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The UK response - Part II - read OP

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,789 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Aegir wrote: »
    Seems like they have links to Labour as well:



    And their head of education advised Labour when they were in government



    Looks like they have a quite a bit of experience when it comes to education:



    But OMG DOMINIC CUMMINGS


    I think it says a lot in a post about contracts for contacts your response is to show that people at the company is linked with Labour. This isn't a partisan issue. This is a, "how stupid does the UK government think its voters are if they think they can get away with it" issue. And judging by your and theological's rush to always defend no matter what, the answer seems obvious.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Enzokk wrote: »
    I think it says a lot in a post about contracts for contacts your response is to show that people at the company is linked with Labour. This isn't a partisan issue. This is a, "how stupid does the UK government think its voters are if they think they can get away with it" issue. And judging by your and theological's rush to always defend no matter what, the answer seems obvious.

    Well, I guess a headline of “ofqual gives contract to company with links to Stonewall, Labour and New Schools Network would make pretty ****ty headlines.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Dave0301


    Aegir wrote: »
    Well, I guess a headline of “ofqual gives contract to company with links to Stonewall, Labour and New Schools Network would make pretty ****ty headlines.

    But does the fact that it was the 3rd contract awarded without public tender to a company that has close links to Cummings and prominent Tories not ring alarm bells? Particularly as this contract had more than enough time to go through a tender process as exams were cancelled very early on.

    It has been pointed out here many times that contracts may need to be awarded at short notice given the circumstances. However, the fact they are being awarded to associates of the current cabinet is not a great look. Now, it all may well be a coincidence; just like the drive to Barnard Castle being a useful and convenient eye test, but I remain skeptical.

    I don't care who has links to what party to be honest. What I want to know is that my taxes are going towards a worthwhile investment, where some thought and competitive process have been applied. I can't say for certain that has happened with a number of investments in the last year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Do people here do even a cursory bit of investigation before they post stuff. 5 minutes digging would unearth the following about ex labour mp Natascha Engel.

    A staunchly pro-fracking mp, even though labour policy is strictly anti fracking.

    After losing her seat, she gets a job with Ineos, one of the UKs most prominent fracking companies.

    In October 2018, she is appointed by Theresa May as the governments Shale Commissioner.

    After a year steeped in controversy, she resigns from her post, giving the exclusive to the Mail. In July, 2019 she starts work for Public First, one of whose founders wrote the tory election manifesto.

    And Public First which lobbies for Cuadrilla and other fracking companies.

    Natascha Engel was Labour in the same way you'd say Donald Trump was once a democrat. Ultimately they both found their rightful kin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,789 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Aegir wrote: »
    Well, I guess a headline of “ofqual gives contract to company with links to Stonewall, Labour and New Schools Network would make pretty ****ty headlines.


    It would because it is rubbish. You really are scraping the barrel for witty replies on this and if this is the best you can do to avoid admitting what is happening is a shambles.


    Seems like cases is on the rise in the UK,

    Lockdown fears for Birmingham amid sharp rise in UK coronavirus cases
    Police and officials in Birmingham have warned the public to act now to avert a city-wide lockdown as the number of people testing positive for coronavirus in England rose 27% in a week, hitting its highest level since mid-June.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Enzokk wrote: »
    It would because it is rubbish. You really are scraping the barrel for witty replies on this and if this is the best you can do to avoid admitting what is happening is a shambles

    Which bit is rubbish?

    Appointed by Ofqual - check
    One partner is an ex Labour MP - check
    One Director worked for Stonewall - check
    One Director worked for New Schools Network - check.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    But does the fact that it was the 3rd contract awarded without public tender to a company that has close links to Cummings and prominent Tories not ring alarm bells? Particularly as this contract had more than enough time to go through a tender process as exams were cancelled very early on.

    It has been pointed out here many times that contracts may need to be awarded at short notice given the circumstances. However, the fact they are being awarded to associates of the current cabinet is not a great look. Now, it all may well be a coincidence; just like the drive to Barnard Castle being a useful and convenient eye test, but I remain skeptical.

    I don't care who has links to what party to be honest. What I want to know is that my taxes are going towards a worthwhile investment, where some thought and competitive process have been applied. I can't say for certain that has happened with a number of investments in the last year.

    Not all contracts require a tender and not all contracts are awarded by the government. Ofqual is a quango that although governed by government procurement guidelines, can work with any company they like.

    There has been a concerning contract give to Public First that was classed as Covid related, but was actually about Brexit. In this instance though, I have no doubt that it is a genuine piece of consultancy that is fully above board.

    Of course, the Guardian and Open Democracy dont care about that, it just gives them a tenuous excuse to shout OMG CUMMINGS.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,688 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Aegir wrote: »
    Which bit is rubbish?

    Appointed by Ofqual - check
    One partner is an ex Labour MP - check
    One Director worked for Stonewall - check
    One Director worked for New Schools Network - check.
    I'm not sure this helps. We have a consultancy that ensures that it has personal and social links with politicians from both major parties so that, no matter who is power, they have connections they can exploit to get public money? Systemic corruption is OK as long as its pervasively systemic?

