Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

Muckyboots · 16-09-2020 5:05pm

westtip wrote: »

Sean Canney a mate of Lord Ross . .

Not true at the heel of the hunt. Remember, Sean lost by a unanimious decision of the judges when the Boxer challenged and he left the party early only to come back to Gov as a non AI independent . Sean said on GBFM that he "would be the last person in the country to see the report". Anyway water under the bridge for all parties at this stage. So many intended and unintended puns in there, I've lost count.

westtip · 16-09-2020 10:35pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

Not true at the heel of the hunt. Remember, Sean lost by a unanimious decision of the judges when the Boxer challenged and he left the party early only to come back to Gov as a non AI independent . Sean said on GBFM that he "would be the last person in the country to see the report". Anyway water under the bridge for all parties at this stage. So many intended and unintended puns in there, I've lost count.

Yes indeed not given that one much thought the way SC was dropped on from a great height, still no real sympathy for him. Perhaps he hasn't seen the report. I don't know but its fun speculating. I think we will see it soon, anyone got a copy of the full Connaught Herald article?

17-09-2020 9:37am

Any predictions?
Rail is viable, rail isn't viable, fudge.

I vote fudge.

Muckyboots · 17-09-2020 10:07am

Deleted User wrote: »

Any predictions?
Rail is viable, rail isn't viable, fudge.

I vote fudge.

I vote "Rail isn't viable.....but followed by, "I am a Green Minister for Transport and carbon emissions won't decrese and climate change won't be stopped if we use viability as a qualifier". He should have thrown the report in the bin and just get on with his promise of rolling out a national interconnected greenway network. Open rails services where they are needed.

eastwest · 17-09-2020 10:26am

Muckyboots wrote: »

I vote "Rail isn't viable.....but followed by, "I am a Green Minister for Transport and carbon emissions won't decrese and climate change won't be stopped if we use viability as a qualifier". He should have thrown the report in the bin and just get on with his promise of rolling out a national interconnected greenway network. Open rails services where they are needed.

I agree.
Although it has been kept under very close wraps, the essential content of the rail report has been fairly well leaked since it was delivered nearly a year ago, and it is clear that the original draft at least found no case for rail, but that's not the point.
Almost all decisions like this made by governments are made to suit local TDs, and TDs from the current government sit on both sides of this debate. Therefore the outcome will be a fudge, full of aspirational nonsense about railways running everywhere and other guff about national greenway networks and an unprecedented level of greenway funding. The minister's summary will give comfort to all TDs, enough for them to go back to their constituents with the "better times a-coming" story that always works well.
The net result, as always, will be that east Galway and East Mayo get nothing, except vague promises and sufficient wording in the final report to allow anti-greenway councils to block any talk of same for another decade.
Remember, we were never getting a railway, and this rail report was designed to block not only the greenway on the ground but also the clamour for a greenway from thousands of people. In that, it will have succeeded very well.

Pete_Cavan · 17-09-2020 8:49pm

I'd say what is most likely is that the report states something like the railway isn't viable but if you look really far into the future and squint really hard, maybe it could be an option, you never know! The net result being the Greenway is resisted and the line continues to rot for another generation. Some will even consider that to be progress.

westtip · 17-09-2020 8:55pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I'd say what is most likely is that the report states something like the railway isn't viable but if you look really far into the future and squint really hard, maybe it could be an option, you never know! The net result being the Greenway is resisted and the line continues to rot for another generation. Some will even consider that to be progress.

You got it in one.....however. here is a thought, I genuinely believe Eamon Ryan sees the national cycle network as his legacy, he is nuts about greenways and he has a budget to make it happen. The fact he sanctioned the 75k feasibility study for the QMG was a straw in the wind that West on Track did not want to see, I really believe there is hope. Remember the department mandarins support a greenway - the first draft national greenway strategy proved this to be the case, the route was selected as a long distance greenway route, Eamon Ryan is a pragmatist and very shrewd operator and as I said like any politician know a legacy opportunity, he may not be a fudge operator. All I would say is watch this space.

