FE1 Exam Thread (Read 1st post!) NOTE: YOU MAY SWAP EXAM GRIDS

Lawgrad101 · 07-10-2020 3:35pm

Has anyone ever received a script back and it’s been a different result to the one you were given on your results page?

maggie95 · 07-10-2020 3:37pm

FE12020Law wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for contacting our local TDs ? The pandemic has been with us for over 6 months and it's absolutely scandalous there was no plan B ready to go for November sittings. I think contacting local TDs and political parties might get this issue brought up in the Dáil?

lawgirl23 wrote: »

I’ve just this minute finished sending letters by email to all my local TDs!

Just did the same - no harm. At minimum will draw attention to the situation.

Fe1student1234 · 07-10-2020 3:39pm

Lawgrad101 wrote: »

Has anyone ever received a script back and it’s been a different result to the one you were given on your results page?

No

Sounds like the results page was wrong tbh

Lawlaw12 · 07-10-2020 3:42pm

Lawgrad101 wrote: »

Has anyone ever received a script back and it’s been a different result to the one you were given on your results page?

I received one where there are 2 grades on my script, one from the internal examiner and one from the external examiner (I believe the external examiner checks a random selection of the scripts).

But if the result on your results page was lower than that on your script then I'd say you should email them

CMUL · 07-10-2020 3:43pm

Its a good few years since my degree just wondering what did the universities do for the last semester exams due to COVID in UL, UCC Trinity etc. Were they all assignments based or open book online?

Fe1student1234 · 07-10-2020 3:48pm

CMUL wrote: »

Its a good few years since my degree just wondering what did the universities do for the last semester exams due to COVID in UL, UCC Trinity etc. Were they all assignments based or open book online?

My sister is in UCD - her law based ones were assignments

Her business/ accounting ones were online exams but open book

IgoPAP · 07-10-2020 3:50pm

They don't care. They never have.

Lauren1993 · 07-10-2020 3:52pm

Is there anything to be said for them to actually become assignment base? The level of work that goes into creating a, for example, 5000 word essay is huge.

I'm employed full time and so stressed about doing the exams online. I know that WFH has been very inconsistent with wifi and I dont know how I'd cope if my internet failed mid exam.

Lauren1993 · 07-10-2020 3:55pm

I also think if they put on online exams in less than 4 weeks time, that is completely inadequate time to prepare. I need to buy a laptop and get used to doing an exam online. I have housemates also and the environment isn't conducive to sitting an exam. I cannot travel to my home house because of covid restrictions - this is all horrific.

Can you rent office spaces for a couple of hours that are guaranteed to be quiet?

I think the law society need to come up with a better solution, this is completely inadequate.

Dliodoir2021 · 07-10-2020 4:00pm

I do grinds/proofreading for law students. NUIG and two ITs were assignments and even got contacted by teachers and solicitors doing LS diplomas. Not sure if LS had assignments/exams before covid though.

legallyginger · 07-10-2020 4:18pm

Fe1student1234 wrote: »

My sister is in UCD - her law based ones were assignments

Her business/ accounting ones were online exams but open book

My NUIG final exams consisted of being given the exam papers and a deadline to complete the exam, think it was 2 weeks can't really remember (obviously not viable for Fe1s) but they were just as tough as a normal exam and I only did marginally better after weeks of preparation than I did for closed book exams!I think the main issue was having such a period of time to do them you start questioning if you should have done another question...maybe a 12 hour deadline would be better if FE1s were to go like that!

Lauren1993 · 07-10-2020 4:25pm

legallyginger wrote: »

My NUIG final exams consisted of being given the exam papers and a deadline to complete the exam, think it was 2 weeks can't really remember (obviously not viable for Fe1s) but they were just as tough as a normal exam and I only did marginally better after weeks of preparation than I did for closed book exams!I think the main issue was having such a period of time to do them you start questioning if you should have done another question...maybe a 12 hour deadline would be better if FE1s were to go like that!

I think if they give us an exam paper and 12 to 24 hours to do it, that would be ideal. It would really help for those of us who are employed full time also. I just hope the exam "solution" is an untested online exam that crashes for half of us.

I feel like the LS dont understand the repercussions of failing these exams.

