Is America losing its allure?

mr_fegelien · 02-06-2020 2:11pm #1

When I first came to Ireland in 2009, many teachers, classmates, and adults always talked about moving to the States in the future for a better life. People even envied me for living there and asked "Why the **** did you come to this kip called Ireland?".

Fast forward 11 years now, it seems the tone has completely changed. Sure, people still go there, but the numbers are fewer. After the mass shootings like Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, Isla Vista, the spying revelations by Snowden, the police brutality etc... has America became a first world nation relegated to third world status?

Dravokivich · 02-06-2020 2:12pm

Snowden only cared about Americans being spied on. He didn't care about anyone else.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 02-06-2020 2:13pm

In the past, I thought it might be cool to live in the US for a few years. Now, I don't feel so inclined at all. No interest.

02-06-2020 2:16pm

I think it has lost some of its allure, too many social problems, the version of capitalism is too winner takes all and the health system would be a worry if you got sick. Not to mention the guns, murders and crimes.

If I was very rich America would be great. But for an ordinary worker I wouldn't fancy it.

LessOutragePlz · 02-06-2020 2:16pm

I can't wait to visit definitely going to go do a tour of the White House and hopefully Donald is still the president when I get there because I would love to meet him in person.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 02-06-2020 2:17pm

Trump will make America great again!

You just wait and see...

Seth Brundle · 02-06-2020 2:18pm

"Is America losing its allure?"
What allure?

Good jib! · 02-06-2020 2:19pm

I think people are starting to realise that we actually have it quite good here in our neck of the woods. Decent healthcare, proper food standards, and none of that divisive Red vs Blue stuff.

Obviously given the size of the place there are still many great places to visit in the US, but apart from that I feel overall the average Irish person has a higher quality of life than the average American.

c.p.w.g.w · 02-06-2020 2:26pm

I just find America fascinating for all the wrong reasons...

Bernie was seen as some far left commie...were as in Europe he'd likely be seen as a left-centric politician.

A fairly sizeable portion of the population work multiple jobs, crazy hours just to struggle by.

Employment protection & rights are pretty much not existant. I mean holidays in the states are at the discretion of the employer, not like our statutory minimum here.

Harry Palmr · 02-06-2020 2:33pm

The United States fooled us in the past with sparkling trinkets like Dallas, ET and rock music but at home the core of the economy and society has been in a continual squeeze for decades with the "middle classes" put to the pin of their collar and lately seen driving to car parks to have food thrown in the back of their SUVs. Meanwhile the rich have just got ever richer, live in gated compounds with cheap third world staff and a view that anyone who isn't white and rich is not worth a damn. That cohort found its dream leader in Donald Trump but even some of them might just be starting to wonder if the whole house will have burnt down by 2024. Rich and privileged but in a way that feels more like apartheid era South Africa's white population than anywhere else.

raehogan · 02-06-2020 2:36pm

Definitely lost it. When I spent a summer there in 2002 it was pretty great but a teenage boy from the area I was living in was ambushed while out for a jog and shot dead by his father as revenge against his ex wife for winning custody of him. That and a few other incidents got me, like being rough handled by the police for simply kicking a football about in a field after 9pm, or seeing the 'uniforms' a lot of young women wore in a lot of bars, clubs and restos.

The racism was shocking too. Really shocking. I know we have a problem with racism in Ireland but I was not in the least prepared for some of the things I heard and saw over there.

Trump is a puppet despot in the making. He is not handling either of the current crisis with good leadership.

We are very lucky to be on this little rock of ours at this time. We'll go through a tough year or three but we'll recover from covid and Brexit. Europe is old world, old money and not as prone to being swallowed up by paranoia and aggression. We're ok where we are, for now.

J. Marston · 02-06-2020 2:36pm

Best way I've seen it described over the last few days is a third world country wearing a Gucci belt.

ka2 · 02-06-2020 2:38pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

I just find America fascinating for all the wrong reasons...