    The fact that this outfit also has links with Labour is very far from suggsting that the award of this contract was not corrupt. On the contrary, if anything it tends to reinforce the suspicion that it was.

    And those suspicions are particularly damaging when they arise in relation to a government headed by an openly dishonest old Etonian who is known to value loyalty and biddability over comptence and integrity. We fear that such a government will be corrupt, and then we see it awarding contracts to entrprises apparently set up to cultivate networks with political parties. What are we supposed to think?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Just to be clear, Natascha Engel, ex Labour mp, was not headhunted by Public First because they were keen to have different political views on board, or because they specifically wanted to have a labour presence or something, she was hired because she was a staunch pro fracking activist and Public First is a pro fracking lobby group. It is that simple.

    In 2018, as government tsar for fracking, Engel had a series of meetings with Cuadrilla and other fracking firms. After her resignation, it was revealed that she had tried to delete all her emails in relation to this correspondence. One email showed that Cuadrilla was prepping her for broadcast appearances. Cuadrilla is represented by Public First.

    https://drillordrop.com/tag/natascha-engel/

    After losing her seat Engel was also involved with TWC, a pro Israeli and pro tory consultancy/think tank. TWC was involved in those illicit meetings Priti Patel had during government trips to Israel as international development secretary. Even Kate Hoey had better labour credentials than Engel in the end, quite frankly.

    The facts are Public First is a dyed in the wool tory vehicle driven by dyed in the wool tory lifers who have been trading on their connections ever since the tories returned to power. James Frayne has been a close pal of Dom Cummings for nigh on 20 years. One of Rachel Wolfs first jobs in politics was working for Boris Johnson. They co-wrote the tory 2019 election manifesto for pitys sake.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Admittedly I don't care hugely about this stuff. I care about the virus and how the UK is doing. KCL figures (the largest study we have on this) is showing an R of 0.9 and under 20,000 cases of symptomatic coronavirus for the first time. It is doing much better than many other countries in Europe on that level.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The facts are Public First is a dyed in the wool tory vehicle driven by dyed in the wool tory lifers who have been trading on their connections ever since the tories returned to power. James Frayne has been a close pal of Dom Cummings for nigh on 20 years. One of Rachel Wolfs first jobs in politics was working for Boris Johnson. They co-wrote the tory 2019 election manifesto for pitys sake.

    that can't be a fact, you didn't write it in capitals :rolleyes:

    Public First are a policy research company that do work for wide range of organisations, hence the diverse range of backgrounds and experience among their leadership team.

    but but but DOMINIC CUMMINGS


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Admittedly I don't care hugely about this stuff. I care about the virus and how the UK is doing. KCL figures (the largest study we have on this) is showing an R of 0.9 and under 20,000 cases of symptomatic coronavirus for the first time. It is doing much better than many other countries in Europe on that level.

    it would be a lot better if Simon Coveney's brother hadn't let 300 people get infected in one of his factories.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/20/firm-linked-to-gove-and-cummings-hired-to-work-with-ofqual-on-a-levels


    Quote: "It is the third batch of work Public First is known to have secured from the government in recent months without having to bid for a public tender."

    But, of course, we are told all that is perfectly all fine and dandy because we are in the midst of an unprecedented crisis and that is just what you have to do. Would never ever have happened otherwise.

    Quote:
    "In 2011 Frayne was appointed the Department for Education’s director of communications when Gove was education secretary and Cummings was his chief political adviser.

    "At that time Wolf was running the New Schools Network (NSN), which promoted Gove’s flagship policy of establishing “free schools,” and was awarded a £500,000 contract by the Department for Education without a tender. That contract was justified on the basis that the NSN was the only organisation able to provide expert support quickly enough."

    Question for Aegir:

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you wrote a couple of pages back that the current contract in question wasnt related to Covid. So on what basis then, should it not have gone out to tender?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,789 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Admittedly I don't care hugely about this stuff. I care about the virus and how the UK is doing. KCL figures (the largest study we have on this) is showing an R of 0.9 and under 20,000 cases of symptomatic coronavirus for the first time. It is doing much better than many other countries in Europe on that level.


    You should care. This is bigger than their handling of the pandemic, because it has now been shown there is no consequences for incompetence. The same incompetent government that is spaffing millions away on contracts that doesn't go to tender is now using the pandemic as an excuse to award contracts without tenders in areas not directly related to the pandemic.

    They are also trying to limit the judicial review because why do you want the courts ruling that you illegally prorogued parliament or that your awarding of contracts without tender was illegal?

    And for Aegir who likes to bring up comparisons with Ireland whenever there is something happening in the UK we comment on, this is how those in positions of power act when they have been found to have acted against their own guidance they expect the public to follow,

    Buttimer, Calleary resign over attending Clifden event
    Minister for Agriculture Dara Calleary and Seanad Leas-Cathaoirleach Jerry Buttimer have both resigned from their positions after they attended an event in Clifden, Co Galway, on Wednesday where 81 people were present.

