Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

rainbowtrout

awny wrote: »

My understanding is that this cannot be imposed on teachers so it’ll be voluntary. Do you think teachers with underlying health conditions or in other at risk groups should be docked pay or have to use sick leave/unpaid leave to be excused from something which involves working on their annual leave?

That maybe so, but the OP is under the impression that her sub can just continue her work. Whether she goes in to teach in July or not, is not really the issue here, she is being paid during the summer as she will be back from maternity leave and the sub is not employed any longer, the sub wouldn't get paid to do voluntary work so why would the sub work in July?

awny

Millem wrote: »

It is not annual leave.....they are school closures.

Miller, you can check. We aren’t contracted to work July. Questions around 2 weeks in June. Not July.

Millem

awny wrote: »

Miller, you can check. We aren’t contracted to work July. Questions around 2 weeks in June. Not July.

It is my understanding from the outcome of previous court cases (maternity leave and school closures).....with regard to annual leave, we are entitled to 20 days plus bank holidays.

awny

Millem wrote: »

It is my understanding from the outcome of previous court cases (maternity leave and school closures).....with regard to annual leave, we are entitled to 20 days plus bank holidays.

That’s in relation to mat leave. That is why the dept had to consult with the unions. The unions can say no.

https://www.asti.ie/news/clarification-re-asti-and-state-exams-announcement/

You can read about 5 paragraphs done. The proposals cannot be enforced by the department.

Millem

awny wrote: »

That’s in relation to mat leave. That is why the dept had to consult with the unions. The unions can say no.

Why would annual leave in relation to maternity leave be any different to annual leave in general?

awny

Millem wrote: »

Why would annual leave in relation to maternity leave be any different to annual leave in general?

Here’s a link I just attached above.


https://www.asti.ie/news/clarification-re-asti-and-state-exams-announcement/

It cannot be enforced.

awny

Millem wrote: »

Why would annual leave in relation to maternity leave be any different to annual leave in general?

The summer like you said is school
Closures but the teachers aren’t contacted to teacher during the school closures.

Millem

awny wrote: »

Here’s a link I just attached above.


https://www.asti.ie/news/clarification-re-asti-and-state-exams-announcement/

It cannot be enforced.

I still don’t know how annual leave in general and annual leave on maternity leave are different.
If school closures are considered annual leave then all teachers are entitled to 18 weeks annual leave?

Anyway I don’t want to derail this thread.

Nobody knows what state we will be in by July/August.

History Queen

awny wrote: »

My understanding is that this cannot be imposed on teachers so it’ll be voluntary. Do you think teachers with underlying health conditions or in other at risk groups should be docked pay or have to use sick leave/unpaid leave to be excused from something which involves working on their annual leave?

Oh I didn't realise it was voluntary and my own understanding is there is a difference between annual leave and school closure. Ie. We are entitled to 20 days annual leave and public holidays but are paid during school closuressuch as summer.holidays. the distinction came up the time they did away with adding school holidays missed to maternity leave. (I understand that was challenged by the INTO and they won but an appeal was lodgedby the Dept. I'm not sure what the status of that case is now).


Also I'm not advocating for one side or the other, none of this is fair. I just, having been a mat leave sub years ago, would assume that a subs contract would end at the end of approved leave as normal and that the teacher on leave would return as usual. I could be totally wrong. This is unprecedented after all.

o1s1n

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Tbh I think this is a court case waiting to happen and I do not see why the minister has taken this stance. Music and Home ec get 100%. But just because I picked technology I had to do an extra exam on top of my subjects on top of all the stress of moving the leaving cert. this is fundamentally unfair and I underperformed as a result....

So if you picked music or home Ec you are now guaranteed 100% in the practical, whereas anyone else who picked another subject (ie Art, Engineering etc) is automatically going to get less as they've to sit a practical?

That's madness!

awny

History Queen wrote: »

Oh I didn't realise it was voluntary and my own understanding is there is a difference between annual leave and school closure. Ie. We are entitled to 20 days annual leave and public holidays but are paid during school closuressuch as summer.holidays. the distinction came up the time they did away with adding school holidays missed to maternity leave. (I understand that was challenged by the INTO and they won but an appeal was lodgedby the Dept. I'm not sure what the status of that case is now).


Also I'm not advocating for one side or the other, none of this is fair. I just, having been a mat leave sub years ago, would assume that a subs contract would end at the end of approved leave as normal and that the teacher on leave would return as usual. I could be totally wrong. This is unprecedented after all.