Bernie was seen as some far left commie...were as in Europe he'd likely be seen as a left-centric politician.

A fairly sizeable portion of the population work multiple jobs, crazy hours just to struggle by.

Employment protection & rights are pretty much not existant. I mean holidays in the states are at the discretion of the employer, not like our statutory minimum here.

That's a huge thing. The Democrats would be considered "left" in the US whereas they'd probably still be further to the right than Fine Gael.

Also, the work culture over there is very much "live to work" rather than "work to live".

Rodney Bathgate · 02-06-2020 2:39pm

J. Marston wrote: »

Best way I've seen it described over the last few days is a third world country wearing a Gucci belt.

Which is why so many people from south and central america want to go there - to a third world country.

02-06-2020 2:40pm

Never saw the appeal of America tbh ......... it's grand if you are very wealthy but most folk aren't that. There's a sad amount of wannabe Americans in Ireland ....... greet each other and others ( :eek: ) with "dude" etc etc ... and dress themselves in crap bought over in the great USofA on some sh1tty trip of a lifetime they can't stop talking about back in '97..... clowns.

Rodney Bathgate · 02-06-2020 2:40pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

When I first came to Ireland in 2009, many teachers, classmates, and adults always talked about moving to the States in the future for a better life. People even envied me for living there and asked "Why the **** did you come to this kip called Ireland".

Fast forward 11 years now, it seems the tone has completely changed. Sure, people still go there, but the numbers are fewer. After the mass shootings like Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, Isla Vista, the spying revelations by Snowden, the police brutality etc... has America became a first world nation relegated to third world status?

What country are you from Mr Fegelien? The US?

Mango Joe · 02-06-2020 2:41pm

Its so funny that OP waited until the US had been especially hard hit by the ongoing Pandemic and then rocked to its core and set alight by widespread civic unrest before asking this question.

Yes OP, just a tiny little bit of allure being knocked off right now. A smidgeon, hardly even noticable really.

strandroad · 02-06-2020 2:41pm

You need to have this dog eat dog mentality to enjoy living there even if successful. So much misery to witness, and it's amazing to see how people affected by lack of healthcare, violence etc will still defend the system as the best country in the world.

Great for holidays though. Can't beat a good roadtrip there.

jrosen · 02-06-2020 2:42pm

I lived in the US for a few years and loved it, the experience was great. We made some amazing friends. But its very different than the picture they try to paint. I couldn't think of a worse place to live if you were unwell, short of money or not white.

Edgware · 02-06-2020 2:45pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

When I first came to Ireland in 2009, many teachers, classmates, and adults always talked about moving to the States in the future for a better life. People even envied me for living there and asked "Why the **** did you come to this kip called Ireland".

Fast forward 11 years now, it seems the tone has completely changed. Sure, people still go there, but the numbers are fewer. After the mass shootings like Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, Isla Vista, the spying revelations by Snowden, the police brutality etc... has America became a first world nation relegated to third world status?

"numbers are fewer"
Of course they are. Booming economy in Ireland, no J1, problems getting Visas.
When things go belly uphere we will be on the planes again. Give us Visas and we will be there. Far better attraction than Australia.

20silkcut · 02-06-2020 2:51pm

I went to Las Vegas last year. To be honest I felt like a pauper . Unless your mega rich you have no business in Vegas. They want thousands off you. And don’t think much of it.
Value of money is just on a different scale.

Rodney Bathgate · 02-06-2020 2:54pm

Vegas is nothing like the rest of the US.

Danzy · 02-06-2020 2:55pm

Augeo wrote: »

Never saw the appeal of America tbh ......... it's grand if you are very wealthy but most folk aren't that. There's a sad amount of wannabe Americans in Ireland ....... greet each other and others ( :eek: ) with "dude" etc etc ... and dress themselves in crap bought over in the great USofA on some sh1tty trip of a lifetime they can't stop talking about back in '97..... clowns.

Dude actually comes from Irish.

