Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ahh come on, SOB was World Class and I love the guy but he is hardly that anymore. huge amount of minutes on the clock



Zebo? maybe to Munster fans....he is very good player but not World Class



Aki is not World Class. He is very good but plenty of better centres in the World


Ireland still has very few WC players. Murray and Sexton would have been but not anymore> Furlong would still be in with a shout but Sinklar after WC is probably ahead of him.

We have a huge array of excellent players.

We agree here. I think a good few of the lads are overrated. Zebo and Aki are international class is what i should have said World class on an Irish basis - both good enough to command 500k plus contracts.

But this is my problem, if a guy goes off the boil how do we move on from him. Murray for example. Hopefully he comes back, but if not? The lads on serious wedge (deservedly so) but when does that run out? When does his "world class" central contract, undroppable aura finish? Like when he took over from Stringer...i personally don't think we'll see that again. The Larmour call in the WC was that and it was botched. I think CC and sponsorship play a part.

aloooof wrote: »

You pick someone else.



At the end of his contract.

This is all really basic stuff.

Like Larmour was picked yeah? So he keeps getting picked regardless. Until it runs out..and i didn't mean literally. I mean that the factors that allowed him take over from Stringer are quickly disappearing. He's on so much money, with very good deals and a strong hand that Casey hasn't a chance. We get platitudes of "ah if he's good enough"..now Murray is world class but he has to have a good season. Ditto Henshaw. Jimmy O'Brien is the Casey in that case. We need to be ruthless. Naholo is 28 and already running amok . Julian Savea is still a beast. Not even in the picture in NZ. We'll be playing Murray and Henshaw till they are 38 if this continues.

We're ringfencing lads and then backing ourselves into corners and thinking like we're back in Eddie's "golden generation" that we've nobody else. We're already hearing things like Kellehers not old enough, Ryan too young to captain.

It this type of thinking that makes me hope Aki goes.

Its all basic stuff, sure. Look we'll never agree so lets just stop.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Dismiss out of hand the possibility that players are signing contracts with clauses guaranteeing them selection? Yes I will because it is a mind-numbingly stupid idea. There is not a sports team on the planet who would agree to that.

So can you explain the continued selection of out of form central contract holders, consistently going back to Eddie's time? And i said squad selection, not team. Anyway a central contract, even without a clause (whic i agree doesn't likely exist) guarantee them a berth in nearly every case.

There's not many sports teams on the planet that would create a two tier system with special ring fenced contracts. 11 sweetheart deals out of 172, especially when half of them are highly questionable. Most reward form and the best players. We've had only a few players over the years that are the best of the best. Drico, Paulie, ROG, Sexton, Murray, SOB and Furlong. Heaslip perhaps.

Might be better spreading the money over say 30 players and having a bonus system for actually playing and performing for Ireland .

Faugheen wrote: »

Let’s just let them all go for whatever money they want and weaken the provinces why don’t we?

You have absolutely zero foresight here. If you bend the rule for one player then it opens the floodgates for many of them to leave.

If you want to play for Ireland you play in Ireland. It’s a rule that has kept all the best players at the provinces and I, as a Leinster fan, much rather it that way because I support my province before I support my country, and I’m sure I speak for a lot of people when I say that whether they’re from Dublin, Limerick, Belfast or Galway.

Why would you risk that for someone who is past it (SOB), not that good (Zebo) or someone who isn’t a nailed on starter (Aki)? It makes absolutely zero sense and anyone who wants to see this is a selfish fan, rather than a fan of Irish Rugby.

Irish Rugby isn’t just about the national team. The sooner some people realise that the better.

Your last point is true. We have gone too Irish focused, i'll agree. I said make it 50 caps or so if needs be. I'm not saying its a good thing, only that it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as bizarre. Most of my arguments can be found on my posts. They sort of fit together. For one i believe we have hamstrung ourselves too much with the provincial system. And without cutting deals like NZ have done with Harlequinns say, it will only get worse as more and more huge talents come online. You can see it in Connacht;so instead of certain Leinster lads joining they take punts on lads.

