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€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

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    #152
    mikegermany
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭mikegermany


    The newish super-hospital in Glasgow cost just over a billion euro

    Over 1100 beds total

    Approx 3/4 for the adult hospital and just under 300 beds for the adjoining children's hospital


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    #153
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    It doesn't have to be the lowest offer, but the criteria have to be laid out beforehand. The issue here is more that the estimate was massively under the tenders received.

    It doesn't have to be however the criteria are heavily weighted so that price is basically the only real factor.

    First they came for the socialists...



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    #154
    Tefral
    Registered Users Posts: 4,313 ✭✭✭Tefral


    twinytwo wrote: »
    One thing that is seemingly never introduced in government contracts is fixed pricing. If the build goes over budget there should be penalties in place.

    Actually the GCCC form of contract is a fixed price contract. There must have been additional items added to the drawings and specifications byt he design team. I also know this to be true as i know quite a few suppliers working away in the back ground on this.

    I also know BAM's MO is to go in low and then flood the design team with Clause 10 claims for information and extensions of time etc.


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    #155
    mikegermany
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭mikegermany


    What's the 'cost per bed' then?

    Must be around 6 million lol


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    #156
    Tefral
    Registered Users Posts: 4,313 ✭✭✭Tefral


    mikegermany wrote: »
    What's the 'cost per bed' then?

    Must be around 6 million lol

    Theres 473 beds going into it i believe. 380 room and 93 daycare rooms.

    So roughly 2.96m per bed.

    The original design didn't include for as many operating rooms, There's a medical college dept going in there also which wasnt originally allowed for.


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    #157
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,079 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    No, but James' is the best connected hospital by public transport.

    Best connected in Ireland is hardly the same as London.
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    So is your issue with the level of public transport or the concept of travelling via public transport? Ambulances aren't about to deposit people at a train station to pop up to Heuston. The vast majority of people flowing in and out of the hospital will not be critically ill children. The new NCH will have, incidentally, about 500 parking spaces in it.

    Who the feck is going to use public transport to get from anywhere in Ireland to Dublin with a child that is need of some sort of treatment?
    Public transport in Ireland is slow, not connected which means it is fecking useless for all, but the healthy lucky ones or the determined ones.
    Somehow I think you are the latter.

    BTW when you speak of 500 spaces, how many has the James hospital site lost already due to the development there?
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    They are developing units in Tallaght and Connolly because they are more easily accessible. But the highly specialised care will be done in the NCH where it can be done best. They are literally trying to both address concerns about access while maintaining the best standards of care and people are complaining about the cost. Tallaght and Connolly are also almost completely inaccessible for people without a car.

    Isn't that totally defeating the whole thing and actually a full admission that access to James site is problematic already before it has even opened, sorry been built.
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    What this is an example of is a political party not interfering in a decision and following expert advice. But apparently everyone else knows better because the single most important factor in a hospital is how easy it is to drive to it.

    You can expert advice to back almost any decision you make.
    Hell there are experts out there that advice people that there is no climate change and mankind has nothing to do with it.

    BTW wasn't there expert advice that the Mater was the best site ?

    No it is not just how easy it is to drive to.
    It is available space for expansion, you know plan for tomorrow and not just yesterday. :rolleyes:
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Two massive hospitals, so that it is co-located with a tertiary referral hospital. That is quite the investment.

    Also it turns out doctors are actually people and can not in fact be moved like furniture.

    Just for clarification, what people actually seem to want is more political interference in infrastructure decisions and a focus on money over providing best services to people?

    People move for work everyday, but I get your point.
    These are employees of our health system where staff have demanded compensation for moving a mile down the road, where staff have refused to move to a new maternity hospital when it opened, supposedly on safety grounds, but really it is they hadn't got a kickback.

    BTW lets hang our credentials here, do you work in health service or are close to someone that does ?
    I do have someone close working in health service.
    Anita Blow wrote: »
    It does provide increased bed capacity? The NCH provides 400+ single rooms (our current hospitals have up to 6 beds in a ward). Temple St has 94 inpatient beds, Crumlin 187 beds and Tallaght has a very small paediatric dept so its about 300 beds in total. In addition to this there will be inpatient beds in the new satellite centres so capacity can be significantly increased.

    I thought the new satellite centres were meant to be emergency, you now say they have inpatient beds as well ?

    So we are spending a fortune on this new chrildrens hospital, but we also have to spend on Tallaght and Connolly anyway because James site is inaccessible?
    FFS a typical Irish solution.
    Anita Blow wrote: »
    Proposing to build an entirely new adult hospital was dealt with in the Dolphin report. They ultimately advised against it because it would cost multiples of what the current NCH is costing and we don't have the population nor budget to support a 6th adult tertiary hospital.

    If traffic becomes a major issue then the area around the hospital can be CPO'd and roads widened for a fraction of that price.

    It already is if you ask anyone that has anything to do with James.

    Do you actually live in Ireland at all.
    How long did it take for Luas to manage a fraction of that with regards CPOs?

