Discovery 3x13 - 'That Hope Is You, Part 2' ~~ { ** Spoilers Within ** }

strandroad

alchemist33 wrote: »

Did anybody enjoy it? Just wondering, as it seems the majority on reddit love it and are frequently in tears at the antics of the characters. I know it's hard to chip in when everyone else seems to have a different view, but do speak up.

I think it was ... fine ... also. I enjoyed the whole Su'Kal plot, it felt very vintage and made me think of some old Trek episodes a few times. Saru and Doug Jones played a blinder there.
I enjoyed Osyraa as a villain and I wish they kept her and the Chain around for later.
I like everything Vance and the federation HQ, and appreciated the touch with Sahil checking in at the end, very vintage feel again.
Owo's mission was good, the final montage was well done.
I was surprised by Book taking the reins but it was actually logical and well signposted earlier in the season, bringing a lot of potential for some adventures and Kwejian involvement down the line.
The new scientist character seems like a good addition, and should add balance to what is mostly an engineering crew in the science department.

For the cons, the turbolift cavern looked absolutely silly.
I also feel that horrible disservice was done to the character of Tilly who started out as capable if quirky young scientist and ended up being a directionless blinking mess. I'm not sure whats going on with engineering now, all the LGBT people are in it (which is strange in itself), is Tilly coming back too? How many main cast engineers do you want?
I am not a fan of Michael but then I was never a fan of Kirk, and with the unrelenting focus on her character her being a captain at least centres it somehow.

For everyone looking for positive masculinity, haven't you noticed a wealth of fatherhood themes? Saru becoming a father figure to Su'Kal. Stamets and Culber to Adira and by extension Grey. Vance being a steering presence first and then actually coming out with a fatherly anecdote. Book's brother being responsible for his planet and kind.

Overall I find Discovery too busy and hectic to fully enjoy it, but it's not an abomination either. I am parallel-watching Voyager at the moment and imagining how boards would absolutely skewer every episode of it for bad writing, lazy costumes, sameness of plots etc...

...Ghost...

strandroad wrote: »

I am parallel-watching Voyager at the moment and imagining how boards would absolutely skewer every episode of it for bad writing, lazy costumes, sameness of plots etc...

I rewatched Voyager last year. Was my third time watching the series from start to finish. While it uses the episodic formula, it follows a story throughout making only a handful of episodes you could watch out of place. Good writing, character development and their relationships were built over time and made sense. Enjoy.

I've been rewatching StarGate SG1 the past few weeks. Good times.

FGR

strandroad wrote: »

I am parallel-watching Voyager at the moment and imagining how boards would absolutely skewer every episode of it for bad writing, lazy costumes, sameness of plots etc...

I get what you're saying but the wrongs made by Voyager were nitpicking at best. You didn't have Voyager completely rewriting history in its entirety by having Tuvok be Spock's adopted brother (which, funnily, would have made more sense than Burnham) not to mention Voyager's layout not making any sense whatsoever and a crew that revolved around one character.

Although Seven and the Doctor were very interesting and popular characters their stories didn't arch over the entire show/cast and relegate Voyager and other species/vessels to a quick glimpse, from a distance, here and there.

strandroad

FGR wrote: »

I get what you're saying but the wrongs made by Voyager were nitpicking at best. You didn't have Voyager completely rewriting history in its entirety by having Tuvok be Spock's adopted brother (which, funnily, would have made more sense than Burnham) not to mention Voyager's layout not making any sense whatsoever and a crew that revolved around one character.

Although Seven and the Doctor were very interesting and popular characters their stories didn't arch over the entire show/cast and relegate Voyager and other species/vessels to a quick glimpse, from a distance, here and there.

Oh yes, I am not disparaging Voyager by any means (although the treatment of Seven and Jeri Ryan there is a topic for a reason), merely saying that ST series have their sins. STD is guilty of ADHD and trying too hard but then I stopped watching DS9 once because it was getting so stale - I could draw the layouts of the command centre and the entire Promenade from memory with everything important happening there, and would you know that Ferengis like their money and to cheat, after the first hundred times it was played as a joke or even drove the plot? Thankfully I resumed but I was so close to turning my back on it.

