Etiquette - Young Girls In Mens Changing Rooms.

Zulu

delly wrote: »

Mens changing rooms are for men/boys, womens are for women/girls. Based on the fact that most people here think its ok for young girls to be in a mens changing room, then why aren't fully grown women allowed in?

Because they can change themselves, and don't require supervision.

Taught that was straight forward?

delly

Zulu wrote: »

Because they can change themselves, and don't require supervision.

Taught that was straight forward?

My point was that people are chomping at the bit to say its ok for naked kids to be in front of naked adults of the opposite sex. So why isn't it ok for adults to mix? Its nothing to do with being able to dress yourself, why are men and women separated?

axer

jaykay74 wrote: »

Naked doesn't mean dirty.

Exactly. That attitude of nakedness being something dirty is unfortunately very prevalent in Ireland. I cannot understand how someone could think that an adult seeing a naked young girl or a young girl seeing a naked man is something disgusting or wrong but I guess that is how some people are brought up to believe.

delly wrote: »

And no, I don't think its going to corrupt my childs mind, but there are environments which are appropriate and ones that aren't and i believe making a separation between male and female is important or is this some wacked out 50's idea?

What is wrong with the environment?

axer

delly wrote: »

My point was that people are chomping at the bit to say its ok for naked kids to be in front of naked adults of the opposite sex. So why isn't it ok for adults to mix? Its nothing to do with being able to dress yourself, why are men and women separated?

I actually don't see it as a problem. I go to a spa here in Germany in the local swimming pool. The changing rooms are mixed and you don't wear clothes in the sauna (it is actually disgusting wearing swimming togs in saunas).

I never have a problem with it and neither does anyone else there since we don't believe nakedness is dirty (nor is it automatically sexual) but this is a seperate debate to that of kids which is what this thread is about. I am not saying that they should not be seperate though since that would be a major leap in Ireland (too much for some).

The kids would not have an issue - they wouldn't care less who is naked around them so I fail to see how it would effect them negatively in life? In fact it would show them that everyone is pretty much the same and nakedness is not shameful although the years of influence that follow will most likely corrupt them.

jaykay74

delly wrote: »

My point was that people are chomping at the bit to say its ok for naked kids to be in front of naked adults of the opposite sex. So why isn't it ok for adults to mix? Its nothing to do with being able to dress yourself, why are men and women separated?

Is it not obvious that irish people are generally prudish so the rules are set accordingly by pools/gyms etc. Thats not a criticism just fact, I'm more prudish than a lot of my swedish friends. Been to Sweden loads of time, nobody cares if you are naked or not in the mixed changing rooms. nobody stares as it is rude but nobody is embarrassed either.

Stark

delly wrote: »

My point was that people are chomping at the bit to say its ok for naked kids to be in front of naked adults of the opposite sex. So why isn't it ok for adults to mix? Its nothing to do with being able to dress yourself, why are men and women separated?

It's just a cultural thing, no particular reasons. In many countries in Europe, they're fine with men and women being naked together.

liamo

I imagine that most people don't have a problem with male children being in the same room as other males.

If that room happens to be a changing room then it's very likely that people in that room will be in various states of undress.

If you're uncomfortable in that environment then don't go there.
If you're uncomfortable bringing your son (or very young daughter) into that environment then don't.

I am as comfortable in the changing room with a pensioner as I am with a 2 year old regardless of our respective states of dress or undress. Others in my gym appear to be as comfortable as me. Again - this is a changing room and nudity is to be expect at some point.

If a father brings his very young daughter into the changing room (as happens from time to time in my gym) that's ok. However, Any older than 6 and I believe that it's time for the mother (or other female guardian) to accompany the child into the female changing room. I would begin to feel uncomfortable above that age and my discomfort would increase with the age of the child.

Also, I believe it is completely unacceptable for a mother to accompany her son into the changing room. It's a men's changing room and it should be as off-limits to women as the female changing room is to men.

This is not a male-only thing. A female friend recently reported to me instances of mothers bringing their pre-teen sons into the female changing room. This made my friend extremely uncomfortable and I understand her discomfort.

This is most definitely a cultural thing. I am uncomfortable with nudity in the company of adult members of the opposite sex and I believe my attitude is relatively representative. I don't have an issue with my discomfort nor do I have a problem with someone who doesn't share my discomfort. The trick is to be aware of the sensitivies of others and to (within reason) take it into consideration.

This subject is not rocket science nor does it merit the flames that have been generated in this thread.
Yes, people will have different opinions about this subject but I believe most people's opinions on the subject will have more similarities than differences.

