assuming everybody else is a peado.
    Just wondering what exactly is your reasoning for this? What is wrong with the environment? Are you afraid of others seeing her body or her seeing so many naked men? Are you afraid it will corrupt her or afraid she will be embarressed? Not judging your decision, just understanding you reasoning.
    delly wrote: »
    TBH I have no problem with nakedness, it can be quite an enriching feeling letting it all hang out, but when it comes to kids its a different ballgame.
    Its not about it being an enriching feeling its about it not being such a big deal. Everybodies' body is pretty much the same so whats the big deal?


  • #54
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    axer wrote: »
    Why do you use so much emotive language about it e.g. "young girls lumped in", "young innocent girls being paraded around a mens changing room naked amongst strange naked men"

    Yup, he's taking somewhere for changing your togs and making it out like some sort of sordid sex dungeon.


  • #55
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cantalach wrote: »
    I believe that the above fairly comprehensively summarises your view. In so doing, it has become very clear to me (and I suspect others too) that you have issues. I don't intend to debate the point with you any further as a result. Get some help.

    I'm not the one who can't see a problem with young girls changing openly and in full view of men in showering areas.

    You are the one who needs the help!


  • #56
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    delly wrote: »
    Jesus, whats so outlandish about his view that kids have a right to privacy in front of stangers. Speaking as a father I would find it 100% unacceptable to place my daughter in such an environment, and no, I'm not assuming everybody else is a peado.

    TBH I have no problem with nakedness, it can be quite an enriching feeling letting it all hang out, but when it comes to kids its a different ballgame.

    Exactly my thoughts. I too am not assuming all men who are in these showers are paedos.
    I simply think that a mens changing area should be free from young girls. If that's weird, then so be it!
    If they can provide cubicles, that's OK, but provide them and give parents that choice.


  • #57
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    It's that you think they should be free from minors altogether that's a bit weird. It's not a sexual environment, no need to be imposing age restrictions.


  • #58
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Stark wrote: »
    It's that you think they should be free from minors altogether that's a bit weird. It's not a sexual environment, no need to be imposing age restrictions.

    Again, you are misquoting. Separated from minors at all times?. Does this include dinner time, bed time:rolleyes:....That's ridiculous.

    I just believe they should have the same rights as adults in regards to privacy whilst changing. That's it!
    The right to privacy!


  • #59
    delly
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭delly


    Mens changing rooms are for men/boys, womens are for women/girls. Based on the fact that most people here think its ok for young girls to be in a mens changing room, then why aren't fully grown women allowed in? You can PC bullshit all you like people, but we are different, and that difference is the reason we have separate changing rooms, toilets etc.

    And no, I don't think its going to corrupt my childs mind, but there are environments which are appropriate and ones that aren't and i believe making a separation between male and female is important or is this some wacked out 50's idea?


  • #60
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    walshb wrote: »
    Again, you are misquoting. Separated from minors at all times?. Does this include dinner time, bed time:rolleyes:....That's ridiculous.

    Where did you read "at all times"? Did you even read what you quoted. Anyway, I was referring to this quote by you:
    walshb wrote:
    And yes, a young boy walking around a male changing room naked amongst many naked men is wrong too. Children and adults need to be separated in this regard and need to have certain privacies.


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  • #61
    jaykay74
    Registered Users Posts: 6,586 ✭✭✭jaykay74


    This thread is strange. I think its all about common sense as a parent rather than the examples I've read here of roaming naked kids/parades etc.

    I don't think I'm strange to bring my 3 year old daughter into the men changings room (Its permitted up to 6 where I go). If the changing rooms were tiny or too busy/crowded maybe i wouldn't bother (for kids/other adults sake), every situation is different.

    I've never seen anyone stare at her and if they did they'd know all about it. She might see the odd naked bloke but she has seen her brother naked, me naked. She knows men have pee pees and girls don't. She is happy with that. Naked doesn't mean dirty.

