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Biological males in women's sport

1…3839414344

Comments

  • #2002
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    RWCNT wrote: »
    Yeah, but why? What do you find objectionable about the content of the article? Did you watch the podcast, and if so, is the article framing the conversation dishonestly?

    Yes, I've listened to a lot of the podcast (not all of it as his podcasts are long) and read the article. Why would you think I haven't?

    The part of the podcast I listened to was fascinating and I found Abigail Shrier to be very compassionate and measured. The writer seems like he hasn't listened to any of the podcast. Maybe he has but that was the distinct impression I got. It's a diatribe.

    And accusing Rogan of fanning the flames of hate is laughable. He is vocal about his concerns about males being allowed to play in women's sports divisions (rightly so, IMO) but other than that, he's pretty open-minded on the topic of transgender issues. He also has all kind so people on his show. What are people afraid of in hearing somebody they don't agree with?

    If you want to know more about the article or the podcast, why not listen to them yourself?


  • #2003
    RWCNT
    Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Yes, I've listened to a lot of the podcast (not all of it as his podcasts are long) and read the article. Why would you think I haven't?

    The part of the podcast I listened to was fascinating and I found Abigail Shrier to be very compassionate and measured. The writer seems like he hasn't listened to any of the podcast. Maybe he has but that was the distinct impression I got. It's a diatribe.

    And accusing Rogan of fanning the flames of hate is laughable. he is vocal about his concerns about males being allowed to play in women's sports divisions but other than that, he's pretty open-minded on the topic of transgender issues.

    If you want to know more about the article or the podcast, why not listen to them yourself?

    I wasn't thinking you hadn't, I just wanted to know the reasoning behind your reaction.

    Poor Joe does get a hard time of it, in fairness to him. Often framed as something he's not.

    Honestly, I can't really hack the JRE unless it's an episode about MMA.


  • #2004
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,731 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    RWCNT wrote: »
    Yeah, but why? What do you find objectionable about the content of the article? Did you watch the podcast, and if so, is the article framing the conversation dishonestly?

    I'm sympathetic of concerns about the impact of the trans issue on sports and gendered spaces, and those conversations need to be had openly and in good faith. But are we just deciding "Trans bad" and taking joy in any kind of hostile reaction towards anyone speaking up for trans people, just because?



    Yeah, but why? What do you find objectionable about the content of the article? Did you watch the podcast, and if so, is the article framing the conversation dishonestly?

    The article suggests this person asserted, without scientific evidence, that a surge in people wanting to transition is a "contagion". If that's true, then thats absolutely a concerning thing for someone to be putting out there. Imagine the knock-on effects that could stem from that kind of thinking. Parents wanting their kids taken out of class with a trans kid etc.
    I listened to the podcast. It was about a surge in a subset of people, teenage girls wanting to transition. Not adults. She was warning of the dangers of not having therapy first and the implementation of the possibility of girls transitioning on the basis of self diagnosis.

    Did you listen to it?


  • #2005
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    RWCNT wrote: »
    The article suggests this person asserted, without scientific evidence, that a surge in people wanting to transition is a "contagion". If that's true, then thats absolutely a concerning thing for someone to be putting out there. Imagine the knock-on effects that could stem from that kind of thinking. Parents wanting their kids taken out of class with a trans kid etc.

    This is a very new field. The phenomenon of teenage girls transitioning has really taken off in only the last five years or so. At the moment, all we really have are anecdotes. It will take time to compile a large amount of data. And, by the way, people have run in to difficulties in getting funding in researching people who regretted transitioning because universities are afraid of a backlash. So you're saying there's a lack of research but when people want to research the topic, they can't.

    Personally, I think caution is needed, even with scanty data because some the changes caused by transition will affect the person who regrets transition for the rest of their life. Not something I want to shrug my shoulders at personally.


  • #2006
    RWCNT
    Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    jam_mac_jam wrote: »
    I listened to the podcast. It was about a surge in a subset of people, teenage girls wanting to transition. Not adults. She was warning of the dangers of not having therapy first and the implementation of the possibility of girls transitioning on the basis of self diagnosis.

    Did you listen to it?

    I didn't, no, I don't really enjoy listening to Joe talk for a sustained period of time about anything other than martial arts and psychedelics. I was open to the notion that the article was misrepresenting Joe and was asking in good faith. There's a lot of suspect comments on the tweet, including the one linked here, that don't engage with anything said in the article though. I can't think of why people would do that other than to have a go at trans people really.

