Connacht Team Talk Thread V - The Friend Zone

connachta · 23-11-2020 9:00am

Be very careful : everyone having ponderated points about un-intentional situation promote "mindless violence":rolleyes::rolleyes:

Burkie1203 · 23-11-2020 9:19am

Mul, it's over

connachta wrote: »

Be very careful : everyone having ponderated points about un-intentional situation promote "mindless violence":rolleyes::rolleyes:

You Previously described Papaili red card v Munster as impressive physicality.

KBurke85 · 23-11-2020 10:07am

The Friend Zone

Burkie1203 wrote: »

You Previously described Papaili red card v Munster as impressive physicality.

Lads either let it go or take it to a pm please. The ref gave a red card, ye both disagree with each other on this. We get it.

Lets focus on the fact that Connacht played well and got a good win on the road. It's not that often we score 47 points in a game

connachta · 23-11-2020 10:17am

Any Papali'i intervention is impressive physically
He has to make it legal, and having a 2nd red on a non-intentional accident is not an issue for now, but for next suspension, who could be a lengthy one.
No more room for errors

realhorrorshow · 23-11-2020 12:44pm

Papali’i brings so much in terms of his carrying but until he sorts his tackle technique out I think he’s a luxury we can’t afford. I know there was no intent and Boni did change direction but if you put a player with good tackle technique (like Paul Boyle) in that situation ten times I don’t think he gets a red card once.

thomond2006 · 23-11-2020 12:48pm

Some Like It TOH

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Papali’i brings so much in terms of his carrying but until he sorts his tackle technique out I think he’s a luxury we can’t afford. I know there was no intent and Boni did change direction but if you put a player with good tackle technique (like Paul Boyle) in that situation ten times I don’t think he gets a red card once.

Pretty much. You can see why Connacht wanted to pluck him out of relative obscurity.

Jump_In_Jack · 23-11-2020 1:07pm

Independent had this from Andy Friend about his intention to appeal the red card decision,

"Connacht coach Andy Friend said they will look at appealing the red card dished out to Papali’i.

“I thought it was a harsh red card, a head-on-head, no one leads with their head on purpose because you don’t have a future in the game if you do that.

“At the same time we have to protect players so I can understand the desire to make sure we are protecting ball-carriers and if it’s head-on-head and they deem that to be a red penalty offence then so be it. It’s certainly something we would be keen to appeal,” said Friend."

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/pro14/connacht-claim-pro14-win-at-zebre-but-papalii-sees-red-again-39776898.html

Former Former Former · 23-11-2020 1:15pm

Hmmm.

The problem is that Papali'i won't get any reduction in his ban for a clean record. It's his second red card for contact to the head in four games with no previous record to refer to.

That only leaves him with accepting the charge and good conduct at the hearing as possible reductions to his suspension. If Connacht now decide not to accept it, then he's looking at taking the full whack of the suspension.

realhorrorshow · 23-11-2020 1:19pm

Papali’i averaging a red card every 64 minutes so far.

connachta · 23-11-2020 1:32pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

Hmmm.

The problem is that Papali'i won't get any reduction in his ban for a clean record. It's his second red card for contact to the head in four games with no previous record to refer to.

That only leaves him with accepting the charge and good conduct at the hearing as possible reductions to his suspension. If Connacht now decide not to accept it, then he's looking at taking the full whack of the suspension.

Friend is right to appeal to overturn an extensive interpretation of the rule (as said above on this page, and not by me)

Try to push for a claerence which won't dammage his record for next time, an error which could happen to anyone in 5-6 years of carreer left. That's a good bet to avoid living under threat of a season ban for a 3rd offense. Clear this very harsh one

If it fails, we can do even for 8 weeks without him, take the risk, Dowling is back in a few weeks which leaves us full-strenght for back-row options

CowboyTed · 23-11-2020 2:15pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

The Zebre player is almost bolt upright bar a slight bend at the knee. He is not leading with his head.