    So wheres the problem :confused: Common sense FTW


  • #62
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    delly wrote: »
    Mens changing rooms are for men/boys, womens are for women/girls. Based on the fact that most people here think its ok for young girls to be in a mens changing room, then why aren't fully grown women allowed in?
    Because they can change themselves, and don't require supervision.

    Taught that was straight forward?


  • #63
    delly
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭delly


    Zulu wrote: »
    Because they can change themselves, and don't require supervision.

    Taught that was straight forward?
    My point was that people are chomping at the bit to say its ok for naked kids to be in front of naked adults of the opposite sex. So why isn't it ok for adults to mix? Its nothing to do with being able to dress yourself, why are men and women separated?


  • #64
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    jaykay74 wrote: »
    Naked doesn't mean dirty.
    Exactly. That attitude of nakedness being something dirty is unfortunately very prevalent in Ireland. I cannot understand how someone could think that an adult seeing a naked young girl or a young girl seeing a naked man is something disgusting or wrong but I guess that is how some people are brought up to believe.
    delly wrote: »
    And no, I don't think its going to corrupt my childs mind, but there are environments which are appropriate and ones that aren't and i believe making a separation between male and female is important or is this some wacked out 50's idea?
    What is wrong with the environment?


  • #65
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    delly wrote: »
    My point was that people are chomping at the bit to say its ok for naked kids to be in front of naked adults of the opposite sex. So why isn't it ok for adults to mix? Its nothing to do with being able to dress yourself, why are men and women separated?
    I actually don't see it as a problem. I go to a spa here in Germany in the local swimming pool. The changing rooms are mixed and you don't wear clothes in the sauna (it is actually disgusting wearing swimming togs in saunas).

    I never have a problem with it and neither does anyone else there since we don't believe nakedness is dirty (nor is it automatically sexual) but this is a seperate debate to that of kids which is what this thread is about. I am not saying that they should not be seperate though since that would be a major leap in Ireland (too much for some).

    The kids would not have an issue - they wouldn't care less who is naked around them so I fail to see how it would effect them negatively in life? In fact it would show them that everyone is pretty much the same and nakedness is not shameful although the years of influence that follow will most likely corrupt them.


  • #66
    jaykay74
    Registered Users Posts: 6,586 ✭✭✭jaykay74


    delly wrote: »
    My point was that people are chomping at the bit to say its ok for naked kids to be in front of naked adults of the opposite sex. So why isn't it ok for adults to mix? Its nothing to do with being able to dress yourself, why are men and women separated?

    Is it not obvious that irish people are generally prudish so the rules are set accordingly by pools/gyms etc. Thats not a criticism just fact, I'm more prudish than a lot of my swedish friends. Been to Sweden loads of time, nobody cares if you are naked or not in the mixed changing rooms. nobody stares as it is rude but nobody is embarrassed either.


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  • #67
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    delly wrote: »
    My point was that people are chomping at the bit to say its ok for naked kids to be in front of naked adults of the opposite sex. So why isn't it ok for adults to mix? Its nothing to do with being able to dress yourself, why are men and women separated?

    It's just a cultural thing, no particular reasons. In many countries in Europe, they're fine with men and women being naked together.


  • #68
    liamo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭liamo


    I imagine that most people don't have a problem with male children being in the same room as other males.

    If that room happens to be a changing room then it's very likely that people in that room will be in various states of undress.

    If you're uncomfortable in that environment then don't go there.
    If you're uncomfortable bringing your son (or very young daughter) into that environment then don't.

    I am as comfortable in the changing room with a pensioner as I am with a 2 year old regardless of our respective states of dress or undress. Others in my gym appear to be as comfortable as me. Again - this is a changing room and nudity is to be expect at some point.

    If a father brings his very young daughter into the changing room (as happens from time to time in my gym) that's ok. However, Any older than 6 and I believe that it's time for the mother (or other female guardian) to accompany the child into the female changing room. I would begin to feel uncomfortable above that age and my discomfort would increase with the age of the child.

    Also, I believe it is completely unacceptable for a mother to accompany her son into the changing room. It's a men's changing room and it should be as off-limits to women as the female changing room is to men.