    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    This is a very new field. The phenomenon of teenage girls transitioning has really taken off in only the last five years or so. At the moment, all we really have are anecdotes. It will take time to compile a large amount of data. And, by the way, people have run in to difficulties in getting funding in researching people who regretted transitioning because universities are afraid of a backlash. So you're saying there's a lack of research but when people want to research the topic, they can't.

    Personally, I think caution is needed, even with scanty data because some the changes caused by transition will affect the person who regrets transition for the rest of their life. Not something I want to shrug my shoulders at personally.

    I can't disagree with any of that, although saying something like the contageoun remark without back-up is still very dodgy, if that is what was said. I'd support the kind of data collection you're talking about. Also, sorry for all the edits guys, my phone is being a prick.


  • #2007
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,731 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    RWCNT wrote: »
    I didn't, no, I don't really enjoy listening to Joe talk for a sustained period of time about anything other than martial arts and psychedelics. I was open to the notion that the article was misrepresenting Joe and was asking in good faith. There's a lot of suspect comments on the tweet, including the one linked here, that don't engage with anything said in the article though. I can't think of why people would do that other than to have a go at trans people really.




    I can't disagree with any of that, although saying something like the contageoun remark without back-up is still very dodgy, if that is what was said. I'd support the kind of data collection you're talking about. Also, sorry for all the edits guys, my phone is being a prick.

    I thought the article misrepresented her to be honest.

    She was quite specific that she was talking about a particular problem with teenage girls and how certain personality traits led some girls to transition due to peer pressure or other difficulties that they have. It is portrayed that she is saying it all a contagion. The title of her book doesn't help however.

    She is a journalist though not a scientific researcher so by nature anecdotal. I do agree with you that more study is needed on the subject. Though in the mean time if people are transitioning medically without proper consultation that needs to be questioned. Parents are afraid to question the child in case they are wrong and they should transition


  • #2008
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    RWCNT wrote: »
    I can't disagree with any of that, although saying something like the contageoun remark without back-up is still very dodgy, if that is what was said. I'd support the kind of data collection you're talking about. Also, sorry for all the edits guys, my phone is being a prick.

    The social contagion theory isn’t entirely without backup. A researcher from Brown University has published in a peer-reviewed journal on the topic. That doesn’t make it above criticism, of course, and criticised she was. That probably makes other researchers and funding bodies nervous of a backlash. My thoughts are, what are people afraid of? If they think there’s no social contagion aspect, won’t the research reflect that?


  • #2009
    StinkyMunkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭StinkyMunkey


    Maybe it's been asked before, but have any trans men taken part in a sport and dominated it? Without even checking, I'll hazard a guess and say no.

    Trans people can't be identified as whom ever they which, but you cannot change your biology or the attributes that come with it. Trans woman dominating woman's sports is a farce, why should woman in sports be penalised because of how a person identifies.


  • #2010
    engleburt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭engleburt


    If you see sport as another form of entertainment like a Movie or TV show, you should be all for Biological males in Womens sports, you just know there will be lots of drama and laughs as the biological Women get beaten time after time, it will be great entertainment.


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  • #2011
    ingalway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭ingalway


    StinkyMunkey wrote: »
    Maybe it's been asked before, but have any trans men taken part in a sport and dominated it? Without even checking, I'll hazard a guess and say no.

    Trans people can't be identified as whom ever they which, but you cannot change your biology or the attributes that come with it. Trans woman dominating woman's sports is a farce, why should woman in sports be penalised because of how a person identifies.
    Would Bruce Jenner have won an Olympic decathlon gold medal had he been born Caitlyn then transitioned to Bruce? Not in a million years. Females can never compete with males, it's unfair and it's dangerous.


  • #2012
    Tired Gardener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭Tired Gardener


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/IStandWithHer1/status/1286189910467260416?s=19

    Here seems to be another example of it, though from few years ago. Horrible back story, but that doesn't make a 50 year old male playing basketball with (college age) women at this level acceptable! The tweets make a good point though. What about the girl that this trans-women took the place off!

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2012/12/04/college-basketball-transgender-player-gabrielle-ludwig-robert-ludwig-mission-college/1744703/

    Wait... So let me get this right, a male to female transgender of 51 year old is in a team of 18-20 year old women. Why aren't they in a team of the same age? Surely the age gap of 31-33 years gives them a huge experience advantage.

    None of that makes any sense, are people seriously ok with this?