Del.Monte · 19-09-2020 6:39pm

Good news? https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/19/mayo-expectant-over-rail-corridor-delivery/?fbclid=IwAR3DM2ZOky8ej_1cB3vRvlnt5nO6CN80m1n7Cv5MB70KjhJR8SaTVL2vOUg

eastwest · 19-09-2020 7:06pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Good news? https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/19/mayo-expectant-over-rail-corridor-delivery/?fbclid=IwAR3DM2ZOky8ej_1cB3vRvlnt5nO6CN80m1n7Cv5MB70KjhJR8SaTVL2vOUg

Great piece.
Should have started with 'once upon a time' though.

Muckyboots · 19-09-2020 8:37pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Good news? https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/19/mayo-expectant-over-rail-corridor-delivery/?fbclid=IwAR3DM2ZOky8ej_1cB3vRvlnt5nO6CN80m1n7Cv5MB70KjhJR8SaTVL2vOUg

What is the benefit of connecting international airports by rail? Is it so people from the UK can fly into Knock but return via Shannon, therefore avoiding the development charge ?

westtip · 19-09-2020 9:28pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Good news? https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/19/mayo-expectant-over-rail-corridor-delivery/?fbclid=IwAR3DM2ZOky8ej_1cB3vRvlnt5nO6CN80m1n7Cv5MB70KjhJR8SaTVL2vOUg

The good news is the rail report will finally be published, the twist in the tale is that if this rubbish is to be believed a huge great fudge is on the way.

eastwest · 20-09-2020 9:00am

Muckyboots wrote: »

What is the benefit of connecting international airports by rail? Is it so people from the UK can fly into Knock but return via Shannon, therefore avoiding the development charge ?

Would it be because they have the LUAS up in Dublin, maybe?

westtip · 20-09-2020 9:43am

Muckyboots wrote: »

What is the benefit of connecting international airports by rail? Is it so people from the UK can fly into Knock but return via Shannon, therefore avoiding the development charge ?

Here is the connection they refer to: Get a shuttle bus from Shannon to Ennis, get the train from Ennis to Athenry, as these trains go on to Galway......change at Athenry for a Galway Claremorris train, get off at Claremorris, because by the way the train is not going north of Claremorris. then get the Dublin - Westport train to Manulla junction, taxi might be best from there to Knock Airport. As this journey may take a few days, the short break in the west of ireland will be over - fly home., Or vice versa to avoid the knock development charge.

seekers · 21-09-2020 12:46pm

Is there talk of an announcement in the autumn on this line reopening?

eastwest · 21-09-2020 1:35pm

seekers wrote: »

Is there talk of an announcement in the autumn on this line reopening?

Any day now, I'd say.
;-) ;-)

Del.Monte · 21-09-2020 2:56pm

eastwest wrote: »

Any day now, I'd say.
;-) ;-)

Right through to Letterkenny by the end of next year I heard.

eastwest · 21-09-2020 3:16pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Right through to Letterkenny by the end of next year I heard.

Oh, I didn't know there was a delay in the project.

21-09-2020 5:22pm

eastwest wrote: »

Oh, I didn't know there was a delay in the project.

the training for the maglev system is taking a bit longer

westtip · 21-09-2020 9:26pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Right through to Letterkenny by the end of next year I heard.

I heard the western arc/atlantic economic corridor means the tunnel ffrom Malin Head to Skye has got the go ahead, to come in line with Scottish independence and EU funding to link Scotland with EU directly

Makes sense.:D:D:D

devnull · 21-09-2020 11:16pm

Less of the thinly veiled digs for trolling purposes please.

It's not big and it's not clever and we know what you're up to.

