Discovery 3x13 - 'That Hope Is You, Part 2' ~~ { ** Spoilers Within ** }

I have to join the chorus of people here - although I enjoy Discovery as some random space show I begin to loathe it when I associate it with trek.

A lot of points have already been mentioned but my own views -

- just how big is Discovery? TOS Enterprise looked bigger than it in S1 and S2 yet there's oceans of empty space for the turbo lifts. Come to think of it it's completely disproportionate when you notice that the shuttlebay door is the entire height of the ship yet interior shots depict it to be no more than ~3 floors tall.

- the Tardis problem again. How is the Warp Core in its own cavernous space in the ship with apparently no way of accessing it - like the Data Core; another place we've never seen. Come to think of it why is Disco like that when every other fed ship we've seen places the core in Engineering.

- the Enterprise D's turbo lifts had far more realistic proportions, in particular the time Picard got stuck in there with the kids. On Discovery it looks like you'll fall to your death inside the lift as soon as the power goes given that there's nothing holding onto it. The Ent E had that huge space in Nemesis but I put that down to the fact that the space there was being reserved for future fitting (like stellar cartography in Generations)

- Burnham. She could have been a brilliant character, very much like Spock/Data/Keira if they had kept her to being a hero every once in a blue moon. She should also be the new name for Mary Sue as with the exception of the very first episode all of her decisions have worked out. No matter what. Anyone else in Trek would not have the same luck and would have been killed/jailed/ignored if they tried to do anything she did.

- Burnham's motely crew of merry individuals - they were in what I presume is Engineering when they get the message from Burnham - not one of them could do anything about gaining access to the ship. Whatever happened to breaking as much as they could in there to disable the ship.

- The crew are trapped on the lower decks and can't bypass the turbo lift lock. five minutes later - Burnham cracks it without a bother to escape with Book.

- Command Codes - why weren't these used by the Admiral to disable Discovery?

- they still didn't explain how the chain were able to beam on board a ship with shields up or how to gain access to the ships core functions.

- I'm still trying to figure wth the red angel plot of season 2 has to anything in season 3. Sure it helped prevent control rule the galaxy but could Burnham mom not have tried to liaise with time police of the 30th century and prevent all of this bs to begin with?

- Burnham's smug look when she's in the Admirals office. 'Captain? Me?' you knew from the look she was expecting it.

I could go on. I repeat the same comments I made on the previous seasons as well as Picard - why is there such an insistence on avoiding close ups of any other ships or even speaking to other ships crews. I still actually can't figure out what the Fed headquarters layout is nor can I picture where it fits in that space 'bubble'.

I've always wanted a return to post Nemesis trek but why did they decide to make it a pre-TOS show set so far beyond Nemesis? The entire Disco story could have easily been placed in a Lower Decks/Nemesis era trek. Picard also could have been amazing if it weren't for Patrick Stewart's demands for it being something that the fans never wanted. Strange New Worlds will be good but it isn't what I want. I would have gladly taken their cast in the post Nemesis era on a different starship.

I really hope Yeoh returns to the Picard era and it's discovered that the Disco is in the JJ-Verse where Vulcan was restored and the Prime timeline has a very different future.

Sadly it looks like it will only ever be Lower Decks that will let me experience that. The writers there are leagues ahead.

Apologies for the length of the post.

GreeBo wrote: »

In TNG: Disaster we see Picard and 3 kids climb out of s turbo lift and up the lift shafts... Where did that all go?

It reminded me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJkZR6OzXIA

That let's the lifts go up and down but never accounted how a lift could go across and down.

The lift scene makes sense to me. It slso makes sense in the 32c with an upgraded ship.

Maybe Discovery is part Tardis in the future

duffman13 wrote: »

"I've been holding my breath for 6 minutes since I was a kid" what a random skill

With Osiryas death the chain fell apart etc, they've literally destroyed another potential store line. Why not just say the chain were in disarray, power struggle whatever that makes them a little weaker but they appear no threat now

And that was one episode after pointing out that the chain is a big organization with some sort of ruling body and multiple worlds. Just after building her up beyond panto villain nonsense they go back to square one

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

I’d actually encourage you to watch the last episode for the laugh/dismay and to see just how right you were.

OK feck it, will watch today and report back later

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK feck it, will watch today and report back later

It's trying to keep up with Trek forums that keeps me coming back too

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Season 3 drew me back with the prospect of a new beginning for the crew and the writers, but the same failings emerged, where they stumble on good ideas without ever exploring them in a compelling fashion.

- A Federation where scarcity is a thing , unexplored(as of this season), and with the Discovery of a planet full of Dilithium, mostly resolved .
- What does the Starfleet look like in the 31st century , its a bubble full of Starships we never properly see, who boldly go nowhere for the entire season.
- What did Burnham get up to with Book the year she was alone in the 31st century, will she leave Discovery to be with Book, no , and sadly no.
- What are the Cardassians,Klingons, etc up to 900 years in the future , we don't get so much as get a scene setting scene.
- Theres probably more but that's enough for now.