Lawlaw12 · 07-10-2020 4:32pm

Lauren1993 wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for them to actually become assignment base? The level of work that goes into creating a, for example, 5000 word essay is huge.

I'm employed full time and so stressed about doing the exams online. I know that WFH has been very inconsistent with wifi and I dont know how I'd cope if my internet failed mid exam.

That's true, an online exam isn't the fairest solution, and will disadvantage some people more than others due to lack of wifi, lack of good technology, living in a house where there are several other people WFH and not having a quiet space to sit an exam etc.

Although, I think an assignment based exam is so different than what we're used to for the FE1's, considering with that type of exam you are generally expected to reference academic articles etc. and produce 3000-5000 word answers. Whereas usually with the FE1's the focus is concise to the point answers that can be produced in 35 mins, for instance if you've done a prep course they really focus on getting you prepared to produce a good concise answer in around 30 mins. I feel like I would need to make a whole new set of notes if it were to be changed to an assignment based exam, as I have condensed my notes and cut out a lot of useful material, and I no longer have access to the likes of Justis and other sources of academic articles etc.

I know of some colleges abroad where they email you the exam and then you do it at home and email back your answers after like 5-6 hours. I know that wouldn't be ideal either, but at least then we wouldn't need wifi access for the whole exam just to receive the exam paper and to email it back later that day. As the wifi situation would be a big worry if we need strong wifi for remote invigilation of the whole exam.

FE1new · 07-10-2020 4:32pm

legallyginger wrote: »

My NUIG final exams consisted of being given the exam papers and a deadline to complete the exam, think it was 2 weeks can't really remember (obviously not viable for Fe1s) but they were just as tough as a normal exam and I only did marginally better after weeks of preparation than I did for closed book exams!I think the main issue was having such a period of time to do them you start questioning if you should have done another question...maybe a 12 hour deadline would be better if FE1s were to go like that!

My exams were the same time of 3hrs and were open book. We logged onto Zoom, we could type or write them and upload the scans. The paper was made available on Moodle 15 mins before the exams. Once the time was up we had 45 mins to upload the documents or scans to Moodle and the typed ones were run through Turnitin to check for plagiarism. They were just as hard as closed book. You had no time to check notes really.

But we had notice from 20 March that this would be the case.

rebuke · 07-10-2020 5:03pm

FE1new wrote: »

My exams were the same time of 3hrs and were open book. We logged onto Zoom, we could type or write them and upload the scans. The paper was made available on Moodle 15 mins before the exams. Once the time was up we had 45 mins to upload the documents or scans to Moodle and the typed ones were run through Turnitin to check for plagiarism. They were just as hard as closed book. You had no time to check notes really.

But we had notice from 20 March that this would be the case.

I just don't see how something like that would be practical or feasible. Would also completely prejudice students, not to mention the fact that it is a completely different styled exam.

The majority of applicants would no longer have access to online databases like WestLaw etc., nor would they have access to college libraries for books, so I think to change to an academic essay style exam at such notice would not be fair.

dobby896 · 07-10-2020 5:19pm

At this rate I wouldn't care if they told us we had to write the exam in Egyptian Caligraphy so long as it meant we had a timetable

emily987 · 07-10-2020 5:24pm

UCC's final year exams were online, same structure as previous years, same amount of time plus an extra half hour for uploading answers. They were not invigilated but as previous posters have said you don't have time to consult notes anyway.

The law society should consider this approach

Fe1student304 · 07-10-2020 6:08pm

SAMPLE EMAIL TO TDs:

Dear Deputy,

I am contacting you regarding the erroneous treatment of candidates sitting the Law Society of Ireland Final Entrance Examinations (FE-1s).

The FE-1s take place in March and October annually. Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, these exams were cancelled and postponed respectively.

Two examinations were cancelled in March and rescheduled for August. This resulted in the announcement of the October sitting in September giving students only four weeks to prepare.

The Law Society of Ireland then rescheduled the October sitting for the first week in November due to level three restrictions in Dublin.

This week, the Law Society finally conceded that these exams could not take place physically and announced their intention to hold online examinations in the first week of November.

With under four weeks to the proposed date of the exams, they have failed to provide candidates with any timetable or information surrounding how such exams would take place. The absence of communication from the Law Society has created undue stress to candidates who have insufficient time to prepare and those who must inform their employers and take annual leave.