    This is not a male-only thing. A female friend recently reported to me instances of mothers bringing their pre-teen sons into the female changing room. This made my friend extremely uncomfortable and I understand her discomfort.

    This is most definitely a cultural thing. I am uncomfortable with nudity in the company of adult members of the opposite sex and I believe my attitude is relatively representative. I don't have an issue with my discomfort nor do I have a problem with someone who doesn't share my discomfort. The trick is to be aware of the sensitivies of others and to (within reason) take it into consideration.

    This subject is not rocket science nor does it merit the flames that have been generated in this thread.
    Yes, people will have different opinions about this subject but I believe most people's opinions on the subject will have more similarities than differences.

    At the end of the day, it's about applying common sense and having some consideration for others around you.


  • #69
    delly
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭delly


    Some very good points Liamo.


  • #70
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Delly nailed it when he said 'you can PC bull**** all you like'

    You can dress it up anyway you like and use all these naturist examples etc etc; but it doesn't get away from the fact that open nakedness among adults is one thing and nakedness among adults mixed with children is another. Anyone saying that there's no distinction or difference is IMO off the wall.

    I have ZERO problem with children being allowed into either dressing room at any age. My problem is that these places are not providing the necessary facilities for parents to allow them the choice and right to change their children in privacy. That's all!

    The Aqua centre is perfect and proper. But this lark of anything goes and any child can simply wander around a mens or womens (but particularly mens) changing room naked amongst dozens of adults is obscene; and this is exactly what I have seen, children walking around mens changing rooms unsupervised and free.


  • #71
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    walshb wrote: »
    You can dress it up anyway you like and use all these naturist examples etc etc; but it doesn't get away from the fact that open nakedness among adults is one thing and nakedness among adults mixed with children is another. Anyone saying that there's no distinction or difference is IMO off the wall.
    You seem to think that these kids need privacy which in fact it is the adults that have the problem. The kids could not care less since they have not yet been corrupted into that prudish mindset.

    What is this negative effect of child and adult naked in the same room? You have said it is not because of pedephilia, you have said you don't think it corrupts the childs mind - so what is it? I get the impression you just "think it is wrong" and that is it.
    walshb wrote: »
    I have ZERO problem with children being allowed into either dressing room at any age. My problem is that these places are not providing the necessary facilities for parents to allow them the choice and right to change their children in privacy. That's all!
    Your problem is more than that - your problem is that you think that it is completely wrong for adults and children to be naked in the same room. Who sounds more "off the wall"?
    walshb wrote: »
    The Aqua centre is perfect and proper. But this lark of anything goes and any child can simply wander around a mens or womens (but particularly mens) changing room naked amongst dozens of adults is obscene; and this is exactly what I have seen, children walking around mens changing rooms unsupervised and free.
    "Perfect and proper" - lol

    What is so "obscene" about it? Do they look disgusting? Are the "strange" naked men perverts? Is it totally unnatural? Are the men sexual predators instead of just swimmers getting changed? It sounds "off the wall" to jump to something sexual from just a person changing their clothes. Who does that say more about - the ones just getting changed and minding their own business or the ones that think it is "obscene" and should be stopped? "Oh god, someone think of the children" lol

    Unsupervised is a different story since it doesn't matter if the child is naked or not children should be supervised.


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  • #72
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    axer wrote: »
    You seem to think that these kids need privacy which in fact it is the adults that have the problem. The kids could not care less since they have not yet been corrupted into that prudish mindset.

    What is this negative effect of child and adult naked in the same room? You have said it is not because of pedephilia, you have said you don't think it corrupts the childs mind - so what is it? I get the impression you just "think it is wrong" and that is it.

    Your problem is more than that - your problem is that you think that it is completely wrong for adults and children to be naked in the same room. Who sounds more "off the wall"?

    "Perfect and proper" - lol

    What is so "obscene" about it? Do they look disgusting? Are the "strange" naked men perverts? Is it totally unnatural? Are the men sexual predators instead of just swimmers getting changed? It sounds "off the wall" to jump to something sexual from just a person changing their clothes. Who does that say more about - the ones just getting changed and minding their own business or the ones that think it is "obscene" and should be stopped? "Oh god, someone think of the children" lol

    Unsupervised is a different story since it doesn't matter if the child is naked or not children should be supervised.

