Etiquette - Young Girls In Mens Changing Rooms.

walshb · 04-09-2008 12:52pm

axer wrote: »

For your sake or theirs?

so have you an issue then with a father that disagrees with your opinion like delly seems to an issue with i.e. you wouldn't do it for your child but would you have problem with a father choosing to change his 5 year old daughter into swimgear in the mens changing room because he does not see the big deal or would you make a complaint or say it to the father?

Did you not read my post. I said I did see a problem and I said I thought it to be odd that a father would bring his daughter into a MALE changing area and have her change openly in full view of many men. You are getting my answer, but you do not seem to be digesting it:rolleyes:

BTW, I did speak to the gym involved and did check the legal stance on it and was told that
there is no law against it!

axer · 04-09-2008 1:29pm

delly wrote: »

Both, I wouldn't feel comfortable with it

Thats fair enough - you can't help how you feel even if it is illogical.

delly wrote: »

nor do I think the child should have to (unknowingly) endure it.

Why are you using the word "endure" if you cannot show how it negatively affects a child.

walshb wrote: »

Did you not read my post. I said I did see a problem and I said I thought it to be odd that a father would bring his daughter into a MALE changing area and have her change openly in full view of many men. You are getting my answer, but you do not seem to be digesting it:rolleyes:

I asked if you had an issue with it if the father did not see it as a problem in that does it affect you personally. Obviously it does affect you. I just think that is more your problem than the father or childs problem.

walshb wrote: »

BTW, I did speak to the gym involved and did check the legal stance on it and was told that
there is no law against it!

Then maybe you need to get on to your local TD to get the law changed or vote with your feet but just remember not everyone sees it as a big deal.

walshb · 04-09-2008 1:39pm

axer wrote: »

I asked if you had an issue with it if the father did not see it as a problem in that does it affect you personally. Obviously it does affect you. I just think that is more your problem than the father or childs problem.

Then maybe you need to get on to your local TD to get the law changed or vote with your feet but just remember not everyone sees it as a big deal.

Talk about stating the obvious.
Yes, it is my problem as some fathers do not see
the problem in bringing their young daughters into a male changing room, otherwise
they wouldn't do it. It's similar to the way some folks don't see a problem
in parking in disabled parking bays when not being disabled!

I did get on to a TD and was told that there was no law against it etc.

Yes, plenty see no problem with it, but also, plenty do see a problem with it.
I'm in one camp and you are in the other.

And yes, when I am showering and I look out of the showers and see
standing in front of me, two-three naked young girls just staring at me and
others in sort of bewilderment and confusion, it is a little odd and uncomfortable!

axer · 04-09-2008 1:42pm

walshb wrote: »

It's similar to the way some folks don't see a problem in parking in disabled parking bays when not being disabled!

Completely different since that is illegal under the Road Traffic Act 2002.

walshb · 04-09-2008 1:46pm

axer wrote: »

Completely different since that is illegal under the Road Traffic Act 2002.

I know, I know. I was just using it as an example of how some people find it OK to do this. And even if there was no law enacted for this and it was kind of like a courtesy arrangement, then there would still be people seeing no problem in it. It's not all about the LAW you know

Hey, there is no law against women drinking and smoking during pregnancy, however, I find it despicable!
You getting my drift?

axer · 04-09-2008 1:58pm

walshb wrote: »

Hey, there is no law against women drinking and smoking during pregnancy, however, I find it despicable!
You getting my drift?

Different again since there is evidence that shows it can be harmful to the developing foetus. You haven't shown me how it is harmful to the children to be changed in the mens changing room - maybe it is harmful to you to see it happen but it is not to me.

TarfHead · 04-09-2008 1:59pm

I haven't read the whole thread so I may be rehashing some points already made.

I have 2 children - 8yo boy & 6yo girl. For the last 4 years I have been taking them swimming in Total Fitness Coolock.

In the mens changing rooms, there are cubicles provided, but not restricted for use by families. In the same area there are lockers for general use.

What regularly annoys me is men using this area to change when there are families in the area and plenty of free lockers in the rest of the changing room. Furthermore some of them regularly enage in 'colourful' conversations standing b*ll*ck naked in front of my kids.

It's another example where if people don't have the cop to realise that their behaviour is inappropriate, they won't accept it when it is pointed out to them.

I have no major issue with my kids being in the presence of naked adults, but if there is a choice of stripping off in front of kids, or not, I would choose change elsewhere.

I have written to TF about this, but nothing has changed.

delly · 04-09-2008 2:07pm

axer wrote: »

Thats fair enough - you can't help how you feel even if it is illogical.

Now theres no need to brand my opinions sensless, just because they conflict with yours.