At the end of the day, it's about applying common sense and having some consideration for others around you.

delly

Some very good points Liamo.

walshb

Delly nailed it when he said 'you can PC bull**** all you like'

You can dress it up anyway you like and use all these naturist examples etc etc; but it doesn't get away from the fact that open nakedness among adults is one thing and nakedness among adults mixed with children is another. Anyone saying that there's no distinction or difference is IMO off the wall.

I have ZERO problem with children being allowed into either dressing room at any age. My problem is that these places are not providing the necessary facilities for parents to allow them the choice and right to change their children in privacy. That's all!

The Aqua centre is perfect and proper. But this lark of anything goes and any child can simply wander around a mens or womens (but particularly mens) changing room naked amongst dozens of adults is obscene; and this is exactly what I have seen, children walking around mens changing rooms unsupervised and free.

axer

walshb wrote: »

You can dress it up anyway you like and use all these naturist examples etc etc; but it doesn't get away from the fact that open nakedness among adults is one thing and nakedness among adults mixed with children is another. Anyone saying that there's no distinction or difference is IMO off the wall.

You seem to think that these kids need privacy which in fact it is the adults that have the problem. The kids could not care less since they have not yet been corrupted into that prudish mindset.

What is this negative effect of child and adult naked in the same room? You have said it is not because of pedephilia, you have said you don't think it corrupts the childs mind - so what is it? I get the impression you just "think it is wrong" and that is it.

walshb wrote: »

I have ZERO problem with children being allowed into either dressing room at any age. My problem is that these places are not providing the necessary facilities for parents to allow them the choice and right to change their children in privacy. That's all!

Your problem is more than that - your problem is that you think that it is completely wrong for adults and children to be naked in the same room. Who sounds more "off the wall"?

walshb wrote: »

The Aqua centre is perfect and proper. But this lark of anything goes and any child can simply wander around a mens or womens (but particularly mens) changing room naked amongst dozens of adults is obscene; and this is exactly what I have seen, children walking around mens changing rooms unsupervised and free.

"Perfect and proper" - lol

What is so "obscene" about it? Do they look disgusting? Are the "strange" naked men perverts? Is it totally unnatural? Are the men sexual predators instead of just swimmers getting changed? It sounds "off the wall" to jump to something sexual from just a person changing their clothes. Who does that say more about - the ones just getting changed and minding their own business or the ones that think it is "obscene" and should be stopped? "Oh god, someone think of the children" lol

Unsupervised is a different story since it doesn't matter if the child is naked or not children should be supervised.

walshb

axer wrote: »

You seem to think that these kids need privacy which in fact it is the adults that have the problem. The kids could not care less since they have not yet been corrupted into that prudish mindset.

What is this negative effect of child and adult naked in the same room? You have said it is not because of pedephilia, you have said you don't think it corrupts the childs mind - so what is it? I get the impression you just "think it is wrong" and that is it.

Your problem is more than that - your problem is that you think that it is completely wrong for adults and children to be naked in the same room. Who sounds more "off the wall"?

"Perfect and proper" - lol

What is so "obscene" about it? Do they look disgusting? Are the "strange" naked men perverts? Is it totally unnatural? Are the men sexual predators instead of just swimmers getting changed? It sounds "off the wall" to jump to something sexual from just a person changing their clothes. Who does that say more about - the ones just getting changed and minding their own business or the ones that think it is "obscene" and should be stopped? "Oh god, someone think of the children" lol

Unsupervised is a different story since it doesn't matter if the child is naked or not children should be supervised.

Ok, simple question. Do you see a difference between adults openly naked amongst each other and adults and children being openly naked amongst each other. It's a simple question. Is there a difference?

And don't give me the obvious stupid answer that yes there is a difference, one scenario is adults and the other is children!

axer

walshb wrote: »

Ok, simple question. Do you see a difference between adults openly naked amongst each other and adults and children being openly naked amongst each other. It's a simple question. Is there a difference?

And don't give me the obvious stupid answer that yes there is a difference, one scenario is adults and the other is children!

Naked is naked for both equally unless you bring in a sexual aspect to it. I would think the children would care less than adults (especially in Ireland). I don't know what difference you are looking for; a moral difference or what? Nakedness is a big deal for children only if you make a big deal for them.

You didnt answer any of my questions in the last post or in this post. What exactly is "obscene" about children being naked in the same room as adults when changing to go into the swimming pool?

walshb

axer wrote: »

Naked is naked for both equally unless you bring in a sexual aspect to it. I would think the children would care less than adults (especially in Ireland). I don't know what difference you are looking for; a moral difference or what? Nakedness is a big deal for children only if you make a big deal for them.

You didnt answer any of my questions in the last post or in this post. What exactly is "obscene" about children being naked in the same room as adults when changing to go into the swimming pool?