  • #2013
    Invidious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 528 ✭✭✭Invidious


    Tired Gardener wrote: »
    Wait... So let me get this right, a male to female transgender of 51 year old is in a team of 18-20 year old women. Why aren't they in a team of the same age? Surely the age gap of 31-33 years gives them a huge experience advantage.

    None of that makes any sense, are people seriously ok with this?

    This story is from 2012, AFAIK.

    You can play on a college sports team if you're an enrolled student. Obviously most students are in the 18-22 age range but mature students are also eligible.

    I'm not sure that age alone gives a player an advantage (an average 20-year-old would surely run rings around an average 50-year-old on the basketball court) but the fact that they were male-bodied and 6' 6" tall might help just a little bit.


  • #2014
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,360 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Invidious wrote: »
    This story is from 2012, AFAIK.

    You can play on a college sports team if you're an enrolled student. Obviously most students are in the 18-22 age range but mature students are also eligible.

    I'm not sure that age alone gives a player an advantage (an average 20-year-old would surely run rings around an average 50-year-old on the basketball court) but the fact that they were male-bodied and 6' 6" tall might help just a little bit.

    That person had already played basketball their first time around in college and had also had worked as a basketball coach during their adult life. So, yes, they had an advantage. I wonder would they be so quick to recruit a 50 year old female to the team? Cant see it happening somehow.


  • #2015
    ingalway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭ingalway


    Tired Gardener wrote: »
    Wait... So let me get this right, a male to female transgender of 51 year old is in a team of 18-20 year old women. Why aren't they in a team of the same age? Surely the age gap of 31-33 years gives them a huge experience advantage.

    None of that makes any sense, are people seriously ok with this?
    No matter what the persons age is a trans woman should not be on any female team.


  • #2016
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    ingalway wrote: »
    No matter what the persons age is a trans woman should not be on any female team.

    Exactly. A woman lost a place on that team because of it.


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  • #2017
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,360 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Exactly. A woman lost a place on that team because of it.

    Not just a place on the team. With scholarships, a woman could have lost a place in college. The 2 male athletes currently dominating track in Connecticut will have their pick of colleges. The girls they displaced, probably not so much.


  • #2018
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Not just a place on the team. With scholarships, a woman could have lost a place in college. The 2 male athletes currently dominating track in Connecticut will have their pick of colleges. The girls they displaced, probably not so much.

    Surely colleges must be a bit reluctant to give scholarships to transgender athletes? I think transgender women competing in women’s sports will be a relatively short-lived phenomenon so it doesn’t seem like a wise investment.


  • #2019
    ingalway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭ingalway


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Surely colleges must be a bit reluctant to give scholarships to transgender athletes? I think transgender women competing in women’s sports will be a relatively short-lived phenomenon so it doesn’t seem like a wise investment.
    You must be joking - if they didn't laud them for their great achievements and give them female scholarship places there would be major fallout for them - they would be called out for transphobia, people would be cancelled and fired and more safe spaces would need to be provided for the triggered students.


  • #2020
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    ingalway wrote: »
    You must be joking - if they didn't laud them for their great achievements and give them female scholarship places there would be major fallout for them - they would be called out for transphobia, people would be cancelled and fired and more safe spaces would need to be provided for the triggered students.

    I don’t know. More than any other facet of this wider debate, transgender women in women’s sports is the area that enjoys the least support, from what I can see. The more it’s highlighted, the more it seems to be criticised.


  • #2021
    ingalway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭ingalway


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I don’t know. More than any other facet of this wider debate, transgender women in women’s sports is the area that enjoys the least support, from what I can see. The more it’s highlighted, the more it seems to be criticised.
    I really wish you were right and it were that simple. Trans rights activists are so vocal and apply so much pressure that people dare not step out of line, the repercussions are vicious, no where more so than on a college campus. It is hate speech to 'misgender' someone, even if that person has a beard, an adams apple and deep voice - if they say they are female, or non-binary, you MUST refer to them as she/her/they/them. If you are uncomfortable with them in the female changing rooms having a shower with you then you are expected to leave. Universities, more than anywhere else, have allowed this identity politics madness to prevail; I don't see them having the balls, literally, to come back from it.


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  • #2022
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,401 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    ingalway wrote: »
    You must be joking - if they didn't laud them for their great achievements and give them female scholarship places there would be major fallout for them - they would be called out for transphobia, people would be cancelled and fired and more safe spaces would need to be provided for the triggered students.

    Do you have any examples of this please? (Not disbelieving you, I know there are some crazy things going on, but I think it's important to be able to name/link to them.)

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • #2023
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Do you have any examples of this please? (Not disbelieving you, I know there are some crazy things going on, but I think it's important to be able to name/link to them.)

