Etiquette - Young Girls In Mens Changing Rooms.

Green Hornet

Just wondering what people feel about young girls in the mens changing rooms at Kingfisher swimming pool? I'm a member but have noticed an increase in the number of young girls (under 6 or so) in the room when the men are changing.

I'm not a prude and have used changing rooms without cubicles for years but in my previous experience I've never seen little girls in the room when there are men with their privates hanging out. I find it uncomfortable when I'm changing and some guy brings in his little daughter and my bits are on show.

Is this normal etiquette?

Fajitas!

Moved from Spraoi thread.

I assume you meant to start a new one... I could move this to one of the fitness forums, where more members might attend gyms if you want. Let me know if you do.


Fwiw, I would not feel comfortable in your position in there.

Green Hornet

Fajitas! wrote: »

Moved from Spraoi thread.

I assume you meant to start a new one... I could move this to one of the fitness forums, where more members might attend gyms if you want. Let me know if you do.


Fwiw, I would not feel comfortable in your position in there.

Thanks Fajitas. Meant to start a new thread. Actually, it might be a good idea to move it to the swimming forum.

kryogen

Green Hornet wrote: »

Oops. Wrong forum....:o

are you lost?

nice edit my friend

Fajitas!

Edit it back into your post, and I'll move it over for you!

Cabaal

Its a difficult situation to call, in fairness its unfair to not allow fathers to bring their children into the changing rooms when mothers can bring their kids in.

Understandably its likely to be uncomfortable, perhaps kingfisher should have private individial changing rooms for parents and kids for situations like this?

Green Hornet

Cabaal wrote: »

Its a difficult situation to call, in fairness its unfair to not allow fathers to bring their children into the changing rooms when mothers can bring their kids in.

Understandably its likely to be uncomfortable, perhaps kingfisher should have private individial changing rooms for parents and kids for situations like this?

Yeah, I can understand that fathers might want to bring their daughters to the pool. Your idea is a good one.

Fajitas!

Sent to Swimming.

hunnymonster

I think 7 is the usual age that pools/gyms ask opposite sex kids to change in the correct changing room and not with the other sex parent but I can completely understand being slightly uncomfortable.

griffin100

My wife was in the gym lasy week and there was a mother with two boys of about 7 and 10 in the ladies changing room. This made her very uncomfortable. If it were two girls of that age in a mens changing room I too would be very uncomfortable!

cantalach

Hey this will knock your socks off: at the pool where my kids have swimming lessons, it's very common for the moms to go into the men's changing room to help their not-so-little darling sons get changed afterwards. There are only children in the pool during the morning so it's not as though there will be any men trying to get changed in there at that time. But that's hardly the point is it. When I challenged one of them on one occasion she unapologetically explained that "he's a bit too old to get changed in the women's." I suggested in response that in that case he should be able to get himself changed (he was 8-9!) but this didn't go down too well. When I raised the issue with the manager on duty she said that their legal advice was that they had to let the moms go into the changing rooms with the boys because of the risk of paedophiles!

thirdmantackle

surely they could put the kids into a cubicle to change?

very strange behaviour

cantalach

thirdmantackle wrote: »

surely they could put the kids into a cubicle to change?

Small changing room with no cubicles - just benches along both sides and showers at the back.

axer

Is there no cubicles at all? If there is then I cannot see why they are not being used by those mothers etc.

It wouldnt really bother me though. People are still afraid of nudity in Ireland. I have gotten used to the continent where it is not a big deal. Who gives a f'uck who sees your dangly bits as long as nobody is there with a camera recording for youtube.

topper75

Yeah the 'issue' with nudity in this country (and Britain) is hilarious. It's not like people's so-called private parts vary that greatly. It is just a mental hang-up.

I think in the cases outlined above that the gym rather than the people are at fault. The onus is on them to provide some manner of 'family' cubicles.

Neamhshuntasach

It's a little uncomfortable all right. I had a father come up and ask me to put "that thing away" while i was drying off. He had his 2 daughters in the men's changing rooms. It pissed me off because after all it was a men's changing room and that was exactly what i was doing. I told him to put them away and read the sign on the door the next time.