Just because I don't want to be in an environment where young naked girls are, I wouldn't class it as illogical. This is modern Ireland that has been burned my many peado scandals involving priests, swimcoaches and others. Its an unfortunate consequence that people can be accused of misbehaviour when none existed, the same way that if I see a lost girl in the shops, i'll get a shop worker or manager to try and find her parents, rather than hold her hand and bring her to the tillpoint. Can you imagine the first thing somebody would think if they came around the corner as you shepherded a child away? Its the same in a changing room, all it would take is for one father to think someone was looking at there child for an incident to occur. I know what i'd do in that situation if I thought someone was looking.

Why are you using the word "endure" if you cannot show how it negatively affects a child.

Well you can't show it doesn't, so were honours even on that point but my way ensures that there will be no ill effects, whereas yours can't.

walshb · 04-09-2008 2:07pm

TarfHead wrote: »

I haven't read the whole thread so I may be rehashing some points already made.

I have 2 children - 8yo boy & 6yo girl. For the last 4 years I have been taking them swimming in Total Fitness Coolock.

In the mens changing rooms, there are cubicles provided, but not restricted for use by families. In the same area there are lockers for general use.

What regularly annoys me is men using this area to change when there are families in the area and plenty of free lockers in the rest of the changing room. Furthermore some of them regularly enage in 'colourful' conversations standing b*ll*ck naked in front of my kids.

It's another example where if people don't have the cop to realise that their behaviour is inappropriate, they won't accept it when it is pointed out to them.

I have no major issue with my kids being in the presence of naked adults, but if there is a choice of stripping off in front of kids, or not, I would choose change elsewhere.

I have written to TF about this, but nothing has changed.

Couldn't agree with you more. It's all about manners and discretion, just in the childrens interest, that's all. Parents should behave in a manner respecting peoples opinions on this issue. I also got onto TF and after my complaint, they installed private cubicles, but still there were men who allowed their daughters a free reign in the changing area and didn't care who saw them or who they saw.

axer, regarding the harm to the children that you insist on bringing up; nobody can say how it will affect them, but there is potential harm and potential risk. There you have it.
We know you have no problem with the potential and liable possibility of perverts ogling
young girls in changing rooms or at worst, physically engaging with them. You see no risk, I do.....

And you think I have the problem, wow!

jim o doom · 04-09-2008 2:10pm

walshb wrote: »

Does anyone know of any legitimate cases of female pedophiles?

I know this is miles back, but - wasn't some school in Africa, which was run by Oprah Winfrey, recently involved in a massive scandal, where allegations of the female headmistress having sexually abused several girls in the school?

sorry it just popped into my head while reading through the thread..

Personally I am more comfortable when female children are not in the mens changing room : - I'm no prude, it just makes me feel vaguely uncomfortable!

walshb · 04-09-2008 2:12pm

jim o doom wrote: »

I know this is miles back, but - wasn't some school in Africa, which was run by Oprah Winfrey, recently involved in a massive scandal, where allegations of the female headmistress having sexually abused several girls in the school?

sorry it just popped into my head while reading through the thread..

Personally I am more comfortable when female children are not in the mens changing room : - I'm no prude, it just makes me feel vaguely uncomfortable!

Hey, I am sure it exists, but lets be quite honest, it is extremely rare and well behind the risks posed by men. That's just nature.....

And I agree, I too am personally more comfortable when young girls are NOT amongst men whilst changing!

Green Hornet · 04-09-2008 2:20pm

walshb wrote: »

Hey, I am sure it exists, but lets be quite honest, it is extremely rare and well behind the risks posed by men. That's just nature.....

And I agree, I too am personally more comfortable when young girls are NOT amongst men whilst changing!

+1

I'm the OP and I agree 100%.

hottstuff · 04-09-2008 2:25pm

Yes , it is wrong IMO.

Not allowing Young girls into mens changing rooms is the right thing to do to avoid any problems.
I agree that the same should be applied to the womens changing rooms , but there is definatley less risk involved there.

Iago · 04-09-2008 2:34pm

Up to a certain age 5-6 (max) I don't think there is any issue with a parent bringing their child into a different sex changing room if there are no other options available

I don't think there is any issue at all with a parent bringing their child into a same sex changing room regardless of whether or not there are other options available.

Some of the posters who are decrying this practice are also talking about young boys in a male changing room, or young girls in a female changing room and to me that's bizarre.

While I would be comfortable with a young girl being brought into a male changing room by her father to change, I would be circumspect about "letting it all hang out" ouf of courtesy. At the same time I can see why some people would be uncomfortable with this scenario, but I don't understand the same sex argument at all.

walshb · 04-09-2008 2:36pm

hottstuff wrote: »

Yes , it is wrong IMO.