Papaili is not upright. He is leaning forward, bent at the hips, head first. His heels are not touching the ground as his head makes contact because he is driving upwards.

His arms and shoulders were not illegal, but he was not sent off for doing anything wrong with his arms and shoulders. He wraps both arms.

AP is not jumping out of the way. He is trying to tackle the zebre player. The change of direction doesnt matter. Papaili instincts are to go high. If he makes 5 tackles in a game, chances are one is going to get him into trouble.

One of his heels were on the ground at time of impact but he is obviously expecting him to come on his left shoulder. The runner is pushing to his left of his right foot, that is why it is an accident. Hard to see anything wreakless.

From there he tries to get out of the way...

Burkie1203 · 23-11-2020 2:32pm

Mul, it's over

CowboyTed wrote: »

One of his heels were on the ground at time of impact but he is obviously expecting him to come on his left shoulder. The runner is pushing to his left of his right foot, that is why it is an accident. Hard to see anything wreakless.

From there he tries to get out of the way...

Papaili is driving upwards, there is still no contact in that still pic but at that stage Papaili has initiated his tackle and he carries through with it. It is not accidental if thats how he tackles. They clash heads because one player has poor tackle technique and he had very recent previous.

If AP gets a ban and comes back and he continues to tackle in this manner, how many more reds will he collect?

The Lost Sheep · 23-11-2020 2:36pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

One of his heels were on the ground at time of impact but he is obviously expecting him to come on his left shoulder. The runner is pushing to his left of his right foot, that is why it is an accident. Hard to see anything wreakless.

From there he tries to get out of the way...

Look at how he is entering the contact. Its upwards. He has initiated the tackle and he's already high. Its reckless and deserves a ban and considering he is just back from a ban for dangerous tackling he will be off for a while

CowboyTed · 23-11-2020 2:50pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Papaili is driving upwards, there is still no contact in that still pic but at that stage Papaili has initiated his tackle and he carries through with it. It is not accidental if thats how he tackles. They clash heads because one player has poor tackle technique and he had very recent previous.

If AP gets a ban and comes back and he continues to tackle in this manner, how many more reds will he collect?

You agreed that his shoulder and arms were never illegal and always stay in a legal position...

This clearly shows him getting his head out of the way or trying to. He is not leading with the head into the runner. The runner is coming into the side of his head.

Is the technique bad? Well it doesn't look great and that is why he lets the player go as soon as his arm is pushed up.

So Shoulders and Arm don't deserve red and he is not putting his head into the runner but to the side and runner runs into it... The ref asked did he lead with his head, that implies that he attempted to go head first into the runner.. The picture clearly shows his head wasn't doing that.

His head was high. The question is having your head high in the tackle a red card offence. If it is why isn't every player pulled up on it?

sydthebeat · 23-11-2020 2:52pm

The Friend Zone

CowboyTed wrote: »

You agreed that his shoulder and arms were never illegal and always stay in a legal position...

This clearly shows him getting his head out of the way or trying to. He is not leading with the head into the runner. The runner is coming into the side of his head.

Is the technique bad? Well it doesn't look great and that is why he lets the player go as soon as his arm is pushed up.

So Shoulders and Arm don't deserve red and he is not putting his head into the runner but to the side and runner runs into it... The ref asked did he lead with his head, that implies that he attempted to go head first into the runner.. The picture clearly shows his head wasn't doing that.

His head was high. The question is having your head high in the tackle a red card offence. If it is why isn't every player pulled up on it?

https://laws.worldrugby.org/en/guidelines/13

FACECUTTR · 23-11-2020 4:39pm

Great to see SOB back and playing well. He has lost a bit of weight by the look of it. Reilly looks a really good prospect. Terrible luck for Farrell.
I wonder will it be Arnold back to 13. He hasn't impressed me much in the centre but has been good on the wing.
I'm slightly worried about loosehead and hooker. Buckley is going to need a rest soon and McCallister is prone to picking up regular injuries. I'd like to see more of Duggan and Burke getting game time. As for hooker we have Heff and Delahunt who are nailed on. Murphy is not trusted and DTM is not getting any game time. We need another body there and not one to make up the numbers.