Green Hornet

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

It's a little uncomfortable all right. I had a father come up and ask me to put "that thing away" while i was drying off. He had his 2 daughters in the men's changing rooms. It pissed me off because after all it was a men's changing room and that was exactly what i was doing. I told him to put them away and read the sign on the door the next time.

Well said! Dead right.

Stark

I'm more worried about the parent's reaction than the kid seeing my bits to be honest. "Oh my god, my daughter saw your penis. You pervert". If the parent isn't bothered (most aren't), then I'm not too pushed either, although I do tend to be a little bit more discreet when getting changed. Mothers having the cheek to get offended by manbits in the men's changing rooms on the other hand will get a faceful.

RuailleBuaille

topper75 wrote: »

Yeah the 'issue' with nudity in this country (and Britain) is hilarious. It's not like people's so-called private parts vary that greatly. It is just a mental hang-up.

I agree. I mean, a little girl is getting changed with her dad, she might catch a glimpse of him, she catches a glimpse of other men and she realises they all have penises. Not the end of the world. Same thing happens on the beach. You catch a glimpse, it's not perving or anything.
Saying that, I would love to see what the father's reaction would be if everyone just got on with it, strolling round naked. Would he have an issue with it?
I think these days it's sad how we project our sexual issues onto children.

RuailleBuaille

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

It's a little uncomfortable all right. I had a father come up and ask me to put "that thing away" while i was drying off. He had his 2 daughters in the men's changing rooms. It pissed me off because after all it was a men's changing room and that was exactly what i was doing. I told him to put them away and read the sign on the door the next time.

That is hilarious!! He evidently did a 'cockscan' upon entering the room and saw yours as a threat (to him or his daughters - you decide) whilst his poor daughters probably had no idea what the fuss was!
The bloody cheek of the man! :eek:
This is why I think it's sad we project our sex issues onto children. Most young kids wouldn't associate a penis or vagina with sex, so making a big deal about seeing one gets alarm bells ringing for a child and then guilt and shame and secrecy take hold. It's unneccessary.

Chris Peak

cantalach wrote: »

Hey this will knock your socks off: at the pool where my kids have swimming lessons, it's very common for the moms to go into the men's changing room to help their not-so-little darling sons get changed afterwards. There are only children in the pool during the morning so it's not as though there will be any men trying to get changed in there at that time. But that's hardly the point is it. When I challenged one of them on one occasion she unapologetically explained that "he's a bit too old to get changed in the women's." I suggested in response that in that case he should be able to get himself changed (he was 8-9!) but this didn't go down too well. When I raised the issue with the manager on duty she said that their legal advice was that they had to let the moms go into the changing rooms with the boys because of the risk of paedophiles!

So, can a Dad go into the womens changing room to help his daughter? Or, protect her from any potential Myra Hyndley's....?
Not bloody likely!:rolleyes:

Johnny Utah

cantalach wrote: »

Hey this will knock your socks off: at the pool where my kids have swimming lessons, it's very common for the moms to go into the men's changing room to help their not-so-little darling sons get changed afterwards. There are only children in the pool during the morning so it's not as though there will be any men trying to get changed in there at that time. But that's hardly the point is it. When I challenged one of them on one occasion she unapologetically explained that "he's a bit too old to get changed in the women's." I suggested in response that in that case he should be able to get himself changed (he was 8-9!) but this didn't go down too well. When I raised the issue with the manager on duty she said that their legal advice was that they had to let the moms go into the changing rooms with the boys because of the risk of paedophiles!

They got bad legal advice then so. By allowing women into the men's changing room, the pool are leaving themselves open to a case on breach of privacy. Rather, the pool should provide a number of cubicles where the moms and sons can go should they choose to do so.

Chris Peak wrote: »

So, can a Dad go into the womens changing room to help his daughter? Or, protect her from any potential Myra Hyndley's....?
Not bloody likely!:rolleyes:

Exactly, that's equality for you!

walshb

I brought this issue up at my local gym where young girls were allowed roam freely around the shower area in full view of men, both clothed and naked, as you expect to see in a mens gym. It is completely wrong and doesn't in any way compare to women bringing their young children into the womens changing area. Men and women in this regard are completely different. Does anyone know of any legitimate cases of female pedophiles?
I was told that there was nothing that could be done and I firmly believe for a man to allow
his 5 or 6 year old daughter (naked) to be in the presence of many naked and strange men is obscene and wrong

cantalach

walshb wrote: »

Does anyone know of any legitimate cases of female pedophiles?

