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Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

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  • Options
    #122
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    km79 wrote: »
    They will have huge difficulty recruiting now more than ever . He has a point.
    But sure according to the unions they wont come looking for more.........I wonder will they approach the INTO membership to do their bit for the "national interest" as our union is putting it........Wouldn't be one bit suprised with anything at this stage

    Huge difficulty is not the same as suddenly asking everyone to work for free which is what is being suggested. Marking papers is a long hard slog for the month in the summer. Nobody is going to do that work for free.

    The SEC pay examiners to supervise every summer. As the JC is not happening that frees up a load of examiners (granted some will more than likely drop out). There would have been a budget to pay all these people. Why would they suddenly just decide not to pay for this contracted work?


  • Options
    #123
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    Have you an inside source nobody else has? We're all guessing

    No, you're guessing, you just decided that because the SEC was voluntary work that it wouldn't be paid. It was explained to you what that actually means but you've decided to start a completely unfounded rumour on that basis anyway.

    The recruitment for written examiners is still open on the SEC website, and you can read the terms and conditions of the appointment as part of the application where it clearly outlines payment for work, as well as travel and subsistence.

    https://www.examinations.ie/misc-doc/BI-RE-88489333.pdf


  • Options
    #124
    C__MC
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭C__MC


    The department of education are one of the most backward and clueless departments that serves this country

    Any call they make is always disastrous

    They are asking students to complete a set of really stressful exams and study for one full year in the middle of a global pandemic. How is this realistic on young people who like the rest of us are feeling the knock on effects of this lockdown and everything else that is going on.

    Students are relying on online teaching to serve their needs, at best we know online teaching could not be the same in any capacity. They think a two week block in mid July will do the trick despite students not seeing their teachers for 3/4 months?

    Wellbeing at its best

    Don't get me started on the JC

    They have made a right shambles of all this for students parents and teachers


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    #125
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    Just out of curiosity has anyone had any contact from school management teams or heard anything about how they plan to proceed right now at a school level? What to teachers plan to do?

    I’m lucky the LC music got their 50% but they still seem to be ticking away as I’ve had two emails with work since the announcement already. My plan for the first two weeks is to finish of course material with two of the three groups anyways. The third music are done but I think I’m just going to take Irish music week one and general listening skills the second week. Both those are applicable skills for the Leaving Cert rather than specific practised questions for an exam they might not sit. I’ll leave the set work revision etc until there is more clarity....


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    #126
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,393 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity has anyone had any contact from school management teams or heard anything about how they plan to proceed right now at a school level? What to teachers plan to do?

    I’m lucky the LC music got their 50% but they still seem to be ticking away as I’ve had two emails with work since the announcement already. My plan for the first two weeks is to finish of course material with two of the three groups anyways. The third music are done but I think I’m just going to take Irish music week one and general listening skills the second week. Both those are applicable skills for the Leaving Cert rather than specific practised questions for an exam they might not sit. I’ll leave the set work revision etc until there is more clarity....
    Not to sound funny but why would you? I know no more than what you know and according to DESk, we continue next week as we did for 3 weeks prior to Easter break.


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    #127
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    TheDriver wrote: »
    Not to sound funny but why would you? I know no more than what you know and according to DESk, we continue next week as we did for 3 weeks prior to Easter break.

    Tbh I think more in terms of almost certainly not opening for students. When this started I think a lot certainly believed we would all be back at school in time

    We’re fully online now so do we continue teaching as if in school or is there a point where the schools say revise rather than new content. Are we doing testing this summer? What about reports? Do we include third years and sixth years in those given they won’t have an exam immediately? Are we have staff meetings for example.

    Actually looking at that maybe it’s just general guidance rather than just state exams. I know I have colleagues saying ‘I recorded lessons and they’re are up there now, I don’t care what’s going on. I’m teaching them for the full term and they can catch up over the summer and I move on in September.’ That seems a bit mad to me, tbh I’m assuming most of what I teach now will need to be gone through even at a faster pace once back in a standard classroom


  • Options
    #128
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    Tbh I think more in terms of almost certainly not opening for students. When this started I think a lot certainly believed we would all be back at school in time

    We’re fully online now so do we continue teaching as if in school or is there a point where the schools say revise rather than new content. Are we doing testing this summer? What about reports? Do we include third years and sixth years in those given they won’t have an exam immediately? Are we have staff meetings for example.