So basically you do not see any difference. Ok, I see where you are coming from now. I'll leave it there:rolleyes:

axer

walshb wrote: »

So basically you do not see any difference. Ok, I see where you are coming from now. I'll leave it there:rolleyes:

intelligent argument. How about answering some of the questions I asked you or at least tell me the difference as you see it.

walshb

axer wrote: »

intelligent argument. How about answering some of the questions I asked you or at least tell me the difference as you see it.

Well the difference is simple. One scenario is adults mixing openly with adults where both have a choice and can or cannot consent; and in all fairness, being naked amongst strangers is for some, not all that appealing, which I fully accept and respect. I personally am not too bothered, but I wouldn't be running around naked if you know what I mean:), a litlle discretion is all I ask for.

Now, the whole aspect of young children being treated exactly the same way as adults in relation to nakedness and showering etc is IMO a different scenario, and one which needs certain discretion and privacy applied. I am not saying it is abominable. I just think it's wrong to say that both scenarios are pretty much the same. They are NOT!

axer

walshb wrote: »

Well the difference is simple. One scenario is adults mixing openly with adults where both have a choice and can or cannot consent; and in all fairness, being naked amongst strangers is for some, not all that appealing, which I fully accept and respect. I personally am not too bothered, but I wouldn't be running around naked if you know what I mean:), a litlle discretion is all I ask for.

What do they need to consent for? Do honestly believe the children care one bit about changing in front men that are also changing? You talk about children running around naked - that sounds more like children that are not bothered about being naked rather than children that are afraid or ashamed.

We are not talking about everyone running around naked we are talking about people changing into swimming gear, having a shower and then changing back. We are not talking about sex or any sort of sexual activity which would be obscene.

When it comes to children the parents make the decisions for them. If a father chooses to bring his young daughter into the mens changing rooms so that he can change her then he is doing so because he does not see a problem with it nor does he believe his child will have a problem with it.

walshb wrote: »

Now, the whole aspect of young children being treated exactly the same way as adults in relation to nakedness and showering etc is IMO a different scenario, and one which needs certain discretion and privacy applied. I am not saying it is abominable. I just think it's wrong to say that both scenarios are pretty much the same. They are NOT!

What is treating children the same as adults - what needs to be treated differently? Children will only feel it is a big deal if adults make it seem like a big deal. Is it ok for parents to be in the same room naked with their children or is it wrong for every adult (including parents) and child to be naked in the same room together?

How would it effect the children negatively? It seems to me that it is the adults that have the problem which is more a reflection on them than anyone else. What exactly is the problem that will be caused to a child from being naked in a room with the child's parent with some other naked people in the room (by naked I don't mean everyone just standing around being naked or running around naked)?

Gillo

I've brought my daughter in to changing rooms a number of time's it's a choice either I bring her in (don't make a fuss) get her changed and go for a swim or she doesn't get to go swimming. She six (sex in a few weeks) and know the difference between men and women. I wouldn't feel comfortable sending her off to the women's changing rooms by herself end off. It's a simple task take off clothes, put swimsuit on and do the reverse a hour later.

I don't think it's off topic, but mod's feel free to correct me if necessary, what about public toilets? I brought her into town a while back and she needed to go to the toilet as we were in Jervis St I brought her into the gents, so old guy gave me awful abuse over bringing her in. I simply told him to go f*&k himself, my daughter asked what he said, I told her he said she was a great girl. The only other option I had was to let her wet herself.

axer

Gillo wrote: »

I've brought my daughter in to changing rooms a number of time's it's a choice either I bring her in (don't make a fuss) get her changed and go for a swim or she doesn't get to go swimming. She six (sex in a few weeks) and know the difference between men and women. I wouldn't feel comfortable sending her off to the women's changing rooms by herself end off. It's a simple task take off clothes, put swimsuit on and do the reverse a hour later.

I don't think it's off topic, but mod's feel free to correct me if necessary, what about public toilets? I brought her into town a while back and she needed to go to the toilet as we were in Jervis St I brought her into the gents, so old guy gave me awful abuse over bringing her in. I simply told him to go f*&k himself, my daughter asked what he said, I told her he said she was a great girl. The only other option I had was to let her wet herself.

Exactly - she is a child ffs. Like you said in the dressing room you are there to get her changed and out swimming not to parade her naked or any of the other crap mentioned earlier.

You were right to tell that old c'unt to **** off. We were all children once.

Green Hornet

It's a common problem alright. Facilities (be it toilets or changing rooms) should provide a cubicle or two to allow parents to help their children dress/undress or go to the toilet. It wouldn't cost very much.

walshb

Green Hornet wrote: »

It's a common problem alright. Facilities (be it toilets or changing rooms) should provide a cubicle or two to allow parents to help their children dress/undress or go to the toilet. It wouldn't cost very much.