    I don’t think it has happened yet. But one thing about the Connecticut case is that it stopped a few girls qualifying for the state championships where college scouts would be present.

    I’m not convinced that college scholarships will be given to transgender athletes. It a significant financial outlay and you want to know you’ll see a benefit from it. If in a few years, transgender women can no longer compete in women’s sports, it will have been for nothing.


  • #2024
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Do you have any examples of this please? (Not disbelieving you, I know there are some crazy things going on, but I think it's important to be able to name/link to them.)

    I can't give you any examples but when you think about it logically, it has to be happening. My rationale for thinking this is set out below.

    Certain colleges normally have a set number of sporting scholarships for males and females each year, e.g. 5 spots for female sprinters and 5 spots for male sprinters. So, if a transwoman excels at sprinting (which they most likely would due to the physical advantage that male puberty gives them), they are likely to be chosen ahead of natural born female sprinters............therefore denying the natural born female sprinter of her place in college.

    Transwomen are displacing women from the podium so it's not a stretch to see them displacing them when it comes to female scholarships too.


  • #2025
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,401 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I can't give you any examples but when you think about it logically, it has to be happening. My rationale for thinking this is set out below.

    Certain colleges normally have a set number of sporting scholarships for males and females each year, e.g. 5 spots for female sprinters and 5 spots for male sprinters. So, if a transwoman excels at sprinting (which they most likely would due to the physical advantage that male puberty gives them), they are likely to be chosen ahead of natural born female sprinters............therefore denying the natural born female sprinter of her place in college.

    Transwomen are displacing women from the podium so it's not a stretch to see them displacing them when it comes to female scholarships too.

    It's not a stretch - I was prepared to believe it if there was any sort of link, but people still shouldn't make false claims. If it's not happening, then it's a lie to say it is. Apart from anything else, if it ever does happen then nobody will believe it if they fell for a lie about it before.

    It's easy for trans activists to disprove this sort of untrue claim so as to discredit anyone who has any concerns about trans gender issues. There's enough true stuff that's happening without making sh1t up.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • #2026
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,253 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbt-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

    Dear me.
    There is no one way for women’s bodies to be. Women, including women who are transgender, intersex, or disabled, have a range of different physical characteristics.
    so trans women competing in the ladies special olympics next it seems.


  • #2027
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbt-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

    Dear me.


    so trans women competing in the ladies special olympics next it seems.

    That article is promoting the removal of gender in sport it seems, with no differentiation between Men/Women


  • #2028
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,253 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »
    That article is promoting the removal of gender in sport it seems, with no differentiation between Men/Women

    Or disability.

    So basically sport = able bodied people born male.


  • #2029
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    volchitsa wrote: »
    It's not a stretch - I was prepared to believe it if there was any sort of link, but people still shouldn't make false claims. If it's not happening, then it's a lie to say it is. Apart from anything else, if it ever does happen then nobody will believe it if they fell for a lie about it before.

    It's easy for trans activists to disprove this sort of untrue claim so as to discredit anyone who has any concerns about trans gender issues. There's enough true stuff that's happening without making sh1t up.

    I do agree.

    I just think people are just trying to envisage where this will go though, what the logical conclusion will be.

    I try to base my own posts on things that have already happened. The Connecticut teenagers missing out on a college scout-attended event, the UFC fighter who broke another competitor’s skull (and gloated about it afterwards) and the likes of Laurel Hubbard stealing the top of the podium from others and potentially qualifying for the Olympics ahead of them.


  • #2030
    ingalway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭ingalway


    GreeBo wrote: »
    https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbt-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

    Dear me.


    so trans women competing in the ladies special olympics next it seems.

    There absolutely is not one way for all women's bodies to look like but they absolutely are all biologically female.

    Disabled women are females, black women are females, people with Disorders of Sex Development are either male or female - they are not some mythical 3rd sex and nothing whatsoever to do with trans issues.

    The trans 'community', mostly white males, keep using women who they do not deem as real women as some kind of reason that they are just as much a woman as a black, disabled, DSD woman. It's completely racist, ableist and insulting and they should be called out on it. I have seen many of the above women absolutely furious at being othered by trans people as though they are not good enough/real enough women.
    Trans women are trans women and they need to sort their own issues out - they are not women's issues.


  • #2031
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    ingalway wrote: »
    There absolutely is not one way for all women's bodies to look like but they absolutely are all biologically female.