We have now been living with COVID-19 for over six months. We have all adapted and overcame this challenge so far. All higher education institutions have rose to the challenge and facilitate students online. However, the Law Society continue to blatantly disregard the welfare of the future of their profession.

I ask that you write to the Law Society of Ireland and Ministers for Higher Education and Justice on my behalf to request adequate notice for these exams.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

[name]

07-10-2020 6:21pm

Send them to this thread to see the stress and frustration expressed by dozens of us!

Law20213 · 07-10-2020 6:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Send them to this thread to see the stress and frustration expressed by dozens of us!

Phone call to Joe Duffy as well, although unless your doing the exams yourself public interest would be low

ScatmanWhack · 07-10-2020 6:47pm

I'm not convinced these exams will go ahead until the country returns to Level 2. It's been posted in this thread that LS have said they don't have anything lined up and they have clearly just given themselves until early next week to find a provider for online exams. They already stated last month that online FE1s can't be catered for, so this is just an act of desperation on their part.

My money is on them announcing next week that the exams are postponed indefinitely until a physical sitting can take place. We'll all have been taken for a ride this whole week.

IgoPAP · 07-10-2020 6:56pm

ScatmanWhack wrote: »

I'm not convinced these exams will go ahead until the country returns to Level 2. It's been posted in this thread that LS have said they don't have anything lined up and they have clearly just given themselves until early next week to find a provider for online exams. They already stated last month that online FE1s can't be catered for, so this is just an act of desperation on their part.

My money is on them announcing next week that the exams are postponed indefinitely until a physical sitting can take place. We'll all have been taken for a ride this whole week.

All the more evidence that automatic passes should be given to candidates that have completed those subjects at undergraduate level.

If we're to "wait until Level 2", we could we be waiting until the next sitting in March altogether.

Dliodoir2021 · 07-10-2020 7:06pm

IgoPAP wrote: »

All the more evidence that automatic passes should be given to candidates that have completed those subjects at undergraduate level.

If we're to "wait until Level 2", we could we be waiting until the next sitting in March altogether.

Is it fair to compare a student getting a 1.1 in a Level 7 IT course, to someone passing by compensation at Level 8 university? Different standards.

lawgirl23 · 07-10-2020 7:07pm

ScatmanWhack wrote: »

I'm not convinced these exams will go ahead until the country returns to Level 2. It's been posted in this thread that LS have said they don't have anything lined up and they have clearly just given themselves until early next week to find a provider for online exams. They already stated last month that online FE1s can't be catered for, so this is just an act of desperation on their part.

My money is on them announcing next week that the exams are postponed indefinitely until a physical sitting can take place. We'll all have been taken for a ride this whole week.

Honestly wouldn’t fall off my seat if that happens. At this stage I’ve come to expect the least expected with the Law Society!

Fe1student1234 · 07-10-2020 7:07pm

Dliodoir2021 wrote: »

Is it fair to compare a student getting a 1.1 in a Level 7 IT course, to someone passing by compensation at Level 8 university? Different standards.

Are you saying that’s not comparable ? I’d be of the opposite opinion tbh

shaunadennyham · 07-10-2020 7:20pm

Fe1student1234 wrote: »

Are you saying that’s not comparable ? I’d be of the opposite opinion tbh

Well obviously they’re not comparable. They should award exemptions to candidates who have attained a pass in the subject from a BCL/LLB degree or at postgraduate level. Same way that you’re exempt from Jurisprudence for the Kings Inns if you’ve done it at undergrad/postgraduate level.

Fe1student1234 · 07-10-2020 7:22pm

shaunadennyham wrote: »

Well obviously they’re not comparable. They should award exemptions to candidates who have attained a pass in the subject from a BCL/LLB degree or at postgraduate level. Same way that you’re exempt from Jurisprudence for the Kings Inns if you’ve done it at undergrad/postgraduate level.

I agree but I think the posters argument was that undergrad and fe-1s are different standards so therefore no exemptions should be given

I may have picked up on it wrong tho

shaunadennyham · 07-10-2020 7:23pm

Fe1student1234 wrote: »

I agree but I think the posters argument was that undergrad and fe-1s are different standards so therefore no exemptions should be given

I may have picked up on it wrong tho

No I think they were asking if level 7 and level 8 courses are comparable which they obviously aren’t

Law20213 · 07-10-2020 7:50pm

I’ve had a power outage for the last hour and bit, it’s the third time in 3 weeks none of it planned so online FE1 exams and slow internet speed combined will be nightmare!