- Moderator

eastwest · 24-09-2020 11:49am

Anyone who watched the Dail TV this morning will now understand the end game in this debate, an outcome I have often predicted. The west is again getting nothing, but that will be dressed up in a pile of reports, the likes of which we have never seen.
Eamon Ryan clearly knows little of what goes on west of the Shannon, his answers to Dara Callearey in the Dail chamber today were straight from the WOT phrasebook, all about freight on the WRC. It is clear that he hasn't read the WDC report that contradicts all that with facts, but Ryan is inspired by some higher power obviously. Yesterday he told the Dail that the rail report is being reviewed by another consultancy company, after which the review of the review will be reviewed by Eamon Ryan, who has his mind made up about freight volumes in the west according to his impassioned speech this morning, with his new transport expert friend Eamon O'Cuiv looking very pleased in the background.
So, here's what will happen. The review will be reviewed, then the Minister will review the review and find that all those experts have got it wrong. A plan will be put in place to build a railway from Foynes to some vague place called the north west, to carry some vague freight stuff that doesn't yet exist. For the next four years while the Greens have their presence in government, it will be all about freight, with the officials in DTTAS holding the line against more mad spending. In other words, nothing will be built, not a railway, not a greenway, and probably no further improvements in the N17 in case that might impact on the railway that isn't coming, but just might if we win the lotto.
But there will be reports, lots of reports, and for that we should be grateful.

Muckyboots · 24-09-2020 12:04pm

eastwest wrote: »

Anyone who watched the Dail TV this morning will now understand the end game in this debate, an outcome I have often predicted. The west is again getting nothing, but that will be dressed up in a pile of reports, the likes of which we have never seen.
Eamon Ryan clearly knows little of what goes on west of the Shannon, his answers to Dara Callearey in the Dail chamber today were straight from the WOT phrasebook, all about freight on the WRC. It is clear that he hasn't read the WDC report that contradicts all that with facts, but Ryan is inspired by some higher power obviously. Yesterday he told the Dail that the rail report is being reviewed by another consultancy company, after which the review of the review will be reviewed by Eamon Ryan, who has his mind made up about freight volumes in the west according to his impassioned speech this morning, with his new transport expert friend Eamon O'Cuiv looking very pleased in the background.
So, here's what will happen. The review will be reviewed, then the Minister will review the review and find that all those experts have got it wrong. A plan will be put in place to build a railway from Foynes to some vague place called the north west, to carry some vague freight stuff that doesn't yet exist. For the next four years while the Greens have their presence in government, it will be all about freight, with the officials in DTTAS holding the line against more mad spending. In other words, nothing will be built, not a railway, not a greenway, and probably no further improvements in the N17 in case that might impact on the railway that isn't coming, but just might if we win the lotto.
But there will be reports, lots of reports, and for that we should be grateful.

Eamon Ryan is a Green Minister for Transport. Idealist. Big picture guy. Not fiscally retrained. Planetary outlook and committed to meeting carbon emmision targets. Why would anyone be surprised he would speak in favour of rail? The question is, given all these attributes, can he be convinced to incorporated a cycle network into the plans while project rail either progresses or stagnates? I personally think he can.

eastwest · 24-09-2020 12:27pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

Eamon Ryan is a Green Minister for Transport. Idealist. Big picture guy. Not fiscally retrained. Planetary outlook and committed to meeting carbon emmision targets. Why would anyone be surprised he would speak in favour of rail? The question is, given all these attributes, can he be convinced to incorporated a cycle network into the plans while project rail either progresses or stagnates? I personally think he can.

He won't get the money for it, but that's not the point. Very few councillors in galway or mayo will now vote for any greenway project on this route, because they will believe that railway nonsense. What he has done is to put the brakes on the greenway project for another decade, while doing nothing for rail either. He can walk away and say he is all in favour of public transport, but the reality is that in this case he has just introduced another stalemate situation.
This is one of the longest running threads on Boards.ie, and in another ten years it will still be running, with nothing changed on the ground. It would be great if by some magic they got money for a railway, and actually built it and put a greenway alongside it, but that can't happen because there is no possibility of funding it from any source.
But at least the Dublin 4 types will have to find another playground, so that's some consolation.