    Ok, simple question. Do you see a difference between adults openly naked amongst each other and adults and children being openly naked amongst each other. It's a simple question. Is there a difference?

    And don't give me the obvious stupid answer that yes there is a difference, one scenario is adults and the other is children!


  • #73
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    walshb wrote: »
    Ok, simple question. Do you see a difference between adults openly naked amongst each other and adults and children being openly naked amongst each other. It's a simple question. Is there a difference?

    And don't give me the obvious stupid answer that yes there is a difference, one scenario is adults and the other is children!
    Naked is naked for both equally unless you bring in a sexual aspect to it. I would think the children would care less than adults (especially in Ireland). I don't know what difference you are looking for; a moral difference or what? Nakedness is a big deal for children only if you make a big deal for them.

    You didnt answer any of my questions in the last post or in this post. What exactly is "obscene" about children being naked in the same room as adults when changing to go into the swimming pool?


  • #74
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    axer wrote: »
    Naked is naked for both equally unless you bring in a sexual aspect to it. I would think the children would care less than adults (especially in Ireland). I don't know what difference you are looking for; a moral difference or what? Nakedness is a big deal for children only if you make a big deal for them.

    You didnt answer any of my questions in the last post or in this post. What exactly is "obscene" about children being naked in the same room as adults when changing to go into the swimming pool?
    So basically you do not see any difference. Ok, I see where you are coming from now. I'll leave it there:rolleyes:


  • #75
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    walshb wrote: »
    So basically you do not see any difference. Ok, I see where you are coming from now. I'll leave it there:rolleyes:
    intelligent argument. How about answering some of the questions I asked you or at least tell me the difference as you see it.


  • #76
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    axer wrote: »
    intelligent argument. How about answering some of the questions I asked you or at least tell me the difference as you see it.

    Well the difference is simple. One scenario is adults mixing openly with adults where both have a choice and can or cannot consent; and in all fairness, being naked amongst strangers is for some, not all that appealing, which I fully accept and respect. I personally am not too bothered, but I wouldn't be running around naked if you know what I mean:), a litlle discretion is all I ask for.

    Now, the whole aspect of young children being treated exactly the same way as adults in relation to nakedness and showering etc is IMO a different scenario, and one which needs certain discretion and privacy applied. I am not saying it is abominable. I just think it's wrong to say that both scenarios are pretty much the same. They are NOT!


  • #77
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    walshb wrote: »
    Well the difference is simple. One scenario is adults mixing openly with adults where both have a choice and can or cannot consent; and in all fairness, being naked amongst strangers is for some, not all that appealing, which I fully accept and respect. I personally am not too bothered, but I wouldn't be running around naked if you know what I mean:), a litlle discretion is all I ask for.
    What do they need to consent for? Do honestly believe the children care one bit about changing in front men that are also changing? You talk about children running around naked - that sounds more like children that are not bothered about being naked rather than children that are afraid or ashamed.

    We are not talking about everyone running around naked we are talking about people changing into swimming gear, having a shower and then changing back. We are not talking about sex or any sort of sexual activity which would be obscene.

    When it comes to children the parents make the decisions for them. If a father chooses to bring his young daughter into the mens changing rooms so that he can change her then he is doing so because he does not see a problem with it nor does he believe his child will have a problem with it.
    walshb wrote: »
    Now, the whole aspect of young children being treated exactly the same way as adults in relation to nakedness and showering etc is IMO a different scenario, and one which needs certain discretion and privacy applied. I am not saying it is abominable. I just think it's wrong to say that both scenarios are pretty much the same. They are NOT!
    What is treating children the same as adults - what needs to be treated differently? Children will only feel it is a big deal if adults make it seem like a big deal. Is it ok for parents to be in the same room naked with their children or is it wrong for every adult (including parents) and child to be naked in the same room together?