Lawlaw12 · 07-10-2020 7:51pm

Tbh even if the FE1s aren't necessarily comparable to level 8 university exams, at the end of the day these are totally unprecedented times, every other body has managed to adapt in terms of examinations and as a previous poster pointed out they have adapted in a way that allows the advantage to fall to the student. We are all having a tough time during the pandemic whether sitting these exams or not, and that needs to be taken into consideration.

My biggest frustration is the fact that these exams actually mean nothing in terms of our career, it's not like they give us any sort of qualification. The majority of us already have a law degree and we will all still have to undergo a few years of training before qualifying as a solicitor.

Back in March I'm sure we all thought sure they can't just not hold the leaving cert this year, that's a crazy suggestion. But the Dept of Education managed to come up with a system to match these unprecedented times and they did so dealing with over 60,000 students. How are the law society not willing to grant exemptions based on undergraduate exams when there are only 2000 of us, and it's clearly a once off situation. The Leaving Cert directly effects what students get to study in college and what career path they pursue, so why can the LS not do something similar for the FE1s when the only 'qualification' they give you is to allow you to enter a training contract where you will still be studying and examined over the next few years.

ruby1998 · 07-10-2020 8:00pm

Staring at my notes here the last hour but my mind only wants to think about whether the exams will be on, in what form, when, will we get an exemption, no hardly there’s less than a month now focus, nah f*ck it and repeat

this is fine

Fe1student1234 · 07-10-2020 8:00pm

Lawlaw12 wrote: »

Tbh even if the FE1s aren't necessarily comparable to level 8 university exams, at the end of the day these are totally unprecedented times, every other body has managed to adapt in terms of examinations and as a previous poster pointed out they have adapted in a way that allows the advantage to fall to the student. We are all having a tough time during the pandemic whether sitting these exams or not, and that needs to be taken into consideration.

My biggest frustration is the fact that these exams actually mean nothing in terms of our career, it's not like they give us any sort of qualification. The majority of us already have a law degree and we will all still have to undergo a few years of training before qualifying as a solicitor.

Back in March I'm sure we all thought sure they can't just not hold the leaving cert this year, that's a crazy suggestion. But the Dept of Education managed to come up with a system to match these unprecedented times and they did so dealing with over 60,000 students. How are the law society not willing to grant exemptions based on undergraduate exams when there are only 2000 of us, and it's clearly a once off situation. The Leaving Cert directly effects what students get to study in college and what career path they pursue, so why can the LS not do something similar for the FE1s when the only 'qualification' they give you is to allow you to enter a training contract where you will still be studying and examined over the next few years.

I know that’s what really annoys me also about the FE-1s they don’t get you anywhere other than you can now enter blackhall and train/study for a further two years

In accounting if you’ve passed certain subjects you completely skip the CAP1 exams and go straight to CAP2
If your undergrad is comparable to cap 1 I don’t see how undergrad is not comparable to fE-1s

If they can’t organize fair online sittings they will have to think of something we can’t be sitting and waiting to be able to further our careers

shaunadennyham · 07-10-2020 8:10pm

Lawlaw12 wrote: »

Tbh even if the FE1s aren't necessarily comparable to level 8 university exams, at the end of the day these are totally unprecedented times, every other body has managed to adapt in terms of examinations and as a previous poster pointed out they have adapted in a way that allows the advantage to fall to the student. We are all having a tough time during the pandemic whether sitting these exams or not, and that needs to be taken into consideration.

My biggest frustration is the fact that these exams actually mean nothing in terms of our career, it's not like they give us any sort of qualification. The majority of us already have a law degree and we will all still have to undergo a few years of training before qualifying as a solicitor.

Back in March I'm sure we all thought sure they can't just not hold the leaving cert this year, that's a crazy suggestion. But the Dept of Education managed to come up with a system to match these unprecedented times and they did so dealing with over 60,000 students. How are the law society not willing to grant exemptions based on undergraduate exams when there are only 2000 of us, and it's clearly a once off situation. The Leaving Cert directly effects what students get to study in college and what career path they pursue, so why can the LS not do something similar for the FE1s when the only 'qualification' they give you is to allow you to enter a training contract where you will still be studying and examined over the next few years.