Myra Hindley for one.

walshb

cantalach wrote: »

Myra Hindley for one.

C'mon, I think its safe to say that the risks posed by women to children regarding sex abuse is absolute minimal. Men through history and nature will always pose a far more serious risk

Stark

So you're saying girls are being sexually abused while their fathers are in with them getting changed?

cantalach

walshb wrote: »

C'mon, I think its safe to say that the risks posed by women to children regarding sex abuse is absolute minimal. Men through history and nature will always pose a far more serious risk

Ah...I'm not saying anything mate. You asked for a case of a female paedophile and I gave you a name!

walshb

Was she a pedophile or a child murderer. There is a difference here.

I don't think she was a pedophile.

Anyway, that is neither here nor there. I think there is a massive difference
between a woman bringing her 5 or 6 year old
son or daughter into a public shower area amongst women and a man bringing
his 5 or 6 year old son or daughter into a public shower area amongst men. That's the point here.

walshb

Stark wrote: »

So you're saying girls are being sexually abused while their fathers are in with them getting changed?

I never said that, but I'm sure there have been plenty of cases of it happening.

Read above what my point is.

hunnymonster

walshb wrote: »

Anyway, that is neither here nor there. I think there is a massive difference
between a woman bringing her 5 or 6 year old
son or daughter into a public shower area amongst women and a man bringing
his 5 or 6 year old daughter into a public shower area amongst men. That's the point here.

I think that is very unfair. It's almost an assumption of guilt based on gender!

A child of 6 should be able to dress him/herself, maybe not perfectly but well enough to use the correct changing room. Mum or dad might have to put the finishing touches afterwards. A child of 6 should be confident enough, well enough versed in what to do if approached by a stranger that they would scream the place down in the (VERY VERY) unlikely event of them finding themselves alone in a changing room in an uncomfortable situation. It's an extension of the don't take sweets from the strange man in a car chat that we've all had with the kids we care about.

cantalach

walshb wrote: »

Was she a pedophile or a child murderer. There is a difference here.

I don't think she was a pedophile.

She assisted Brady when he was raping and sexually abusing several of the victims, both male and female. At a minimum, this makes her an accomplice to paedophilia. I would call her a paedophile as a result. Remember that she didn't personally murder any of the victims either but she is regarded as a murderer. In any case, when Brady was being cross-examined he said something about them all getting dressed after one of the rapes, suggesting that Hindley was more than just a passive participant.

walshb

hunnymonster wrote: »

I think that is very unfair. It's almost an assumption of guilt based on gender!

A child of 6 should be able to dress him/herself, maybe not perfectly but well enough to use the correct changing room. Mum or dad might have to put the finishing touches afterwards. A child of 6 should be confident enough, well enough versed in what to do if approached by a stranger that they would scream the place down in the (VERY VERY) unlikely event of them finding themselves alone in a changing room in an uncomfortable situation. It's an extension of the don't take sweets from the strange man in a car chat that we've all had with the kids we care about.

How is it unfair?

It's actual fact here. Men are more a threat to children than women. This has been proved and beyond doubt it has been proved.

I simply think there is a difference in the two scenarios and I think it's wrong.

Approached by a stranger?

I never said that contact had to be made etc. I simply think that allowing ones 5 or 6 year old daughter to be openly naked in a mens shower area amongst strange men is IMO wrong.

walshb

cantalach wrote: »

She assisted Brady when he was raping and sexually abusing several of the victims, both male and female. At a minimum, this makes her an accomplice to paedophilia. I would call her a paedophile as a result. Remember that she didn't personally murder any of the victims either but she is regarded as a murderer. In any case, when Brady was being cross-examined he said something about them all getting dressed after one of the rapes, suggesting that Hindley was more than just a passive participant.