    They were both guests at an Oireachtas Golf Society event, which was held in a hotel.

    Taoiseach Micheál Martin has accepted Mr Calleary's resignation from Cabinet.

    Mr Calleary said the Taoiseach is "both angry and disappointed" in him and he had let him and his colleagues in Government down, "so he is entitled to be angry and disappointed and they are all entitled to that anger and disappointment".

    Speaking on Midwest Radio, the former Agriculture Minister acknowledged that he had caused unintentional damage to the work done by frontline and public health workers and their families.

    It is a privilege to be elected and to work in government, not a right. When you screw up or someone in your department screws up you are responsible. That is how things normally works, but not in the UK right now.

    I will save Aegir the time to reply...something something Labour, something Guardian outrage, something DOMINIC CUMMINGS!


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Enzokk wrote: »
    You should care. This is bigger than their handling of the pandemic, because it has now been shown there is no consequences for incompetence. The same incompetent government that is spaffing millions away on contracts that doesn't go to tender is now using the pandemic as an excuse to award contracts without tenders in areas not directly related to the pandemic.

    They are also trying to limit the judicial review because why do you want the courts ruling that you illegally prorogued parliament or that your awarding of contracts without tender was illegal?

    And for Aegir who likes to bring up comparisons with Ireland whenever there is something happening in the UK we comment on, this is how those in positions of power act when they have been found to have acted against their own guidance they expect the public to follow,

    Buttimer, Calleary resign over attending Clifden event



    It is a privilege to be elected and to work in government, not a right. When you screw up or someone in your department screws up you are responsible. That is how things normally works, but not in the UK right now.

    I will save Aegir the time to reply...something something Labour, something Guardian outrage, something DOMINIC CUMMINGS!

    you are getting very animated over something that doesn't affect you Enzo. you need to calm down a bit.

    Things are really bad when were holding the Irish government up as a way to do things :rolleyes: I have already said Cummings should have resigned and that questions need to be asked over previous contracts. In this instance, I don't believe there is any worng doing. The cabinet do not have a say over who Ofqual engage to do research for them.

    What these shock and outrage attacks do though, is damage otherwise good work. What next, we start demanding New Schools Network be closed because it is linked to Michael Gove who is linked to Dominc Cummings?

    Is this just the toxic left trying to burn everything down still, because they lost the last election in spectacular fashion? Are they still smarting because Jeremy Corbyn was rejected by his own party I wonder?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,789 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Aegir wrote: »
    you are getting very animated over something that doesn't affect you Enzo. you need to calm down a bit.

    Been there, usually when there isn't something good to say you tell a poster how to calm down.

    Aegir wrote: »
    Things are really bad when were holding the Irish government up as a way to do things :rolleyes: I have already said Cummings should have resigned and that questions need to be asked over previous contracts. In this instance, I don't believe there is any worng doing. The cabinet do not have a say over who Ofqual engage to do research for them.

    Compared to the UK the Irish Government has excelled the past 5 years. We haven't left the most integrated trading block and will be imposing trade barriers on ourselves during the worst pandemic in more than 100 years and the worst recession that will follow it.

    So not sure why you are trying to imply that the UK government has been better than ours here if a comparison is something to roll your eyes over.

    As for wrongdoing, we will not know if there was any if there isn't an investigation. Not just questions asked, which we are highlighting but you are dismissing based on your belief, but proper scrutiny. But the government is trying to weaken these oversights by limiting judicial reviews. That is definitely something one does when you have nothing to hide.;)

    Aegir wrote: »
    What these shock and outrage attacks do though, is damage otherwise good work. What next, we start demanding New Schools Network be closed because it is linked to Michael Gove who is linked to Dominc Cummings?

    Well if they are receiving contracts because of contacts without tender, then yes. I mean they were quick to close PHE when a scapegoat was needed other than the Health Minister or PM. If New Schools Network has to be axed to ensure the survival of Gavin Williamson then it is a sacrifice he will surely be willing to make.

    Aegir wrote: »
    Is this just the toxic left trying to burn everything down still, because they lost the last election in spectacular fashion? Are they still smarting because Jeremy Corbyn was rejected by his own party I wonder?


    Always bringing it back to Labour and the left. You really try to make this a partisan issue when it shouldn't be. If all else fails try to make it about Conservative vs Labour, very transparent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    One thing I'm genuinely rather critical of is the UK policy on holidays. Today's race country is Croatia. They should have just continued saying no non-essential travel. Holiday in the UK. I'll be going to Gloucestershire in September. Perhaps that's overly strong but surely it is better than this weekly farce of leg it to the airport.

    Edit:
    Enzokk wrote: »
    Compared to the UK the Irish Government has excelled the past 5 years. We haven't left the most integrated trading block and will be imposing trade barriers on ourselves during the worst pandemic in more than 100 years and the worst recession that will follow it.

    So not sure why you are trying to imply that the UK government has been better than ours here if a comparison is something to roll your eyes over.


    We've got a thread on Brexit. I disagree with you on it but this thread is about the pandemic and not the last five years.