A dudara, a over dressed, posery person.

I ageee with you though

Morgans · 02-06-2020 2:58pm

Im surprised more diabetics dont emigrate from the states. Anyone with any chronic health condition for that matter.

realdanbreen · 02-06-2020 2:59pm

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

I can't wait to visit definitely going to go do a tour of the White House and hopefully Donald is still the president when I get there because I would love to meet him in person.

Wow!I didn't realise Donald stood at the door of the white house greeting the tour party's! Awesome, go USA.

TheBoyConor · 02-06-2020 2:59pm

The USA as a nation is almost totally degenerate from a social and political point of view. Some places along the west coast buck that trend though, and always have. Places like SF and Seattle. But they are vastly outnumbered by the hoards of miss educated religious fundamentalists and capitalist pigs.

In terms of science and technology, it is still a world leader. But even that is under threat from the likes of the trumpites.

Geuze · 02-06-2020 3:00pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

When I first came to Ireland in 2009, many teachers, classmates, and adults always talked about moving to the States in the future for a better life.

Given that it's not easy to immigrate into the USA, a lot of these people were simply day-dreaming.

I day dream about having a 250 sqm house, and an Audi, but it ain't happening.

partyguinness · 02-06-2020 3:00pm

The home of the best and of the worst.

Degag · 02-06-2020 3:01pm

For years I've said to myself that i must go and visit the US sometime soon. Would have loved to go for a few months, rent a car and just travel through the country. Route 66 and whatnot. Visit all those amazing looking restaurants on Diners, Drivers & Dives etc.

Now, not so much. In fact, not at all. It is a terrible country with a lot of terrible people and terrible leadership. I was watching one of the US news channels last night and I must have heard their great leader utter the phrase "Greatest Country in the World" umpteen times.

I don't get how any same and reasonable person looking at it logically could say that the country was even close to being the greatest in the world. No matter what type of statistic you wanted to judge it against it wouldn't even be close i feel.

Sad really.

Ulysses Gaze · 02-06-2020 3:01pm

Morgans wrote: »

Im surprised more diabetics dont emigrate from the states. Anyone with any chronic health condition for that matter.

Devil's Advocate here.

If American's saw how much tax we paid here, but that we were still paying for private healthcare and still having to pay when we go to a GP, they'd ask.

"So why are you paying all this tax then?"

Queasy Tadpole · 02-06-2020 3:02pm

The only allure the country ever had for me was it's absolutely amazing geography, it's national parks are absolutely mind blowing.

Some of the places they have there are very hard to find anywhere else in the world.

If I was a very rich man I would live there but I'm not so I don't.

partyguinness · 02-06-2020 3:02pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

When I first came to Ireland in 2009, many teachers, classmates, and adults always talked about moving to the States in the future for a better life. People even envied me for living there and asked "Why the **** did you come to this kip called Ireland?".

What **** hole part of Ireland did you move to and are you sure it was 2009 and not 1979?

TheBoyConor · 02-06-2020 3:05pm

Augeo wrote: »

Never saw the appeal of America tbh ......... it's grand if you are very wealthy but most folk aren't that. There's a sad amount of wannabe Americans in Ireland ....... greet each other and others ( :eek: ) with "dude" etc etc ... and dress themselves in crap bought over in the great USofA on some sh1tty trip of a lifetime they can't stop talking about back in '97..... clowns.

I agree. I cannot stand those people, the ones with the Hollister clothes and talking with an accent. I hear this kinda thing and I feel like reminding them that they are from Dunmanway….not San Francisco.

I think that the ideal Ireland that we would have, the Ireland that we dreamed of, would be the home of a people who valued material wealth only as a basis for right living, of a people who, satisfied with frugal comfort, devoted their leisure to the things of the spirit - a land whose countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose fields and villages would be joyous with the sounds of industry, with the romping of sturdy children, the contest of athletic youths and the laughter of happy maidens, whose fire sides would be forums for the wisdom of serene old age. The home, in short, of a people living the life that God desires that men should live.

mr_fegelien · 02-06-2020 3:07pm

partyguinness wrote: »

What **** hole part of Ireland did you move to and are you sure it was 2009 and not 1979?