Look, Hindley is a completely different debate. Well done, you named one, now let's try get back to the issue of young girls allowed into mens changing areas.

hunnymonster

walshb wrote: »

I never said that contact had to be made etc. I simply think that allowing ones 5 or 6 year old daughter to be openly naked in a mens shower area amongst strange men is IMO wrong.

but allowing your son in a naked womens shower area is ok? How is that not discrimination based on gender? boys should see vaginas but girls not penii?

walshb

hunnymonster wrote: »

but allowing your son in a naked womens shower area is ok? How is that not discrimination based on gender? boys should see vaginas but girls not penii?

Again, I never said that was right or wrong. I just said there was a difference between women and their children in a public shower area and men and their children in a public shower area
If you can't see this difference, so be it!

Killgore Trout

hunnymonster wrote: »

but allowing your son in a naked womens shower area is ok? How is that not discrimination based on gender? boys should see vaginas but girls not penii?

I walshb's problem is with adult males seeing female children naked in the mens changing rooms in case the adult males are paedophiles. But here is the problem with that argument - If the male changing rooms are such a potenial stalking ground for paedophiles - surely that would mean no children should be allowed in the men's changing rooms?

walshb

Killgore Trout wrote: »

I walshb's problem is with adult males seeing female children naked in the mens changing rooms in case the adult males are paedophiles. But here is the problem with that argument - If the male changing rooms are such a potenial stalking ground for paedophiles - surely that would mean no children should be allowed in the men's changing rooms?

My problem is not just about that risk. I think it's a little awkward and
embarrassing for both the men and children and to STOP any hint of wrongdoing, I think it should NOT be allowed, both to protect children and the men.

BTW, who can tell by simply looking at a man if he is or is NOT a pedophile?

It's not possible

titan18

Honestly,for any guys here,if you got abused by a woman would you say it?Women are jsut as likely as men to be paedophiles.Just because most of the cases have been men doesnt mean women are any less of a danger.

A mens changing room is a mens only hanging room.Same with the women's one.

delly

I went swimming at the weekend for the first time in about 10 years with my toddler daughter. TBH I didn't know what to expect but it being a new leisure centre I hoped there would be some form of accommodation.

When I arrived I was directed to one big changing area that had cubicles for men, women and children alike. They also had larger changing cubicles with baby changing facility's as well which was really great. I suppose its a case of me being lucky to have a modern centre that takes these things into account.

walshb

delly wrote: »

I went swimming at the weekend for the first time in about 10 years with my toddler daughter. TBH I didn't know what to expect but it being a new leisure centre I hoped there would be some form of accommodation.

When I arrived I was directed to one big changing area that had cubicles for men, women and children alike. They also had larger changing cubicles with baby changing facility's as well which was really great. I suppose its a case of me being lucky to have a modern centre that takes these things into account.

That's the way it should be. I went numerous times with my daughter to
the aqua centre and there is adequate facilities where children with their parents can change in privacy. That's the key point here. They should be entitled to change in privacy and not be basically paraded around a mens changing area in full view of naked strange men

walshb

titan18 wrote: »

Honestly,for any guys here,if you got abused by a woman would you say it?Women are jsut as likely as men to be paedophiles.Just because most of the cases have been men doesnt mean women are any less of a danger.

A mens changing room is a mens only hanging room.Same with the women's one.

I agree with your last point, but you are way off the mark saying men and women are equally likely to be pedophiles. The history and stats and analysis and investigations thru time have proved this to be overwhelmingly incorrect.

Johnny Utah

walshb wrote: »

Was she a pedophile or a child murderer. There is a difference here.

I don't think she was a pedophile.

Anyway, that is neither here nor there. I think there is a massive difference
between a woman bringing her 5 or 6 year old
son or daughter into a public shower area amongst women and a man bringing
his 5 or 6 year old son or daughter into a public shower area amongst men. That's the point here.

That's pretty flawed reasoning to say the least. What about a father bringing his 7 year old son into the men's changing room, would you be worried that there may be gay men naked in that changing room too?

And furthermore, you think it's ok for the young boy to be naked in the women's changing room?

Do you not see the issues of gender discrimination arising?

You're almost assuming guilt based on gender, which is wrong.