Was just about to reply to Millem re the mat leave. A case was brought by the INTO in relation to the holidays in lieu for mat leave to the equality tribunal and won the case. The dept are appealing it. So I’d say the dept are on shaky ground with this whole school closures/annual leave malarkey.

https://www.into.ie/2019/11/07/employment-tribunal-victory-for-into-members/

Yep I agree re subs contract but I’d imagine that the department is going to have to put some plan in place for it.

History Queen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That maybe so, but the OP is under the impression that her sub can just continue her work. Whether she goes in to teach in July or not, is not really the issue here, she is being paid during the summer as she will be back from maternity leave and the sub is not employed any longer, the sub wouldn't get paid to do voluntary work so why would the sub work in July?

This would be my understanding too, particularly if the workis voluntary. You cannot expect subs to work unpaid. The rest of us will be on payroll. Does makeme wonder what would happen if this coincides with the start of my own maternity leave. I'm due to go on leave in July. I'll stay as long as I can but you're required to go on leave 2weeks prior to your due date.

History Queen

Sorry just to add for the Op, your union would probably be best placed to advise or at least to enquire onyour behalf. I'd contact them if I were you.

Millem

awny wrote: »

Was just about to reply to Millem re the mat leave. A case was brought by the INTO in relation to the holidays in lieu for mat leave to the equality tribunal and won the case. The dept are appealing it. So I’d say the dept are on shaky ground with this whole school closures/annual leave malarkey.

https://www.into.ie/2019/11/07/employment-tribunal-victory-for-into-members/

Yep I agree re subs contract but I’d imagine that the department is going to have to put some plan in place for it.

But yet nothing has changed in relation to maternity leave.....I am due myself at the end of August.

awny

Millem wrote: »

But yet nothing has changed in relation to maternity leave.....I am due myself at the end of August.

Me too, I’m in the end of Sept. I’d imagine it was wrong what they did and it’ll eventually be rectified.

Millem

awny wrote: »

Me too, I’m in the end of Sept. I’d imagine it was wrong what they did and it’ll eventually be rectified.

Wouldn’t hold me breath.......this is going on 7 year...I will have had 3 babies in this time.

JJJackal

awny wrote: »

My understanding is that this cannot be imposed on teachers so it’ll be voluntary. Do you think teachers with underlying health conditions or in other at risk groups should be docked pay or have to use sick leave/unpaid leave to be excused from something which involves working on their annual leave?

Yes.

In the HSE most annual leave is cancelled. Those at risk have to work in often high risk situations.

Teaching students in a class room is likely a low risk situation

awny

JJJackal wrote: »

Yes.

In the HSE most annual leave is cancelled. Those at risk have to work in often high risk situations.

Teaching students in a class room is likely a low risk situation

You’ll also note the health workers in at risk groups are not being put into
High risk situations. I know a doctor who is pregnant and is not dealing with Covid patients. They are working with other non Covid patients.

Also, unless you’re a professor of public health, I don’t think you can define it as low risk. If it was low risk all schools and all students would be back.

TheDriver

I'm setting up this thread as the one stop shop for all discusion about the state exams, preparing for these exams and the format this may take. Discussion can also take place about Mat leave contracts and factual information regarding these.

Usual forum rules also apply. See post #1

Dickie10

to be honest i think the LC will be pushed back to near christmas. I dont think we will be back in school in september for the new school year, more likely january 21. people talking about pubs and restaurants not opening until december 2020.

TheDriver

Dickie10 wrote: »

to be honest i think the LC will be pushed back to near christmas. I dont think we will be back in school in september for the new school year, more likely january 21. people talking about pubs and restaurants not opening until december 2020.

I think this is key to the issues out there, "people talking" is happening a lot which unfortunately is nothing more than speculation. Even the CMO wouldn't bet on anything but the next 2 weeks will tell a lot.
If things are closed until Dec 2020, the LC will be a very small thing to be worrying about.

km79

I would urge all asti members to contact their local SC rep and make their feelings known
I know we are on holidays but this has to be called out for the mess that it is
And is affecting both student AND teacher wellbeing

CraftySue

Dickie10 wrote: »

to be honest i think the LC will be pushed back to near christmas. I dont think we will be back in school in september for the new school year, more likely january 21. people talking about pubs and restaurants not opening until december 2020.

I guess we will be watching other countries for the next couple of weeks, especially Denmark, who are coming out of their lockdown by opening schools.

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2020/0413/1130187-spain-cautiously-emerges-from-economic-hibernation/
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0413/1130077-lockdown-exit-austria-and-denmark-take-first-steps/

happywithlife

Just a subject specific bug bear but there are NO leaving cert home economics practicals outstanding. Leaving Cert Home Ec coursework was submitted Nov 2019 & corrected then. I do believe even the minister referred to home ec practicals in the context of leaving certs and it's not entirely confidence inspiring is it. I presume marks awarded then will stand and they won't get full marks like what happened to Orals.