Well having done a level 8 LLB I can say they are definitely comparable. If they weren’t then the exemptions would never have existed in the first place. The subject matter is the same.

rebuke · 07-10-2020 8:33pm

shaunadennyham wrote: »

Well having done a level 8 LLB I can say they are definitely comparable. If they weren’t then the exemptions would never have existed in the first place. The subject matter is the same.

Exactly, so too is the structure. The majority of us will have also previously done an end of semester exam under one of the FE1 examiners as well!

JohnsKite · 07-10-2020 8:45pm

Exemptions mightn't be as easy to provide as people think. First there's the many people who didn't do a law course. Second the grades from college probably vary wildly based on the year you took the exams, and could affect contract chances; for example, I did constitution in second year, was still figuring out how the exams worked, and only got 40%, that can't compared to the firsts I got in third when I knew how to play the game.

JohnsKite · 07-10-2020 8:45pm

Exemptions mightn't be as easy to provide as people think. First there's the many people who didn't do a law course. Second the grades from college probably vary wildly based on the year you took the exams, and could affect contract chances; for example, I did constitution in second year, was still figuring out how the exams worked, and only got 40%, that can't compared to the firsts I got in third when I knew how to play the game.

IgoPAP · 07-10-2020 8:49pm

It's important to recognise that there is literally no purpose of the Fe-1 exam.

This is admittedly a difficult pill to swallow. It doesn't make you a better practitioner, it's not some type of "quality control" (unless the Law Society want to argue that the thousands of solicitors that received exemptions before the ruling are totally incompetent), the UK doesn't have this requirement either.

The only reason the Fe-1s even exist is so that the Law Society can squeeze every single cent out of you as much as possible and create a bottleneck into the profession. Its intentional and calculated.

shaunadennyham · 07-10-2020 8:51pm

JohnsKite wrote: »

Exemptions mightn't be as easy to provide as people think. First there's the many people who didn't do a law course. Second the grades from college probably vary wildly based on the year you took the exams, and could affect contract chances; for example, I did constitution in second year, was still figuring out how the exams worked, and only got 40%, that can't compared to the firsts I got in third when I knew how to play the game.

Well I personally think they should do online open book exams

but the kings inns were closed book online so I assume we’ll be the same

IgoPAP · 07-10-2020 8:52pm

JohnsKite wrote: »

Exemptions mightn't be as easy to provide as people think. First there's the many people who didn't do a law course. Second the grades from college probably vary wildly based on the year you took the exams, and could affect contract chances; for example, I did constitution in second year, was still figuring out how the exams worked, and only got 40%, that can't compared to the firsts I got in third when I knew how to play the game.

The arguments you've put forward are weak.

First, If you didn't do a law course or the particular law module in question you shouldn't get an exemption. There's nothing unfair about that.

Second, it can be predicated on achieving at least a 2.2 in that particular subject from a qualifying law programme as set out of by the Law Society. I'm not even sure what you mean by "knowing how to play the game". If you haven't managed a bare minimum of 50% in a subject in college then you don't get that exemption.

Fe1student1234 · 07-10-2020 8:55pm

IgoPAP wrote: »

The arguments you've put forward are weak.

First, If you didn't do a law course or the particular law module in question you shouldn't get an exemption. There's nothing unfair about that.

Second, it can be predicated on achieving at least a 2.2 in that particular subject from a qualifying law programme as set out of by the Law Society. I'm not even sure what you mean by "knowing how to play the game". If you haven't managed a bare minimum of 50% in a subject in college then you don't get that exemption.

Well tbf a 40% is a pass in college

IgoPAP · 07-10-2020 9:00pm

Fe1student1234 wrote: »

Well tbf a 40% is a pass in college

I was going to say 2.1!

I think if the Law Society eventually do decide to allow exemptions again it would be based on that. I've heard firms like A&l Goodbody were trying to lobby the LS into removing the Fe-1's because some of their potential trainees decided to go train in London because they didn't want to spend a year and a half on the Fe-1's.