Tbh (and I'm not doubting the stories posted), I don't think any modern pool/gym would be naive enough to have such policies in place (ie. either mother + son, or father + daughter in men's changing room). The gym/pool would leave themselves wide open to cases on gender discrimination/breaches of privacy, and possibly even unfounded accusations of paedophilia. I've never experienced any of these issues in my own gym.

hunnymonster

walsb b, by extension f your reasoning, boys should not be using the gents toilets? Are toilets going to turn into Nightclubs where people are being asked for ID (to prove age and gender) before using the toilet. Alright, that last sentence is ridiculous, but so is suggesting all men are suspect paedophiles as you have been implying.

Johnny Utah

And, what about post-operative male-to-female transgender patients, which changing room should they use?

liamo

Johnny Utah wrote: »

And, what about post-operative male-to-female transgender patients, which changing room should they use?

And, what about pre-operative male-to-female transgender patients after hormone therapy? They have equipment down below and up top.
Can they choose to go into either changing room depending on their mood? The mind boggles.

axer

What is the big deal about seeing a man naked? Most penises look pretty much the same.

What has pedephilia got to do this? Are all men pedephiles? Does seeing a naked young girl turn men into pedephiles?

Whats the big deal with someone seeing you naked in a changing room? If there are no cubicles then other men will most likely see you naked. What if these other men in the changing room are homosexuals - would that make a difference?

There are many pedephiles that prey on young boys - does that mean that men should not bring their sons into the mens changing rooms for fear that a pedephile might see the boy(s) thus initiating sexual abuse?

walshb wrote: »

I firmly believe for a man to allow
his 5 or 6 year old daughter (naked) to be in the presence of many naked and strange men is obscene and wrong

I don't get this. Are all men that are naked in the presence of a 5/6 year old girl (naked) automatically strange? Are all men just naturally automatically strange?

No wonder people in Ireland are so afraid of showing any flesh with parents passing this type of mentality onto their children. FFS. Come over to the continent and you will see that nudity is not a big deal - it is only when you make it a big deal.

walshb

Johnny Utah wrote: »

That's pretty flawed reasoning to say the least. What about a father bringing his 7 year old son into the men's changing room, would you be worried that there may be gay men naked in that changing room too?

And furthermore, you think it's ok for the young boy to be naked in the women's changing room?

Do you not see the issues of gender discrimination arising?

You're almost assuming guilt based on gender, which is wrong.







Tbh (and I'm not doubting the stories posted), I don't think any modern pool/gym would be naive enough to have such policies in place (ie. either mother + son, or father + daughter in men's changing room). The gym/pool would leave themselves wide open to cases on gender discrimination/breaches of privacy, and possibly even unfounded accusations of paedophilia. I've never experienced any of these issues in my own gym.

What has boys got to do with this?

The thread is about young girls being allowed in the changing room with MEN.

I said this was inappropriate and I also said there was a distinct
difference between young girls in the female changing rooms with their mother
amongst strange women and young girls in the mens changing area with their
father and being amongst strange men

It's not rocket science:rolleyes:

And no there's no big deal about seeing a man naked. There is a difference between
adults seeing adults naked and adults viewing or seeing
children naked and children being allowed see them naked.

I'm sorry, but there
is a difference here and anyone who thinks there's nothing wrong with young
innocent girls being paraded around a mens changing room naked amongst strange
naked men is a bit worrying!

Johnny Utah

walshb wrote: »

What has boys got to do with this?

Because you based your concerns on paedophilia. You do realise that males paedophiles prey on young boys too. Surely, if your concerned about paedophiles in changing rooms, then you'd be arguing for separate changing rooms for boys on their own.

walshb wrote: »

The thread is about young girls being allowed in the changing room with MEN.

I said this was inappropriate and I also said there was a distinct
difference between young girls in the female changing rooms with their mother
amongst strange women and young girls in the mens changing area with their
father and being amongst strange men

It's not rocket science:rolleyes:

And no there's no big deal about seeing a man naked. There is a difference between
adults seeing adults naked and adults viewing or seeing
children naked and children being allowed see them naked.

I'm sorry, but there
is a difference here and anyone who thinks there's nothing wrong with young
innocent girls being paraded around a mens changing room naked amongst strange
naked men is a bit worrying!

