Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 17-05-2019 6:05pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

How many of the recommendations made by Sir Sabaratnam Arulkumaran, Professor of Gynaecology at St George's London, have been implemented?

Do you know *any* of the recommendations, apart from the one about clarifying the law on abortion?

You seem to think that I'm anti repeal. I'm not even going to try and argue that because it's so preposterous.

If you want to know how Savita Halappanavar came into this, read back in the thread.
Anyone who gives a damn about women was concerned about the lack of provision for abortion in Irish law, as there was, AND the serious shortfalls described in the report into Savita Halappanavar's death -- quite an extraordinary series of medical negligence shortcomings.

The woman is still being used in a political dogfight, despite abortion finally being liberalised, and nobody seems to care whether the direct causes of her death as described in the report have been addressed.

That does not do justice to Savita Halappanavar, or to any woman.

I don't think you're anti-repeal, I'm just taking issue with your tack here. For what it's worth while I disagree with you I appreciate and respect that this is a sincerely held good-faith opinion which you put forth despite it being "off message" so to speak, with the people with whom you generally agree in this wider debate.

However I still think it's bullsh1t. I have read that report, I have read this thread.

To my knowledge zero of the recommendations have been implemented but I haven't checked recently. Similarly the ancillary recommendations of the citizens' assembly on the 8th amendment such as universal access to free contraception and sex education reform have stalled. I have brought those issues up when I've been canvassed recently and with the exception of one candidate who was heavily involved with the Cork Together for Yes branch, they literally didn't know what I was talking about.

The woman has become more symbol than person yes, but it's very clear where the people who can be most clearly seen to represent her and her views fall in this debate.

Gimme A Pound · 17-05-2019 6:13pm

Sweet.Science wrote: »

But a normal abortion is fine . Isn’t that baby also deprived of life ?

Looney lefties

That person is anti abortion so I don't know why you're quoting them.

kowloon · 17-05-2019 6:17pm

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

A group of cells is all it was and unless they have other children they are not parents

I'd say you'd be some comfort to the couple in question. Sometimes it's okay to empathise over pursuing an agenda.

JeffKenna · 17-05-2019 6:19pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Amirani wrote: »

No, we don't is the answer. Would you like to spend more money to bring all this testing in-house within the HSE?

100%. This should not be being done by private, for-profit organisations - and it certainly shouldn't be being done outside the state, by organisations outside the state. The CervicalCheck scandal should have been evidence enough that the model was flawed.

From my reading of this case it was the two in-house tests gave the false result where the outsourced one provided the correct result?

Charles Ingles · 17-05-2019 6:26pm

Sweet.Science wrote: »

But a normal abortion is fine . Isn’t that baby also deprived of life ?

Looney lefties

Ha first time I've been called a leftie

Atoms for Peace · 17-05-2019 6:30pm

Id like to post some things but I'd be banned, goodnight.

Charles Ingles · 17-05-2019 6:33pm

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

A group of cells is all it was and unless they have other children they are not parents

Shame on you, that poor couple are going through a tragedy losing a child.
They could read that awful post

Gimme A Pound · 17-05-2019 7:20pm

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Id like to post some things but I'd be banned, goodnight.

No offence, but pointless post.

Plumbthedepths · 17-05-2019 7:37pm

Charles Ingles wrote:

Shame on you, that poor couple are going through a tragedy losing a child. They could read that awful post

At 15 weeks gestation it isn't a child.

hatrickpatrick · 17-05-2019 7:47pm

Blaise Colossal Schwa wrote: »

No offence, but pointless post.

No offence, but pointless post.

17-05-2019 7:49pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

At 15 weeks gestation it isn't a child.

*Drops an apple on the ground*

OMG I just felled an apple tree

Mrs OBumble · 17-05-2019 7:51pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

At 15 weeks gestation it isn't a child.

Try telling that to a woman who miscarried at 15 weeks, and wanted the baby.

lainey_d_123 · 17-05-2019 7:52pm

And here's the other side of the coin. My cousin and his wife were told that their baby likely had a genetic defect and wouldn't live long after birth. They chose to go ahead with the pregnancy given that there was a tiny chance that the doctors were wrong and the baby would be born healthy.

He wasn't born healthy. He was put on life support and lived for 3 days before it was withdrawn. My cousin's wife had to go through nine months of pregnancy and still runs into people who ask her how the baby is, because they haven't heard what happened. They had to organise his funeral basically as soon as he was born. The mental turmoil must be enormous.

Sure, it's easy with hindsight to criticise someone for jumping the gun, but most of the time, these prognoses are accurate.