That's all I ever said. There should be facilities provided for parents to change their children. In a lot of gyms these facilities are not provided.

Stark

Tbh, it did annoy me when a guy brought his daughters into the men's changing rooms and showers in the NAC despite there being plenty of family changing cubicles available.

bridmwhite@gmai

walshb wrote: »

One scenario is adults mixing openly with adults where both have a choice and can or cannot consent

Have you ever tried to get a six year old girl to go somewhere she didn't want to go. The resultent tantrum would show you the true meaning of consent.

Talk about making a mountain out of nothing - you really need to examine your issues surrounding nudity. A few weeks in Northern Europe or Russia where being naked with friends, family and strangers alike while enjoying the sauna, banya, etc. might help alot with some of your issues.

Green Hornet

bridmwhite@gmai wrote: »

Have you ever tried to get a six year old girl to go somewhere she didn't want to go. The resultent tantrum would show you the true meaning of consent.

Talk about making a mountain out of nothing - you really need to examine your issues surrounding nudity. A few weeks in Northern Europe or Russia where being naked with friends, family and strangers alike while enjoying the sauna, banya, etc. might help alot with some of your issues.

I have no problem with nudity among adults. My issue pertains to young children, girls in particular, standing in the middle of a mens changing room with 20 naked men changing. And from the point of view of an adult I dont think I would be comfortable with my little daughter standing naked in a room full of men - 99.99% of who are well meaning but theres always the risk that a bad apple exists as well.

I just think a family room should be provided.

axer

Green Hornet wrote: »

I have no problem with nudity among adults. My issue pertains to young children, girls in particular, standing in the middle of a mens changing room with 20 naked men changing. And from the point of view of an adult I dont think I would be comfortable with my little daughter standing naked in a room full of men - 99.99% of who are well meaning but theres always the risk that a bad apple exists as well.

and what happens then? Is the child abused or harmed in any way? Is there any more risk of the child being harmed whilst changing with a parent in the Mens changing room than anywhere else? Will there be negative effects for a young girl seeing a man changing clothes?

walshb

bridmwhite@gmai wrote: »

Have you ever tried to get a six year old girl to go somewhere she didn't want to go. The resultent tantrum would show you the true meaning of consent.

Talk about making a mountain out of nothing - you really need to examine your issues surrounding nudity. A few weeks in Northern Europe or Russia where being naked with friends, family and strangers alike while enjoying the sauna, banya, etc. might help alot with some of your issues.

Have you ever tried to read one of my posts?

I have no issue with adults mixing openly naked in mens changing rooms!

Maybe if you read slowly and carefully you would understand this:rolleyes:

axer

walshb wrote: »

Have you ever tried to read one of my posts?

I have no issue with adults mixing openly naked in mens changing rooms!

Maybe if you read slowly and carefully you would understand this:rolleyes:

So how are young girls (or boys) negatively effected by changing in the mens changing room? Do you forsee psychological problems? Social Problems? Behaviour problems? or is it "just wrong"?

walshb

axer wrote: »

So how are young girls (or boys) negatively effected by changing in the mens changing room? Do you forsee psychological problems? Social Problems? Behaviour problems? or is it "just wrong"?

Read green hornets post above!

topper75

bridmwhite@gmai wrote: »

A few weeks in Northern Europe or Russia where being naked with friends, family and strangers alike while enjoying the sauna, banya, etc. might help alot with some of your issues.

Right - it is sorted then - one big changing room for everyone. (cheaper for the gyms too)

axer

walshb wrote: »

Read green hornets post above!

I did and that is why I asked

and what happens then? Is the child abused or harmed in any way? Is there any more risk of the child being harmed whilst changing with a parent in the Mens changing room than anywhere else? Will there be negative effects for a young girl seeing a man changing clothes?

to which I got no reply so maybe you can answer the questions.

walshb

axer wrote: »

I did and that is why I asked
to which I got no reply so maybe you can answer the questions.

The issue shouldn't focus on whether or not the child can be harmed. Harmed is very subjective. Physically harmed? That's open to debate and yes, it is a possibility in the gyms I have been in. Mentally or emotionally harmed, again, who knows. Either way, this isn't the real issue. The real issue is whether or not it is proper to allow young girls into mens changing areas WITHOUT providing proper changing facilities (cubicles), where parents have the choice to change their young girls in some privacy!

All I have said is this and I am done saying it now. No problem whatsoever with nudity and adults mixing openly; but when young children are involved, I think a certain discretion should be applied.