    The shenanigans in Clifden however were many times worse than Cummings' jaunt to his family in April. 80 people indoors in one place is perfect grounds for the virus to spread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,890 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    One thing I'm genuinely rather critical of is the UK policy on holidays. Today's race country is Croatia. They should have just continued saying no non-essential travel. Holiday in the UK. I'll be going to Gloucestershire in September. Perhaps that's overly strong but surely it is better than this weekly farce of leg it to the airport.

    There's nothing inherently safe about having a holiday in the UK, in the same way as there's nothing inherently dangerous about spending the same length of time in France. The farce, as you rightly point out, is this nonsensical race to the airport to beat an arbitrary cut-off time, coupled with the idea that people engaged in "non-essential" travel are somehow more likely to bring the virus home than those who have successfully argued that their trip was "essential". In this respect, the British government is no different to most others: too many decisions being made with more of any eye on the politics of the situation than effective disease control.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    There's nothing inherently safe about having a holiday in the UK, in the same way as there's nothing inherently dangerous about spending the same length of time in France. The farce, as you rightly point out, is this nonsensical race to the airport to beat an arbitrary cut-off time, coupled with the idea that people engaged in "non-essential" travel are somehow more likely to bring the virus home than those who have successfully argued that their trip was "essential". In this respect, the British government is no different to most others: too many decisions being made with more of any eye on the politics of the situation than effective disease control.

    I think the point behind distinguishing reasons for travel would mean that fewer people would travel and therefore there would be less opportunity for the virus to be imported further from elsewhere.

    It isn't perfect but it is better than what is happening at the moment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 189 ✭✭seanb85


    One thing I'm genuinely rather critical of is the UK policy on holidays. Today's race country is Croatia. They should have just continued saying no non-essential travel. Holiday in the UK. I'll be going to Gloucestershire in September. Perhaps that's overly strong but surely it is better than this weekly farce of leg it to the airport.

    Edit:



    We've got a thread on Brexit. I disagree with you on it but this thread is about the pandemic and not the last five years.

    The shenanigans in Clifden however were many times worse than Cummings' jaunt to his family in April. 80 people indoors in one place is perfect grounds for the virus to spread.

    Cummings was actively infectious, and knew it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,890 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    I think the point behind distinguishing reasons for travel would mean that fewer people would travel and therefore there would be less opportunity for the virus to be imported further from elsewhere.

    That was a logical argument back in November and December and January and February, but there was no move (by any Western European government) at that time to curb those virus-importing movements.

    Now that the virus is endemic in the UK (and other countries), the risk of contracting/spreading the disease is determined by what people do, not where they go. Policies based on colour-coded countries with no regard for regional differences are not helpful in changing the attitude of those who engage in super-spreading behaviour.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    That was a logical argument back in November and December and January and February, but there was no move (by any Western European government) at that time to curb those virus-importing movements.

    Now that the virus is endemic in the UK (and other countries), the risk of contracting/spreading the disease is determined by what people do, not where they go. Policies based on colour-coded countries with no regard for regional differences are not helpful in changing the attitude of those who engage in super-spreading behaviour.

    Different countries have different levels of incidence of the virus and the UK is on the bottom half of the ECDR table in terms of new cases per 100,000. It it is more likely if you go to certain places that you will catch the virus. Similarly that is also true within the UK and the areas are pretty clearly marked out if you use tools like the COVID tracker.

    It is for example more likely that you could catch the virus in Greater Manchester than if you go to Gloucestershire or Norfolk for example.

    Where obviously does matter.

    It could be more sensible to say no non-essential travel outside (quarantine still required for this) and to hotspot areas internally. Then it would be at least about controlling the spread within the UK without having to determine things about other countries.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭lainey_d_123


    One thing I'm genuinely rather critical of is the UK policy on holidays. Today's race country is Croatia. They should have just continued saying no non-essential travel. Holiday in the UK. I'll be going to Gloucestershire in September. Perhaps that's overly strong but surely it is better than this weekly farce of leg it to the airport.

    Edit:



    We've got a thread on Brexit. I disagree with you on it but this thread is about the pandemic and not the last five years.

    The shenanigans in Clifden however were many times worse than Cummings' jaunt to his family in April. 80 people indoors in one place is perfect grounds for the virus to spread.

    It is an absolute farce, indeed.

    What's the point in having a green list if the government can decide to give a few hours' notice that a country is withdrawn? That leads to people panicking and making bad decisions, like trying to hitchhike with strangers or booking onto packed flights and trains, making it even MORE likely that they'll get covid compared to just having continued their holiday normally. What real extra risk is there from giving a week's notice?

    It just smacks of chaotic leadership and incompetence. The situation clearly is not under control if they need to take countries off the green list with hours' notice, so simply don't let people book holidays. Essential travel only, with enforced quarantine. At least then it's clear and people know what they're signing up for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,890 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Different countries have different levels of incidence of the virus and the UK is on the bottom half of the ECDR table in terms of new cases per 100,000. It it is more likely if you go to certain places that you will catch the virus. Similarly that is also true within the UK and the areas are pretty clearly marked out if you use tools like the COVID tracker.