Plumbthedepths · 17-05-2019 7:55pm

Mrs OBumble wrote:

Try telling that to a woman who miscarried at 15 weeks, and wanted the baby.

I'm curious why do people make stupid suggestions like this?

amcalester · 17-05-2019 7:56pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I'm curious why do people make stupid suggestions like this?

They might not realize it’s stupid.

recedite · 17-05-2019 8:03pm

Does anyone else think its a bit strange that the couple had all these tests done on their foetus?
I mean, are they standard nowadays, or is this something you pay extra for?
Maybe the foetus was undersized or something?

We have 3 kids, didn't even know if they were boys or girls until after they were born. The nurse looking at the ultrasound asked whether we wanted to know in advance, but we said no.

SusieBlue · 17-05-2019 8:06pm

recedite wrote: »

Does anyone else think its a bit strange that the couple had all these tests done on their foetus?
I mean, are they standard nowadays, or is this something you pay extra for?

We have 3 kids, didn't even know if they were boys or girls until after they were born. The nurse looking at the ultrasound asked whether we wanted to know in advance, but we said no.

I believe they are offered if the woman is over 35 and/or there is a known disability/FFA in the family.
My cousin is only 24 and was offered the harmony test because another cousin has Down’s syndrome. Down’s syndrome is chromosomal, not genetic, but they still offered.

recedite · 17-05-2019 8:12pm

I just wonder whether (prospective) parents are becoming too picky.
The more screening tests you do, the more false positives are going to crop up.

17-05-2019 8:12pm

recedite wrote: »

Does anyone else think its a bit strange that the couple had all these tests done on their foetus?
I mean, are they standard nowadays, or is this something you pay extra for?

Yes it's a little bit extra (unless it's now changed).

We had a baby almost 1.5 years ago and baby's Mum had the blood screening. I would imagine most women have it done these days. I don't really understand why you wouldn't want to know, whatever your subsequent choice.

Like, do you love surprises that much or..?

recedite · 17-05-2019 8:17pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I would imagine most women have it done these days.

Maybe not in the public wards though.

Mena Mitty · 17-05-2019 8:42pm

My thoughts are with the parents and the thousands of parents down the years who were in a similar position as this couple, made the same decision and tonight are wondering 'what if'

ILoveYourVibes · 17-05-2019 8:50pm

Its very sad.

Lets not let it happen again.

I don't think i could ever have an abortion ...i am pro-choice for other people though.

bfa1509 · 17-05-2019 9:00pm

Is Edwards Syndrome even classified as a fatal fetal abnormality? I fear how blurry the lines are going to get.

Igotadose · 17-05-2019 9:01pm

Great article about right-wing hypocrisy when it comes to abortion.

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/abortion-is-immoral-except-when-it-comes-to-my-mistresses

Earlier article, same idea, doesn't name names though:
http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml

Plumbthedepths · 17-05-2019 9:08pm

bfa1509 wrote:

Is Edwards Syndrome even classified as a fatal fetal abnormality? I fear how blurry the lines are going to get.

A quick Google search confirms it is, also referred to as Trisomy 18.

recedite · 17-05-2019 9:12pm

bfa1509 wrote: »

I fear how blurry the lines are going to get.

Obviously we are not going to accept this one, if it has Downs Syndrome.
The eyes are too close together on that one.
This one is too hairy.
That one is black, I wonder how that happened?
Nope, that's a girl. We already have one of those.

amcalester · 17-05-2019 9:18pm

recedite wrote: »

Obviously we are not going to accept this one, if it has Downs Syndrome.
The eyes are too close together on that one.
This one is too hairy.
That one is black, I wonder how that happened?
Nope, that's a girl. We already have one of those.

None of which are likely to lead to the death of the child either before birth or within 28 days so are not grounds for an abortion after 12 weeks.

So not sure what point you’re trying to make.

Hobosan · 17-05-2019 9:26pm

amcalester wrote: »

None of which are likely to lead to the death of the child either before birth or within 28 days so are not grounds for an abortion after 12 weeks.

So not sure what point you’re trying to make.

Yeah the point isn't completely clear at all.

kowloon · 17-05-2019 9:27pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

At 15 weeks gestation it isn't a child.

But to parents expecting it matters, stop trying to brush away their loss to score points on a referendum debate that has already happened. It's the same as the people bitching that they decided to have the abortion in the first place.

jay0109 · 17-05-2019 9:31pm

Aborting a healthy baby on the back of a misdiagnosis. I presume that's what the Liberals would call collateral damage....a small price to pay for giving a dying Catholic Church and Conservative Ireland another kick. And it did lead to the design of a cool emblem and a chance to party when the results were announced.