ShaneC1600 · 24-09-2020 12:49pm

eastwest wrote: »

Anyone who watched the Dail TV this morning will now understand the end game in this debate, an outcome I have often predicted. The west is again getting nothing, but that will be dressed up in a pile of reports, the likes of which we have never seen.
Eamon Ryan clearly knows little of what goes on west of the Shannon, his answers to Dara Callearey in the Dail chamber today were straight from the WOT phrasebook, all about freight on the WRC. It is clear that he hasn't read the WDC report that contradicts all that with facts, but Ryan is inspired by some higher power obviously.

Which WDC report are you referring to here? I remember reading some reports from the WDC over the years that concluded there was merit in improving the rail network for the benefit of freight in the west. Could be a long time ago though.

The terms of reference for the rail review did state the report would be reviewed prior to publication so nothing new there.

westtip · 24-09-2020 3:04pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Which WDC report are you referring to here? .

The WDC commissioned the report into Rail Freight and the Western Region in March of 2015at a cost of €17,000. The report was produced by a UK based rail consultant Intermodality which has been involved in several rail freight projects in the UK. The report was released on the WDC.ie website on 17th December 2015, sorry but I cannot find a link to the report now but search www.wdc.ie

The report focused on two levels of Forecast on future freight volumes: Realistic and Speculative

The report highlighted the number of freight trains per day going in and out of the West of Ireland at about 4 per day (4.3.17 page 46, 2 inbound trains 2 outbound), which is hardly enough to justify new railway lines.

The report did what it called extensive “bottom up” analysis involvung trade research with industry in the region showed that there is potential for about another 2 freight trains per day in and out of the region. The report also covers what is called “speculative freight increase” to a level of 10-14 freight trains a day by 2050. It was the kind of speculation that has to be taken for what it is, pure speculation, there is no realistic reason to accept that rail freight to and from the West of Ireland is going to increase fourfold anytime in the near to medium future.

There was concern that this speculation may lead to optimism from those who still believe in the Western Rail Corridor concept; It seems Minister Ryan is a believer in fairytale speculation.

blackwhite · 24-09-2020 3:25pm

westtip wrote: »

The WDC commissioned the report into Rail Freight and the Western Region in March of 2015at a cost of €17,000. The report was produced by a UK based rail consultant Intermodality which has been involved in several rail freight projects in the UK. The report was released on the WDC.ie website on 17th December 2015, sorry but I cannot find a link to the report now but search www.wdc.ie

The report focused on two levels of Forecast on future freight volumes: Realistic and Speculative

The report highlighted the number of freight trains per day going in and out of the West of Ireland at about 4 per day (4.3.17 page 46, 2 inbound trains 2 outbound), which is hardly enough to justify new railway lines.

The report did what it called extensive “bottom up” analysis involvung trade research with industry in the region showed that there is potential for about another 2 freight trains per day in and out of the region. The report also covers what is called “speculative freight increase” to a level of 10-14 freight trains a day by 2050. It was the kind of speculation that has to be taken for what it is, pure speculation, there is no realistic reason to accept that rail freight to and from the West of Ireland is going to increase fourfold anytime in the near to medium future.

There was concern that this speculation may lead to optimism from those who still believe in the Western Rail Corridor concept; It seems Minister Ryan is a believer in fairytale speculation.

Dublin Port - the busiest port in the country and the best connected to the rail network (spur to the port only 2km from mainlines) - never manages to break 30 trains per week. Over half the trains are Tara Mines.

IWT bring rail-freight from the West to Dublin already.

Nearly all sea-freight from Ireland travels east - to either the UK or to Europe. It is faster and cheaper to sail a cargo vessel from Dublin to either the UK or the Continent than it is to sail the same vessel from Limerick. We already have the rail connections to Dublin - so if the demand for rail-frieght was really there, then it would be already pushing for more volumes on the IWT services to Dublin.