Burkie1203 · 23-11-2020 4:53pm

Mul, it's over

CowboyTed wrote: »

You agreed that his shoulder and arms were never illegal and always stay in a legal position...

This clearly shows him getting his head out of the way or trying to. He is not leading with the head into the runner. The runner is coming into the side of his head.

Is the technique bad? Well it doesn't look great and that is why he lets the player go as soon as his arm is pushed up.

So Shoulders and Arm don't deserve red and he is not putting his head into the runner but to the side and runner runs into it... The ref asked did he lead with his head, that implies that he attempted to go head first into the runner.. The picture clearly shows his head wasn't doing that.

His head was high. The question is having your head high in the tackle a red card offence. If it is why isn't every player pulled up on it?

His head went straight into the BCs head because he was always high. He is leaning forward and driving upwards.

When he begins his forward motion his head is the closest part of him to the BC before he goes to wrap. His head connects with the BC head because his tackle technique means he goes high.

I don't know why you keep bringing his shoulders and arms into it. He was sent off for a head on head clash which he was at fault for.

sydthebeat · 23-11-2020 5:00pm

The Friend Zone

The contact to the ball carriers head, and the force of same, with no mitigation factors, is the reason he got sent off.

The Lost Sheep · 23-11-2020 5:02pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

You agreed that his shoulder and arms were never illegal and always stay in a legal position...

This clearly shows him getting his head out of the way or trying to. He is not leading with the head into the runner. The runner is coming into the side of his head.

Is the technique bad? Well it doesn't look great and that is why he lets the player go as soon as his arm is pushed up.

So Shoulders and Arm don't deserve red and he is not putting his head into the runner but to the side and runner runs into it... The ref asked did he lead with his head, that implies that he attempted to go head first into the runner.. The picture clearly shows his head wasn't doing that.

His head was high. The question is having your head high in the tackle a red card offence. If it is why isn't every player pulled up on it?

Maybe what the ref said wasnt phrased the best but its very clear from the pic and video that he is high and its dangerous under the framework which differentiates between shoulder charges/dangerous tackle.
https://laws.worldrugby.org/en/guidelines/13

There is contact with the head, his left arm is nowhere near making contact in the tackle. The force of the hit. All combined means it has to be a red card.

RonnieL · 23-11-2020 5:09pm

Delighted to see SOB back, and in good form from the start. You could actually hear some of the reaction from the other connacht lads when he scored the try too - "welcome back son"!

Regarding the red - I felt it was harsh, but it's clear he needs to improve his technique. Having said that, I do feel it's more difficult for the bigger men like him to dip in the first place, not to mention react to a smaller player as they twist and turn.

As an aside, I do think there is a middle ground wrt punishing dangerous play, without ruining games. If the red carded player could be replaced after something like 20 minutes, with the individual still getting the ban, it would allow the behavior to be discouraged without sacrificing the individual games.

Zeugnis · 23-11-2020 5:18pm

Any news on Farrell's knee?

The Lost Sheep · 23-11-2020 5:21pm

RonnieL wrote: »

Delighted to see SOB back, and in good form from the start. You could actually hear some of the reaction from the other connacht lads when he scored the try too - "welcome back son"!

Regarding the red - I felt it was harsh, but it's clear he needs to improve his technique. Having said that, I do feel it's more difficult for the bigger men like him to dip in the first place, not to mention react to a smaller player as they twist and turn.

As an aside, I do think there is a middle ground wrt punishing dangerous play, without ruining games. If the red carded player could be replaced after something like 20 minutes, with the individual still getting the ban, it would allow the behavior to be discouraged without sacrificing the individual games.

No a red card doesnt ruin a game. I dont see how its harsh. It may be difficult for bigger men to dip but thats irrelevant.
A red card is given for the most serious offences or multiple yellows. A 20 minute suspension isnt sufficient for a red card.