Forward Ireland to a beautiful future....

gandalf · 17-05-2019 9:44pm

The Catholic church killed itself with its actions and subsequent cover ups. So sling your hook, your done just like the church.

Plumbthedepths · 17-05-2019 9:46pm

kowloon wrote:

But to parents expecting it matters, stop trying to brush away their loss to score points on a referendum debate that has already happened. It's the same as the people bitching that they decided to have the abortion in the first place.

You understand what a discussion forum is I trust.

jay0109 · 17-05-2019 9:47pm

gandalf wrote: »

The Catholic church killed itself with its actions and subsequent cover ups. So sling your hook, your done just like the church.

I couldn't give 2 hoots about the Catholic Church. If you could read clearly, you'd see I wasn't defending it or bigging it up at all.
I'm afraid your prejudices are getting in the way of a reasoned response

kowloon · 17-05-2019 9:48pm

jay0109 wrote: »

Aborting a healthy baby on the back of a misdiagnosis. I presume that's what the Liberals would call collateral damage....a small price to pay for giving a dying Catholic Church and Conservative Ireland another kick. And it did lead to the design of a cool emblem and a chance to party when the results were announced.

Forward Ireland to a beautiful future....

Can you at least accept that the parents chose an abortion to minimise suffering, not to cause it? To minimise suffering they made the correct decision which was unfortunately based on flawed information.

jay0109 · 17-05-2019 9:50pm

kowloon wrote: »

Can you at least accept that the parents chose an abortion to minimise suffering, not to cause it? To minimise suffering they made the correct decision which was unfortunately based on flawed information.

Can you accept that it was the introduction of abortion that will lead to more instances like this as parents hurry for test results before certain ages are reached for the baby in the womb. There can only be more cases like this

SusieBlue · 17-05-2019 9:55pm

jay0109 wrote: »

Can you accept that it was the introduction of abortion that will lead to more instances like this as parents hurry for test results before certain ages were reached of the baby. There can only be more cases like this

Introduction?
Abortion has been around since the dawn of time, all over the world.
So long as women have been getting pregnant, there have been women wanting to terminate.

Older methods included wire hangers & scalding baths, more recent procedures involved travelling to the UK to avail of the service from their health system.
Before repeal circa 10k Irish women a year were accessing abortion services, be it abroad or online, in this country.
Abortion has always and will always be in Ireland.

Before repeal those parents could have travelled to the UK as many thousands did before them.

The question last May was weather we wanted to make it safe and regulated or not, and thankfully, most of society agreed it was necessary.

Even with the 8th still in place those parents could have travelled to the UK and there would have been the same outcome.
The real issue here is the lack of difinitive diagnosis given but don’t let that stop you blaming the repeal movement.

jay0109 · 17-05-2019 10:00pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

Even with the 8th still in place those parents could have travelled to the UK and there would have been the same outcome.
The real issue here is the lack of difinitive diagnosis given but don’t let that stop you blaming the repeal movement.

They could have travelled but we don't know for sure that they would. Introducing it here to Ireland has definitely made it a less difficult choice for some.

I don't recall the Repeal side highlighting the issue of problems with 'difinitive diagnosis' during the debate. I suppose everyone thought, that with our well known 'world class' health service, that wouldn't be an issue :rolleyes:

Abortion is in and it's here to stay. All I'm saying is that a perfectly healthy baby had it's life ended. A baby it's parents wanted until they got a misdiagnosis.
And he/she will not be the last by any long way. But thats 'progress' I suppose

Plumbthedepths · 17-05-2019 10:05pm

jay0109 wrote:

Abortion is in and it's here to stay. All I'm saying is that a perfectly healthy baby had it's life ended. A baby it's parents wanted until they got a misdiagnosis. And he/she will not be the last by any long way. But thats 'progress' I suppose

20/20 hindsight is great.

kowloon · 17-05-2019 10:06pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You understand what a discussion forum is I trust.

No, never heard of him.

SusieBlue · 17-05-2019 10:10pm

jay0109 wrote: »

They could have travelled but we don't know for sure that they would. Introducing it here to Ireland has definitely made it a less difficult choice for some.