    I think I recall you always being very gungho about the James site ?
    I wonder why:rolleyes:


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    #158
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,079 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    FG aren't responsible for this. FG are only responsible for the good things that happen in Ireland. Everything else someone else needs to take personal responsibility.

    They are very responsible for this.
    But so are our HSE and health service.
    And so is every politician of every shade and for that matter the citizens of this state.
    Why?
    Well because everytime anyone has an idea about reforming the system they are shot down and there are protests and marches organised.

    What do you think would happen if the government, any government, said in the morning they were laying off all the duplicate admin staff in the HSE, rationalising the management and forcing in new contracts for consultants ??

    There would be uproar from every politician in opposition and half the backbenchers would be foaming at the mouth.

    If a minister suddenly started forcing HSE and Dept of Health to fire people for incompetency the unions and representative bodies would be calling for strikes.
    Besides by the looks of it half the staff would be gone.


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    #159
    mikegermany
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭mikegermany


    Tefral wrote: »
    Theres 473 beds going into it i believe. 380 room and 93 daycare rooms.

    So roughly 2.96m per bed.

    The original design didn't include for as many operating rooms, There's a medical college dept going in there also which wasnt originally allowed for.

    I thought it was much lower


    The same delays and bottlenecks will be there after this large capital spend


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    #160
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Being Ireland, someone somewhere got a brown envelope to "spare" the m50 site for a new private childrens hospital

    So then you'll have a choice :

    you could bring your child to nice private hospital where we've accelerators n all the shiny stuff and they all know what they're doing

    or be packed like ants into the anthill that is nch


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    #161
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    thecomedian wrote: »
    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    I don't know how the good folks at BAM keep a straight face when they are presenting their revised figures to the gombeens

    Do you realize that it could go to court if the lowest offer isn’t accepted. Which could take god knows how long to get through and could delay the build

    If your tendered amount is out by the final cost by over 50% it should end up in court


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    #162
    Tefral
    Registered Users Posts: 4,313 ✭✭✭Tefral


    smurgen wrote: »
    If your tendered amount is out by the final cost by over 50% it should end up in court

    Tenders don't just magically expand without oversight. They are expanded by design changes.


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    #163
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Tefral wrote: »
    smurgen wrote: »
    If your tendered amount is out by the final cost by over 50% it should end up in court

    Tenders don't just magically expand without oversight. They are expanded by design changes.

    Did the design change include increasing the size of the hospital by 2.5 times the original size because that's probably the only way i would see the jump in cost of that magnitude being justified.also no coincidence it's BAM involved here. They same crowd who pulled a trick on the events centre in Cork.the turning of the soil on that site was 3 years ago and ever since they've being trying to hustle more money from the government and building has not started. Maybe they should be suspended from bidding on new projects.


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    #164
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,475 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Considerably portion of me doesn’t care about the over run, just build the damn thing.


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    #165
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    _Brian wrote: »
    Considerably portion of me doesn’t care about the over run, just build the damn thing.

    I think that become part of many projects strategy. Make people so tired of it they'll accept anything anywhere. They give in effect. Giving up then is used as if its acceptance of a project.


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    #166
    thecomedian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭thecomedian


    smurgen wrote: »
    If your tendered amount is out by the final cost by over 50% it should end up in court

    You wouldn’t want to bring BAM to court!🙂


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    #167
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,079 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    The fallout from this is far reaching as other projects in other hospitals such as ward and bed rollouts are being postponed.
    Also the general HSE capital and spending budgets are getting chopped.

    And as sure as shyte the Connolly and Tallaght satellites that are being built for emergency treatment access will get chopped as well.


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    #168
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The Connolly was well advanced in the summer when I last passed by.


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    #169
    Tefral
    Registered Users Posts: 4,313 ✭✭✭Tefral


    smurgen wrote: »
    Did the design change include increasing the size of the hospital by 2.5 times the original size because that's probably the only way i would see the jump in cost of that magnitude being justified.also no coincidence it's BAM involved here. They same crowd who pulled a trick on the events centre in Cork.the turning of the soil on that site was 3 years ago and ever since they've being trying to hustle more money from the government and building has not started. Maybe they should be suspended from bidding on new projects.

    I dont know about Cork, but I do know their MO is to go in as low as possible and exploit weaknesses in the design. The thing is Contractors are in it for money and nothing else.

    If the designs were better and frozen there would be no changes to the contract because it would be impossible. I've seen first hand how sh1t drawings are from the design teams and these weaknesses cost money throughout the construction phase,


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    #170
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    it was concluded that to move St James' would be so prohibitively expensive and large in scale that it would take decades.

    This current project will turn out to be prohibitively expensive and will take decades to complete. It’s taken us 25 years to get this far ffs.

    Only difference is with your plan we’ll end up with a hospital that’s inaccessible to all but those that live close to Dublin city centre.

    Still though, at least the consultants don’t have to take a different route to work everyday.

    However given the cost to the taxpayer, i’d prefer it was a little bit more inclusive myself..