Instead of say Abladze or Byrne playing champions cup they sit on benches while Connacht hand lads like Healy and Niyi great opportunities. Which is brilliant but also makes no sense, I just don't understand it. Thats on top of the CC thing. Obviously we need strong squad and players don't want to move, i get that. But look at Kelleher's move back east. Crazy.

Take Rob Kearney; the guy should have went to France two years ago. For the good of himself and Irish rugby. Now he won't and im certain he'll get a start in the six nations and hang on like a bad smell for another few years. We have Sexton saying he'll play till he's 40. I love Jono, played with the guy, a Mary's clubmate but theres not a hope that is good for anybody. With each passing year the higher money is making it more difficult to make these hard decisions both for the player and the IRFU. We can't transfer them out so unless somebody sits them down and saids its time, then the Best debacle of playing at 37 on a central contract will continue.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Wales National Dual Contracts?



What PR puff? They don't announce them, you have to decipher who is on them from the exact wording of the press release.

It is a way of removing the highest paid players off the provincial books essentially - not much more.

Wales, really? Wales with four of their squad in England and past players gone abroad? And yeah exactly the press releases specifically mention IRFU. That should be done away with.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Eh, yes Wales. Because they wanted to stop their players going abroad but the regions couldn't afford to keep them. So they brought in special contracts for the highest paid players to reduce the burden on the regions and in order to keep them in Wales.

Sound at all familiar?

They are clearly not a "PR puff piece" because there is no PR behind them. Without digging into it I wouldn't even know who has one and who doesn't.

Yeah this all stems from the idea that Irish rugby "dies" and the notion is bizarre, if we allow these lads go abroad...see the problem with this? I mean i'm also pro privatization of the provinces or at least part funding but Wales also allow players go abroad. Hell, even if the IRFU came out and said it i'd have less of an issue. The whole hidden unwritten rule is f ****ing stupid cloak and daggers. Ditto what your describing with the contracts. I'm sure Rhys Ruddock knows how much more POM earns than him for example. Do away with CC and make them wholly provincial, backboned by private investment like Sexton and the irfu.

Whatever we are doing, in a World context, for Ireland, it isn't working.

And people dismissing stuff out of hand, will be (like they were this year)wrong in a few years.

jacothelad wrote: »

The rule wasn't broken for Sexton. It didn't 'apply' when he went to France. Guys like Geordan Murphy, Simon and Guy Easterby and Johne Murphy were selected while playing outside Ireland. The decision to only use home based players was introduced while Sexton was abroad and it is a sound one for two reasons.



1) It makes our provinces likely to be stronger, more successful and therefore more lucrative as they should have the top players available. This 'reason' is massively diluted by how infrequently some of the better players play in the League.


2) The players are always available for Ireland training camps.

But as SOB said recently, there is no written rule. Its exactly the reason the IRFU should just come out and bloody say it.

Yeah the London Irish link needs to be explored. Even loan options

aloooof wrote: »

So you're admitting a clause guaranteeing them selection likely doesn't exit? Progress of a kind.

As an example of a play who didn't make the squad while on a central contract - Jack McGrath.

I just said who's to say it doesn't. Like the moving abroad disqualification doesn't exist, officially. We just don't know what goes on.

Yeah there is a few examples.

I don't know its a good problem to have. I think Penny, Jimmy O'Brien, Doris, Casey, Harry Byrne among a few others will really put it to the test. We have already seen the wrong decision made (Keanrey and Best) in the last few weeks, one which has been argued for years. Maybe it will naturally align and players will get phased out.

We will see in the six nations how the players react. It will be exciting for that alone. The CC players need huge seasons.

Faugheen wrote: »

I don’t understand the Kearney point. It was only in the World Cup that anyone legitimately put up their hand to take the 15 jersey off Kearney. Until then, numerous people had a chance to stake their claim and every time he wasn’t in the team he was missed.

Even with Larmour’s form in the World Cup, Kearney was also playing well. It’s a complete nonsense point. How many times in the last 24 months did Larmour get a go at full-back to disappoint? Be dismissed as ‘not good enough’? How much better did we look when Kearney came back into the team?

There are players you could point the finger at such as Kearney, Sexton or Best but nobody under them put a solid claim in to start week-in, week-out ahead of the incumbents. Only recently has Larmour put his hand up.