Stark

Voyager gets a huge amount of hate on this forum. (I'd be a fan personally, quite a few episodes there that I rewatch regularly).

FGR

strandroad wrote: »

Oh yes, I am not disparaging Voyager by any means (although the treatment of Seven and Jeri Ryan there is a topic for a reason), merely saying that ST series have their sins. STD is guilty of ADHD and trying too hard but then I stopped watching DS9 once because it was getting so stale - I could draw the layouts of the command centre and the entire Promenade from memory with everything important happening there, and would you know that Ferengis like their money and to cheat, after the first hundred times it was played as a joke or even drove the plot? Thankfully I resumed but I was so close to turning my back on it.

Ahh..The highs and lows of DS9..which I love btw..

"Allamaraine, count to four, Allamaraine, then three more.." :pac: :pac:

strandroad

FGR wrote: »

Ahh..The highs and lows of DS9..which I love btw..

"Allamaraine, count to four, Allamaraine, then three more.." :pac: :pac:

You've given me psychedelic flashbacks now!

corkie

breezy1985

FGR wrote: »

Ahh..The highs and lows of DS9..which I love btw..

"Allamaraine, count to four, Allamaraine, then three more.." :pac: :pac:

I genuinely love that episode

One of the few from the early seasons that I like

Stark

I didn't start to enjoy DS9 until it was late in season 2.

~Rebel~

breezy1985 wrote: »

I genuinely love that episode

One of the few from the early seasons that I like

Ha! I used to work with the writer of that episode, Lisa Rich! Brilliant woman.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK feck it, will watch today and report back later

OK.. now as I said, I haven't watched any of this season so the context of a lot of it is lost on me. (some comments as I watched though)

- Whole holo-ship thing was like it was spliced in from another completely different episode. Someone on the production team has a Harry Potter/LOTR obsession too and who thought basing a sub-plot of trying not to trigger a recluse was a good thing
- Pew pew... basically the same effects just as in pre-TOS Discovery. 900 years later? I see they've gone with the nonsense window on the bridge in the future than the viewscreen too
- Stupid intro is still stupid. People complain about Enterprise, but this is far worse
- I see the dramatic Burnham framing in the camera work and her semonising or angry shouting or crying has gone nowhere. The actress still hasn't developed any range this season
- Tilly is still as irritating and out of place as always. Absolutely awful character. The rest are still little more than extras I see
- More emotions and feels. These are supposed to be professional quasi-military competent officers, not a support group
- Poorly rendered, badly lit CGI is not a substitute for coherent story telling
- WTF is with the turbolift tubes(?) We saw an entire episode in the tubes in TNG and there wasn't miles of empty space in a ship that was far more advanced
- I see where the Discovery does Die Hard comments came from (although the fight between Book and the other guy was more "see you at the party Richter!"), except that is an outstanding genre-defining movie. This nonsense though....
- Wait what... Tilly is Captain now?
- So let me get this straight. The Burn happened because yer man's mother died and he screamed? And this destroyed warp travel throughout the quadrant/galaxy?
- I don't know what the background was with the holgram(?) they're all so upset about but whatever
- Wraps up with another ridiculous Burnham monologue and validation and tears for how great she is of course. I'm surprised they only made her Captain. Why not skip straight to Admiral? :rolleyes:
- Closing out with a Roddenberry quote, the Trek and then TOS theme is just a slap in the face after this nonsense.

I can see why you are all so disappointed. This is actually WORSE than the S2 finalé. Awful, awful muck!

Damien360

alchemist33 wrote: »

Did anybody enjoy it? Just wondering, as it seems the majority on reddit love it and are frequently in tears at the antics of the characters. I know it's hard to chip in when everyone else seems to have a different view, but do speak up.