    How would it effect the children negatively? It seems to me that it is the adults that have the problem which is more a reflection on them than anyone else. What exactly is the problem that will be caused to a child from being naked in a room with the child's parent with some other naked people in the room (by naked I don't mean everyone just standing around being naked or running around naked)?


  • #78
    Gillo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Gillo


    I've brought my daughter in to changing rooms a number of time's it's a choice either I bring her in (don't make a fuss) get her changed and go for a swim or she doesn't get to go swimming. She six (sex in a few weeks) and know the difference between men and women. I wouldn't feel comfortable sending her off to the women's changing rooms by herself end off. It's a simple task take off clothes, put swimsuit on and do the reverse a hour later.

    I don't think it's off topic, but mod's feel free to correct me if necessary, what about public toilets? I brought her into town a while back and she needed to go to the toilet as we were in Jervis St I brought her into the gents, so old guy gave me awful abuse over bringing her in. I simply told him to go f*&k himself, my daughter asked what he said, I told her he said she was a great girl. The only other option I had was to let her wet herself.


  • #79
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Gillo wrote: »
    I've brought my daughter in to changing rooms a number of time's it's a choice either I bring her in (don't make a fuss) get her changed and go for a swim or she doesn't get to go swimming. She six (sex in a few weeks) and know the difference between men and women. I wouldn't feel comfortable sending her off to the women's changing rooms by herself end off. It's a simple task take off clothes, put swimsuit on and do the reverse a hour later.

    I don't think it's off topic, but mod's feel free to correct me if necessary, what about public toilets? I brought her into town a while back and she needed to go to the toilet as we were in Jervis St I brought her into the gents, so old guy gave me awful abuse over bringing her in. I simply told him to go f*&k himself, my daughter asked what he said, I told her he said she was a great girl. The only other option I had was to let her wet herself.
    Exactly - she is a child ffs. Like you said in the dressing room you are there to get her changed and out swimming not to parade her naked or any of the other crap mentioned earlier.

    You were right to tell that old c'unt to **** off. We were all children once.


  • #80
    Green Hornet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭Green Hornet


    It's a common problem alright. Facilities (be it toilets or changing rooms) should provide a cubicle or two to allow parents to help their children dress/undress or go to the toilet. It wouldn't cost very much.


  • #81
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Green Hornet wrote: »
    It's a common problem alright. Facilities (be it toilets or changing rooms) should provide a cubicle or two to allow parents to help their children dress/undress or go to the toilet. It wouldn't cost very much.

    That's all I ever said. There should be facilities provided for parents to change their children. In a lot of gyms these facilities are not provided.


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  • #82
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Tbh, it did annoy me when a guy brought his daughters into the men's changing rooms and showers in the NAC despite there being plenty of family changing cubicles available.


  • #83
    bridmwhite@gmai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭bridmwhite@gmai


    walshb wrote: »
    One scenario is adults mixing openly with adults where both have a choice and can or cannot consent

    Have you ever tried to get a six year old girl to go somewhere she didn't want to go. The resultent tantrum would show you the true meaning of consent.

    Talk about making a mountain out of nothing - you really need to examine your issues surrounding nudity. A few weeks in Northern Europe or Russia where being naked with friends, family and strangers alike while enjoying the sauna, banya, etc. might help alot with some of your issues.


  • #84
    Green Hornet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭Green Hornet


    bridmwhite@gmai wrote: »
    Have you ever tried to get a six year old girl to go somewhere she didn't want to go. The resultent tantrum would show you the true meaning of consent.

    Talk about making a mountain out of nothing - you really need to examine your issues surrounding nudity. A few weeks in Northern Europe or Russia where being naked with friends, family and strangers alike while enjoying the sauna, banya, etc. might help alot with some of your issues.
    I have no problem with nudity among adults. My issue pertains to young children, girls in particular, standing in the middle of a mens changing room with 20 naked men changing. And from the point of view of an adult I dont think I would be comfortable with my little daughter standing naked in a room full of men - 99.99% of who are well meaning but theres always the risk that a bad apple exists as well.

    I just think a family room should be provided.