    It is for example more likely that you could catch the virus in Greater Manchester than if you go to Gloucestershire or Norfolk for example.

    Where obviously does matter.

    It could be more sensible to say no non-essential travel outside (quarantine still required for this) and to hotspot areas internally. Then it would be at least about controlling the spread within the UK without having to determine things about other countries.

    Where only matters if you are prepared to precisely define where "where" is. The ECDR table gives the UK as a whole a figure of 12.5 cases/100k today; for France, the overall figure is 54.4/100k ... but where I live (in France) the figure is 2 cases/100k, for an area about half the size of Wales.

    Why, then, should the Welsh lass who's just spent two weeks here with me be subject to quarantine when any of her neighbours can spend the weekend pubcrawling around Manchester and not be subject to any restrictions? That makes no biological sense whatsoever.

    Or to look at it another way: out of the eight people who were here and have now gone back to their six different countries, only one is currently subject to quarantine. What makes the Welsh woman more infectious than the others?

    The fact is she's not, but a politician has decided that the whole of France is suddenly a risky place to be, and her travel doesn't warrant the "essential" tag, regardless of the benefit to her or the Welsh taxpayer, so into quarantine she goes. Again - seeing as her time here was effectively two weeks in a quarantine-like bubble anyway.

    If only the government had an army of people with time on their hands who could talk to travellers like my guest and determine whether or not they were a risk to the public ...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Where only matters if you are prepared to precisely define where "where" is. The ECDR table gives the UK as a whole a figure of 12.5 cases/100k today; for France, the overall figure is 54.4/100k ... but where I live (in France) the figure is 2 cases/100k, for an area about half the size of Wales.

    Why, then, should the Welsh lass who's just spent two weeks here with me be subject to quarantine when any of her neighbours can spend the weekend pubcrawling around Manchester and not be subject to any restrictions? That makes no biological sense whatsoever.

    Or to look at it another way: out of the eight people who were here and have now gone back to their six different countries, only one is currently subject to quarantine. What makes the Welsh woman more infectious than the others?

    The fact is she's not, but a politician has decided that the whole of France is suddenly a risky place to be, and her travel doesn't warrant the "essential" tag, regardless of the benefit to her or the Welsh taxpayer, so into quarantine she goes. Again - seeing as her time here was effectively two weeks in a quarantine-like bubble anyway.

    If only the government had an army of people with time on their hands who could talk to travellers like my guest and determine whether or not they were a risk to the public ...

    I guess because it would take too much administrative effort to distinguish regions in lots of other countries. It isn't too much to tell people simply don't travel. Also in your example the woman from Wales would likely have to pass through busy transport hubs such as airports that are not in your area.

    Also, if Manchester is subject to additional measures I think the advice is you should only travel there for essential reasons.

    Edit: I don't know why you are asking me about the 6 others when I'm clear that none should be travelling. I am critical of the government policy on holidays outside the UK. People should holiday in the UK outside of lockdown areas and not reimport the virus from elsewhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Where only matters if you are prepared to precisely define where "where" is. The ECDR table gives the UK as a whole a figure of 12.5 cases/100k today; for France, the overall figure is 54.4/100k ... but where I live (in France) the figure is 2 cases/100k, for an area about half the size of Wales.

    Why, then, should the Welsh lass who's just spent two weeks here with me be subject to quarantine when any of her neighbours can spend the weekend pubcrawling around Manchester and not be subject to any restrictions? That makes no biological sense whatsoever.

    Or to look at it another way: out of the eight people who were here and have now gone back to their six different countries, only one is currently subject to quarantine. What makes the Welsh woman more infectious than the others?

    The fact is she's not, but a politician has decided that the whole of France is suddenly a risky place to be, and her travel doesn't warrant the "essential" tag, regardless of the benefit to her or the Welsh taxpayer, so into quarantine she goes. Again - seeing as her time here was effectively two weeks in a quarantine-like bubble anyway.

    If only the government had an army of people with time on their hands who could talk to travellers like my guest and determine whether or not they were a risk to the public ...

    The UK government has used this formula from the start. Spain were asking why the Balaeric and Canary islands were included in the ban when they were apparently lower than the UK.Announcing at short notice is stressful although it had been predicted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    I've not been keeping abreast of much Covid related stuff of late just out of sheer boredom.

    What's the story with today's announcement? Have those been keeping an eye on it seen it coming?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've not been keeping abreast of much Covid related stuff of late just out of sheer boredom.

    What's the story with today's announcement? Have those been keeping an eye on it seen it coming?

    Infection rates are going up, so measures being put in place to try and bring them back down.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,789 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Apparently planning to spend £100b on a new testing plan to avoid a second lockdown. Hancock is making a statement now, he was rebuked yesterday for announcing new measures in a press briefing and not in parliament. Some things never change I suppose.

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1303798694232424448?s=20


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Apparently planning to spend £100b on a new testing plan to avoid a second lockdown.
    To paraphrase an old cliché - £100 billion here, £100 billion there (HS2), and pretty soon you're talking serious money.