    Disabled women are females, black women are females, people with Disorders of Sex Development are either male or female - they are not some mythical 3rd sex and nothing whatsoever to do with trans issues.

    The trans 'community', mostly white males, keep using women who they do not deem as real women as some kind of reason that they are just as much a woman as a black, disabled, DSD woman. It's completely racist, ableist and insulting and they should be called out on it. I have seen many of the above women absolutely furious at being othered by trans people as though they are not good enough/real enough women.
    Trans women are trans women and they need to sort their own issues out - they are not women's issues.

    Yeah, that happens to black women all the time and it’s disgusting. Black women are females. The only difference is more melanin. So their exclusion from the same spaces as white women decades ago was despicable and not comparable to women not wanting to share spaces with people who are 99% of the time going to be way stronger than them and who would be classed under male pattern criminality, not female. The way black women are used by some transgender activists is completely racist, by othering them.


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  • #2032
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    300 female athletes signed a letter sent to the US NCAA, which is the association regulating college athletics, asking that female sports be protected for biological women, and specifically that Idaho state not be boycotted for passing regulations supporting such protection.
    Some signed just first names or initials because of feeling afraid of punishment.
    All the names on the letter were published yesterday by Outsports, from a leak by NCAA. Outsports claims they are not on a "witch hunt" nor do they encourage "violence" by what is effectively doxxing.
    Yeah, sure Outsports.

    https://www.outsports.com/platform/amp/2020/8/2/21351786/ncaa-300-women-athletes-signatories-letter-save-womens-sports-transgender-inclusion?utm_campaign=outsports&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true


  • #2033
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Gruffalox wrote: »
    300 female athletes signed a letter sent to the US NCAA, which is the association regulating college athletics, asking that female sports be protected for biological women, and specifically that Idaho state not be boycotted for passing regulations supporting such protection.
    Some signed just first names or initials because of feeling afraid of punishment.
    All the names on the letter were published yesterday by Outsports, from a leak by NCAA. Outsports claims they are not on a "witch hunt" nor do they encourage "violence" by what is effectively doxxing.
    Yeah, sure Outsports.

    https://www.outsports.com/platform/amp/2020/8/2/21351786/ncaa-300-women-athletes-signatories-letter-save-womens-sports-transgender-inclusion?utm_campaign=outsports&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true

    Kween Martina is the first signatory. Love that woman.

    Honestly, I’m happy for stunts like this. It helps highlight the absurdities. This will be an own goal for that publication.


  • #2034
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Dawn Ennis who wrote that article seems like a real class act. They is doing god's work keeping these cis women in line.


  • #2035
    SoupMonster
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭SoupMonster


    Gruffalox wrote: »
    Yeah, sure Outsports.

    There are quite a few feel good news stories on that site that follow a common theme.
    - Man tells coach/teammates he's gay.
    - Coach/teammates don't care.
    - Man so overcome with joy at their ambivalence that he writes to OutSports to express his gratitude.

    Riveting stuff.


  • #2036
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Or disability.

    So basically sport = able bodied people born male.

    Is there any sport where a woman would beat a man in, certainly not any of the mainstream Olympic sports


  • #2037
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    Still waters wrote: »
    Is there any sport where a woman would beat a man in, certainly not any of the mainstream Olympic sports

    Some gymnastic events.


  • #2038
    Dave0301
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭Dave0301


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Kween Martina is the first signatory. Love that woman.

    Honestly, I’m happy for stunts like this. It helps highlight the absurdities. This will be an own goal for that publication.

    It is baffling they can't see the hypocrisy in the pursuit of "equal" rights that results in the inequality on female athletes that have worked and train hard in their respective sports.

    Putting aside all the other strands that make up the current debate around this topic. Transgender women that have gone through male puberty will have an inherent physical advantage, and that is inescapable.

    It will be interesting to see what comes from the work that World Rugby are doing at the moment. It may be possible to take cases in the future on a case by case basis, but allowing it to happen without proper procedures in place will result in non transwomen being discriminated against, and in some sports, being exposed to a serious risk of injury.


  • #2039
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    Realistically what they're doing is opening up sport so men can dominate 99 percent of games, it seems a backwards step to womens rights and the feminist movement to have men prominent in all sports categories, it reminds me of the time the jenner fella won woman of the year, good job by all actively involved in putting women at the back of the queue once again


  • #2040
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    It is baffling they can't see the hypocrisy in the pursuit of "equal" rights that results in the inequality on female athletes that have worked and train hard in their respective sports.