I actually liked most of the series. Disappointing thing for me was the head of the chain looked like the wicked witch from wizard of Oz. They were building to be a good enemy. The two episode send off for Philippa was pointless. She was a fantastic strong character. The reasoning for the Burn still makes no logical sense. Tilly should never be captain. But after all that, I found myself looking forward to episodes each week. The tech was good and the upgrades in season 3 were good. I like Burnham and especially Saru. Booker is a character with a lot of potential. Some of the bridge staff are a bit throwaway and we haven't seen their strengths bar the random holding breath for 6 minutes.

For context I hated DS9 which for me was Cornation street in space. I adored Voyager. Janeway was a fantastic captain. I still haven't got to see Picard (don't have prime).

The way I look at it, there were plenty of poor to awful episodes in all the older Star Treks. Some of the Number one with Diana storylines leap out at me as I write this. But the overall series was good. The 3 series of Disco are going the same way for me. Some iffy stuff but overall I like it and will remember it.

FGR

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

"see you at the party Richter!"

I would accept Disco in any form if it had the merit of actors like Michael Ironside and Arnie.

And head of security Marc Alaimo/Gul Dukat. Another great actor. That movie couldn't get any better.

Jason Isaac made season 1. Shame he's gone.

Stark

Damien360 wrote: »

I actually liked most of the series. Disappointing thing for me was the head of the chain looked like the wicked witch from wizard of Oz. They were building to be a good enemy.

I quite liked that they chose an Orion woman as head baddie. In all previous ST series, Orion women had been slaves. Good to see that by the 32nd century, they had achieved emancipation.

Edit: I should also call out to Lower Decks here who had an Orion woman as a Starfleet ensign.

Damien360 wrote: »

The two episode send off for Philippa was pointless. She was a fantastic strong character.

She was good in those two episodes but was awful in the rest of the series (there just wasn't a place for her character on a Prime universe starship). I'm glad they wrote her out one way or another.

Damien360 wrote: »

For context I hated DS9 which for me was Cornation street in space.

That has got to be the oddest and most wildly inaccurate description I've heard for the show

i57dwun4yb1pt8

think im done with this series now , it was great ,
but series 3 is just a bucket of romantic ****e .

ah well, nothing lasts for ever

GSPfan

strandroad wrote: »

For everyone looking for positive masculinity, haven't you noticed a wealth of fatherhood themes? Saru becoming a father figure to Su'Kal. Stamets and Culber to Adira and by extension Grey. Vance being a steering presence first and then actually coming out with a fatherly anecdote. Book's brother being responsible for his planet and kind.

I’m not sure masculinity or fatherhood figures are what I am looking for. I just think I’m looking for competence. I also don’t think Saru, Stamets & Culber are father figures. If anything they are mother figures.

For example... ST Voyager was dominated by female lead characters and not once did I even think that I wanted more strong male characters. DS9 had strong women too. Not a problem.
Between Janeway, Seven, Torres, Kira, and Dax you had strong females who would wipe the floor with every character in Discovery, male or female.

How any of these people made it to starfleet I’ll never know.

Banana Republic 1

GSPfan wrote: »

I’m not sure masculinity or fatherhood figures are what I am looking for. I just think I’m looking for competence. I also don’t think Saru, Stamets & Culber are father figures. If anything they are mother figures.

For example... ST Voyager was dominated by female lead characters and not once did I even think that I wanted more strong male characters. DS9 had strong women too. Not a problem.
Between Janeway, Seven, Torres, Kira, and Dax you had strong females who would wipe the floor with every character in Discovery, male or female.

How any of these people made it to starfleet I’ll never know.