  • #85
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Green Hornet wrote: »
    I have no problem with nudity among adults. My issue pertains to young children, girls in particular, standing in the middle of a mens changing room with 20 naked men changing. And from the point of view of an adult I dont think I would be comfortable with my little daughter standing naked in a room full of men - 99.99% of who are well meaning but theres always the risk that a bad apple exists as well.
    and what happens then? Is the child abused or harmed in any way? Is there any more risk of the child being harmed whilst changing with a parent in the Mens changing room than anywhere else? Will there be negative effects for a young girl seeing a man changing clothes?


  • #86
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    bridmwhite@gmai wrote: »
    Have you ever tried to get a six year old girl to go somewhere she didn't want to go. The resultent tantrum would show you the true meaning of consent.

    Talk about making a mountain out of nothing - you really need to examine your issues surrounding nudity. A few weeks in Northern Europe or Russia where being naked with friends, family and strangers alike while enjoying the sauna, banya, etc. might help alot with some of your issues.
    Have you ever tried to read one of my posts?

    I have no issue with adults mixing openly naked in mens changing rooms!

    Maybe if you read slowly and carefully you would understand this:rolleyes:


  • #87
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    walshb wrote: »
    Have you ever tried to read one of my posts?

    I have no issue with adults mixing openly naked in mens changing rooms!

    Maybe if you read slowly and carefully you would understand this:rolleyes:
    So how are young girls (or boys) negatively effected by changing in the mens changing room? Do you forsee psychological problems? Social Problems? Behaviour problems? or is it "just wrong"?


  • #88
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    axer wrote: »
    So how are young girls (or boys) negatively effected by changing in the mens changing room? Do you forsee psychological problems? Social Problems? Behaviour problems? or is it "just wrong"?

    Read green hornets post above!


  • #89
    topper75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    bridmwhite@gmai wrote: »
    A few weeks in Northern Europe or Russia where being naked with friends, family and strangers alike while enjoying the sauna, banya, etc. might help alot with some of your issues.

    Right - it is sorted then - one big changing room for everyone. (cheaper for the gyms too) :D


  • #90
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    walshb wrote: »
    Read green hornets post above!
    I did and that is why I asked
    and what happens then? Is the child abused or harmed in any way? Is there any more risk of the child being harmed whilst changing with a parent in the Mens changing room than anywhere else? Will there be negative effects for a young girl seeing a man changing clothes?
    to which I got no reply so maybe you can answer the questions.


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  • #91
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    axer wrote: »
    I did and that is why I asked
    to which I got no reply so maybe you can answer the questions.

    The issue shouldn't focus on whether or not the child can be harmed. Harmed is very subjective. Physically harmed? That's open to debate and yes, it is a possibility in the gyms I have been in. Mentally or emotionally harmed, again, who knows. Either way, this isn't the real issue. The real issue is whether or not it is proper to allow young girls into mens changing areas WITHOUT providing proper changing facilities (cubicles), where parents have the choice to change their young girls in some privacy!

    All I have said is this and I am done saying it now. No problem whatsoever with nudity and adults mixing openly; but when young children are involved, I think a certain discretion should be applied.


  • #92
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    walshb wrote: »
    The issue shouldn't focus on whether or not the child can be harmed. Harmed is very subjective. Physically harmed? That's open to debate and yes, it is a possibility in the gyms I have been in. Mentally or emotionally harmed, again, who knows. Either way, this isn't the real issue. The real issue is whether or not it is proper to allow young girls into mens changing areas WITHOUT providing proper changing facilities (cubicles), where parents have the choice to change their young girls in some privacy!
    Whether a child is negatively effected is the issue or are you saying that an adult negatively effected is an issue here? You say it is wrong because it is not proper. What is proper? Who decides proper? That is the silly argument I am talking about i.e. its "just not right" for no reason other than it feels wrong because of the Irish "fear of nakedness and showing flesh" mentality.