Fe1student1234 · 07-10-2020 9:01pm

IgoPAP wrote: »

I was going to say 2.1!

I think if the Law Society eventually do decide to allow exemptions again it would be based on that. I've heard firms like A&l Goodbody were trying to lobby the LS into removing the Fe-1's because some of their potential trainees decided to go train in London because they didn't want to spend a year and a half on the Fe-1's.

I was thinking of doing it myself although the rules have now changed in England

IgoPAP · 07-10-2020 9:02pm

Fe1student1234 wrote: »

I was thinking of doing it myself although the rules have now changed in England

What do you mean?

Fe1student1234 · 07-10-2020 9:10pm

IgoPAP wrote: »

What do you mean?

I was told they’re changing their rules in relation to qualified law degrees to go straight into he LPC

If you don’t qualify you have to do the GDL

LawExams 2020 · 07-10-2020 9:19pm

Fe1student1234 wrote: »

I was told they’re changing their rules in relation to qualified law degrees to go straight into he LPC

If you don’t qualify you have to do the GDL

The SQE doesn't come into effect until Sept 2021 (if at all, lot of opposition to it). Was looking into it myself. At the rate the Law Soc is going, we might be faster qualifying over there!

Fe1student1234 · 07-10-2020 9:21pm

LawExams 2020 wrote: »

The SQE doesn't come into effect until Sept 2021 (if at all, lot of opposition to it). Was looking into it myself. At the rate the Law Soc is going, we might be faster qualifying over there!

Ah haha if I had looked into more I would have studied English public law - is stil have to do the gdl in that exam

Lallers96 · 07-10-2020 9:26pm

I can't speak from an objective standpoint but I will try and chime in about the talk of exemptions.

I was a poor student in my first few years in college and while I did pass Tort, Constitutional, Contract, Company, and EU - I only achieved the 50+ mark in 1 of those if I recall correctly, as I was dealing with a lot in my first two years in college between the loss of 3 of my cousins and financial difficulties at the time. Sure these are excuses but I simply could not apply myself at the tender age of 18 with all of that on my plate, as I can now at almost 24. I'm practically a different person.

So to reject me for exemptions for passing a subject as far back as 2015 at college lvl 8, but not get the 50% grade that I did not know of back then required for the FE-1s, seems harsh. Again, I know im speaking from a biased position but I just feel that is very harsh.

Also the idea of exemptions will just cause chaos because where do you draw the line? As someone pointed out, getting 50% in a lvl 6 or 7 course in an IT is drastically easier than a lvl 8 in a university. I'm not trying to come across as stuck up but someone doing Arts in NUIG sat a much easier exam than I did for Tort, Constitutional, and Contract law.

All of this talk just makes it seem utterly pointless getting a 4 year law degree only to find out it takes another year or two to pass exams you've already passed.

If I had the choice I think open book online exams is the way to go.

LawExams 2020 · 07-10-2020 9:26pm

Fe1student1234 wrote: »

Ah haha if I had looked into more I would have studied English public law - is stil have to do the gdl in that exam

Obstacles every which way!

With any luck the Law Soc will come through and we can still pull things off for 2020. One lives in hope!

LawStudent999 · 07-10-2020 9:33pm

With all this talk of exemptions, first, I personally see no scenario in which exemptions will come into play as I can’t imagine this is a precedent the LS will want to set to begin with.

Secondly, if in any reality exemptions are given, I can imagine that they will be done so across the board for each and every person registered to sit the exams. While I have seen speculation that your previous merits would dictate your entitlement to an exemption, the fact of the matter is that with respect to this set of exams, all registered must be given the benefit of the doubt that they have all put in the work required for the sittings.

Even if for example another candidate sat these exams not having passed any previous law modules relating to the FE1’s, there really is nothing to go by that they haven’t put in an equal amount of work for this exam as another candidate.

For that reason I would say it’s wasted breath wondering what threshold one would have to meet to be granted a supposed exemption.

maggie95 · 07-10-2020 10:02pm

Did anyone else see the Law Society's Facebook post earlier:
"How we communicate with each other matters"

I'm in stitches.

92QXyh3

FE1 Exam Thread (Read 1st post!) NOTE: YOU MAY SWAP EXAM GRIDS

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