Bazzo · 23-11-2020 5:22pm

Mul, it's over

A red card is ruining this thread

SqueakyKneecap · 23-11-2020 6:55pm

Bazzo wrote: »

A red card is ruining this thread

In the complimentary way possible: if I was being sentenced to me death I'd want Burkie1203 as my legal team because the case would be still going long after I die of natural causes :pac:

ClanofLams · 23-11-2020 11:08pm

Mul, it's over

Bazzo wrote: »

A red card is ruining this thread

Make Connacht Rugby Thread Great readable Again!

CowboyTed · 23-11-2020 11:12pm

Bazzo wrote: »

A red card is ruining this thread

Fair enough... Won't be sorted out here...

Wegians89 · 24-11-2020 11:32am

The Friend Zone

Connacht are sitting third in the conference, a point off scarlets but have two games in hand. Had felt like it was a pretty bad start to the season but looking at that top two is very much on.

Gotta love seeing SOB back, what a cracking 6. After Boyles performance the week before, there’s the makings of a very competitive back row with butler too. Sean masterson looked solid and I’ve been impressed with Oliver so far this year. Aungier looks like a steal too.

In the backs, Reilly looks like another solid 9 coming through. Hopefully Tom Farrell isn’t out for long, he makes such a difference to the attack. Really looking forward to seeing a back three of wootton, porch and BOD

freyners · 24-11-2020 11:55am

The Friend Zone

Wegians89 wrote: »

Connacht are sitting third in the conference, a point off scarlets but have two games in hand. Had felt like it was a pretty bad start to the season but looking at that top two is very much on.

Gotta love seeing SOB back, what a cracking 6. After Boyles performance the week before, there’s the makings of a very competitive back row with butler too. Sean masterson looked solid and I’ve been impressed with Oliver so far this year. Aungier looks like a steal too.

In the backs, Reilly looks like another solid 9 coming through. Hopefully Tom Farrell isn’t out for long, he makes such a difference to the attack. Really looking forward to seeing a back three of wootton, porch and BOD

SOB could be huge if he gets back to his level of 2016/17 where he was rampant imo, still quite young so if he can keep fit has the talent to go past that and start being look at for Ireland squads.

I'm fairly confident that the coaches can fix APs tackling, for me its part fitness, part getting used to this level of rugby union as while the first one was reckless, there is a significant element of bad luck in the second and you have two excellent options in every position in SOB/Masterson, Butler/Oliver and AP/Boyle with Masterson eile, Dowling and Gallagher all knocking around also.

Agreed on Aungier, looks very good. Very competitive position with the 4 options in Bealham/DRM/Aungier/Kenny

Anyone have a read on Tierney Martin at hooker, has he not developed as hoped or has injuries stalled his progress?

Wegians89 · 24-11-2020 12:00pm

The Friend Zone

freyners wrote: »

SOB could be huge if he gets back to his level of 2016/17 where he was rampant imo, still quite young so if he can keep fit has the talent to go past that and start being look at for Ireland squads.

I'm fairly confident that the coaches can fix APs tackling, for me its part fitness, part getting used to this level of rugby union as while the first one was reckless, there is a significant element of bad luck in the second and you have two excellent options in every position in SOB/Masterson, Butler/Oliver and AP/Boyle with Masterson eile, Dowling and Gallagher all knocking around also.

Agreed on Aungier, looks very good. Very competitive position with the 4 options in Bealham/DRM/Aungier/Kenny

Anyone have a read on Tierney Martin at hooker, has he not developed as hoped or has injuries stalled his progress?

DTM was actually the 24th man at the weekend, he was pictured on the bench

connachta · 24-11-2020 1:02pm

Wegians89 wrote: »

DTM was actually the 24th man at the weekend, he was pictured on the bench

We have 5 and a half key players able to go forward (and not crashing, gaining meters on their feet)

Heff
Dillane
Papali'i
Aki
Daly or Robb

Partly Boyle

As long as we have so few, their "competitors" for the spots start with a huge disadvantage in my opinion, because we need at least 3 or 4 carriers within 15

SqueakyKneecap · 24-11-2020 1:23pm

Tom Farrell out for 6 weeks

realhorrorshow · 24-11-2020 1:34pm

freyners wrote: »

SOB could be huge if he gets back to his level of 2016/17 where he was rampant imo, still quite young so if he can keep fit has the talent to go past that and start being look at for Ireland squads.