    The only way it could be wrong is if it negatively effects the child. You have not properly answered - is the child more likely to be affected negatively by changing in a mens dressing room? If yes, how will they be affected negatively? How will they be physically harmed when their parent will be right beside them changing with them? Will they be attacked and abused or what? If there is no negative effect on the child then there is nothing wrong with it.
    walshb wrote: »
    All I have said is this and I am done saying it now. No problem whatsoever with nudity and adults mixing openly; but when young children are involved, I think a certain discretion should be applied.
    but yet you don't give reasons why it is bad for a child to change into swim gear in a mens dressing room. Should the child be embarrassed about the possibility of being seen naked? Do you really think he/she cares? If anything that kind of mentality of "they must not see me naked" is damaging to a child and can cause serious confidence and self-image issues.


  • #93
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    axer wrote: »
    Whether a child is negatively effected is the issue or are you saying that an adult negatively effected is an issue here? You say it is wrong because it is not proper. What is proper? Who decides proper? That is the silly argument I am talking about i.e. its "just not right" for no reason other than it feels wrong because of the Irish "fear of nakedness and showing flesh" mentality.

    The only way it could be wrong is if it negatively effects the child. You have not properly answered - is the child more likely to be affected negatively by changing in a mens dressing room? If yes, how will they be affected negatively? How will they be physically harmed when their parent will be right beside them changing with them? Will they be attacked and abused or what? If there is no negative effect on the child then there is nothing wrong with it.

    but yet you don't give reasons why it is bad for a child to change into swim gear in a mens dressing room. Should the child be embarrassed about the possibility of being seen naked? Do you really think he/she cares? If anything that kind of mentality of "they must not see me naked" is damaging to a child and can cause serious confidence and self-image issues.

    Should a parent have the right to change their children in private if they choose?

    Yes or no?

    How will they be physically harmed?

    I did answer that. I told you many times that the gyms I have been in have been
    littered with many men; and young children roaming free, with parents not paying all that much attention. So yes, there is a possibility. As for the emotional harm, how can I or you or anyone know the possible effects


  • #94
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    walshb wrote: »
    Should a parent have the right to change their children in private if the choose?

    Yes or no?
    Of course they have the right so I ask you this:

    Should a male parent have the right to change his young daughter in a mens changing room if he chooses?

    Yes or no?
    walshb wrote: »
    How will they be physically harmed?

    I did answer that. I told you many times that the gyms I have been in have been
    littered with many men; and young children roaming free, with parents not paying all that much attention. So yes, there is a possibility.
    It doesn't matter where a child is roaming free for the changing room or on the street - either way to leave a child unsupervised wherever is a risk. You are trying to imply that it is more of a risk whilst in a changing room. That is just wrong.

    The gyms were "littered with many men"? Do you not think there is just as much of a risk of the child being abused anywhere where children are left unsupervised?
    walshb wrote: »
    As for the emotional harm, how can I or you or anyone know the possible effects
    You are the one that is saying it is wrong to do without any evidence to suggest it is.


  • #95
    delly
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭delly


    Ok, how about looking it from this view.

    So many people are saying that there is no harm in being openly naked and so many European countries have it that way, so why shouldn't we?

    First off, I say that if it became an open policy where so many children and adults were naked in changing rooms without inhibitions, then I think it would be a fact that you would get peado's going to swimming pools more often to try and get a peek of a child. Would you agree or disagree with this?

    Even if you disagree with this statement, and you still say what harm comes to the child, what harm comes to a woman changing in her own home with somebody looking in? No physical harm comes to the woman, so whats the problem? Its the same with kids in a changing room, no physical harm comes to them but the potential of such a open naked policy in the peado capital of Europe i.e. Ireland, would result in an increase in scum trying to take a look without you knowing, as they sure as hell aren't going to do it when you can see them.


  • #96
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    delly wrote: »
    Ok, how about looking it from this view.

    So many people are saying that there is no harm in being openly naked and so many European countries have it that way, so why shouldn't we?

    First off, I say that if it became an open policy where so many children and adults were naked in changing rooms without inhibitions, then I think it would be a fact that you would get peado's going to swimming pools more often to try and get a peek of a child. Would you agree or disagree with this?