I don't recall the Repeal side highlighting the issue of problems with 'difinitive diagnosis' during the debate. I suppose everyone thought, that with our well known 'world class' health service, that wouldn't be an issue :rolleyes:

Abortion is in and it's here to stay. All I'm saying is that a perfectly healthy baby had it's life ended. A baby it's parents wanted until they got a misdiagnosis.
And he/she will not be the last by any long way. But thats 'progress' I suppose

But there is a strong possibility we would have had the exact same outcome prior to repeal with this situation, so your point is irrelevant.
You can’t say for sure that it wouldn’t have happened, so I’m not sure why you keep bringing it up.
The 8th wouldn’t have ‘saved’ this baby.

Putting extra obstacles in the way of people in a crisis is not the answer, and it doesn’t make the choice any more or less difficult for those it actually effects, as you so tactfully put it.

volchitsa · 17-05-2019 10:13pm

jay0109 wrote: »

Can you accept that it was the introduction of abortion that will lead to more instances like this as parents hurry for test results before certain ages are reached for the baby in the womb. There can only be more cases like this

How often do they happen in the UK then? Do they often go ahead and terminate before they've had the final results over there?
Because it looks to me like a probable medical negligence case. Something that happens everywhere of course, though there do seem to be more than the average in Ireland.

The question is how to identify the real causes so that it doesn't happen again, and maybe that's where the Irish healthcare system falls down.

heathledgerlove · 17-05-2019 10:14pm

2WG53 YR231U

Berserker · 17-05-2019 10:16pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is like the Cervical Check scandal - why the f*ck do we have to outsource all this sh!t to private companies in foreign countries? Do we not pour enough feckin' money into the HSE every year for them to be able to hire Irish scientists and run their own labs?

Nope doubt there's enough money in the kitty or people with the skills required to do the work over here.

endacl · 17-05-2019 10:20pm

There are a pair of grieving parents who may stumble across this thread.

Just a thought.

Jaster Rogue · 17-05-2019 10:21pm

jay0109 wrote: »

Abortion is in and it's here to stay. All I'm saying is that a perfectly healthy baby had it's life ended. A baby it's parents wanted until they got a misdiagnosis.
And he/she will not be the last by any long way. But thats 'progress' I suppose

Couldn't agree more, and it only took less than 3 months of this 'progressive' legislation coming in for a 'mistake' to occur. That must be some kind of record. There will be plenty more 'mistakes', of differing circumstances coming down the tracks. Killing the most innocent, most defenceless, most vulnerable human beings in our society is not progression in my opinion. It's f**king disgusting. I know boards has a strongly liberal user base, judging by the thanks count on pro abortion posts, but there is still 1/3 of this country's population that are not blinded by our politicians and liberal media's agenda. Shame on anyone who voted yes to repeal. Big brave men and women taking the life of a little baby.

SusieBlue · 17-05-2019 10:28pm

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

Couldn't agree more, and it only took less than 3 months of this 'progressive' legislation coming in for a 'mistake' to occur. There will be plenty more 'mistakes', of differing circumstances coming down the tracks. Killing the most innocent, most defenceless, most vulnerable human beings in our society is not progression in my opinion. It's f**king disgusting. I know boards has a strongly liberal user base, judging by the thanks count on pro abortion posts, but there is still 1/3 of this country's population that are not blinded by our politicians and liberal media's agenda. Shame on anyone who voted yes to repeal. Big brave men and women taking the life of a little baby.

You know nothing of the circumstances or issues of the strangers you would gladly take a choice away from.
Seeing as you won’t be the one who specifically has to live with the consequences maybe dig deep for a bit of compassion and gratitude that you can say with confidence that no matter what life throws at you, you wouldn’t have an abortion.
Good for you, I support that.
Not everyone has that luxury, and many others who made such a claim ended up going back on their word when life takes an unexpected turn.

Ideally there would be no abortion, but if it must happen it should be safe, legal and regulated.
The days of deporting our problems to foreign healthcare systems are thankfully finally over.

branie2 · 17-05-2019 10:29pm

Awful!

nullzero · 17-05-2019 10:33pm

What's interesting about this thread is the amount of people shouting about how this case has nothing to do with the vote to repeal whilst banging on at length about repeal.

This situation happened because of negligence. Anyone defending the actions of the doctor even in light of the fact that the parents (who know what's going on here as opposed to assuming things about the situation) are pursuing legal action is just being contrary.

In relation to repeal, the toothpaste is out of the tube and dragging up old animosities and arguments is an exercise in futility and nothing else.

votecounts · 17-05-2019 10:37pm

Shocking story, no words for the parents.
Not surprised given the state of our Health Service:(

Phil.x · 17-05-2019 10:41pm

Abhorrent process for the unborn health baby, i hope the parents can get over their throwaway actions.

Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

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