    Double the defence budget? I don't believe a word of it. Another of Johnson's dead cats.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,527 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Apparently planning to spend £100b on a new testing plan to avoid a second lockdown. Hancock is making a statement now, he was rebuked yesterday for announcing new measures in a press briefing and not in parliament. Some things never change I suppose.

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1303798694232424448?s=20

    Johnson has been a disaster when it comes to Covid and this is just more of it.

    Already the UK testing system is strained to breaking point with people travelling for hours to get a test.

    What happens when you flood the system with multiples of that? Even self testing kits have to be handed out and the results processed. It just isn't targeted enough. Currently positivity rates are at about 1% in most countries. When you get a positivity rate of 0.1% or less, the vast majority of your efforts are wasted and you also risk delaying turnaround for those who are likely to be infected.

    No surprise the UK media have swallowed this. The same media hailed the herd immunity strategy as being clever.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Apparently planning to spend £100b on a new testing plan to avoid a second lockdown. Hancock is making a statement now, he was rebuked yesterday for announcing new measures in a press briefing and not in parliament. Some things never change I suppose.

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1303798694232424448?s=20

    So it shouldn’t be done, is that what you’re saying?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,285 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    based on UK govt performance, absolutely it should not be done


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    based on UK govt performance, absolutely it should not be done

    So do nothing then?

    Great idea.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,688 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Aegir wrote: »
    So do nothing then?

    Great idea.
    Can you say "false dichotomy"?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Can you say "false dichotomy"?

    can you say "hurler from the ditch"?

    very easy for people to say what shouldn't be done, much much harder to say what should.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,789 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Aegir wrote: »
    So it shouldn’t be done, is that what you’re saying?


    By the guys that brought you the "world leading tracing app", no.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,688 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Aegir wrote: »
    can you say "hurler from the ditch"?

    very easy for people to say what shouldn't be done, much much harder to say what should.
    Oh, indeed.

    But that doesn't detract from the force of the observation that spending 100bn on a testing system looks like, um, suboptimal use of resources in a situation where efficient use of resources is really quite important. Other countries manage to get functional and efficient testing systems for a fraction of the cost; why cannot the UK? If they could do that, they would then have a large chunk of that 100bn available to do other things either to curb the spread of the infection to to alleviate its consequences.

    If the UK has to spend 100bn to roll out an adequate testing system something is seriously, seriously wrong in the state of Borisland; this is state failure on a pretty grand scale.

    Perhaps it's the legacy of years of austerity hollowing out the capacity of the UK state to respond effectively and efficiently in a time of crisis; perhaps it's the monstrous incompetence of the present government; perhaps i's an indication that the UK public procurement system has been captured by rent-seeking oligarchs who vastly inflate what the UK has to pay to buy the goods and services it needs; perhaps it's something else entirely. But it's something, and it's something very worrying because, whatever it is, it is probably having effects that go well beyond forcing the UK to spend absurd amounts of money in an attempt to get a functional testing system up and running.

    And its simply not the case that that the only possible response to that is to abandon the testing project and do nothing instead.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Oh, indeed.

    But that doesn't detract from the force of the observation that spending 100bn on a testing system looks like, um, suboptimal use of resources in a situation where efficient use of resources is really quite important. Other countries manage to get functional and efficient testing systems for a fraction of the cost; why cannot the UK? If they could do that, they would then have a large chunk of that 100bn available to do other things either to curb the spread of the infection to to alleviate its consequences.

    If the UK has to spend 100bn to roll out an adequate testing system something is seriously, seriously wrong in the state of Borisland; this is state failure on a pretty grand scale.

    Perhaps its the legacy of years of austerity hollowing out the capacity of the UK state to respond effectively and efficiently in a time of crisis; perhaps it's the monstrous incompetence of the present government; perhaps its an indication that the UK public procurement system has been captured by rent-seeking oligarchs who vastly inflate what the UK has to pay to buy the goods and services it needs; perhaps its something else entirely. But it's something, and it's something very worrying.

    And its simply not the case that that the only possible response to that is to abandon the project and do nothing.

    having an aspiration to achieve something beyond mediocrity is a good thing, is it not? Well, most countries would think that anyway.

    everything has a cost/benefit balance. If this gets the economy back on to almost a normal standing then £100bn (which lets face it, we all know is hugely exaggerated for headline reasons) may be money well spent.