I agree with the above and add that major kiras ability the straight up kick the sh1te out of so many dudes twice her size was totally believable because her story line was of a woman born on the battlefield ergo her abilities were earned. Only Georgeo had this going for her in discovery and the writers totally wasted it.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK.. now as I said, I haven't watched any of this season so the context of a lot of it is lost on me. (some comments as I watched though)

- Whole holo-ship thing was like it was spliced in from another completely different episode. Someone on the production team has a Harry Potter/LOTR obsession too and who thought basing a sub-plot of trying not to trigger a recluse was a good thing
- Pew pew... basically the same effects just as in pre-TOS Discovery. 900 years later? I see they've gone with the nonsense window on the bridge in the future than the viewscreen too
- Stupid intro is still stupid. People complain about Enterprise, but this is far worse
- I see the dramatic Burnham framing in the camera work and her semonising or angry shouting or crying has gone nowhere. The actress still hasn't developed any range this season
- Tilly is still as irritating and out of place as always. Absolutely awful character. The rest are still little more than extras I see
- More emotions and feels. These are supposed to be professional quasi-military competent officers, not a support group
- Poorly rendered, badly lit CGI is not a substitute for coherent story telling
- WTF is with the turbolift tubes(?) We saw an entire episode in the tubes in TNG and there wasn't miles of empty space in a ship that was far more advanced
- I see where the Discovery does Die Hard comments came from (although the fight between Book and the other guy was more "see you at the party Richter!"), except that is an outstanding genre-defining movie. This nonsense though....
- Wait what... Tilly is Captain now?
- So let me get this straight. The Burn happened because yer man's mother died and he screamed? And this destroyed warp travel throughout the quadrant/galaxy?
- I don't know what the background was with the holgram(?) they're all so upset about but whatever
- Wraps up with another ridiculous Burnham monologue and validation and tears for how great she is of course. I'm surprised they only made her Captain. Why not skip straight to Admiral? :rolleyes:
- Closing out with a Roddenberry quote, the Trek and then TOS theme is just a slap in the face after this nonsense.

I can see why you are all so disappointed. This is actually WORSE than the S2 finalé. Awful, awful muck!

Not to forget "Lets Fly"

Rawr

The more I think about it, the more I wonder....was that an *actual finale* of the show. Could Discovery actually be finished now, and that talk of Season 4 production is really little more than just talk?

At the end of this episode you have several character arcs sort of completed (poorly):

-Saru returns to his now liberated and prosperous home-world.

-Cubert and Staments get to have their adoptive family with Aria...which sort of came out of nowhere mid-season, but alright.

-Not sure what they were going with Tilly. That's she's a great commanding officer...whenever it involves losing that command within minutes? She was one character I liked in Season 1, who broke my heart with her stupidity in Season 2, and in Season 3....just meh...

-Space Hitler gets a 2-parter where we bid her a fond(?) farewell.

-And last but no least, everyone's favourite Starfleet officer, surely the best character any of us have ever seen don a comm-badge, Michael Ni Sarek McBurnham, best of the best, and now captain at the end of her story arc which began with her starting a huge galactic war and finished with her needlessly stranding all of her crewmates 1000 years after the deaths of everyone they ever cared about. Surely a hero for all times?

And they finish it off with a Roddenberry quote, and the TOS theme. Not only the last episode of Star Trek: Discovery...but presented as if it was the last episode of Star Trek?! Are they really implying that its all been leading up to this?

...Ghost...

GSPfan wrote: »

I’m not sure masculinity or fatherhood figures are what I am looking for. I just think I’m looking for competence. I also don’t think Saru, Stamets & Culber are father figures. If anything they are mother figures.

For example... ST Voyager was dominated by female lead characters and not once did I even think that I wanted more strong male characters. DS9 had strong women too. Not a problem.
Between Janeway, Seven, Torres, Kira, and Dax you had strong females who would wipe the floor with every character in Discovery, male or female.

How any of these people made it to starfleet I’ll never know.

This exactly.

breezy1985

Rawr wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I wonder....was that an *actual finale* of the show. Could Discovery actually be finished now, and that talk of Season 4 production is really little more than just talk?

At the end of this episode you have several character arcs sort of completed (poorly):

-Saru returns to his now liberated and prosperous home-world.

-Cubert and Staments get to have their adoptive family with Aria...which sort of came out of nowhere mid-season, but alright.

-Not sure what they were going with Tilly. That's she's a great commanding officer...whenever it involves losing that command within minutes? She was one character I liked in Season 1, who broke my heart with her stupidity in Season 2, and in Season 3....just meh...