    Actually looking at that maybe it’s just general guidance rather than just state exams. I know I have colleagues saying ‘I recorded lessons and they’re are up there now, I don’t care what’s going on. I’m teaching them for the full term and they can catch up over the summer and I move on in September.’ That seems a bit mad to me, tbh I’m assuming most of what I teach now will need to be gone through even at a faster pace once back in a standard classroom

    It has made “teaching “ JC and LC next to impossible
    I’ve finished both courses
    Spends ages devising revision plans before we broke up for Easter
    Had self assessments schedule on G Classroom

    There will be very little engagement from them now
    The 2 year groups who would have been viewed as the priority before the holidays
    The ministers attempts to provide “clarity” has upset the entire Apple Cart
    His confusing description of school closures has compounded matters
    It’s a huge huge mess. And has made our job even more difficult
    Dreading next week
    It’s not only Students motivation that will be affected .........


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    #129
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    km79 wrote: »
    It has made “teaching “ JC and LC next to impossible
    I’ve finished both courses
    Spends ages devising revision plans before we broke up for Easter
    Had self assessments schedule on G Classroom

    There will be very little engagement from them now
    The 2 year groups who would have been viewed as the priority before the holidays
    The ministers attempts to provide “clarity” has upset the entire Apple Cart
    His confusing description of school closures has compounded matters
    It’s a huge huge mess. And has made our job even more difficult
    Dreading next week
    It’s not only Students motivation that will be affected .........

    I had the LC done and videoed and scheduled in on google classroom too but was due to start laying out the junior cert music and maths tomorrow morning. I’ve no idea really what to do now and engagement isn’t going to be great. I guess I’ll maybe start scheduling the 5th years tomorrow and push the junior cert material to later in the week when maybe we’ll have a bit more clarity. I have to get ahead because I’ve the two kids at home with me and I was exhausted working until after 10 every night before the break


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    #130
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,393 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    Tbh I think more in terms of almost certainly not opening for students. When this started I think a lot certainly believed we would all be back at school in time

    We’re fully online now so do we continue teaching as if in school or is there a point where the schools say revise rather than new content. Are we doing testing this summer? What about reports? Do we include third years and sixth years in those given they won’t have an exam immediately? Are we have staff meetings for example.

    Actually looking at that maybe it’s just general guidance rather than just state exams. I know I have colleagues saying ‘I recorded lessons and they’re are up there now, I don’t care what’s going on. I’m teaching them for the full term and they can catch up over the summer and I move on in September.’ That seems a bit mad to me, tbh I’m assuming most of what I teach now will need to be gone through even at a faster pace once back in a standard classroom

    I will only be telling staff what I know which is continue as normal as we await further instruction. There's no other facts to pass on at this stage. I don't want to sound mean or funny but there is nothing else to tell staff bar rumour.
    I agree though that it is going to be tough keeping 3rd years engaged. 5tg years is possible under "threat" that they'll fall behind for their leaving cert, likewise for 2nd years. The minister would have done best by saying nothing for a while. Even if the outcome was the same, it would have had a better pathway to that outcome.


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    #131
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    TheDriver wrote: »
    I will only be telling staff what I know which is continue as normal as we await further instruction. There's no other facts to pass on at this stage. I don't want to sound mean or funny but there is nothing else to tell staff bar rumour.
    I agree though that it is going to be tough keeping 3rd years engaged. 5tg years is possible under "threat" that they'll fall behind for their leaving cert, likewise for 2nd years. The minister would have done best by saying nothing for a while. Even if the outcome was the same, it would have had a better pathway to that outcome.

    100% agree
    Timing was appalling for so many reasons


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    #132
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,763 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    No, you're guessing, you just decided that because the SEC was voluntary work that it wouldn't be paid. It was explained to you what that actually means but you've decided to start a completely unfounded rumour on that basis anyway.

    The recruitment for written examiners is still open on the SEC website, and you can read the terms and conditions of the appointment as part of the application where it clearly outlines payment for work, as well as travel and subsistence.

    https://www.examinations.ie/misc-doc/BI-RE-88489333.pdf

    I didn't start any rumour. I never said "this is what they're going to do, heard it from my aunt who's the head of the SEC".