    Putting aside all the other strands that make up the current debate around this topic. Transgender women that have gone through male puberty will have an inherent physical advantage, and that is inescapable.

    It will be interesting to see what comes from the work that World Rugby are doing at the moment. It may be possible to take cases in the future on a case by case basis, but allowing it to happen without proper procedures in place will result in non transwomen being discriminated against, and in some sports, being exposed to a serious risk of injury.

    You mean women? :D :P


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  • #2041
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    All this would be moot if we just allowed all sexes to compete against each other.

    I can't see how allowing trans athletes to compete in the opposite SEX categories is any different.

    (Note SEX not gender)


  • #2042
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    You mean women? :D :P

    Haha! While I agree with Dave I noticed that too. It is creeping in. I saw someone on Twitter recently who was genuinely eager to build bridges against what they could see was erasure of woman as an ontological category in not just language but accepted meaning, and in their youthful naivety said- there has just got to be another word for humans who have uteruses, vaginas and female parts from birth...it just can't be women.


  • #2043
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Deleted User wrote: »
    All this would be moot if we just allowed all sexes to compete against each other.

    I can't see how allowing trans athletes to compete in the opposite SEX categories is any different.

    (Note SEX not gender)

    Why would we do that? It would decimate women's sports.


  • #2044
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Why would we do that? It would decimate women's sports.

    I wholeheartedly agree. I'm just saying that advocating for transgender athletes to compete in the opposite sex's categories is no different than allowing that.

    The only other option I can think of is to have a separate category for trans athletes which is absolutely fair in my opinion.


  • #2045
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Still waters wrote: »
    Realistically what they're doing is opening up sport so men can dominate 99 percent of games, it seems a backwards step to womens rights and the feminist movement to have men prominent in all sports categories, it reminds me of the time the jenner fella won woman of the year, good job by all actively involved in putting women at the back of the queue once again

    What i found really galling was all the women saying how great it was for Jenner to win...But seriously imagine being a women from a poor background/suffered hardships etc, overcoming those and contributing to society for that piece of sh!t Jenner to win(before transitioning, Jenner killed a man while driving dangerously, but its transphobic to mention that)


  • #2046
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    c.p.w.g.w wrote: »
    What i found really galling was all the women saying how great it was for Jenner to win...But seriously imagine being a women from a poor background/suffered hardships etc, overcoming those and contributing to society for that piece of sh!t Jenner to win(before transitioning, Jenner killed a man while driving dangerously, but its transphobic to mention that)

    I think officially Bruce won the medals and was involved in the car incident but Kaitlyn was the one who was in I'm a Celeb so if you refer to the car incident, you are "dead naming"


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  • #2047
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think officially Bruce won the medals and was involved in the car incident but Kaitlyn was the one who was in I'm a Celeb so if you refer to the car incident, you are "dead naming"

    Ah yeah that load of bollocks...The same person still killed that man...Same way if i changed my name legally after committing a crime, i'd still would have committed the crime


  • #2048
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I wholeheartedly agree. I'm just saying that advocating for transgender athletes to compete in the opposite sex's categories is no different than allowing that.

    The only other option I can think of is to have a separate category for trans athletes which is absolutely fair in my opinion.

    It would be such a tiny category. I know the counterargument there is that if it's such a small number of athletes, then women's sports wouldn't really be under threat, but that small pool of transgender athletes could really skew things for women because the physical advantages are so great.


  • #2049
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Why would we do that? It would decimate women's sports.

    Tokyo Testosterone Olympics 2030


  • #2050
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    It would be such a tiny category. I know the counterargument there is that if it's such a small number of athletes, then women's sports wouldn't really be under threat, but that small pool of transgender athletes could really skew things for women because the physical advantages are so great.

    I'm afraid that's just tough ****. Trans athletes don't fit into their preferred category by virtue of their biology so either be in a niche category or come to terms that you can't compete.


  • #2051
    Dave0301
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭Dave0301


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    You mean women? :D :P
    Gruffalox wrote: »
    Haha! While I agree with Dave I noticed that too. It is creeping in. I saw someone on Twitter recently who was genuinely eager to build bridges against what they could see was erasure of woman as an ontological category in not just language but accepted meaning, and in their youthful naivety said- there has just got to be another word for humans who have uteruses, vaginas and female parts from birth...it just can't be women.

    I didn't want to use the term cis as it has negative connotations imo, and I didn't want the post to not be taken seriously because I am a "bigot" :o

    Which to be fair, is another aspect to this whole thing e.g. cancel culture and people being afraid to express an opinion for fear of being piled on.


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