Not allowing Young girls into mens changing rooms is the right thing to do to avoid any problems.
I agree that the same should be applied to the womens changing rooms , but there is definatley less risk involved there.

In the womens changing area, there is a hell of a difference and a hell of a lesser risk.
I see no problem with a woman bringing their young son into the changing area. However, after say 5 or 6, then it may be a little uncomfortable for some women to be changing.

walshb · 04-09-2008 2:39pm

Iago wrote: »

Up to a certain age 5-6 (max) I don't think there is any issue with a parent bringing their child into a different sex changing room if there are no other options available

I don't think there is any issue at all with a parent bringing their child into a same sex changing room regardless of whether or not there are other options available.

Some of the posters who are decrying this practice are also talking about young boys in a male changing room, or young girls in a female changing room and to me that's bizarre.

While I would be comfortable with a young girl being brought into a male changing room by her father to change, I would be circumspect about "letting it all hang out" ouf of courtesy. At the same time I can see why some people would be uncomfortable with this scenario, but I don't understand the same sex argument at all.

Well, the argument there is that young girls and young boys are very very alike in terms of their innocence etc and the only difference is their sex. So that's why I think it may be a problem for some that both sexes are allowed into the mens changing area. A young 4 or 5 year old boy in a male changing room is for some inappropriate. They are still too young and have no clue, just like a girl. They are not separated by a thing, apart from their sexual gender. And, there applies the same risk to a young boy in a male changing area as tp
a girl. Perverts do not discriminate on the basis of GENDER!

Iago · 04-09-2008 2:48pm

walshb wrote: »

A young 4 or 5 year old boy in a male changing room is for some inappropriate. They are still too young and have no clue, just like a girl. They are not separated by a thing, apart from their sexual gender. And, there applies the same risk to a young boy in a male changing area as to a girl. Perverts do not discriminate on the basis of GENDER!

Well that depends on your point of view I guess. I have a son, he's older now but I never had an issue bringing him into changing rooms or him being around the shower area after a match or whatever because there's nothing there that he doesn't have himself. In a lot of ways I felt it was important to show him that there's nothing to be ashamed of regarding the naked body, and that it was perfectly acceptable and normal for him to comfortable around others of his own sex when showering and changing etc.

With consideration to the threat of perverts, I think that's very much a parental control issue rather than anything else. If you supervise your child properly and ensure that you're with them then perverts won't be able to do anything to them (assuming that there are perverts present) Will they still be able to look? Sure, but they could be doing that at school, while your children are out playing, while they're taking part in team sports etc..The thing to remember is how impressionable children are, if you give them the indication, real or perceived, that there's an issue with them changing or showering in front of others then that can have significant impacts in later life in terms of their confidence and self-esteem.

I absolutely get the point about girls in male changing rooms and vice versa, although it doesn't make me uncomfortable I can see why some people would be.

jim o doom · 04-09-2008 3:05pm

My own full standpoint on this issue is that I don't see a problem for the children themselves, as they see no harm in it. I also think there is very little danger of abuse occurring, as it is nearly always busy in a changing room - abuse generally would be occurring where an adult has power over children away from the prying eyes of others (I know it's different where there is institutionalised abuse but thats a different story altogether),
The problem for me is that it's a mens changing rooms, and I personally feel uncomfortable if there are girls running around, regardless of age.. I know it sounds prudish and it's ridiculous in our modern world, but I am the result of my upbringing & I can't help how I feel about it.. pretty much sums it up!

DeepFriedFat · 28-08-2011 4:57pm

In my local swimming pool there is a large changing room full of cubicles and then you have the individual changing rooms with showers. the other day a man brought his daughter who looked about 5, and they went in the shower and all. sure they could just have changed together in one of the family cubicles and then showered when they got home? i made me feel very awkward when i went into the showers to shower. is it happens again i might have to have a word

UDP · 28-08-2011 7:17pm

DeepFriedFat wrote: »

In my local swimming pool there is a large changing room full of cubicles and then you have the individual changing rooms with showers. the other day a man brought his daughter who looked about 5, and they went in the shower and all. sure they could just have changed together in one of the family cubicles and then showered when they got home? i made me feel very awkward when i went into the showers to shower. is it happens again i might have to have a word

Why should you feel awkward? Its a 5 year old child.

Zulu · 29-08-2011 7:52am

You're digging up a 3 year old thread? Really??

JupiterKid · 29-08-2011 7:42pm

I've seen it occasionally at the pool where I swim and it doesn't really bother me. Family cubicles would be ideal for these situations but most swimming pools don't offer these.

Irish people have way too many hang ups and problems with nudity and it's not healthy.

Etiquette - Young Girls In Mens Changing Rooms.

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