    I was discussing what may or may not happen while stating its all up in the air and I believed the most likely scenario was the exams won't happen.

    Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it's any less valid a theory than anything else. I'm done talking to you now so please stop replying to me.

    Waste of time. Nothing is certain, you don't know what's going to happen anymore than anybody else.


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    #133
    mtoutlemonde
    Registered Users Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭mtoutlemonde


    ^^^ I didn't want to quote your post. You may want to edit your post so that your relative can't be identified or you. I hope this isn't seen as back seat modding just for your protection.


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    #134
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    I didn't start any rumour. I never said "this is what they're going to do", heard it from my aunt who's the head of the SEC.

    I was discussing what may or may not happen while stating its all up in the air and I believed the most likely scenario was the exams won't happen.

    Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it's any less valid a theory than anything else. I'm done talking to you now so please stop replying to me.

    Waste of time. Nothing is certain, you don't know what's going to happen anymore than anybody else.

    You don't get to choose who replies to threads.
    Going on the TUI msg the SEC will probably have to look for volunteers to cover exams, if they go ahead at all. I doubt there will be any money to pay people to do it.

    This is what you posted.

    This is what TUI have posted
    The superintending and marking of the exams is SEC work, and those who wish to carry out this work will do so under contract to the SEC.

    https://www.tui.ie/news/important-message-from-tui-president-seamus-lahart-%e2%80%93-factual-information-on-current-state-exams-situation-.13731.html

    There is zero mention of volunteering and you just decided that there wouldn't be any money to pay people. Money that would have been budgeted for the LC months ago. Calling your post a theory doesn't lend any credence to it. A system exists for supervising and marking exams which is contracted and paid work. Plenty of evidence to support that actual situation. None to support your 'theory'.


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    #135
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    mtoutlemonde wrote: »
    ^^^ I didn't want to quote your post. You may want to edit your post so that your relative can't be identified or you. I hope this isn't seen as back seat modding just for your protection.
    I think he meant to close the inverted commas at the end of the line, not where he did. ;)


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    #136
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭acequion


    I've only just spotted this thread.

    Anyway, be be aware that ASTI SC are meeting [remotely] tomorrow at 10.30 am. So if you haven't already done so, get on to your SC rep with your concerns. Also worth getting onto your local TD.

    Whatever happens or has to happen and whatever we agree to, there's no doubt that the handling of this and the timing of the announcement is disastrous.

    So it's vital that every member has an input.


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    #137
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    acequion wrote: »
    I've only just spotted this thread.

    Anyway, be be aware that ASTI SC are meeting [remotely] tomorrow at 10.30 am. So if you haven't already done so, get on to your SC rep with your concerns. Also worth getting onto your local TD.

    Whatever happens or has to happen and whatever we agree to, there's no doubt that the handling of this and the timing of the announcement is disastrous.

    So it's vital that every member has an input.

    Myself (and in fairness a lot of my colleagues ) contacted our SC rep yday
    I put a huge amount of time into thinking about and then writing the email
    I shouldn’t have bothered
    We all got the same type of message back

    The vast majority of teachers are behind teaching in July. This is at odds with everything I’ve seen read and heard from teachers
    The union may request that the the first two weeks in July and not the last two weeks in July are the class contact weeks. As again apparently a large number of teaches have made this request. Again I’ve seen , read and heard this from no teacher .
    This would 100% lead to the whole month of July being given over to teaching .
    Finally a ministerial order is being sought “preventing teaching “ in June
    LOL
    And again. That will only lead to those 2 weeks of “communication “ being bundled in to July

    So I stand by my original prediction
    Assuming the LC goes ahead which is by no means a foregone conclusion and in my email I stressed the need for the union to engage with the Dept on a plan for this event NOW

    The JC exams will go. They were always just a red herring/bargaining chip
    The whole month of July will be “classroom instruction “ time
    Of course as we keep getting told this is “optional “
    I live in the real world however

    I hope I am wrong . But I am hugely hugely disappointed in how the union have handled the whole covid19 situation from the start.
    Information vacuum


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    #138
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭acequion


    I agree broadly with what you say but I very much doubt the whole month of July will be given over to teaching. That literally doubles the risk for everyone which is counterproductive. A month of school being open for pretty much all staff and all 6th years, with teachers having to right to opt out for whatever "valid" reason is just too big an undertaking in this climate, imo. Especially when you consider that huge numbers of 6th years won't even come in. Just can't see that happening but your other predictions may come to pass.