Leaving Cert Applied HCT (Hotel Catering & Tourism) practicals are outstanding as should have taken place in May. I presume these are what are being referred to. I don't have HCT currently but had it in the past. If the current proposal is to prep students for both practical & written exams in their 2 weeks contact in June/July its completly unworkable.

On Another note anyone wondering what happens to students who traditionally are offered places in other further education institutions prior to traditional exams? Were these places offered yet? I'm thinking not but just in case they were would such students even turn up for exams then?

km79

km79 wrote: »

I would urge all asti members to contact their local SC rep and make their feelings known
I know we are on holidays but this has to be called out for the mess that it is
And is affecting both student AND teacher wellbeing

Took me 45 minutes to articulate all my concerns and general grievances !

Rosita

JJJackal wrote: »

Yes.

In the HSE most annual leave is cancelled. Those at risk have to work in often high risk situations.

Teaching students in a class room is likely a low risk situation

I don't get the relevance of the amount of risk involved. The reason annual leave is cancelled for HSE workers (and I'll take your word on that) is that there is an extreme health emergency going on with very high numbers of infection and consequently high numbers in hospital and ICU. The high risk job v low risk job point you make is a red herring. Any imposition on teachers' holidays is not informed by the riskiness of the work.

rainbowtrout

happywithlife wrote: »

On Another note anyone wondering what happens to students who traditionally are offered places in other further education institutions prior to traditional exams? Were these places offered yet? I'm thinking not but just in case they were would such students even turn up for exams then?

PLCs??? There is no standardised entry requirements for PLCs. Some of the bigger centres who would be oversubscribed can pick and choose and use the LC to determine entry. Smaller centres will take applicants regardless of results if they need to fill courses etc.

If LC goes ahead as proposed, PLC centres might also have a delay to the start of the academic year anyway so could still use LC results for entry if they wanted. They can be a lot more flexible than most.

ethical

The Dept has thrown the WELLBEING card freely about for the past 3 or 4 years without it ever,ever doing anything for teachers.
Its time now that we threw it back in their faces! when I saw the "PROPOSALS" for the revised State Exams I honestly thought it was one of my friends that was playing an April Fools joke on me.
We all agree that the STUDENT is the most important person here,yet they are expected to study until 2nd September,yes ,the 2nd September when the revised LC finishes.

Could you imagine the MENTAL HEALTH TIMEBOMB the Dept has readied here,is it not difficult enough for the students to study until the end of June every year but now to get them to continue working through the Summer as well?

WELLBEING,what WELLBEING,are we being fair to the students?

(Can I add that I think the present Minister for Education is one of the more reasonable we've had in a long time,it would not be too difficult for him considering his predecesssor!, but I think the Media forced his hand to get some sort of announcement out before the Easter Weekend and this is the hotch-potch we are left with now.It is still in our hands to save the Students and make proper and calculated representations to the Union meeting tomorrow.I know the ASTI are meeting,I'm not sure about the other crowd with the carry on they've been up to of late.)

Millem

happywithlife wrote: »

Just a subject specific bug bear but there are NO leaving cert home economics practicals outstanding. Leaving Cert Home Ec coursework was submitted Nov 2019 & corrected then. I do believe even the minister referred to home ec practicals in the context of leaving certs and it's not entirely confidence inspiring is it. I presume marks awarded then will stand and they won't get full marks like what happened to Orals.

Leaving Cert Applied HCT (Hotel Catering & Tourism) practicals are outstanding as should have taken place in May. I presume these are what are being referred to. I don't have HCT currently but had it in the past. If the current proposal is to prep students for both practical & written exams in their 2 weeks contact in June/July its completly unworkable.

On Another note anyone wondering what happens to students who traditionally are offered places in other further education institutions prior to traditional exams? Were these places offered yet? I'm thinking not but just in case they were would such students even turn up for exams then?

Happy with life does the minister mean the textiles LC elective project?
Only a handful of schools in Ireland choose it.

Rosita

ethical wrote: »

The Dept has thrown the WELLBEING card freely about for the past 3 or 4 years without it ever,ever doing anything for teachers.

I remember one of these well-being training days where there was even a 'well-being tree' to put yellow post-its on every so often. Anyway, childish and patronising as that was you'd get over it.

The bit that irritated me was the occasional mention of "your own well-being" - yet no mention of maybe a half day for teachers' well-being where activities could be organised, or even permission to allocate a few Croke Park hours for teacher well-being. Looks like well-being for teachers has not yet cropped up in Finland or whichever country they are copying when they conjure up their ideas.