As to whether ill be back for season 4 , it would be foolish of me to say no , its trek so ill give it a chance to win me back. But if doesn't use this opportunity to go episodic and continues its failed attempts at serialisation, ill tap out and wait for Strange New Worlds .

Yet it had so much potential and yet they made a balls of it.
I am the same as you I will go give Season 4 ago but if they mess that up that's it.
What are the Cardassians,Klingons, etc up to 900 years in the future , we don't get so much as get a scene setting scene.
Also the the Andorians, the Bajorans, the Breen, the Borg, species 8472, the Tellarite, the Ferengi, Nausicans etc and that's only Alpha Quadrant species what about all the Delta Quadrant species too and of course the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant.
Is the Bajoran Wormhole still there?

Also is Risa still around?

alchemist33 wrote: »

Did anybody enjoy it? Just wondering, as it seems the majority on reddit love it and are frequently in tears at the antics of the characters. I know it's hard to chip in when everyone else seems to have a different view, but do speak up.

On TrekBBS there are very few in the middle. It's either 10/10 for every episode, people who hate it and then the odd anti "woke" people who make it hard for those of us who dislike it for genuine reasons.

I usually try keep an open mind and be in the middle but by the end of each season I have always ended up drifting to the full on f**k this crap side as all the little issues start to mount

Speaking of the Red Angel, wheres the suit?

Or is the time machine still buried 6inches below the dirt where she crash landed?

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

I've given up on r/startrek for anything but utter praise and breathless tears for every episode. It is really remarkable. r/daystrominstitute is a bit better, but not by much. To be honest I'll give any Trek a fair shake, but aside from my own eyes and this thread I would be convinced that it's just me that has any criticisms of the show. As breezy said above, there's no middle ground, it's either the most emotionally moving piece of television ever, or it's the most terrible piece of crap ever written.

Personally I'd give it a consistent 4/10, with some of those points simply being the Trek name. I don't buy into the "watch the Orville for real trek" crap, not a fan of that show either (though I gave up after season 1), neither do I buy the argument that all the critics are complaining about it being too "woke". Yes, it's far too on the nose (Culberts "We'll make sure everyone can see you" is literally speaking to the audience, and wasn't really necessary, as an audience we can get nuance and subtext), but also being critical of that lack of nuance isn't necessarily because of the nature of what's being said, it's the ham fisted manner in which it's being done.

I think the Seven discussion earlier is a prime example of it. I don't think the majority of viewers really give a toss either way about whether she is gay/bi/whatever, the issue is that the scene was thrown in with a character she had zero history with nor any interaction with during the storyline. It may not have been the intention of the writers, but it comes across as just something thrown in at the last minute for the sake of having it. Wouldn't have taken much work to actually give them a small bit of a development up to that point. It's the same issue with Culbery and Gray, it immediately jumps to hugs and tears, yet there was no actual engagement really between Culbert and Adira, let alone Grey, so it feels unearned. Change it to Stamets and there's more of a reasonable development for it since Stamets is who Adira opened up to and talked to about Grey, but unless I'm wrong there was never such engagement with Culbert. It's just unearned attempts at emotional beats that aren't needed, but then stick out like sore thumbs

Something weird has happened this season where Culber and Stamets have just become one person speaking from two bodies. Like that example you gave, it feels like "well he's Stamet's partner, so they're interchangable emotionally, right?", which obviously they're not. Stamets used to be snippy and a bit neurotic, but now he and Culber just have the same zen-guru voice and emotional guide role. Which on top of being lazy, is doing themselves out of dramatic tension and plot development. You can much more from a more short tempered but incredibly smart fella being partnered with a more empathetic and emotionally aware guy. You get to discuss different aspects of whatever conversation it is, and see two points of view. Instead the way they've gone just means that two other characters get to have a "you're special", or "it was you all along" moment at the same time.

Which is the larger problem with the show, everyone just says the thing required in the scene, or to be a foil for whatever action is about to take place. No one makes choices based on who their character has set them out to be. Like, we're used to seeing a certain amount of this in all Trek to disguise exposition, where the pieces of the plan are built out by different people, as if its a conversation leading to a shared conclusion. Normally, it's, say, Picard asking a question, and Geordi answers with an idea, Riker questions a technical element of it, Data clarifies with a solution, and away we go. But in Discovery, it's just a series of statements randomly assigned to whoever is in the room, without any tie to who they are or what experience their character should be bringing to the table.

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Something weird has happened this season where Culber and Stamets have just become one person speaking from two bodies. Like that example you gave, it feels like "well he's Stamet's partner, so they're interchangable emotionally, right?", which obviously they're not. Stamets used to be snippy and a bit neurotic, but now he and Culber just have the same zen-guru voice and emotional guide role.