    Secondly, let's not go bashing our union just yet. If they do a judas on this one and sell us down the river, maybe time to cancel membership. But in fairness there are some excellent people on the SC of ASTI and we have an excellent president and vice president who will their best for us. It's the members I despair of. Members constantly give in and members won't fight for their own rights. Just look at how these recent prosperous years were completely wasted when all unions should have gone all out for full pay equality as well as getting other recession cuts reversed. With our conditions so threadbare I'd fear for the future and this summer could end up the least of our worries. But let's hope not.


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    #139
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    acequion wrote: »
    I agree broadly with what you say but I very much doubt the whole month of July will be given over to teaching. That literally doubles the risk for everyone which is counterproductive. A month of school being open for pretty much all staff and all 6th years, with teachers having to right to opt out for whatever "valid" reason is just too big an undertaking in this climate, imo. Especially when you consider that huge numbers of 6th years won't even come in. Just can't see that happening but your other predictions may come to pass.

    Secondly, let's not go bashing our union just yet. If they do a judas on this one and sell us down the river, maybe time to cancel membership. But in fairness there are some excellent people on the SC of ASTI and we have an excellent president and vice president who will their best for us. It's the members I despair of. Members constantly give in and members won't fight for their own rights. Just look at how these recent prosperous years were completely wasted when all unions should have gone all out for full pay equality as well as getting other recession cuts reversed. With our conditions so threadbare I'd fear for the future and this summer could end up the least of our worries. But let's hope not.

    Agreed on membership in general
    But in this situation there was no engagement until now
    No opportunity given to membership to offer their opinions / constructive feedback BEFORE the minister dropped his bomb
    The “student union” surveyed their members nearly a month ago. A completely unscientific survey that should hold no water
    But the results of it are everywhere in the media

    Would something similar have been too much to ask for ?
    A survey around how we adapted to our working conditions , how we are coping etc etc ?

    Anyway you are correct
    Stepping back from this and looking at the situation as a whole
    It is worrying . No return to normality for a long time


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    #140
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,763 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    You don't get to choose who replies to threads.



    This is what you posted.

    This is what TUI have posted



    https://www.tui.ie/news/important-message-from-tui-president-seamus-lahart-%e2%80%93-factual-information-on-current-state-exams-situation-.13731.html

    There is zero mention of volunteering and you just decided that there wouldn't be any money to pay people. Money that would have been budgeted for the LC months ago. Calling your post a theory doesn't lend any credence to it. A system exists for supervising and marking exams which is contracted and paid work. Plenty of evidence to support that actual situation. None to support your 'theory'.

    A system exists in normal circumstances, these aren't normal circumstances.

    I'd expect exam corrections will be paid work as it won't be anything other than the usual numbers.

    I think there's a possibility the supervision won't be paid due to the numbers of supervisors that may be required. Social Distancing will mean more exam centres and more supervisors.

    Some say the JC supervisors could be used but will cutting groups in half even be enough? Probably not. Also some will withdraw from the scheme due to age/health/worry etc.

    How many students could you sit in the average hall or classroom at a safe distance from each other? Will they need to use conference centres in hotels? Special centres and scribes will require a different approach as well.

    This is where I think people might be asked to volunteer 4/5 days each, if they can. Due to numbers of supervisors that may be required.

    Might be wrong, but to jump down someone's throat with FFS, you're scaremongering, you'd only see this in the Daily Mail and you're starting rumours-kind of comments aren't really helpful.

    This is a thread where people can float opinions and, currently in a vacuum of information, it's all speculation.