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    #171
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    €1.73 Billion.
    That is the new projected cost in a confidential memo given to Simon Harris, according to the Irish Times.
    Just in case that number doesn't sink in, it is €1,730,000,000.
    Even in Irish (corrupt) standards, it is a staggering number.
    Wonder how many millionaires will be made (or current millionaires made richer, more likely) after this fiasco runs its course.

    Due to the massive cost overrun, a number of substantial healthcare projects will have to be "curtailed" or even halted in order to contribute to the escalating costs of the new children's hospital.

    From the Irish Times:
    Ministers were given a list of projects, including a €10 million development of extra hospital beds in Limerick, a €56 million investment in 90 long-term residential care facilities for older people in 11 counties and primary care centres in Clondalkin, Sligo and Monaghan that could be affected by the need to fund cost overruns at the new hospital.
    And it doesn't stop there:
    Other projects that may be shelved include the development of accommodation in the community for people with disabilities moving out of institutions, new laboratories and theatres at the Coombe hospital, and a planned €3.4 million investment in paediatric and blood services.

    It also suggested the second cath lab at Waterford General Hospital and planned new emergency department and cystic fibrosis facilities at Beaumont Hospital in Dublin could be affected.
    As much as I hate the current structure of the EU, they need to step in and stop this lunacy from progressing further.
    A lot of us have been around long enough to know that the final bill for the new hospital could reach €2 Billion. Why? Because it is such a nice round number ......... to siphon from.

    Good reporting from the Irish Times.


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    #172
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    Kivaro wrote: »
    As much as I hate the current structure of the EU, they need to step in and stop this lunacy from progressing further.
    A lot of us have been around long enough to know that the final bill for the new hospital could reach €2 Billion. Why? Because it is such a nice round number ......... to siphon from.

    Agreed on all counts..

    The final figure will be much greater then anything they're currently projecting.

    And as much as I despise the EU, we have shown ourselves, time and time again, to be utterly incapable of managing our own affairs.

    I don't know what the answer to that is but the EU is pretty much all we've got for now.


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    #173
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Obviously it's a sensitive topic but how big of a difference is this hospital supposed to make? How many sick kids is it actually going to make a difference to? And how will it make that difference more efficiently than spending the money in other ways? FFS we could fly a few hundred specialists and their equipment in and put them up in lovely houses and pay them handsomely. It's a vast, ridiculous amount of money.


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    #174
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,283 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Obviously it's a sensitive topic but how big of a difference is this hospital supposed to make? How many sick kids is it actually going to make a difference to? And how will it make that difference more efficiently than spending the money in other ways? FFS we could fly a few hundred specialists and their equipment in and put them up in lovely houses and pay them handsomely. It's a vast, ridiculous amount of money.

    In fairness it’s much needed the two children’s hospitals are very old and need replacing or complete overhauls. They could be done up cheaper but they can’t really be expanded. More space is needed for beds and new technologies. I’ve been to our lady’s a few times over the years and there is a lot of queuing in corridors going on, it’s just too small for what’s in it now.


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    #175
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    salmocab wrote: »
    In fairness it’s much needed the two children’s hospitals are very old and need replacing or complete overhauls. They could be done up cheaper but they can’t really be expanded. More space is needed for beds and new technologies. I’ve been to our lady’s a few times over the years and there is a lot of queuing in corridors going on, it’s just too small for what’s in it now.

    I haven’t seen anyone suggest the new hospital isn’t needed.

    But we’re spending €2 billion plus on a hospital with major access issues that will bring misery to those that need it most.

    Not to mention the extra and unnecessary cost in bulding on the site of a working hospital in the middle of a congested city.


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    #176
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,283 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Rennaws wrote: »
    I haven’t seen anyone suggest the new hospital isn’t needed.
    .

    The post I quoted was effectively asking if it was necessary


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    #177
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    They are idiots

    1 put hospital in city location which inflates costs
    2 have it on a site owned by religious order
    3 try to make hospital paperless, which hasn't been achieved anywhere in thge world btw

    A friend of mine who worked in IT in crumlin 10 years ago said they were going to try this and that it would be pie in the sky


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    #178
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    salmocab wrote: »
    The post I quoted was effectively asking if it was necessary

    I meant more why is this plan the be all and end all.


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    #179
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    That was the main problem with Temple Street. Very old, poorly laid out, no room to expand and no parking. Moving it to Mater had similar issues, so they moved it to James which also has the same issues.

    All of this would be obvious if you've ever used these places.

    So if the locations don't fix some of the core issues of the existing locations. Then there be must be some other reason for the locations being chosen.

    At this point it so far along it can't be stopped. I hope the politicians who caused this are remembered for what they created here.


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    #180
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,283 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I meant more why is this plan the be all and end all.

    Well the move needs to happen and can’t be delayed much more. It’s almost certainly not the optimum long term plan but it’s committed to now and looks like it will happen despite many reasons it shouldn’t but the medical reasons for doing it outweigh the financial not to atvthis stage.


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    #181
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    It seems the financial ones may have a huge negative impact not only on this one but a lot of other projects. It might eat itself.


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