I'm fairly confident that the coaches can fix APs tackling, for me its part fitness, part getting used to this level of rugby union as while the first one was reckless, there is a significant element of bad luck in the second and you have two excellent options in every position in SOB/Masterson, Butler/Oliver and AP/Boyle with Masterson eile, Dowling and Gallagher all knocking around also.

Agreed on Aungier, looks very good. Very competitive position with the 4 options in Bealham/DRM/Aungier/Kenny

Anyone have a read on Tierney Martin at hooker, has he not developed as hoped or has injuries stalled his progress?

My read on Tierney Martin as an u20 was that he had matured physically quite early and that he would struggle in adult rugby. I’ve seen him play a bit for Eagles/Corinthians and I think that has turned out to be the case. If he were particularly rated I think he would have passed out Johnny Murphy by now. Hopefully he’ll turn out to be a decent squad member as indigenous players are invaluable no matter where they are on the depth chart, but he’s not an O’Brien/Gallagher/Murray tier prospect imo, which was probably a lot of people’s expectation.

connachta · 24-11-2020 1:41pm

SqueakyKneecap wrote: »

Tom Farrell out for 6 weeks

Fairly good news when you saw him out of the pitch
Available for Champions Cup in January
Robb can't come back soon enough. Daly/Arnold our last option this week

Bazzo · 24-11-2020 2:07pm

Mul, it's over

SqueakyKneecap wrote: »

Tom Farrell out for 6 weeks

That's a lot better than I thought it would be to be honest

Burkie1203 · 24-11-2020 3:04pm

Mul, it's over

SqueakyKneecap wrote: »

Tom Farrell out for 6 weeks

That's a seriously good result, was convinced it was ACL when I saw video clip of him leaving the field

FACECUTTR · 24-11-2020 3:18pm

Bazzo wrote: »

That's a lot better than I thought it would be to be honest

I honestly thought it would be 6 months to a year before we saw him again. Great news

connachta · 24-11-2020 3:19pm

“We are going to appeal that and hopefully common sense prevails on Thursday and it’s thrown out.”

Andy Friend with the exact good words in this article "hope to get a disciplinary panel “who understand collision sports and that things like that do happen, that there was no malice or intent in it.”

https://www.the42.ie/connacht-appeal-abraham-papalii-5277157-Nov2020/

serfboard · 24-11-2020 3:33pm

connachta wrote: »

https://www.the42.ie/connacht-appeal-abraham-papalii-5277157-Nov2020/

Friend confirmed that Connacht had already been working with Papali’i on his tackling technique since his arrival, with the 27-year-old having played rugby league up until last year.

“We’re working really hard with him to drop that body height, he’s a big man anyway and those things take a while

You could imagine Friend saying to him; "Alright, Abraham, your training sessions are going to consist, from now on, exclusively on tackle technique, and we will not play you again until we are satisified that you have got it right".

At 27, he's not exactly an old dog, but you'd have to wonder how long it will take to teach him the new trick of low(er) tackling.

RonnieL · 24-11-2020 8:18pm

SqueakyKneecap wrote: »

Tom Farrell out for 6 weeks

The 6 week figure seems hopeful based on what Friend said:

“He had a scan yesterday and it’s going to be lengthy that one, let’s say six weeks plus,” said Friend of Farrell. “We won’t see him for six weeks at least.”

Fingers crossed!

ElisaAtWar · 25-11-2020 1:18am

What happened with Matt and Tiernan. They seemed to have been there for a few minutes, and minutes later they were not to be found again?

testtech05 · 25-11-2020 10:03am

Some Like It TOH

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

What happened with Matt and Tiernan. They seemed to have been there for a few minutes, and minutes later they were not to be found again?