Ranelagh, then Dundrum, then Blackrock.

Trekker09 · 02-06-2020 3:08pm

Just go to Canada!

Ulysses Gaze · 02-06-2020 3:09pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Ranelagh, then Dundrum, then Blackrock.

But of course!

The kids in those areas think they are in the Irish equivalent of the OC.
Just without the weather.

So America would appeal to them.

Bobblehats · 02-06-2020 3:09pm

It wouldn’t be a model society to style ourselves on.

Rodney Bathgate · 02-06-2020 3:10pm

Trekker09 wrote: »

Just go to Canada!

Where the PM will do his best blackface impression for you if you do a tour of his offices.

02-06-2020 3:11pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I agree. I cannot stand those people, the ones with the Hollister clothes and talking with an accent. I hear this kinda thing and I feel like reminding them that they are from Dunmanway….not San Francisco.

I think that the ideal Ireland that we would have, the Ireland that we dreamed of, would be the home of a people who valued material wealth only as a basis for right living, of a people who, satisfied with frugal comfort, devoted their leisure to the things of the spirit - a land whose countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose fields and villages would be joyous with the sounds of industry, with the romping of sturdy children, the contest of athletic youths and the laughter of happy maidens, whose fire sides would be forums for the wisdom of serene old age. The home, in short, of a people living the life that God desires that men should live.

I know the source but it sounds like something Hitler would have written.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 02-06-2020 3:11pm

The amount of sneering that goes on in this country these days... the way many of our citizens look down their nose at other people/nations, you'd swear we inhabited some sort of perfect utopia here in the emerald isle...

And then whenever there is the slightest little crisis over here... 100's of 1,000's jump on planes and boats to flee the place. No loyalty to their beautiful perfect utopia... :rolleyes:

At least you have to respect many other nations, whos people stick around and rebuild when the sh!t hits the fan... they believe in their nation even if it's not perfect. Our lot go running for the nearest exit, and then talk about how proud they are to be Irish! And everyone loves the Irish bla bla bla! (The hypocrisy makes me want to throw up tbh!) :P

Ulysses Gaze · 02-06-2020 3:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I know the source but it sounds like something Hitler would have written.

More like De Valera and his dancing at the crossroads schtick.

TheBoyConor · 02-06-2020 3:13pm

When you read it in the voice of Devalera's bedside manner voice, it sounds quite benign. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church seem to have taken the "romping of sturdy children" part a bit too literally.&#55357;&#56904;

Alf Veedersane · 02-06-2020 3:15pm

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

More like De Valera and his dancing at the crossroads schtick.

Don't be flippant, Michael.

bocaman · 02-06-2020 3:17pm

Certainly is. The City Upon a Hill is starting to look less attractive. Only the utterly desperate would want to live there now.

NIMAN · 02-06-2020 3:19pm

Never been, would always liked to have taken a break there for a week but never would have had the inclination to live there.

I know too many people who told me it was a sh1thole and rough, and that was way back.

Madeleine Birchfield · 02-06-2020 3:20pm

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Which is why so many people from south and central america want to go there - to a third world country.

Because compared to failed states like Venezuela and warzone countries like Mexico and Colombia, the United States looks like paradise. But that may change if the US itself falls into civil war from the recent riots.

tom_murphy112 · 02-06-2020 3:21pm

Work with a lot of Americans myself and it is amazing to see how they are being duped day in and day out by large corporation, who in return do a lot of political lobbying to keep employees right to a minimum.

Some examples,

- They always complain about the number of Public Holidays we get, I always tell them who's fault is that ??