    If you work on the basis that everything is exaggerated for political reasons, either by Boris or by those detracting from his statement, you realise that somewhere in among this, there is actually a reasonable position to go for and this is what the people tasked with delivering this will strive for. Quietly, diligently and in the back ground away from the political point scoring.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 911 ✭✭✭Mebuntu




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,688 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Aegir wrote: »
    having an aspiration to achieve something beyond mediocrity is a good thing, is it not? Well, most countries would think that anyway.
    The problem is that the UK's aspirations to go beyond mediocrity tend to be matched with performance that acheives well below mediocrity. The UK doesn't need solutions that are world-beating; it just needs solutions that work to beat coronavirus. And it doesn't need unique or bespoke solutions; it would be better served to collaborate with other countries in implementing common solutions, or simply to copy what has worked elsewhere.
    Aegir wrote: »
    everything has a cost/benefit balance. If this gets the economy back on to almost a normal standing then £100bn (which lets face it, we all know is hugely exaggerated for headline reasons) may be money well spent.
    Not if the same goal could have been acheived at a lower cost. Even assuming the testing system has the economic benefits that is hoped, it shouldn't cost 100bn, and to the extent that you have paid over the odds to achieve that outcome, that is not money well spent. (And it will turn out to be money particularly badly spent if it fails to achieve the hoped-for outcome.)
    Aegir wrote: »
    If you work on the basis that everything is exaggerated for political reasons, either by Boris or by those detracting from his statement, you realise that somewhere in among this, there is actually a reasonable position to go for and this is what the people tasked with delivering this will strive for. Quietly, diligently and in the back ground away from the political point scoring.
    I see no reason to be confident of this. That wasn't what happened with the contact-tracing app, was it?

    There's a serious point here. Before the pandemic broke, the UK was assessed by most observers - and not just UK observers - as one of the best-prepared countries in Europe for a pandemic. And yet when the moment came, it performed very badly, and had one of the worst experiences in Europe, despite not being the first hit, and having had more opportunity than most to learn from the experience of other countries. Clearly, the assessment was wrong.

    This is worrying. I don't think we can ascribe it all to failings in Johnson's leadership (although they undoubtedly played a part) and I certainly don't think we can say that if you look behind the Johnsonian bluster and oomph all is secretly well. The UK is a country that has been characterised for a long time by a proud tradition of good governance, and it should have had the resilience to react quickly, flexibly and effectively. It didn't, and I don't think we can blame all that on the leadership vacuum at the top, because a resilient state should have the resources to cope with an isolated failure, even at the very top. I do think UK state capacity has been seriously degraded in the austerity years, not just by being starved of investment but also by being hollowed out by relentless years of a right-wing anti-state, anti-expertise, anti-public service ideology and mindset. The medium-term challenge for the UK is to rebuild the capacity it once had - though, obviously, that project won't start as long as the Johson-Cummings regime is in power.


  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Aegir wrote: »
    So it shouldn’t be done, is that what you’re saying?

    The Times have come up with a radical view on this -

    The Times view on Boris Johnson’s coronavirus testing plan: Moonshot or Moonshine?
    The prime minister should stop fantasising about daily mass-testing the whole population and focus on making the existing test and trace programme work


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/the-times-view-on-boris-johnsons-coronavirus-testing-plan-moonshot-or-moonshine-kdg9hwj5q

    I guess he's now bored of test and trace so he has to move onto the latest wheeze and there are always the gullible out there who lap up his nonsense.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    There's a serious point here. Before the pandemic broke, the UK was assessed by most observers - and not just UK observers - as one of the best-prepared countries in Europe for a pandemic. And yet when the moment came, it performed very badly, and had one of the worst experiences in Europe, despite not being the first hit, and having had more opportunity than most to learn from the experience of other countries. Clearly, the assessment was wrong.

    This is worrying. I don't think we can ascribe it all to failings in Johnson's leadership (although they undoubtedly played a part) and I certainly don't think we can say that if you look behind the Johnsonian bluster and oomph all is secretly well. The UK is a country that has been characterised for a long time by a proud tradition of good governance, and it should have had the resilience to react quickly, flexibly and effectively. It didn't, and I don't think we can blame all that on the leadership vacuum at the top, because a resilient state should have the resources to cope with an isolated failure, even at the very top. I do think UK state capacity has been seriously degraded in the austerity years, not just by being starved of investment but also by being hollowed out by relentless years of a right-wing anti-state, anti-expertise, anti-public service ideology and mindset. The medium-term challenge for the UK is to rebuild the capacity it once had - though, obviously, that project won't start as long as the Johson-Cummings regime is in power.

    I wouldn't disagree with that. There were clear failings and what these were need to be fully understood. I don't think it is as simple as saying it is down to austerity though, I think they just had a script of what they expected to happen and it didn't go that way.

    The belief that the virus was going to come in from China and quarantining people coming from there was a reasonable move, but they were obsessed with finding patient zero and as it turned out, there were at least 1300 patient zeros, with over 75% coming in from Italy, Spain and France. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52993734#:~:text=The%20study%2C%20by%20the%20Covid,started%20the%20whole%20UK%20outbreak.&text=The%20researchers%20analysed%20the%20genetic,with%20coronavirus%20in%20the%20UK.


  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Mebuntu wrote: »

    Oh it is worse than that - much worse

    Councils in England, which the government said would be expected to employ teams of marshals at their own expense, said they had received no warning from government about the announcement, and had been given little detail since about what was expected of them.

    “Bearing in mind the government is introducing the new rules from Monday, they have given us no indication of additional resources, no staff, no powers of enforcement and no time to prepare people for the roles or carry out security checks. It is serial incompetence,” said Nick Forbes, the leader of Newcastle city council.


    and the best line - Yet again, it is government by press release,

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/10/boris-johnson-covid-marshals-plan-criticised-shambolic-england


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    I guess he's now bored of test and trace so he has to move onto the latest wheeze and there are always the gullible out there who lap up his nonsense.

    and there are always the gullible who just want to distract and criticise.