No, you said there is a difference between a young girl in a men's changing room, and a young boy in a women's changing room. So, it's ok for a young boy to be naked in front of women and see naked women, but it's not ok the other way round. I'm sorry you can't have it both ways- under the principle of equality, both genders should be treated the same.

axer

walshb wrote: »

What has boys got to do with this?

Same difference really. A young boy is just as vunerable as a young girl to pedephiles etc. or whatever type of people you think lurk around in mens dressing rooms waiting for these innocent vunerable young naked children.

walshb wrote: »

And no there's no big deal about seeing a man naked. There is a difference between
adults seeing adults naked and adults viewing or seeing
children naked and children being allowed see them naked.

Why? What difference does it make? Is it just wrong?

walshb wrote: »

I'm sorry, but there
is a difference here and anyone who thinks there's nothing wrong with young innocent girls being paraded around a mens changing room naked amongst strange naked men is a bit worrying!

I think it is a bit worrying that you think it is wrong that if a young girl is naked in the presence of a naked man that somehow that means she is being abused or that it will trigger abuse or that it means the man will be thinking sexual thoughts of the innocent young naked girl. What is worrying is that someone's mind could automatically assume that.

I don't know how you think that these innocent young naked girls are being forced to walk around in circles, "paraded around" as you put it, whilst "strange" men stare. I am not sure where you are getting these ideas from. It is a bit worrying tbh.

I guess above are the thoughts of evil nakedness that are still plauging Ireland being passed from generation to generation, causing this irrational fear of nakedness and showing of flesh and the automatic association of both nakedness and showing of flesh to sex and dirty thoughts.

walshb

axer wrote: »

Same difference really. A young boy is just as vunerable as a young girl to pedephiles etc. or whatever type of people you think lurk around in mens dressing rooms waiting for these innocent vunerable young naked children.

Why? What difference does it make? Is it just wrong?

I think it is a bit worrying that you think it is wrong that if a young girl is naked in the presence of a naked man that somehow that means she is being abused or that it will trigger abuse or that it means the man will be thinking sexual thoughts of the innocent young naked girl. What is worrying is that someone's mind could automatically assume that.

I don't know how you think that these innocent young naked girls are being forced to walk around in circles, "paraded around" as you put it, whilst "strange" men stare. I am not sure where you are getting these ideas from. It is a bit worrying tbh.

I guess above are the thoughts of evil nakedness that are still plauging Ireland being passed from generation to generation, causing this irrational fear of nakedness and showing of flesh and the automatic association of both nakedness and showing of flesh to sex and dirty thoughts.

I have been in male changing rooms and have seen young girls walking around naked amongst many naked men. It is happening and I think this is wrong. And yes, a young boy walking around a male changing room naked amongst many naked men is wrong too. Children and adults need to be separated in this regard and need to have certain privacies. Adults are different, they have a choice of whether or NOT to be in this scenario. The children do not have a choice and are brought into this scenario.

This is the point. Adults have choices as adults; children need choices made for them and any man who allows his young daughter to be openly naked in full view of others is wrong.

"I think it is a bit worrying that you think it is wrong that if a young girl is naked in the presence of a naked man that somehow that means she is being abused or that it will trigger abuse or that it means the man will be thinking sexual thoughts of the innocent young naked girl. What is worrying is that someone's mind could automatically assume that."

Your quote above, I never said this at all. I said that it is inappropriate. Where did I say she was or wasn't being abused? If you are going to debate, please don't misquote me!

What is wrong with the way the aqua centre do it. They have cubicles were young children can
change with their parents with some privacy. Why can't this be the case, instead of
having to go into a mens changing room and see young girls lumped in with many men all
just going 'about their business'....

cantalach

walshb wrote: »

I have been in male changing rooms and have seen young girls walking around naked amongst many naked men. It is happening and I think this is wrong. And yes, a young boy walking around a male changing room naked amongst many naked men is wrong too. Children and adults need to be separated in this regard and need to have certain privacies. Adults are different, they have a choice of whether or NOT to be in this scenario. The children do not have a choice and are brought into this scenario.

I believe that the above fairly comprehensively summarises your view. In so doing, it has become very clear to me (and I suspect others too) that you have issues. I don't intend to debate the point with you any further as a result. Get some help.