- If you are a full time employee, you are not guaranteed a fixed number of holidays by law. The company I work for gives US folks about 10 days a year and if you are a contractor, you get no paid holidays. I know few folks in my team, who never take time off because of this (It is one of the large multinational companies with billions of profits every year)

- They always complain about high health insurance cost, yet most are hard core republicans who insist there shouldn't be free health care. Always implying why should I pay for someone else's health care cost.

- Folks can be let go with a week notice and very little severance pay (1 months at max) even if you are with the company for over 10 years!

- How one could pay a waiter or waitress below minimum wage and expect them to make it up via tips, this is one I never understood. But talking to my US team mates, they don't get what is wrong with that.

I honestly think the folks in America, need to fight for more rights to be treated like a human, rather than worrying too much about the government taking their guns away or chlorine in the water turning their frogs gay. But I think our way of thinking is a lot different to most Americans.

irishguitarlad · 02-06-2020 3:23pm

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

Because compared to failed states like Venezuela and warzone countries like Mexico and Colombia, the United States looks like paradise. But that may change if the US itself falls into civil war from the recent riots.

Also don't forget that it's a lot cheaper to travel by land from México to the U.S than fork out a plain ticket to Europe. Also a lot of Mexicans would have families there from generations back. On Venezuelans, I think the majority move to Spain as they are guaranteed Spanish citizenship after 3 years (this rule also applies for colombians and ecuadorians)and a lot also have grandparents that were from Italy, Portugal, Spain so they apply for citizenship when they come.

partyguinness · 02-06-2020 3:28pm

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

At least you have to respect many other nations, whos people stick around and rebuild when the sh!t hits the fan... they believe in their nation even if it's not perfect. Our lot go running for the nearest exit, and then talk about how proud they are to be Irish! And everyone loves the Irish bla bla bla! (The hypocrisy makes me want to throw up tbh!) :P

I have wondered that point while living in the England (moved for personal and not economic reasons) and I came to the conclusion that say the reason the average white English guy does not emigrate is because they are very very insular and home birds. The idea of moving even 5 miles down the road fills them with horror- may as well be outer Mongolia. After 10 years here I have encountered this attitude quite a bit.

This insular attitude is why large white areas are being left behind and voted for Brexit...they are stale and decaying and lack the vibrancy of emigrants.

"Sure that's all the way over in Coventry"........it's a 15 mins drive.

Even last week my wife's buddy asked would I ever move from my current workplace closer to home and how much of a drag the communte must be being so far away and all.....it is pleasant a 9 mile 15-20 minute commute in the car each morning but you would swear I was 3 hours away.

Ulysses Gaze · 02-06-2020 3:29pm

tom_murphy112 wrote: »

Work with a lot of Americans myself and it is amazing to see how they are being duped day in and day out by large corporation, who in return do a lot of political lobbying to keep employees right to a minimum.

Some examples,

- They always complain about the number of Public Holidays we get, I always tell them who's fault is that ??

- If you are a full time employee, you are not guaranteed a fixed number of holidays by law. The company I work for gives US folks about 10 days a year and if you are a contractor, you get no paid holidays. I know few folks in my team, who never take time off because of this (It is one of the large multinational companies with billions of profits every year)

- They always complain about high health insurance cost, yet most are hard core republicans who insist there shouldn't be free health care. Always implying why should I pay for someone else's health care cost.

- Folks can be let go with a week notice and very little severance pay (1 months at max) even if you are with the company for over 10 years!

- How one could pay a waiter or waitress, below minimum wage and expect them to make it up via tips, this is one I never understood. But talking to my US team mates, they don't get what is wrong with that.

I honestly think the folks in America, need to fight for more rights to be treated like a human, rather than worrying too much about the government taking their guns away or chlorine in the water turning their frogs gay. But I think we just thinking in a different way to most Americans.

It's called the American Dream. You need to be asleep to believe it.

George Carlin.

mariaalice · 02-06-2020 3:30pm

It has to exist psychological its the Shangri la, or el dorado of the collective unconscious.

Is America losing its allure?

Comments