Rail Freight for purely within Ireland simply doesn't stack up from an efficiency point of view, as the country is simply too small. The rail journeys aren't of sufficient distances to generate the efficiencies needed to justify rail.

marno21 · 24-09-2020 10:28pm

From Eamon Ryan:

With regard to the western rail corridor study, I will be answering questions on the same issue tomorrow during priority and oral questions. I hope that we can publish that report shortly. I am waiting for a further report from JASPERS, an international organisation which is reviewing the review and I am reviewing it myself in a slightly wider context. In a series of meetings that I have had with people interested in the project I referred to the fact that if we just look at this in the context of a section of rail line between Claremorris and Athenry, that is a relatively narrative focus. One has to look at a slightly wider focus as to what is the economic potential for development of the west and north-west of the country and the infrastructure that would best suit that purpose. It is not just to my mind a question of whether we need a commuter rail service between Tuam or Claremorris into Galway city or to Athenry. The real consideration is a slightly wider one with regard to the economic development of the whole north-west region and what infrastructure may support that.

Included in that, I am particularly interested in what the potential is for rail freight developments in the western region and if we are looking at a changed policy as to promoting rather than restricting rail freight, which I think has been the case for the last 30 or 40 years. I cannot go into the details of that here now but I look forward to engaging with the Deputy. My focus at the moment is looking at that aspect of it and looking at it in a wider regional context, as well as looking at the content of the two reports he mentioned.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2020-09-23a.271

westtip · 24-09-2020 10:59pm

Two trains a day max. Lets build a new railway line to cope with the demand! After all these years I have to say I am tempted to say let them get on with it.

L1011 · 24-09-2020 11:45pm

You can read Ryan's response there as: the report has shown that passenger traffic is completely unviable, but I'm scrabbling to try put a spin on it to keep the issue alive.

Diverted freight flows will never make a case for reopening at the exchequers expense.

Pete_Cavan · 25-09-2020 7:03am

marno21 wrote: »

From Eamon Ryan:

In a series of meetings that I have had with people interested in the project I referred to the fact that if we just look at this in the context of a section of rail line between Claremorris and Athenry, that is a relatively narrative focus. One has to look at a slightly wider focus as to what is the economic potential for development of the west and north-west of the country and the infrastructure that would best suit that purpose. It is not just to my mind a question of whether we need a commuter rail service between Tuam or Claremorris into Galway city or to Athenry. The real consideration is a slightly wider one with regard to the economic development of the whole north-west region and what infrastructure may support that.

Included in that, I am particularly interested in what the potential is for rail freight developments in the western region and if we are looking at a changed policy as to promoting rather than restricting rail freight, which I think has been the case for the last 30 or 40 years.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2020-09-23a.271

What a load of crap. Freight is/should have been considered in the report, it is clearly mentioned in the PPQ document and therefore should be within the terms of reference for the report;

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_docs.asp?PID=136152&LID=150224&AllowPrint=1

These services will involve the undertaking of an appraisal and the appraisal must ensure that all relevant appraisal processes and value-for-money tests required under the PSC and CAF are fully complied with. Given that the level of investment involved in the WRC proposal will exceed €20 million in total cost, the Consultant will be required to complete the following tasks as part of the preliminary and detailed appraisal stages and as part of the preparation of the Business Case for the proposed project.
Stage 1 - Preliminary Appraisal
Stage 2 - Detailed Appraisal (incorporating Appraisal Plan & Assumptions, Demand Projections for Passenger & Freight, Quantified Impacts, Qualitative Impacts etc.)

It looks already like the report is being discredited by certain people, presumably because it doesn't say what they wanted it to say. I wonder who these "people interested in the project" are Ryan has been meeting with and if there are any records from these meetings. Wouldn't be hard to sell him a bag of magic beans on this project, tell him there will be salad growing from window boxes on the train too!

We don't need another report to tell us that spending €150m to create an alternative route for freight trains which already have an operational route is a waste of money. Plough some of that money into strategic parts of the existing network if you want to improve the freight offering.

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

Comments