Tiernan was injured in the game against Edinburgh, I think that was his first game back since getting injured in one of the pre season inter pro's. I cant recall how long he is out for this time but think it was a groin injury.

On Matt I'm not sure. He played his 1st game in a while after injuries against Scarlets and had a poor outing (he was far from alone on that) I havent heard that he picked up another knock so assume he wasnt picked for Zebres due to form.

Former Former Former · 25-11-2020 2:03pm

connachta wrote: »

“We are going to appeal that and hopefully common sense prevails on Thursday and it’s thrown out.”

Andy Friend with the exact good words in this article "hope to get a disciplinary panel “who understand collision sports and that things like that do happen, that there was no malice or intent in it.”

https://www.the42.ie/connacht-appeal-abraham-papalii-5277157-Nov2020/

I think this is optimistic to be honest; the gif in that article seems to be pretty damning;

?width=480&version=5277304

Looks to me like Papali'i had plenty of time to go low or get his arm around the Zebre guy.

RonnieL · 25-11-2020 3:03pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

I think this is optimistic to be honest; the gif in that article seems to be pretty damning;

Looks to me like Papali'i had plenty of time to go low or get his arm around the Zebre guy.

He's definitely too upright. The Zebre player does change direction at the last second though, so I'm sure they'll work that angle. Lots of players tackle upright to try and stop the attacking player throwing an offload, or to potentially hold the player up and force a turnover. Maybe if they outlawed that style of tackle altogether, it would actually improve the game as there would be way more offloads. Anyway, we'll just have to wait and see what the panel say.

The Lost Sheep · 25-11-2020 4:21pm

RonnieL wrote: »

He's definitely too upright. The Zebre player does change direction at the last second though, so I'm sure they'll work that angle. Lots of players tackle upright to try and stop the attacking player throwing an offload, or to potentially hold the player up and force a turnover. Maybe if they outlawed that style of tackle altogether, it would actually improve the game as there would be way more offloads. Anyway, we'll just have to wait and see what the panel say.

He's trying to tackle far too high. He had more than enough time to drop himself to make a smashing tackle

Better suited to laws thread but what tackle do you want to outlaw?

Anyway his hearing for the red is tomorrow.

RonnieL · 25-11-2020 4:51pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

He's trying to tackle far too high. He had more than enough time to drop himself to make a smashing tackle

Better suited to laws thread but what tackle do you want to outlaw?

Anyway his hearing for the red is tomorrow.

Was just thinking out loud really but it seems these upright style tackles, and the resulting head collisions are the latest area of focus. There had been talk before about bringing the tackle line below the nipple, and I'm just thinking it would be worth trying (for safety, but also the increased offloads).

Zzippy · 25-11-2020 6:22pm

Johnny Sexton is lucky they weren't reffing upright tackles like that a few years ago, or he would have seen red for headbutting Bastareaud and a few others. Still think it's harsh, the Zebre player changes his direction at the last second for me, hard to expect AP to react in time. Anyway, we'll see tomorrow.

ElisaAtWar · 26-11-2020 1:12am

Always wonder about tacking skills, both giving and taking. If you look at Butler and think back to Muldoon, there is little to no injury profile. Why is that, while others seem to be forever injured

FACECUTTR · 26-11-2020 1:30pm

Is the team announcement today ?

Former Coach · 26-11-2020 1:52pm

Mul, it's over

FACECUTTR wrote: »

Is the team announcement today ?

Tomorrow at noon I'd say.

Burkie1203 · 26-11-2020 2:24pm

Mul, it's over

Zzippy wrote: »

Johnny Sexton is lucky they weren't reffing upright tackles like that a few years ago, or he would have seen red for headbutting Bastareaud and a few others. Still think it's harsh, the Zebre player changes his direction at the last second for me, hard to expect AP to react in time. Anyway, we'll see tomorrow.

Papaili wasn't upright.

Sexton usually was.

Connacht Team Talk Thread V - The Friend Zone

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