-Space Hitler gets a 2-parter where we bid her a fond(?) farewell.

-And last but no least, everyone's favourite Starfleet officer, surely the best character any of us have ever seen don a comm-badge, Michael Ni Sarek McBurnham, best of the best, and now captain at the end of her story arc which began with her starting a huge galactic war and finished with her needlessly stranding all of her crewmates 1000 years after the deaths of everyone they ever cared about. Surely a hero for all times?

And they finish it off with a Roddenberry quote, and the TOS theme. Not only the last episode of Star Trek: Discovery...but presented as if it was the last episode of Star Trek?! Are they really implying that its all been leading up to this?

They finish every season of DIS with the TOS theme I think. Also season 4 is definitely underway but ya I do agree it looked like a finale and would have worked well as one.

But don't get your hopes up there will almost definitely be another Discovery

silverharp

their audience numbers seems to be low and terrible in the 18-49 group if what I saw was correct. If its being renewed it seems more of corporate juggling act or some kind of loss leader, it doesnt look like a show that would continue under its own steam

breezy1985

silverharp wrote: »

their audience numbers seems to be low and terrible in the 18-49 group if what I saw was correct. If its being renewed it seems more of corporate juggling act or some kind of loss leader, it doesnt look like a show that would continue under its own steam

Seems to depend on what figures you look at I have seen people post glowing ones too. Thing with streaming figures is you have no one to go off but the providers really.

I don't see any reason why CBS would keep making a show no one is watching

Sleepy

Really wish it was a series finale so they could have moved on to doing something better. One of the great things in Enterprise was how they were constantly out-matched by alien species they encountered and the jump to the 32nd Century should have played with this more, instead they doubled down on most of the problems with the series and instead of ending it with the inevitable promotion of Burnham to Captain, now expect us to watch the next season with her in command. Kirk I could always take or leave tbh, Saru had potential that wasn't realised but adding Burnham to the Star Trek Captains club seems like an insult to the others. No need to be an exemplary officer with leadership skills to be a captain any more, just cry and stamp your foot enough times and Starfleet will give you command nowadays :rolleyes:

...Ghost...

breezy1985 wrote: »

Seems to depend on what figures you look at I have seen people post glowing ones too. Thing with streaming figures is you have no one to go off but the providers really.

I don't see any reason why CBS would keep making a show no one is watching

Could be part of their virtue signaling budget. Sadly we are adding to the numbers by watching it, even when we dislike it. I won't add to those numbers again. Watching sh!te in the slim hope it will turn out well is not working on Disco for me.

breezy1985

...Ghost... wrote: »

Could be part of their virtue signaling budget. Sadly we are adding to the numbers by watching it, even when we dislike it. I won't add to those numbers again. Watching sh!te in the slim hope it will turn out well is not working on Disco for me.

Good any chance you could also stop coming on here to comment about it too

SouthWesterly

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

it doesn't. not even slightly. look at the scene again if you have to. the cavernous backscenes while the lifts moving about. compare to exterior shots with people or robots on the ship for scale, or the shuttle bay shots for scale. There is no way there is that amount of empty internal space to allow those turbolift scenes to be possible. Same as the warp core eject scene. It comes out directly below the shuttle bay after falling for several second through, presumably, several decks. It just cannot fit within the exterior dimensions of the ship.
The only way it can be possible is if 32c tech allow internal pocket dimensions like the room of requirements from Harry Potter.

Makes sense to me. I enjoyed it. Its Sci fi. That's all that matters... For that scene anyway.

Other bits were cr@p

Banana Republic 1

breezy1985 wrote: »

Good any chance you could also stop coming on here to comment about it too

Labelling people who disagree with you, whether it’s done subtly or otherwise, with an ist or ism is exactly what this show wants you to do.

Banana Republic 1

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Makes sense to me. I enjoyed it. Its Sci fi. That's all that matters... For that scene anyway.

Other bits were cr@p

I just think they ripped of tron and where eagles dare in that scene. Also the bit where the Burnham was submerged in the computer thing was lifted from stargate.