    Even if you disagree with this statement, and you still say what harm comes to the child, what harm comes to a woman changing in her own home with somebody looking in? No physical harm comes to the woman, so whats the problem? Its the same with kids in a changing room, no physical harm comes to them but the potential of such a open naked policy in the peado capital of Europe i.e. Ireland, would result in an increase in scum trying to take a look without you knowing, as they sure as hell aren't going to do it when you can see them.

    I agree fully; liberalism in relation to this can breed this sort of behaviour, where actual paedos' will be joining gyms just to prowl. Even though no physical harm may come to the child, do you want the POSSIBILITY of
    some perv ogling your daughter, because this is the key issue. And don't tell me that every man in a changing area is NOT a pervert; I'd say most are not, but there will always be a few! I as a parent will not risk it, if you want to, then go ahead.

    axer, we have been going back and forward on this issue. The bottom line is you think there is zero wrong with young girls being allowed change openly and freely amongst many men, and strange men. I think this is wrong and I think cubicles should be provided and used in this situation.


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  • #97
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    walshb wrote: »
    I agree fully; liberalism in relation to this can breed this sort of behaviour, where actual paedos' will be joining gyms just to prowl. Even though no physical harm may come to the child, do you want the POSSIBILITY of
    some perv ogling your daughter, because this is the key issue. And don't tell me that every man in a changing area is NOT a pervert; I'd say most are not, but there will always be a few! I as a parent will not risk it, if you want to, then go ahead.

    axer, we have been going back and forward on this issue. The bottom line is you think there is zero wrong with young girls being allowed change openly and freely amongst many men, and strange men. I think this is wrong and I think cubicles should be provided and used in this situation.
    but you did not answer my question even though I answered yours and this question is the essence of what this thread is about.

    Should a male parent have the right to change his young daughter in a mens changing room if he chooses?

    Yes or no?


  • #98
    delly
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭delly


    Its a catch 22, what a father should have is the right to change his daughter in private.

    However, should a father be allowed to change his daughter in mens changing room? I think no. If there aren't proper facility's then go elsewhere or kick up a fuss. I personally would not want to see other peoples naked daughters in a changing room.

    There are a million and one things that are wrong with this country, things that aren't fair or right. What I don't believe in is making do with a situation as is, just because nobody has bothered to fix it.


  • #99
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,696 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    axer wrote: »
    but you did not answer my question even though I answered yours and this question is the essence of what this thread is about.

    Should a male parent have the right to change his young daughter in a mens changing room if he chooses?

    Yes or no?
    Legally, he has the right to do so. I think the issue is that there should be cubicles provided for young girls in male changing rooms. But, as I said, legally I believe he has the right to change her in full view of anyone. I personally think this is odd and not the right thing, but that's just me.

    I wouldn't change my daughter in full view of many men. Am I weird to want some privacy for my child? I don't think so and I am not prepared to take the risk that there are some men who are perverts and will ogle at any opportunity.

    That's the best common ground I can give you!


  • #100
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    delly wrote: »
    I personally would not want to see other peoples naked daughters in a changing room.
    For your sake or theirs?
    walshb wrote: »
    Legally, he has the right to do so. I think the issue is that there should be cubicles provided for young girls in male changing rooms. But, as I said, legally I believe he has the right to change her in full view of anyone. I personally think this is odd and not the right thing, but that's just me.

    I wouldn't change my daughter in full view of many men. Am I weird to want some privacy for my child? I don't think so and I am not prepared to take the risk that there are some men who are perverts and will ogle at any opportunity.

    That's the best common ground I can give you!
    so have you an issue then with a father that disagrees with your opinion like delly seems to an issue with i.e. you wouldn't do it for your child but would you have problem with a father choosing to change his 5 year old daughter into swimgear in the mens changing room because he does not see the big deal or would you make a complaint or say it to the father?


  • #101
    delly
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭delly


    axer wrote: »
    For your sake or theirs?
    Both, I wouldn't feel comfortable with it, nor do I think the child should have to (unknowingly) endure it.

    /EDIT oh, and i wouldn't say anything about it to the father, I just wouldn't like it in the first place.


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