    From a management perspective, I would agree that Boris is bored of test and trace. He is a strategic thinker and usually, strategic thinkers don't do detail. They define the strategy, give people the tools to do it and then back away and let them get on with it.

    Typically, a strategic thinker would ask the question what do you need to get test and trace done?

    "Well, we need call centres staffed with 25,000 people".
    "OK, there's your 25,000 people, make it happen. Next?"

    it is a frustrating trait for a PM to have and the fact it is wrapped up in bluster and self aggrandisement is truly infuriating, I know, because I have worked for people who do the same, but from his point of view, that is his job.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Aegir wrote: »
    and there are always the gullible who just want to distract and criticise.

    From a management perspective, I would agree that Boris is bored of test and trace. He is a strategic thinker and usually, strategic thinkers don't do detail. They define the strategy, give people the tools to do it and then back away and let them get on with it.

    Typically, a strategic thinker would ask the question what do you need to get test and trace done?

    "Well, we need call centres staffed with 25,000 people".
    "OK, there's your 25,000 people, make it happen. Next?"

    it is a frustrating trait for a PM to have and the fact it is wrapped up in bluster and self aggrandisement is truly infuriating, I know, because I have worked for people who do the same, but from his point of view, that is his job.

    Ok so repeating the post from above -

    Councils in England, which the government said would be expected to employ teams of marshals at their own expense, said they had received no warning from government about the announcement, and had been given little detail since about what was expected of them.

    “Bearing in mind the government is introducing the new rules from Monday, they have given us no indication of additional resources, no staff, no powers of enforcement and no time to prepare people for the roles or carry out security checks. It is serial incompetence,” said Nick Forbes, the leader of Newcastle city council.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/10/boris-johnson-covid-marshals-plan-criticised-shambolic-england

    It does not sound like the councils have been given the tools, guidance or even insight into what they are supposed to be doing with Covid marshals. That is not strategic thinking or management - not even close.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    That article is pretty scathing:
    The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (MHCLG) said councils could draw on existing staff or volunteers to fill the roles.
    ...
    The ministry said that further details would be published “in due course”, although it added that councils were best placed to “determine the model of deployment and responsibilities of marshals in their areas”. It suggested that versions of Covid marshals already operated in Leeds and in various towns in Cornwall.

    Leeds city council said its initiative ... was very different in scope and intention to what the government appeared to envisage for Covid marshals.

    Many councils have been deploying environmental health and trading standards staff to informally advise the public and businesses about social distancing rules in shops, markets and in parks. But there is a national shortage of such workers, and environmental health departments have experienced some of the worst cuts under austerity.

    “The challenge of starting this policy from scratch, at a few days’ notice, with no money and no guidance, is not something it is possible for councils to do,” said Richard Watts, leader of Islington borough council in London.
    As others have said before, Cummings is discovering that governing is not the same as campaigning. His position however is bulletproof, as his "boss" is too lazy to do the work.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,223 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Mebuntu wrote: »




    Jesus. That article has a photo of Beasty the moderator on it! He gets everywhere that fella


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,688 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Aegir wrote: »
    I wouldn't disagree with that. There were clear failings and what these were need to be fully understood. I don't think it is as simple as saying it is down to austerity though, I think they just had a script of what they expected to happen and it didn't go that way . . .
    Yes, but a resilient state would be ready for that. "So that's Plan A. In what circumstances will Plan A fail? What will be our first sign of those circumstancess unfolding? In that event, what is Plan B?" and so forth. The system should have been nimble enough to plan like that, but it doesn't appear to have been.

    Similarly, we can observe the focus on finding patient zero, but ask why there was that focus. What was the benefit of finding patient zero? Why did it matter?

    Am I wrong in ascribing this to austerity? Perhaps. But either this erosion of state capacity had been going on for a while, in which case the likely explanations are either (a) austerity, (b) too long a period of Tory rule, with the period changes of government that refresh a democratic state and prevent a single narrow ideology from getting too entrenched, or (c) bit of both; or the erosion was recent and rapid, in which case the likely explanation is Johnson/Cummings and their monstrous Trumpian unfitness for leadership.

    The political route to fixing any of these starts with the same step; change of government. But the hollowing out of constitutional resilience and political integrity in the UK has been as bad or worse than the hollowing out of state capacity; we have a PM leading his government into open violation of treaty obligations in defiance both of international law and of his recent electoral mandate, and the parliamentary party that should be, metaphorically speaking, leaving him alone in room with a revolver and one bullet seems prepared to wear this.

    These are sad days for Britain.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    serfboard wrote: »
    That article is pretty scathing:

    As others have said before, Cummings is discovering that governing is not the same as campaigning. His position however is bulletproof, as his "boss" is too lazy to do the work.

    its the Guardian. The Guardian is about as credible as the Daily Mail these days.


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