I was actually going to say exactly that, it's like they think that partners/husbands/wives etc. speak with the same voice. Which is patently untrue (unless I'm going wrong somewhere, which is entirely possible!!)

I think the space cowboy would have beaten Book in their fights in the turbo lift if he didn’t keep pausing to say something stupid.
Though I actually quite liked that character/actor.

strandroad wrote: »

I am parallel-watching Voyager at the moment and imagining how boards would absolutely skewer every episode of it for bad writing, lazy costumes, sameness of plots etc...

I rewatched Voyager last year. Was my third time watching the series from start to finish. While it uses the episodic formula, it follows a story throughout making only a handful of episodes you could watch out of place. Good writing, character development and their relationships were built over time and made sense. Enjoy.

I've been rewatching StarGate SG1 the past few weeks. Good times.

strandroad wrote: »

Oh yes, I am not disparaging Voyager by any means (although the treatment of Seven and Jeri Ryan there is a topic for a reason), merely saying that ST series have their sins. STD is guilty of ADHD and trying too hard but then I stopped watching DS9 once because it was getting so stale - I could draw the layouts of the command centre and the entire Promenade from memory with everything important happening there, and would you know that Ferengis like their money and to cheat, after the first hundred times it was played as a joke or even drove the plot? Thankfully I resumed but I was so close to turning my back on it.

Ahh..The highs and lows of DS9..which I love btw..

"Allamaraine, count to four, Allamaraine, then three more.." :pac: :pac:

I didn't start to enjoy DS9 until it was late in season 2.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK feck it, will watch today and report back later

OK.. now as I said, I haven't watched any of this season so the context of a lot of it is lost on me. (some comments as I watched though)

- Whole holo-ship thing was like it was spliced in from another completely different episode. Someone on the production team has a Harry Potter/LOTR obsession too and who thought basing a sub-plot of trying not to trigger a recluse was a good thing
- Pew pew... basically the same effects just as in pre-TOS Discovery. 900 years later? I see they've gone with the nonsense window on the bridge in the future than the viewscreen too
- Stupid intro is still stupid. People complain about Enterprise, but this is far worse
- I see the dramatic Burnham framing in the camera work and her semonising or angry shouting or crying has gone nowhere. The actress still hasn't developed any range this season
- Tilly is still as irritating and out of place as always. Absolutely awful character. The rest are still little more than extras I see
- More emotions and feels. These are supposed to be professional quasi-military competent officers, not a support group
- Poorly rendered, badly lit CGI is not a substitute for coherent story telling
- WTF is with the turbolift tubes(?) We saw an entire episode in the tubes in TNG and there wasn't miles of empty space in a ship that was far more advanced
- I see where the Discovery does Die Hard comments came from (although the fight between Book and the other guy was more "see you at the party Richter!"), except that is an outstanding genre-defining movie. This nonsense though....
- Wait what... Tilly is Captain now?
- So let me get this straight. The Burn happened because yer man's mother died and he screamed? And this destroyed warp travel throughout the quadrant/galaxy?
- I don't know what the background was with the holgram(?) they're all so upset about but whatever
- Wraps up with another ridiculous Burnham monologue and validation and tears for how great she is of course. I'm surprised they only made her Captain. Why not skip straight to Admiral? :rolleyes:
- Closing out with a Roddenberry quote, the Trek and then TOS theme is just a slap in the face after this nonsense.

I can see why you are all so disappointed. This is actually WORSE than the S2 finalé. Awful, awful muck!

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

"see you at the party Richter!"

I would accept Disco in any form if it had the merit of actors like Michael Ironside and Arnie.

And head of security Marc Alaimo/Gul Dukat. Another great actor. That movie couldn't get any better.

Jason Isaac made season 1. Shame he's gone.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder....was that an *actual finale* of the show. Could Discovery actually be finished now, and that talk of Season 4 production is really little more than just talk?

At the end of this episode you have several character arcs sort of completed (poorly):

-Saru returns to his now liberated and prosperous home-world.

-Cubert and Staments get to have their adoptive family with Aria...which sort of came out of nowhere mid-season, but alright.

-Not sure what they were going with Tilly. That's she's a great commanding officer...whenever it involves losing that command within minutes? She was one character I liked in Season 1, who broke my heart with her stupidity in Season 2, and in Season 3....just meh...

-Space Hitler gets a 2-parter where we bid her a fond(?) farewell.

-And last but no least, everyone's favourite Starfleet officer, surely the best character any of us have ever seen don a comm-badge, Michael Ni Sarek McBurnham, best of the best, and now captain at the end of her story arc which began with her starting a huge galactic war and finished with her needlessly stranding all of her crewmates 1000 years after the deaths of everyone they ever cared about. Surely a hero for all times?

And they finish it off with a Roddenberry quote, and the TOS theme. Not only the last episode of Star Trek: Discovery...but presented as if it was the last episode of Star Trek?! Are they really implying that its all been leading up to this?