It’s very easy to criticise the central contracts issue but now we’re in a situation at hooker where we hope Ronan Kelleher is the real deal or one of Scannell or Herring step up big time. That’s not Best’s fault nor is it the IRFU’s. Scannell, Herring and Cronin were given plenty of chances but ultimately none of them impressed. Even at 37 Best was still the best option we had. Likewise Carbery, Carty or Byrne at out-half.

I disagree completely. Larmour should have been selected, did enough.

And Cronin is in the bad books with Joe, its well known. If he's good enough to be Leinster hooker he's bloody good enough to be Irish hooker. Best was a mistake. There was no way the man should have been playing in the World Cup. Herring isn't good enough. Ronan does look the real deal so thats promising. I'd cap him in the 6 Nations.

I was waiting for the "if they're good enough they'll start". It's patently untrue in our system going on decades. Quinlan, Cullen, Jennings, O'Connor, Sexton himself, Ross, Brennan, Murphy, TOH and so on. Conway in the stands another one. A ****ing joke and i just hope Farrell comes in and changes it. But all we hear from certain people is there will be none. Jerry Flannery recently saying it will/should be the same. It's mind boggling. Best, as good as he could be on a given day, is an example of it, he wasn't fit to tie Wood's, flannery's shoe lace. But once Flannery was gone, he was in squads and suddenly one day he was an undroppable captain. And Cronin got such a bad deal. Like loads of lads Best got a pass, and Cronin among others was held up to some other standard. In any other country Cronin's running ability gets him a start, a criminal underuse of a unique talent...**** thrower yeah, but as Wood has admitted himself he couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo.

Faugheen wrote: »

Kearney and Larmour were both playing well, so I don’t know why it was the case that Larmour 100% had to start. Why didn’t he show that form earlier in the season when we were trying people out at 15?

Up until the World Cup, Kearney was still by far and away our best 15 because none of the others that were tried out put their hand up.

Cronin stank the place out anytime he started for Ireland. His best performances in green were off the bench and even then his line out was poor. He simply never replicated his form for Leinster to Ireland so why should he start when he was given chance after chance? When it came down to it, Best was the best of a very average bunch. All the others were given enough chances and they all failed.

Conway is a point I can accept. He should not have been in the stands because Stockdale (in particular) and Earls weren’t doing the business.

However, when it comes to our centrally contracted players, either they were still playing well (in the case of Kearney) or none of the alternatives were playing well when the incumbent was out of form (Sexton, Best).

There was one game where Best’s darts were criticised and in that game he won all his line-outs. Some players are ok a hiding to nothing. I’m not saying Best was the best hooker in the world but who staked a claim to take the jersey off him? Absolutely nobody.

The last point is fair. Cronin was terrible against Italy but some of the issues are well known such as the Marmion thing. Joe didn't get along with him like he didn't with a few others. McCloskey, Zebo all not his type of player in every sense there was others i have heard as well. As trimble said if you didn't play along in camp schmidt it was a very unpleasant place. And unforgiving. fair enough. He never really forgave TOD for not touring that summer. He didn't cut them completely but he never gave them a shot. And some of it is unforgivable, such as McCLoskey's exclusion.

For me personally though i want my rugby players doing more than the basics. its why Furlong is so good. Porter the same. Why Healy easily took back the jersey from a so so carrier in McGrath. This is what is so exciting about Kelleher, excellent basics and an impressive running game.

I disagree with Kearney but i won't go there. He did well to come back, was excellent in parts of 2018. But in the World Cup he wasn't good enough. He got a pass, as usual like ROG did in 2011 and one or two in 2015. Larmour should have started, along with Conway. Would have still lost the match but we'd be better for it.

aloooof wrote: »

That's precisely the point tho. Any time Cronin started for Ireland, he didn't deliver on the basics. It doesn't matter how good he is with ball in hand if his darts and scrummaging aren't up to scratch.

I'd argue having a hooker who can't carry is damaging to your team. Its one of the traditional, free roles, and carrying position. Best was an good thrower, an excellentscrummager and jackler. And leader of course. But yeah there was a dearth of options.

To bring it back to the present and Ireland, its why Kelleher is so exciting.