    Thanks


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    #141
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    I tend to agree around the supervision tbh
    A lot of people who may have planned on doing it will not
    I can honestly see into members being asked to do their bit in “the national interest “
    I was kind of joking when I said that first
    But now I think it’s so crazy it might actually happen


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    #142
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    km79 wrote: »
    I tend to agree around the supervision tbh
    A lot of people who may have planned on doing it will not
    I can honestly see into members being asked to do their bit in “the national interest “
    I was kind of joking when I said that first
    But now I think it’s so crazy it might actually happen

    Definitely think primary school teachers will be dragged in somehow
    A lot of it to appease the public who seem to think we have done nothing for last month. But it will also decrease the size of groups doing exams if primary school teachers end up helping with supervision


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    #143
    HerrKuehn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    khalessi wrote: »
    Definitely think primary school teachers will be dragged in somehow
    A lot of it to appease the public who seem to think we have done nothing for last month. But it will also decrease the size of groups doing exams if primary school teachers end up helping with supervision

    Maybe they could look at formally finishing up primary school now, in return for the teachers helping out with supervision etc in the summer? There is really very little benefit to keeping primary schools running. There is also a huge variation in how it is being done. There is a weekly email from my kids school. It really has no value.


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    #144
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    HerrKuehn wrote: »
    Maybe they could look at formally finishing up primary school now, in return for the teachers helping out with supervision etc in the summer? There is really very little benefit to keeping primary schools running. There is also a huge variation in how it is being done. There is a weekly email from my kids school. It really has no value.

    Thank you for your input


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    #145
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,393 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    khalessi wrote: »
    Definitely think primary school teachers will be dragged in somehow
    A lot of it to appease the public who seem to think we have done nothing for last month. But it will also decrease the size of groups doing exams if primary school teachers end up helping with supervision
    The SNAs will probably be included in that too.
    The national interest question will have subsided by then when a certain degree of normality has resumed.
    What about the teacher who basically refuses? Lots of questions.


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    #146
    Paulbeth
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭Paulbeth


    HerrKuehn wrote: »
    Maybe they could look at formally finishing up primary school now, in return for the teachers helping out with supervision etc in the summer? There is really very little benefit to keeping primary schools running. There is also a huge variation in how it is being done. There is a weekly email from my kids school. It really has no value.

    I think there is benefit to bringing the primary school children back to school before September (on a staggered basis). I agree that the weekly emails/lists of work have little value but should 6th class children be sent off to 1st year without finishing primary school? Even 1 or 2 days a week/fortnight back at primary would be better than not returning to primary at all.


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    #147
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    I saw an interesting idea in the covid forum that the primary teachers should continue with their year group next year. That way you don’t need the same ‘getting to know you’ in September and teachers and students can hit the ground running. Apparently it could gain back time

    I know nothing about primary schools tho so maybe it wouldn’t be a runner


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    #148
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,763 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    TheDriver wrote: »
    The SNAs will probably be included in that too.
    The national interest question will have subsided by then when a certain degree of normality has resumed.
    What about the teacher who basically refuses? Lots of questions.

    If it were to happen requiring larger numbers of supervisors then you'd assume a teacher would have to volunteer

    Some would not be in a position to volunteer due to family commitments, health issues, family member with health issues etc


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    #149
    ethical
    Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭ethical


    Doing things in the national interest is great!
    No matter what we do the bad press will be there.
    Eaten bread is soon forgotten..........as we see in the small print at the end of the Ministers press release last Friday.
    All this crap about wearing the shirt etc is a whole load of cock and bull,the z list celebrities and want to be celebs who are saying it, will not do one little bit.
    Battering away at a keyboard for the past 3 weeks and then this crap is thrown in your face.

    Just take a look at the Consultants in the so called Private Hospitals who are up in arms and will not conform to the new "wearing the shirt crap"!


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    #150
    ethical
    Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭ethical


    I see the JMB are now rolling in with "we will not let the Leaving Cert students down"....very easy to do from afar.....the dirty fcukers would not stand in the front line!


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    #151
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    ethical wrote: »
    I see the JMB are now rolling in with "we will not let the Leaving Cert students down"....very easy to do from afar.....the dirty fcukers would not stand in the front line!

    "The two weeks engagement with teachers in school before the examinations start will facilitate the completion of course and project work that may be outstanding, and allow for appropriate direction and instruction prior to the start of the written exams."

    Done deal. No mention of voluntary. No mention of teachers at all bar being in school.

    "determine how best to organise the postponed Junior Cycle school-based examination."

    hhmmmmm


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